Answer to Laughing Oaf: Why Moz circa 2002 ceased to be relevant, unlike Lou Reed and Eminem etc...

[Fox in the Snow]

> Wait, this thread has me f***ing confused, dude.
I just wanted to start a discussion about Moz circa 2002 irrelevance in comparison with other bards, intellectual literary singers-songwriters like Lou Reed, Tom Waits, Ani DiFranco, Tori Amos, Elliot Smith... Lou Reed was just an RANDOM example to verify my thesis, I just took 3 of his random live song-rants, recorded at Kansas City, NYC club around 1977 (Take NO Prisoners CD):

one about artist versus modern society (Walk on the Wild Side live),
another about racism of whites & white guilt (I wonna be Black),
another one about gay man falling in love with a straight guy, whrer Lou Reed openly talks about his it. (Coney Island Babe)

And Lou Reed circa 1977 sounds FOR ME way more contemporary and relevant to me then Moz circa 2002!

> Well, Morrissey out there promoting PETA, playing "Meat Is
> Murder," and calling for boycotts of Elephant abusing countries.
Exactly my point!!!
While really relevant and up-to-day artists like Ani DiFranco, Elliot Smith, Eminem, even Lou Reed circa 2000 (Exstacy album) et cetera et cetera are dealing with real economic and political, moral and philosophycal issues of the day, Mozzer is worrying about 'lil kitties and doggies... C'mon, PETA is just another nauseatingly Politically Correct white affluent eco-liberal guilt trip... As I said before, Moz is worried about elephants, but what about thousands Thais, who would become unemployed if world would take for its face value Mozzer cry to "boycott" Thai tourist industry... Luckily, Mozzer activism is no different from elephant farting in the wind, just another liberal caring about Thai animals, indifferent to the plight of Thai exploited children and Thai AIDS victims or Cambodgian refugees, or Russian victims of Chechen terrorism etc... OK, Moz song Mexico is VAGUELY political, but I'm telling you, bands like MANA or JAGUARES are zillion times more relevant and up-to-date for Mexican politically-minded listener... But again, Moz is primary a lyrical artist, an escapist... Yet, his LATEST body of work is beautiful, yet strangely politically irrelevant... Yes, I'm glad he is around, yet... His silence about any political issue of the day, except animal-rights, be it war or peace or gay rights, or women issues, that silence make Moz, essentially, a nostalgic act, something like Wayne Newton... Well, Moz even played Las Vegas recently... :-(

P.S. To all peoples (especially Suzanne), who think Lou Reed circa 2002 is a drug-abuse-riddled nutcase... nothing could be further from the truth! For somebody who cares, please give a try to 2 last brilliant solo Lou Reed albums: Set The Twilight Reeling (1994) and Exstacy (2000). Just listen to the lyrics and lively, country & alternative-twang bare-bones r'and'b sound of Lou guitar, and then judge old chap Lou... Don't dismiss peoples you don't know a shit abut!

 

[suzanne]

Re: Answer to Laughing Oaf: Why Moz circa 2002 ceased to be relevant, unlike Lou Reed and Eminem etc

> P.S. To all peoples (especially Suzanne), who think Lou Reed circa 2002 is
> a drug-abuse-riddled nutcase... nothing could be further from the truth!
> For somebody who cares, please give a try to 2 last brilliant solo Lou
> Reed albums: Set The Twilight Reeling (1994) and Exstacy (2000). Just
> listen to the lyrics and lively, country & alternative-twang
> bare-bones r'and'b sound of Lou guitar, and then judge old chap Lou...
> Don't dismiss peoples you don't know a shit abut!

i'm sorry man, but to me relevance is defined by the idea that anyone cares if someone is still alive or not. what good is a message if 3 people buy your album? you're already preaching to the converted, not to mention that the same group who runs out and buys a Lou Reed album is still that same concordance of white, educated liberals that you are pooh-poohing as being in PETA.

I certainly don't know any rednecks who own a Lou Reed album. How about black people? Or why not show up to one of his concerts and do a head count of ethnicity and class background shows up, and how many of those people are going to have their lives profoundly changed enough by his stance and the lyrics to be activists themselves in "worthy" causes. all they are there to do is observe a "indie genius" in his environment. he's like a scientific study. someone that you tell other people that you saw and impress your other indie friends. and maybe a couple of critics still rate him, but you know how it is with the emporer's new clothing. if you can't see it, your days might be numbered.

in the end, why you don't see anyone of any other persuasion in his audience is because they obviously don't believe he is a voice of their plight.

morrissey, on the otherhand, can show up to mexico city and have 10,000 people show up without having written a single teary eyed "you poor mexicans, i feel your plight!"

well, of course, now he's written one, but that's beside the point.

the point is that he didn't have to beg for that audience. and considering that whenever I go to a club like Emo's which is the indie kid hangout, and see almost no black or hispanic people there for any band i've ever seen grace the stage, and this is in a city with a giant hispanic population, morrissey achieved something Lou Reed will never be able to do.

yeah, lou put out a couple of good albums after he broke up with the velvet underground, but he hasn't really been worthy anything since.
by the way, i can also go to any coffeeshop any night of the week and hear songs about homeless people, would you say any of them are worthy of a listen?
I'll be a snob and say that i don't mind if someone is political, but i just don't like songs that beat you over the head with it. To me, its discourse. it makes good interviews and books and documentaries, but its hard to dance to.
sometimes it works. but its rare.

and there is nothing wrong with animal activism. i know there are issues that rank high on your list, but the good thing about this world is that we need people to care about different things. There are 6 billion of us. Surely, we can spare a couple of people to care about animals, as i don't think moz is qualified enough to fly out to africa with medical kits and do anything about it.

