Another gay debate

[Luxo]

No I’m saying you’re wrong.

People can describe themselves however they see fit, the problem arises when YOU use that term to describe them.

People are individuals and free to use whatever terms they want.

People who put you in a box, or assume you’re in a “community” are just sticking their noses into places they shouldn’t. Get your own shit in order before you cast assumptions about others.

I’m no more proud of my sexuality than I am my eye colour, that’s how relevant it is. Nor am I ashamed, it’s just part of who I am.

Just don’t go round calling men queer, because you’ll end up on your dish!

Who did I refer to as identifying as queer? Please, enlighten me, sincerely. I referred to Morrissey's lyrics and The Smiths imagery as being queer (as it clearly doesn't fit neatly into any one "box"), but not the man himself, as he identifies as humasexual.

 

[gashonthenail]

Queer was a word the gay community used as a code before it was a slur.

This book is great & sneaks in a few hidden Morrissey references.

That's inaccurate. Queer was first used as a pejorative word for an effeminate male homosexual in the 19th century. In fact, the Marquis of Queensbury used the word in that sense. It was then adopted and reclaimed by the gay community, and more latterly has taken on an academic significance - 'queer studies' etc.
What's a 'hidden Morrissey reference'? Is that a reference that exists only in your head?

 

[Malarkey]

That's inaccurate. Queer was first used as a pejorative word for an effeminate male homosexual in the 19th century. In fact, the Marquis of Queensbury used the word in that sense. It was then adopted and reclaimed by the gay community, and more latterly has taken on an academic significance - 'queer studies' etc.
What's a 'hidden Morrissey reference'? Is that a reference that exists only in your head?

No - it was used as a code prior to that. It only reached the mainstream as a pejorative because being gay was stigmatised & criminalised.

It's when the author tells me there's another reference.

It was inspired by Morrissey's interview with gay magazine Square Peg.

 

[Deleted member 30063]

Can we please stop using the word Queer.

As a “gay man” this word has connotations especially coming from straight people. It’s a slur and an insult. The Q in LGBTQ+ goes to show that the term is not interchangeable.
I’m old enough to remember and to have suffered from this as a hurtful insult for many years.

It’s not big and it’s not clever, and certain people on here seem to take joy in using it to be antagonistic to anyone who has a different opinion than them.

I absolutely despise the word and its prevalence has come to really irritate me.

 

[gashonthenail]

No - it was used as a code prior to that. It only reached the mainstream as a pejorative because being gay was stigmatised & criminalised.

It's when the author tells me there's another reference.

It was inspired by Morrissey's interview with gay magazine Square Peg.

'Queer' history: A history of Queer - The National Archives blog

‘I honestly thought you were queer, but different from the others, and I liked you very much […] I have only been queer since I came to London about two years ago, before then I knew nothing about it.’ Cyril writing to Billy, 1934. Catalogue ref: MEPO 3/758 Researching LGBTQ+ history can be...

blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk

 

[Malarkey]

'Queer' history: A history of Queer - The National Archives blog

‘I honestly thought you were queer, but different from the others, and I liked you very much […] I have only been queer since I came to London about two years ago, before then I knew nothing about it.’ Cyril writing to Billy, 1934. Catalogue ref: MEPO 3/758 Researching LGBTQ+ history can be...

blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk

That's one research blog where they're surprised to find it used as a self description in the 1930s.

It was always a self description as deeper research is proving.

You should go to the Bishopsgate & look at their archives. A lot of it still hasn't been properly catalogued.

 

[Johnnie Ray]

He has said he likes both.

He can have both...but did he?

 

[Anonymous]

Never mind the decades of gay iconography, hundreds of lyrics from 'you can pin and mount me' onwards, the 'lucky' gay lisp, the live-in male lovers who identity as PA's and best friend's on the payroll - I challenge anyone to read both 'Autbiography' and 'List of the Lost' - with its seething disgust at the female physical form - and come to any other conclusion than Morrissey is either predominantly or completely gay. In decades of following the guy, I have never seen the slightest shred of evidence that this is a red-blooded male who 'fancies the birds' - the only women he seems to have any time for are adrogynous gender-benders.

