Another court case debate

You make a very good point in your last paragraph. Joe Moss for sure should have insisted that contracts were clear and signed…
Agree this should all be on it's own "very crashingly unfortunate legal issues thread".

Have to say I blame management for this whole disaster. "Long may it last..." Maybe they didn't think it would and they just couldn't be bothered to get important long term matters nailed down, or thought the terms were unreasonable and wouldn't be agreed to if discussed properly.

It's so depressing how a fresh new band can come along and then fall foul of the most obvious Rock N Roll pitfalls guaranteed to destroy any professional relationship.
 
That seems odd me as well. At least here, normally your attorney would be notified on your behalf. But if there was a default judgement, then it seems he did not have an attorney representing him on this matter then.

Well, he takes issue because he did NOT consider that he owed Joyce any money.

You make a very good point in your last paragraph. Joe Moss for sure should have insisted that contracts were clear and signed…
Whether he thinks the outcome of the court case was a miscarriage of justice or not, the fact is that Joyce won. Morrissey then appealed and lost. It was over. It was time to pay up and move on.

Morrissey's refusal to do so is what led to Joyce causing distress for Morrissey's family when he tried to have their properties seized. That would all have been avoided had Morrissey paid up like Marr did. He was legally obliged to, and it isn't as if he couldn't afford it.

The 40/40/10/10 split was abnormal. If it had all been agreed to and was all above board, then the onus was on Morrissey and Marr to present Rourke and Joyce with contracts putting that split of the royalties in writing. Had they already been aware of this split and had verbally agreed to it, then there would clearly have been no hesitation on their part in signing these contracts.

In the absence of these contracts, a 25 per cent each split is the normal, default outcome. It is not difficult to see why Judge Weeks came to this decision. No one denies that Rourke and Joyce were fully fledged members of the band, albeit not songwriters (not that songwriting royalities were ever in dispute anyway). They were not session musicians. They played on every album and at every gig (except for one or two of the very early gigs).

I love Morrissey and agree with him on many things, but not this.
 
‘You think you've won

Oh no’


:cool:
 
Agree this should all be on it's own "very crashingly unfortunate legal issues thread".

Have to say I blame management for this whole disaster. "Long may it last..." Maybe they didn't think it would and they just couldn't be bothered to get important long term matters nailed down, or thought the terms were unreasonable and wouldn't be agreed to if discussed properly.

It's so depressing how a fresh new band can come along and then fall foul of the most obvious Rock N Roll pitfalls guaranteed to destroy any professional relationship.

Maybe if Morrissey had stopped firing all their managers it wouldn’t have come to this.
 
one thing nobody ever mentions is the few hundred thousand pounds that M had to pay to clear the smiths debts while the other three were hiding in a cupboard,its only me that seems to ever mention this.
 
one thing nobody ever mentions is the few hundred thousand pounds that M had to pay to clear the smiths debts while the other three were hiding in a cupboard,its only me that seems to ever mention this.
There’s only you who seems to mention a lot of things.
 
one thing nobody ever mentions is the few hundred thousand pounds that M had to pay to clear the smiths debts while the other three were hiding in a cupboard,its only me that seems to ever mention this.
Tell me more, I was unaware of this.
 
Tell me more, I was unaware of this.
he broke down all the facts and figures of the court case on the true to you website in one of the question and answer sessions and im sure thats where it was mentioned.
 
Whether he thinks the outcome of the court case was a miscarriage of justice or not, the fact is that Joyce won. Morrissey then appealed and lost. It was over. It was time to pay up and move on.

Morrissey's refusal to do so is what led to Joyce causing distress for Morrissey's family when he tried to have their properties seized. That would all have been avoided had Morrissey paid up like Marr did. He was legally obliged to, and it isn't as if he couldn't afford it.

The 40/40/10/10 split was abnormal. If it had all been agreed to and was all above board, then the onus was on Morrissey and Marr to present Rourke and Joyce with contracts putting that split of the royalties in writing. Had they already been aware of this split and had verbally agreed to it, then there would clearly have been no hesitation on their part in signing these contracts.