 

[Fox in the Snow]

The Harsh Truth For The Camera Eye... or Lou versus Moz

> i'm sorry man, but to me relevance is defined by the idea that anyone
> cares if someone is still alive or not. what good is a message if 3 people
> buy your album? you're already preaching to the converted, not to mention
> that the same group who runs out and buys a Lou Reed album is still that
> same concordance of white, educated liberals that you are pooh-poohing as
> being in PETA.
Well good point, you got me, babe... Here, at USA Lou is restricted to 40 y-o + gays, white East coasters and rock'n'roll olde-tymers...
Indeed, his audience at 2000 was white 30-y-o + liberals... ;-) ;-) ;-)

However, according to numerous documented accounts of eyewitnesses in Europe (at France, Germany, Italy, much less England), AS WELL AS EUROPEAN SALES FIGURES, Lou Reed was and is WAY MORE POPULAR IN EUROPE then here... At 70s and 80s, Lou Reed played 50-thousand-capacity soccer stadiums filled with peoples of all walks of life at cities like Rome, Dusseldorf, Paris and Munich... At Italy, at his concerts progressives literally had a fistfight with anti-American Nazis, at Germany, police cordons encircled radical student fans at his shows (it was at 70s, time of all kind of riots and Red Brigades). He was arrested in Germany for presumed riot instigation, at France he was and is very hot commodity, with all French TV talk shows treating his as a figure of John Lennon or Mick Jagger scale, as he really is... Here, all Lou could get is 5-minute spot at Conan O'Brien show...

At 70s and 80s, Lou was extremely popular, often talked, discussed and critisized, praised and ostracized all over Europe... around 90% of his live audience ticket sales and record sales came from Europe at 70s and 80s, again mostly from Germans, French and Italians, some Brits and Scandinavians, plus Eastern European countries like Czechoslovakia (where Vazlav Havel, a dissident at 70s, became Lou Reed admirer) and Poland... So here is a paradox, in America Lou was an indie act even in his prime, in Europe, he played soccer stadiums, and was either object of admiration of the European Left and Gay Communities, or an object of derision and hate of European Right as an "American Jew Degenerate"...
For many hundreds of thousands in Europe, he represented either freedom or American Rot and Decadence, depending on political persuasion...

Not only in Europe, he is popular in Israel, he is big in Brazil and Argentina... For example, Brazilian singer Marisa Montes covered Lou Pale Blue Eyes Song... In Russia, Lou Reed creative portfolio gave a birth to many imitators, like highly political singer-songwriter Boris Grebenschikov (Aquarium band) from Saint Pitersburg, who was number one alternative band in Russia through all 80s and good half of 90s...

Speaking of Moz, he was always a cult figure abroad, he was briefly popular with Smiths in England 1984-1988... Then Viva Hate was successful, then... became a cult fogure... Even at Southern Cali, he is more a cult figure...

> I certainly don't know any rednecks who own a Lou Reed album. How about
> black people? Or why not show up to one of his concerts and do a head
> count of ethnicity and class background shows up, and how many of those
> people are going to have their lives profoundly changed enough by his
> stance and the lyrics to be activists themselves in "worthy"
> causes. all they are there to do is observe a "indie genius" in
> his environment. he's like a scientific study. someone that you tell other
> people that you saw and impress your other indie friends. and maybe a
> couple of critics still rate him, but you know how it is with the
> emperor's new clothing. if you can't see it, your days might be numbered.
I certainly don't know any rednecks who own a Steven Morrissey/Smiths album. How about black people?

Let's talk about Mozzer diversity and his universal appeal... at California 2002...
OK, last Moz concert at Yuma:
90% of audience: Mexicans or Mexican-Americans or other Latino peoples, like Peruvians or Ecuadorians...
9% white anglophiles... (including your humble servant)
.5% 2 black chicks
.5% our esteemed webmaster plus couple of odd Asian-American women...

Maybe it is time to call his tour not Oye Esteban, but Louis Miguel Impersonation Tour... Chuckle...
(Sorry, folks, today I'm at my bitchiest mood)

Yes, at least at California, Moz lost his white fan-ship (for WHATEVER REASONS), he became a cult figure among Latino high-school kids...
Not there is anything wrong about it, just a cold fact...

And yeah, Morrissey 2002 concert at San Diego (with Jaguarez)...
Spanish was spoken more often then English...