All of which is fine, and he doesn't owe anyone an explanation or a confirmation of his sexual preferences, and the desire not to limit his potential audience is clear. But the coded signals are so blatantly obvious you'd have to be willfully blind to miss them.

 

[Mozzypaws]

He can have both...but did he?

He supposedly had a relationship with Tina Dehghani

 

[Boring]

He has had both. He has loved both. One ‘em has been a constant. He wrote about a relationship with a woman he wanted to have children with and thanked her in the acknowledgements. Why is this subject still being debated? He’s told you everything. Why don’t you want to believe he’s bisexual? Every gay person wants him to be gay. Every straight person wants him to be straight. Like any if you will ever have a chance with him. He’s answered this question multiple times. You should take his word for it. He knows what he is.

 

[Crisstti]

Never mind the decades of gay iconography, hundreds of lyrics from 'you can pin and mount me' onwards, the 'lucky' gay lisp, the live-in male lovers who identity as PA's and best friend's on the payroll - I challenge anyone to read both 'Autbiography' and 'List of the Lost' - with its seething disgust at the female physical form - and come to any other conclusion than Morrissey is either predominantly or completely gay. In decades of following the guy, I have never seen the slightest shred of evidence that this is a red-blooded male who 'fancies the birds' - the only women he seems to have any time for are adrogynous gender-benders.

All of which is fine, and he doesn't owe anyone an explanation or a confirmation of his sexual preferences, and the desire not to limit his potential audience is clear. But the coded signals are so blatantly obvious you'd have to be willfully blind to miss them.

I don't think his refusal to label himself (at least within the "traditional" labels) has anything to do with not wanting to limit his potential audience.

 

[Johnnie Ray]

Morrissey literally wrote about his same sex relationships in Autobiography, and referred to himself as humasexual. Also, some of Morrissey's recent lyrics (especially on Low in High School) were overtly sexual and it's not hard to imagine that he could be referring to same sex relationships considering what we know.

You, with your fingers in your ears: "Morrissey is completely and utterly HETEROSEXUAL and EXTREMELY MASCULINE. There's nothing queer, sexual or homoerotic about his work!!!! I'M NOT GAY!!!! I'M NOT GAY!!!!"

That Gordy guy is totally in denial about himself, I think.

 

[Johnnie Ray]

Can we please stop using the word Queer.

As a “gay man” this word has connotations especially coming from straight people. It’s a slur and an insult. The Q in LGBTQ+ goes to show that the term is not interchangeable.
I’m old enough to remember and to have suffered from this as a hurtful insult for many years.

It’s not big and it’s not clever, and certain people on here seem to take joy in using it to be antagonistic to anyone who has a different opinion than them.

Yes! I never understood how gay people use the word queer. In elementary school, we used to play "Smear the Queer" on the playground. That word should have gone the way of the dinosaur many years ago. Such an ugly word.

 

[Redacted]

Bit of casual anti-LGBT, specifically biphobia, at Morrissey's expense there from gordy.

Some white male (mostly) straight Morrissey fans really do struggle to accept that there's the possibility of a homoerotic element to their love of Morrissey, that goes far beyond his music. I for one love it and embrace it, as a hetero man.

Maybe some people just don't care, maybe some people are tired of the gay gay gay phobic phobic phobic monomania. Maybe some people just want to enjoy his music and don't give a damn who he does or does not sleep with, if anyone. M had also said he is asexual and celibate, he's said a lot of things. Accusing someone of being closeted or semi closeted because it fits this really tired agenda, where that is the usual accusation YAWN is just boring and predictable.