In the absence of these contracts, a 25 per cent each split is the normal, default outcome. It is not difficult to see why Judge Weeks came to this decision. No one denies that Rourke and Joyce were fully fledged members of the band, albeit not songwriters (not that songwriting royalities were ever in dispute anyway). They were not session musicians. They played on every album and at every gig (except for one or two of the very early gigs).

I love Morrissey and agree with him on many things, but not this.
They might simply have been careless, not considered a written contract necessary, etc.
If the agreement existed, written or not, then it was wrong of Joyce to bring about the lawsuit.

Beyond that, another matter is whether this supposed agreement was fair or not. IMO, while the royalties difference does seem pretty extreme, Moz and Johnny did have more responsibilities than Mike and Andy, so some difference was justified.
 
he broke down all the facts and figures of the court case on the true to you website in one of the question and answer sessions and im sure thats where it was mentioned.
Weird, I actually attended a few days of the court case and missed that.
 
Morrissey made the cardinal mistake that Oscar Wilde did: he tried to use his outsized character to bully the court proceedings and "make an example" of the judicial system. In both cases, it was to their undoing. Whatever you think of the system, this was a grievous miscalculation. He left the dock with a target on his back.

By the time Morrissey paid up in the early Noughties, he had pursued the matter to the European Court of Human Rights. He exhausted every possible avenue to appeal the case and was found wanting. As others have said, if there truly was no contract, the 25% rule was going to apply. He could have left well enough alone a la Marr but decided it was the hill he was going to die on. He died on the hill AND paid interest for the "pleasure." But it was his life to ruin etc etc. 🤷‍♂️
 
Man, I didn’t know there were so many solicitors and people with law degrees here. Wow! 🙌🏻🙌🏻😍😍
 
Weird, I actually attended a few days of the court case and missed that.
i dont think it was in the court case,it was something he mentioned off-hand.
 
I think it WAS the intention for the 40/40/10/10 split.
Based on the contributions of Morrissey and Marr to the overall "project" , then probably not unreasonable.
However , the lack of any substantial physical evidence to back this up could only lead to ne legal outcome.
Unfortunately , Moz saw his backside in Court trying to be clever.
I love him to bits but the 100 plus pages in Autobiography were painful.

What Moz did get right was to put Venlo and BeechMount in his mum's name , so there could be no charge on them.
 
I think it WAS the intention for the 40/40/10/10 split.
Based on the contributions of Morrissey and Marr to the overall "project" , then probably not unreasonable.
However , the lack of any substantial physical evidence to back this up could only lead to ne legal outcome.
Unfortunately , Moz saw his backside in Court trying to be clever.
I love him to bits but the 100 plus pages in Autobiography were painful.

What Moz did get right was to put Venlo and BeechMount in his mum's name , so there could be no charge on them.
Placing assets in a.n others name(s) is an offence in itself. If it is deprivation of assets (which it was)
 
I think it WAS the intention for the 40/40/10/10 split.
Based on the contributions of Morrissey and Marr to the overall "project" , then probably not unreasonable.
However , the lack of any substantial physical evidence to back this up could only lead to ne legal outcome.
Unfortunately , Moz saw his backside in Court trying to be clever.
I love him to bits but the 100 plus pages in Autobiography were painful.

What Moz did get right was to put Venlo and BeechMount in his mum's name , so there could be no charge on them.
Always wondered about your last point. Presumably he did it before the case?

I don't think you can just put your assets into another person's name to avoid paying a court judgement.
 
Placing assets in a.n others name(s) is an offence in itself. If it is deprivation of assets (which it was)

He would no doubt point to the properties he occupied in London (again as documented in Autobiography) and then his move to Los Angeles. Sure he also lived in Dublin for a bit.
His mum remained permanently at either Venlo or Beechmount , so I think he has got a valid argument with those.
Who wouldn't like to set their Mum up with houses in the leafy Cheshire countryside?

Do wonder if they have now passed back to him (or him/Jackie? - or her grandchildren?)
 
Always wondered about your last point. Presumably he did it before the case?

I don't think you can just put your assets into another person's name to avoid paying a court judgement.
Yes , they were registered in his Mum's name in 84 and 89 respectively.
You do wonder if he had an inkling of what may be coming at some point.
 
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