> morrissey, on the otherhand, can show up to mexico city and have 10,000
> people show up without having written a single teary eyed "you poor
> mexicans, i feel your plight!"
MANA and JAGUAREZ could make 100.000 people show up... Hey, I saw myself, when Mana played Chula Vista Coors Arena at San Diego, about 50000 peoples came... When Moz played by himself at 1999 at San Diego UCSD Sports Arena, it was half-empty... My case is stated...

Also, why do you think Latino peoples don't know or don't like about Lou Reed...?
Proof?

Well, speaking about feminism, Madonna is more popular at Latin America, then Moz... I'm sure feminist and women-rights and gay-rights Madonna, who is also happen to be "sleep your way to the top" commersialized mainstream slut-genius-bad singer-great innovator-great imitator (et cetera, et cetera), she would attract 200.000 Mexican City residents like THAT, by snapping her finger.

Sorry, just making fun of your logic, Suzanne!!!

> well, of course, now he's written one, but that's beside the point.
yeah, Mexico, what a hapless song... His second worst after Golden Lights, I presume...

> the point is that he didn't have to beg for that audience. and considering
> that whenever I go to a club like Emo's which is the indie kid hangout,
> and see almost no black or hispanic people there for any band i've ever
> seen grace the stage, and this is in a city with a giant hispanic
> population, morrissey achieved something Lou Reed will never be able to
> do.
Excuse me? Lou Reed is a catchword for any professional rocker, while word Morrissey for many is either an Irish soccer player or Andy Warhol buddy-movie producer Paul Morrissey....

Seriously, Lou Reed name could get almost 100% recognition, I doubt about Morrissey... We are cultists, cultists, cultists, almost like Applegate folks... We got obsessed with Smiths and let a many good music pass us by, damn us all! Light of Truth!!!(Hey, just kiddin’!!!!)

> yeah, lou put out a couple of good albums after he broke up with the
> velvet underground, but he hasn't really been worthy anything since.
> by the way, i can also go to any coffeeshop any night of the week and hear
> songs about homeless people, would you say any of them are worthy of a
> listen?
Well, once I bought Boston Beacon Street homeless a pizza and six-pack, and we went to park bench and had a feast.. No, this homeless was not a dirty crazy bum, actually he had master degree in Slavic literature at sixties, namely at Serbian and Bulgarian literature, however that guy had some pretty heavy mental conditions like paranoia, but at that day he was a great interlocutor...
In a week, I greeted him like an old buddy, but he gave me a look of a trapped animal and started shouting to me some expletives... Poor guy, he was crazy indeed... Next week he was more in political conspiracy mode, and explained me about CIA and FBI agents who are spying on him and by extension, me for talking with him, the scariest thing this guy talk was highly intelligent, he could write to New Yorker, if he wished....

My point is, the best solution for the homeless are not songs about them, but socialist-style medical program to help them, give them free roof over their head and medication, 'cause most of the homeless are mental... not that capitalist society can not make you crazy...

> I'll be a snob and say that i don't mind if someone is political, but i
> just don't like songs that beat you over the head with it. To me, its
> discourse. it makes good interviews and books and documentaries, but its
> hard to dance to.
> sometimes it works. but its rare.
Agree. Example: Rage Against Machine... Primitive Political Agitprop... Also stupid knee-jerking anti-America rants...

> and there is nothing wrong with animal activism. i know there are issues
> that rank high on your list, but the good thing about this world is that
> we need people to care about different things. There are 6 billion of us.
> Surely, we can spare a couple of people to care about animals, as i don't
> think moz is qualified enough to fly out to africa with medical kits and
> do anything about it.
Of course not! Nothing against animals welfare! I just sense that peoples at PETA are more into celebrities gala parties at fashionable Hollywood nite spots at Sunset Blvd, then into real actions... Anyway, improvement of the fate of animals is directly connected with political & economical situation in given country...
Example, for peoples from PETA animals come first: they would defend say African gazelle and crocodile from being eaten by Kenyan natives... They don't care, that people have to eat something, that they are overpopulated and malnourished, that they need more and more land for agriculture at the expense of gazelles and crocodiles because their extensive methods of horse-plowing the land...

PETA peoples would say good-natured banalities about love to animals... Intelligent peoples would suggest solutions for those poor African animal-eaters, something like:

Stable democratic government (or at least benign dictatorship), providing political stability in the country, which means no war, which means healthy agriculture, which means more intensive and effective agriculture with machines, fertilizers and less harmful chemicals, which means peoples would produce enough corn and wheat and production meat, which means less wild game killed by natives for food and less pollution... If one improves people social conditions (BIRTH CONTROL, HEALTHY AGRICULTURE, POLLUTION-CONTROL), then animal conditions would automatically improve...

Alas, example of the Western and even Eastern Europe shows, that ultimately overpopulation would drive wildlife almost to the point to extinction, so the only ultimate solution to the animal problems is rapid reduction of population which is perhaps unrealistic, so at least BIRTH CONTROL may help to save those reserves of wildlife humans managed not to destroy yet, but then we have religions like Islam and Catholicism, which are encouraging humans to reproduce... So, if PETA peoples are for real, they must stop liberal PC mumbo jumbo and start proclaiming the virtue of the Her Majesty Pill!