 

[yesnowinlose]

I wonder how many more times such threads will be created?
This has never happened before, and here it is again ©

I am sure that Morrissey always made his choice of partner, based primarily on how he feels next to this person. Is it worth mentioning that in the 2000s, he even considered the possibility of continuing his line with a girl named Tina, with whom they were very close? Exactly like his relationship with men, about which no one really knows anything, only a passing mentions in his "Autobiography". We do not know many details that Morrissey tactfully kept silent about. Personally, I'm not worried about his sexual orientation, the main thing is that he be humanly happy.

At the same time, I do not like the idea of insistently labeling Morrissey with the prefix "homo", because he denied and denies it. If he was 100% homo, do you think he would have been silent about it all these years? (And this despite the fact that he can argue his choice in a harsh form). He has long been a grown man to worry madly about what other people will think about him somewhere (although newspapers like the DailyMail constantly test his nerves for strength, as soon as he lights up somewhere, not to mention the haters here, on morrissey-soloW).
Well, many musicians coming out, admitting to being bisexual or homosexual for various reasons: they want to be closer to their fans, a PR move, to stop hiding from the ubiquitous paparazzi, etc. However, Morrissey has long let us all understand that he is not interested in the biological sex of a person, but in what this person is in general. And, as you know, far from many attract his attention, he is too selective to let anyone into his personal space. The song "I'm Not Sorry" describes his attitude well.

He also admitted that a beautiful woman could get his attention, but he would not approach her. The negative experience of relationships with girls in youth is noticeable on some songs by The Smiths, where the image of a girl always promises trouble. It is much more comfortable for him to be in a male company, where he can count on mutual understanding. Of course, there are women with whom he communicates, they are few, but they are. The mind of the interlocutor means more to him than external data.
In some of his live performances, the sexual energy of "a charismatic straight man who is good-looking and knows about it" can be felt. If in The Smiths he seemed to be fooling around in a "near-homo" image with beads and flowers, then at the height of his solo career he changed his style to a more "hetero" one (with the exception of some early outings in overly frilly shirts). With the new style, he became more real, more open to his audience, without the outrageous "homo image" of the early Smiths.
Summing up, I can say one thing: Morrissey is exceptional in everything, but his personal life is his business, his choice. It’s not for you to live with him, exactly how he is with you.

P.S. By the way, when I first saw the video for "This Charming Man", I didn't even think that Morrissey could really be a homo. I considered this outrageous image as an aid to the effective growth of the group's popularity. Well, later the clip "November Spawned A Monster" only strengthened my opinion.

 

[Crisstti]

I wonder how many more times such threads will be created?
This has never happened before, and here it is again ©

I am sure that Morrissey always made his choice of partner, based primarily on how he feels next to this person. Is it worth mentioning that in the 2000s, he even considered the possibility of continuing his line with a girl named Tina, with whom they were very close? Exactly like his relationship with men, about which no one really knows anything, only a passing mentions in his "Autobiography". We do not know many details that Morrissey tactfully kept silent about. Personally, I'm not worried about his sexual orientation, the main thing is that he be humanly happy.

At the same time, I do not like the idea of insistently labeling Morrissey with the prefix "homo", because he denied and denies it. If he was 100% homo, do you think he would have been silent about it all these years? (And this despite the fact that he can argue his choice in a harsh form). He has long been a grown man to worry madly about what other people will think about him somewhere (although newspapers like the DailyMail constantly test his nerves for strength, as soon as he lights up somewhere, not to mention the haters here, on morrissey-soloW).
Well, many musicians coming out, admitting to being bisexual or homosexual for various reasons: they want to be closer to their fans, a PR move, to stop hiding from the ubiquitous paparazzi, etc. However, Morrissey has long let us all understand that he is not interested in the biological sex of a person, but in what this person is in general. And, as you know, far from many attract his attention, he is too selective to let anyone into his personal space. The song "I'm Not Sorry" describes his attitude well.