More up-to the point example… If Moz advice to boycott Thai tourism industry would be heeded, let’s assume, that elephant raiders would become unemployed, as well as hotel managers, clerks, cooks, travel agents in USA etc… First, entertainment elephants would be killed, obviously, no one would feed them and scoop their shit just for nothing, not to mention some Thai children would go to bed without dinner…, maybe some of them would even die from hunger… What a great humanist our Moz is!!! Oh no, he didn’t mean that, his talk of boycotting Thai is just another PC bull…

OK, Suzanne, I’m spend….
Sorry, if I’m being such aWagnerian gloomy bitch, I just had a major fallout with my loved one…

Oh well, I still LUV you, Suzanne, and, hell I LUV to argue with you, my dear… LOL

 

[LoafingOaf - The Official Online Stud]

Answer to Fox: Why Moz circa 2002 ceased to be relevant, unlike Lou Reed and Eminem etc...

> I just wanted to start a discussion about Moz circa 2002 irrelevance in
> comparison with other bards, intellectual literary singers-songwriters
> like Lou Reed, Tom Waits, Ani DiFranco, Tori Amos, Elliot Smith... Lou
> Reed was just an RANDOM example to verify my thesis, I just took 3 of his
> random live song-rants, recorded at Kansas City, NYC club around 1977
> (Take NO Prisoners CD):

You start some of the oddest threads, Fox! = )

Aren't all these artists you name, except Eminem, cult artists just like Moz?
Well, not JUST LIKE, cuz the Mozza is way better, but comparable situations.

I f***ing LOVE Tom Waits. Dislike Ani DiFRanco's music, but who cares.

And as to Eminem, for one, he's new, and for two, he's gotten the biggest push from the powers of the industry than anyone I can remember. MTV has turned over their entire channel to him on some days. But yeah, I suppose of those you list, he is the only one "more relevant," and "more up to date," musically and lyrically...but only if you're just talking about teenagers today. We're not all teenagers.

There's a parallel universe somewhere where The Smiths and Morrissey got all the airplay they deserved and became massive in the USA.

But just because that didn't happen, does it make him "irrelevant"? When thousands and thousands of people are so moved by his music?

> one about artist versus modern society (Walk on the Wild Side live),
> another about racism of whites & white guilt (I wonna be Black),
> another one about gay man falling in love with a straight guy, whrer Lou
> Reed openly talks about his it. (Coney Island Babe)

So what? Show me a set list of one of Morrissey's recent concerts and I'll point out how interesting every song is.

> And Lou Reed circa 1977 sounds FOR ME way more contemporary and relevant
> to me then Moz circa 2002!

So you happen to prefer Lou Reed of 1977 to Mozza of 2002. Big whoop.
This is you big "thesis"??

> Exactly my point!!!
> While really relevant and up-to-day artists

LOL

> like Ani DiFranco, Elliot
> Smith, Eminem, even Lou Reed circa 2000 (Exstacy album) et cetera et
> cetera are dealing with real economic and political, moral and
> philosophycal issues of the day, Mozzer is worrying about 'lil kitties and
> doggies...

Animal rights issues are TOTALLY "real economic and political, moral and philosophical issues of the day."

Why, there was yet another book released just recently - Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy by Matthew Scully - wherein a conservative/religious dude from the Bush White House grapples with these animal issues. Just the latest in a long line, going back to the intellectual pioneer in animal rights, Peter Singer. You should read some of these books before dismiss it all.

If you go into the science section of your library, you'll find people like science writer Richard Dawkins discussing speciesism, the treatment of the great apes, and animal rights here and there in his fascinating books on evolution.

Time magzine (or was it Newsweek?) recently had a big cover story on vegetarianism.

DNA advances are making it clear that we humans are animals too, and we share amazing amounts of the same chromosomal material with other animals. They are our fellow animals. Is it all "irrelevant"?

>C'mon, PETA is just another nauseatingly Politically Correct
> white affluent eco-liberal guilt trip... As I said before, Moz is worried
> about elephants, but what about thousands Thais, who would become
> unemployed if world would take for its face value Mozzer cry to
> "boycott" Thai tourist industry... Luckily, Mozzer activism is
> no different from elephant farting in the wind, just another liberal
> caring about Thai animals, indifferent to the plight of Thai exploited
> children and Thai AIDS victims or Cambodgian refugees, or Russian victims
> of Chechen terrorism etc...

Morrissey made it his pet issue 20 years ago, when he looked around and decided more people needed to be raising the issues of the truly voiceless - animals. It's a f***ing admirable thing, man. And he was ahead of his time. Still is.

And this notion I keep seeing on this board that because Morrissey cares about animals, he is "indifferent" to human problems is such rubbish. It seems to me that people who CARE and have COMPASSION in one area tend to also care and have compassion in other areas. Because they're caring and compassionate f***ing people in general. When I see some yahoo hunting redneck or some fur coat wearing dink, I don't think they're much concerned about anyone or anything.
When I see someone, like Morrissey, who in one memorable interview rescued a drawning wasp from a swimming pool, there's a man who probably has a heart of f***ing gold.

>OK, Moz song Mexico is VAGUELY political, but
> I'm telling you, bands like MANA or JAGUARES are zillion times more
> relevant and up-to-date for Mexican politically-minded listener...

This "relevant and up-to-date" phrase you keep using is so f***ing gay, man.

>But
> again, Moz is primary a lyrical artist, an escapist... Yet, his LATEST
> body of work is beautiful, yet strangely politically irrelevant... Yes,
> I'm glad he is around, yet... His silence about any political issue of the
> day, except animal-rights, be it war or peace or gay rights, or women
> issues, that silence make Moz, essentially, a nostalgic act, something
> like Wayne Newton... Well, Moz even played Las Vegas recently... :-(

His songs are about life. Pretty f***ing relevant to me.

You apparently want him to go down a list of the "hot" political topics of the hour. Which any f***ing moron can do. You don't need to be in Morrissey's political party to connect with him. You just need to be a person in this world.

> P.S. To all peoples (especially Suzanne), who think Lou Reed circa 2002 is
> a drug-abuse-riddled nutcase... nothing could be further from the truth!
> For somebody who cares, please give a try to 2 last brilliant solo Lou
> Reed albums: Set The Twilight Reeling (1994) and Exstacy (2000). Just
> listen to the lyrics and lively, country & alternative-twang
> bare-bones r'and'b sound of Lou guitar, and then judge old chap Lou...
> Don't dismiss peoples you don't know a shit abut!

 

[LoafingOaf - The Official Online Stud]

Re: Answer to Fox: Why Moz circa 2002 ceased to be relevant, unlike Lou Reed and Eminem etc...

Oops, I gotta put this on top......

 

[suzanne]

Re: The Harsh Truth For The Camera Eye... or Lou versus Moz

i just don't see why you are insisting on comparing two different men, who live in completely different countries, with different social backgrounds, and of completely different generations.

and i seriously doubt he is STILL more popular.

latest headline from the NME: "Lou Reed...he's still alive."

which, if you were comparing lou reed of today vs moz of today, at least that would be a starting place. but hinging an argument of Lou Reed's relevancy based on what he did back in 1974, before disco music came and went and came again, and when music and the scene was completely different, and comparing it to what morrissey is currently doing in the year 2002 long after punk had died, just really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

maybe lou reed was at one point relevant. no, he was. but his relevance dissipated once David Bowie said, "adios, muchachos". He hasn't put out any albums since that point that any sane person would be proud of owning. He's been kept alive and breathing because it gives a label credibility to have the supposed indie god on their label. I know of no person who owns a VU album and who currently enjoys listening to that album, who has also salivated, "hey, lou reed's got another album coming out!"

and i can tell you better about what lou's current audience is like better than you can. No high schooler runs around wearing a Lou Reed shirt.

> Well good point, you got me, babe... Here, at USA Lou is restricted to
> 40 y-o + gays, white East coasters and rock'n'roll olde-tymers...
> Indeed, his audience at 2000 was white 30-y-o + liberals... ;-) ;-) ;-)

> However, according to numerous documented accounts of eyewitnesses in
> Europe (at France, Germany, Italy, much less England), AS WELL AS EUROPEAN
> SALES FIGURES, Lou Reed was and is WAY MORE POPULAR IN EUROPE then here...
> At 70s and 80s, Lou Reed played 50-thousand-capacity soccer stadiums
> filled with peoples of all walks of life at cities like Rome, Dusseldorf,
> Paris and Munich... At Italy, at his concerts progressives literally had a
> fistfight with anti-American Nazis, at Germany, police cordons encircled
> radical student fans at his shows (it was at 70s, time of all kind of
> riots and Red Brigades). He was arrested in Germany for presumed riot
> instigation, at France he was and is very hot commodity, with all French
> TV talk shows treating his as a figure of John Lennon or Mick Jagger
> scale, as he really is... Here, all Lou could get is 5-minute spot at
> Conan O'Brien show...

> At 70s and 80s, Lou was extremely popular, often talked, discussed and
> critisized, praised and ostracized all over Europe... around 90% of his
> live audience ticket sales and record sales came from Europe at 70s and
> 80s, again mostly from Germans, French and Italians, some Brits and
> Scandinavians, plus Eastern European countries like Czechoslovakia (where
> Vazlav Havel, a dissident at 70s, became Lou Reed admirer) and Poland...
> So here is a paradox, in America Lou was an indie act even in his prime,
> in Europe, he played soccer stadiums, and was either object of admiration
> of the European Left and Gay Communities, or an object of derision and
> hate of European Right as an "American Jew Degenerate"...
> For many hundreds of thousands in Europe, he represented either freedom or
> American Rot and Decadence, depending on political persuasion...