He also admitted that a beautiful woman could get his attention, but he would not approach her. The negative experience of relationships with girls in youth is noticeable on some songs by The Smiths, where the image of a girl always promises trouble. It is much more comfortable for him to be in a male company, where he can count on mutual understanding. Of course, there are women with whom he communicates, they are few, but they are. The mind of the interlocutor means more to him than external data.
In some of his live performances, the sexual energy of "a charismatic straight man who is good-looking and knows about it" can be felt. If in The Smiths he seemed to be fooling around in a "near-homo" image with beads and flowers, then at the height of his solo career he changed his style to a more "hetero" one (with the exception of some early outings in overly frilly shirts). With the new style, he became more real, more open to his audience, without the outrageous "homo image" of the early Smiths.
Summing up, I can say one thing: Morrissey is exceptional in everything, but his personal life is his business, his choice. It’s not for you to live with him, exactly how he is with you.

P.S. By the way, when I first saw the video for "This Charming Man", I didn't even think that Morrissey could really be a homo. I considered this outrageous image as an aid to the effective growth of the group's popularity. Well, later the clip "November Spawned A Monster" only strengthened my opinion.

Why do you think this "homo image" was so outrageous? What made it so?
At the height of his so called "hetero" image he took to having fake bruises and cuts... is that any less "outrageous"?

He was also in a relationship with a man a the time...

 

[Tibby]

Morrissey does not claim the homosexual label, nor does he claim that he is straight. He`s had serious relationships with both genders. He doesn't have to claim a label if he feels he doesn`t fit in to one. There`s a lot of people who don`t think a label is important. They just care about and love the person and not what they think what group they belong to. They have a right to believe the way they do too. I think we project what we think he is based on our own feelings. I just think Morrissey`s music says all you need to know.

 

[yesnowinlose]

Why do you think this "homo image" was so outrageous? What made it so?
At the height of his so called "hetero" image he took to having fake bruises and cuts... is that any less "outrageous"?

He was also in a relationship with a man a the time...

"Outrageous" in his image was how confidently and artistically he performed with songs about the difficulties of youthful life, adding beads and armfuls of gladioli to the image, which looked unexpected with half-opened shirts.

As for the imitation of bruises and cuts, this is most likely an attempt to make his image more brutal in order to move away from the image of a "fragile young man with flowers." It would have been much worse if it had been actual bruises and cuts – then the fans would have raised a worried noise that someone was crippling him. So, it was intended that way, we can only guess about the true motives of such "special effects".

 

[Johnnie Ray]

There never was one? Jake Walters was Morrissey’s gay lover for two years.

Morrissey writes in Autobiography that his time with Walters saw “the first time in my life the eternal ‘I’ becomes ‘we’, as, finally, I can get on with someone”.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Really? I read that as Morrissey saying he finally has a friend he can confide in and get along with. What does Jake Walters have to say? Absolutely nothing. If there was something spicy there, Mr. Walters could get rich writing a tell all book. Doesn't he like money or does his loyalty to someone he hasn't been in contact with for 30+ years trump that? Come on now! I don't care either way but in life you can learn a lot by simply following the money and there is nothing to follow here.

 

[Aubrey McFate]

Really? I read that as Morrissey saying he finally has a friend he can confide in and get along with. What does Jake Walters have to say? Absolutely nothing. If there was something spicy there, Mr. Walters could get rich writing a tell all book. Doesn't he like money or does his loyalty to someone he hasn't been in contact with for 30+ years trump that? Come on now! I don't care either way but in life you can learn a lot by simply following the money and there is nothing to follow here.

Just a fact-check here, Johnnie, but Jake Walters photographed Morrissey for the excellent Years of Refusal cover, c. 2009, so "not been in contact with for 30+ years" is incorrect. They appear to have remained friends after having lived together, so probably Walters does value loyalty over a kiss-&-tell paycheck. Anyway, Autobiography already tastefully indicates a physical intimacy to their relationship in the 90s. Maybe it was just chaste spooning and shirtless shoulder rubs; we don't need Jake Walters to describe every detail in a sleazy My Time With Morrissey thing, but there was obviously a homoerotic dimension to it beyond just your normal male/male friendship.