> Not only in Europe, he is popular in Israel, he is big in Brazil and
> Argentina... For example, Brazilian singer Marisa Montes covered Lou Pale
> Blue Eyes Song... In Russia, Lou Reed creative portfolio gave a birth to
> many imitators, like highly political singer-songwriter Boris
> Grebenschikov (Aquarium band) from Saint Pitersburg, who was number one
> alternative band in Russia through all 80s and good half of 90s...

> Speaking of Moz, he was always a cult figure abroad, he was briefly
> popular with Smiths in England 1984-1988... Then Viva Hate was successful,
> then... became a cult fogure... Even at Southern Cali, he is more a cult
> figure...
> I certainly don't know any rednecks who own a Steven Morrissey/Smiths
> album. How about black people?

> Let's talk about Mozzer diversity and his universal appeal... at
> California 2002...
> OK, last Moz concert at Yuma:
> 90% of audience: Mexicans or Mexican-Americans or other Latino peoples,
> like Peruvians or Ecuadorians...
> 9% white anglophiles... (including your humble servant)
> .5% 2 black chicks
> .5% our esteemed webmaster plus couple of odd Asian-American women...

> Maybe it is time to call his tour not Oye Esteban, but Louis Miguel
> Impersonation Tour... Chuckle...
> (Sorry, folks, today I'm at my bitchiest mood)

> Yes, at least at California, Moz lost his white fan-ship (for WHATEVER
> REASONS), he became a cult figure among Latino high-school kids...
> Not there is anything wrong about it, just a cold fact...

> And yeah, Morrissey 2002 concert at San Diego (with Jaguarez)...
> Spanish was spoken more often then English...
> MANA and JAGUAREZ could make 100.000 people show up... Hey, I saw myself,
> when Mana played Chula Vista Coors Arena at San Diego, about 50000 peoples
> came... When Moz played by himself at 1999 at San Diego UCSD Sports Arena,
> it was half-empty... My case is stated...

> Also, why do you think Latino peoples don't know or don't like about Lou
> Reed...?
> Proof?

> Well, speaking about feminism, Madonna is more popular at Latin America,
> then Moz... I'm sure feminist and women-rights and gay-rights Madonna, who
> is also happen to be "sleep your way to the top" commersialized
> mainstream slut-genius-bad singer-great innovator-great imitator (et
> cetera, et cetera), she would attract 200.000 Mexican City residents like
> THAT, by snapping her finger.

> Sorry, just making fun of your logic, Suzanne!!!
> yeah, Mexico, what a hapless song... His second worst after Golden Lights,
> I presume...
> Excuse me? Lou Reed is a catchword for any professional rocker, while word
> Morrissey for many is either an Irish soccer player or Andy Warhol
> buddy-movie producer Paul Morrissey....

> Seriously, Lou Reed name could get almost 100% recognition, I doubt about
> Morrissey... We are cultists, cultists, cultists, almost like Applegate
> folks... We got obsessed with Smiths and let a many good music pass us by,
> damn us all! Light of Truth!!!(Hey, just kiddin’!!!!)
> Well, once I bought Boston Beacon Street homeless a pizza and six-pack,
> and we went to park bench and had a feast.. No, this homeless was not a
> dirty crazy bum, actually he had master degree in Slavic literature at
> sixties, namely at Serbian and Bulgarian literature, however that guy had
> some pretty heavy mental conditions like paranoia, but at that day he was
> a great interlocutor...
> In a week, I greeted him like an old buddy, but he gave me a look of a
> trapped animal and started shouting to me some expletives... Poor guy, he
> was crazy indeed... Next week he was more in political conspiracy mode,
> and explained me about CIA and FBI agents who are spying on him and by
> extension, me for talking with him, the scariest thing this guy talk was
> highly intelligent, he could write to New Yorker, if he wished....

> My point is, the best solution for the homeless are not songs about them,
> but socialist-style medical program to help them, give them free roof over
> their head and medication, 'cause most of the homeless are mental... not
> that capitalist society can not make you crazy...
> Agree. Example: Rage Against Machine... Primitive Political Agitprop...
> Also stupid knee-jerking anti-America rants...
> Of course not! Nothing against animals welfare! I just sense that peoples
> at PETA are more into celebrities gala parties at fashionable Hollywood
> nite spots at Sunset Blvd, then into real actions... Anyway, improvement
> of the fate of animals is directly connected with political &
> economical situation in given country...
> Example, for peoples from PETA animals come first: they would defend say
> African gazelle and crocodile from being eaten by Kenyan natives... They
> don't care, that people have to eat something, that they are overpopulated
> and malnourished, that they need more and more land for agriculture at the
> expense of gazelles and crocodiles because their extensive methods of
> horse-plowing the land...

> PETA peoples would say good-natured banalities about love to animals...
> Intelligent peoples would suggest solutions for those poor African
> animal-eaters, something like:

> Stable democratic government (or at least benign dictatorship), providing
> political stability in the country, which means no war, which means
> healthy agriculture, which means more intensive and effective agriculture
> with machines, fertilizers and less harmful chemicals, which means peoples
> would produce enough corn and wheat and production meat, which means less
> wild game killed by natives for food and less pollution... If one improves
> people social conditions (BIRTH CONTROL, HEALTHY AGRICULTURE,
> POLLUTION-CONTROL), then animal conditions would automatically improve...

> Alas, example of the Western and even Eastern Europe shows, that
> ultimately overpopulation would drive wildlife almost to the point to
> extinction, so the only ultimate solution to the animal problems is rapid
> reduction of population which is perhaps unrealistic, so at least BIRTH
> CONTROL may help to save those reserves of wildlife humans managed not to
> destroy yet, but then we have religions like Islam and Catholicism, which
> are encouraging humans to reproduce... So, if PETA peoples are for
> real, they must stop liberal PC mumbo jumbo and start proclaiming the
> virtue of the Her Majesty Pill!

> More up-to the point example… If Moz advice to boycott Thai tourism
> industry would be heeded, let’s assume, that elephant raiders would become
> unemployed, as well as hotel managers, clerks, cooks, travel agents in USA
> etc… First, entertainment elephants would be killed, obviously, no one
> would feed them and scoop their shit just for nothing, not to mention some
> Thai children would go to bed without dinner…, maybe some of them would
> even die from hunger… What a great humanist our Moz is!!! Oh no, he didn’t
> mean that, his talk of boycotting Thai is just another PC bull…

> OK, Suzanne, I’m spend….
> Sorry, if I’m being such aWagnerian gloomy bitch, I just had a major
> fallout with my loved one…

> Oh well, I still LUV you, Suzanne, and, hell I LUV to argue with you, my
> dear… LOL

 

[Fox in the Snow]

My Lou Reed solo post-VU rating...

> i just don't see why you are insisting on comparing two different men, who
> live in completely different countries, with different social backgrounds,
> and of completely different generations.

> and i seriously doubt he is STILL more popular.

> latest headline from the NME: "Lou Reed...he's still alive."

> which, if you were comparing lou reed of today vs moz of today, at least
> that would be a starting place. but hinging an argument of Lou Reed's
> relevancy based on what he did back in 1974, before disco music came and
> went and came again, and when music and the scene was completely
> different, and comparing it to what morrissey is currently doing in the
> year 2002 long after punk had died, just really doesn't make a whole lot
> of sense.

> maybe lou reed was at one point relevant. no, he was. but his relevance
> dissipated once David Bowie said, "adios, muchachos". He hasn't
> put out any albums since that point that any sane person would be proud of
> owning. He's been kept alive and breathing because it gives a label
> credibility to have the supposed indie god on their label. I know of no
> person who owns a VU album and who currently enjoys listening to that
> album, who has also salivated, "hey, lou reed's got another album
> coming out!"

> and i can tell you better about what lou's current audience is like better
> than you can. No high schooler runs around wearing a Lou Reed shirt.

I still maintain that Lou Reed epicenter of popularity is Europe, not USA.
When I was a young teen in Riga, which is a part of Russian-speaking world, and time was 80s, you could wake up me or my friends with a baseball bat in the middle of the nite, and ask: name 3 or 4 major rock-n-rollers: and peoples would say, in this order: John Lennon, Mick Jagger, Lou Reed, maybe some would add either David Bowie or Page or Frank Zappa... Weird? Speak with Frenchman or Dutch or Pole, Lou Reed was and STILL is huge influence in Europe, which is not that surprising. NYC, the playground of Lou Reed and Suzanne Vega and Alan Ginsburg, is more like cosmopolitan European city, then real America... Similarly Suzanne Vega is more popular in France or Italy, then here. The same for Iggy Pop. In Europe Iggy and Lou still play stadiums, in America they play 500 capacity clubs like Iggy played small venue Avalon at Boston, Landsowne Street at 1994. Lou is 58 now, of course his prime is way in the past, I'm talking about CUMULATIVE influence over the years...

Speaking about San Diego (Alibi, Kensington Club spots), I saw a lot of young kids, really young, who would run around with Berlin or Transformer CDs or LPs...

Speaking about Lou Reed solo career

'VU & Nico' "A+" (birth of art rock, amazing sincerity, touch of evil?, first literate album, touched: urban politics, drugs, sex, S&M, homosexuality, man & woman sexuality... totally revolutionary album... Alas, it made me a drug addict at 1989, but past is past, now I'm clean (always!) and sober on weekdays...)

'WLWH' (White light White Heat) "A+" (birth of Goth & alternative rock, pure genius)
'VU' "A" (beautiful lyrics)
'LOADED' "A-" (weakest VU one, still damn good lyrically)

VU Live "A-" Excellent official "bootleg", Lou being coy & friendly with audience, Michael Stipe, Corgan and Moz surely catched some of Lou mannerisms from this record... Brilliant... almost all songs

Live at Kansas City "C" (poor-quality "semi-official" bootleg, mostly for completists)

IMHO, scale 1 to 10 (10 is last VU album LOADED level)
SOLO:

'Lou Reed' (debute) "C+" (very lyrical, sincere, yet uneven, some bad songs, some VU outtakes)

'Transformer' "A+" (birth of glam rock)

'Berlin' "A+" (Lou masterpiece, real psychological thriller, produced by Bob Ezrin)

'Sally Can Dance' "B-" Seventies gay & bohemian NYC romp, now sounds aged, kind of cute in retro way...

'Coney Iseland Baby' "A+" Perhaps, best record about a gay man by a gay man... (at least for Lou at 1975 it was true..., Lou falling in love with his high school Long Iseland football coach, going to parties at Greenwich Village, getting lucky, getting high, being happy...)

'Rock'n Roll Heart' "B" (Very personal stuff, drugs, friends, gay lovers, NYC circa 70s)

'Metal Machine Music' "A" (birth of industrial rock & electronics)

'Rock'n Roll Animal' "A" (birth of heavy metal)

'Bells' "C" (jazz fusion, uneven, Lou admires Charles Chaplin, argues with his dad and sister, who hate him being gay)

'Take No Prisoners' (Live, 2 album set) "AA+" LOL...
Lou is singing drunk and/or high at Max's Kansas City, he is funny as hell, he opens his soul to the audience, he don't give a shit, first real punk record ever...

'Street Hustle' "A+" (brilliant: drugs & corpses & mayhem & murder & white guilt & black power, all of this given Twin Peaks, David Lynch-style treatment)

'Growing Up in Public' "B+" (Brilliant, even if uneven, underappreciated Freudian record about Lou childhood. growing up Jewish, schleimel, middle class, gay at NYC etc...)

'Blue Mask' "B+" (great lyrics about Delmore Schwartz, AA Lou Trip, Lou convincing himself he is straight... and other funny things...)

'Home of the Brave' "C-" (Lou in motorcycle helmet on cover, Lou getting sober, off drugs, beating his wife Sylvia, kind of dreadful, even so there are some good songs amongst bad ones)

'New Sensations' "A" (one of the best 80s albums, Lou in his best, swaggering & taking life observations at the same time.. some of the best lyrics)

'Live In Italy' "B" (decent Live Album)
'Mistrial' "C+" (urban subjects, Lou is cool, tries even rapping, yet energy and urgency is missing)

'New York' "B" (overtly political album, Lou blasts Jessy Jackson and street crime& landlords and his ex-wife... LOL.. sharp lyrics, poor [for Lou] musicanship)

'Songs for Drella' "D" (with John Cale, don't like it, it's not alive at all)

'Magic and Loss' "C-" (death of friends from AIDS or cancer, gloom & doom, either very pretentious or perhaps I didn't get it!)

'Set the Twilight Reeling' "B" (Lou is back, with grunge guitars, talking about his Brooklyn childhood, women and men in his life, eulogizing Sterling Morrison. very good, but not something revolutionary...)

'Exstacy' "B-" (very personal, uneven album, Lou is kwetching about getting older, sometimes Lou sounds like Woody Allen, sometimes like Norman Podgoretz, sometimes like a queen, sometimes like a putz, only for hard-core fans, even if I like it, cause I care about Lou)

+ VU demos (many of them great) + Live at London ("B-") + all kinds of reissues and bootlegs...

Now, Suzanne, don' tell me Lou became irrelevant after Transformer, please listen to his post-Transformer albums, then judge... Of course, Lou is an acquired taste, he is more like a pioneer of the new direction, like Iggy Pop, not a cash machine like David Bowie or Mick Jagger or whomever modern ones.

 

[Fox in the Snow]

Oaf, you better tell me, how you became Official Online Stud... Details? Was it Cybersex? LOL

 

[LoafingOaf]

Re: My Lou Reed solo post-VU rating...

..

> Speaking about Lou Reed solo career

> 'VU & Nico' "A+" (birth of art rock, amazing sincerity,
> touch of evil?, first literate album, touched: urban politics, drugs, sex,
> S&M, homosexuality, man & woman sexuality... totally revolutionary
> album... Alas, it made me a drug addict at 1989, but past is past, now I'm
> clean (always!) and sober on weekdays...)

One of the best albums ever! I've gotta get the special edition! The best tracks are Nico's!

All I have are the box set, the special edition of "Loaded," "Transformer,"
Rock and Roll Animal," and "New York." Plus a scattering of songs on comps/soundtracks. I think Lou's good, but I don't love him quite enough to
buy all his other stuff. I've heard bits and pieces of his other works.

> 'Transformer' "A+" (birth of glam rock)

Excellent album.

> 'Metal Machine Music' "A" (birth of industrial rock &
> electronics)

I can't believe you like this, liar. It was meant as a joke, wasn't it?

> 'Rock'n Roll Animal' "A" (birth of heavy metal)

I like kinda like this one now and then.

> 'New York' "B" (overtly political album, Lou blasts Jessy
> Jackson and street crime& landlords and his ex-wife... LOL.. sharp
> lyrics, poor [for Lou] musicanship)

Yes, I have this album, and I meant to say before that I commend him for attacking Jesse Jackson's racism. Not that into the album though.
That Romeo & Juliet song is cool.

Don't you think Lou needs to lighten up a little, though?