Andy Rourke RC interview - April, 2022

Text reproduction of his interview in "Record Collector presents: The Smiths" special (April 21, 2022).

"ACE OF BASS

It all began with a Neil Young badge pinned to his school blazer. In this brand new interview, Andy Rourke tells Lois Wilson about the call from an old mate that would change his life forever...


I met Johnny at school when I was 11. I was really into Neil Young at the time and he was wearing a Neil Young Tonight's The Night lapel badge. This was when everyone else seemed to be into Jethro Tull and heavy metal, so Neil Young was a conversation opener and pretty soon we were spending all our spare time together, either playing music or listening to music or talking about music. We formed a band together, Freak Party. It was me on bass, Johnny on guitar and funky Si Wolstenscroft on drums, and the music did get funky. The Clash's Sandinista! had just come out and we were jumping on that vibe. We rehearsed every night until kicking out time, we got stoned a lot and jammed a lot. They were good days, but we auditioned countless frontmen to no avail and eventually Johnny quit out of frustration as it became clear we weren't going anywhere.

Not long after he quit he called me up. He had a new band called The Smiths. Did I want to join. They'd already played their first gig at the Ritz in Manchester with Dale Hibbert on bass. Some mates of mine had gone along but I hadn't. I met up with Johnny, he said it didn't work out with Dale and he gave me a demo tape which had two songs on it - Suffer Little Children and The Hand That Rocks The Cradle. It wasn't what I was expecting but I could hear something great in there, something different and I really liked what Johnny was doing, The first recordings I did with The Smiths were the demos for Handsome Devil and Miserable Lie and these were done in the downstairs of a studio in Chorlton called Drone. That's when I first met Morrissey and Mike. When I got there, Mike was saring up his drums. He was chatty, easy to get on with. Then, as I was setting up Morrissey arrived, he introduced himself as Stephen, shook my hand then shuffled into the corner and started going through his bag of lyrics and sandwiches and stuff. People often called him aloof at that time, but I think he was painfully shy, he just wasn't used to meeting new people. Our first gig was at Manhattan Sound in Manchester (on 25 January 1983) and it was utter chaos. There was no stage, the sound was terrible, the audience were right in your face, virtually touching you and I was so nervous I really didn't enjoy it at all. But we played OK. James Maker introduced us. He was our go-go dancer. I wasn't comfortable with his role and I am pretty sure Mike and Johnny felt the same. It was an unnecessary distraction and I think it cramped Morrissey's style. There wasn't much scope for him when James was jumping around.

Johnny and I used to go to The Hacienda pretty much every night. In those days it was really quiet and it was freezing cold. People sat in their own corner. There was the drug dealing corner, the gay corner, the extrovert corner and when we got a gig there [on 4 February 1983] it felt like a big deal, and in many ways our first proper gig. We had monitors and a stage and a set list and Morrissey ordered a shit load of gladioli and he threw half out to the audience, and half he stuck in his back pocket and that became a thing and the boxes got bigger and bigger and his back pockets got bigger and bigger and eventually he had half a tree in there.

After that Hacienda gig, we really took off, there was no stopping us. We were a had total belief and we had a real "us versus them" attitude. Not being on Factory, there was a sense we stood apart from the other Manchester bands like A Certain Ratio, New Order, Durutti Column. We were our own separate thing.

I don't remember the exact point Steven became Morrissey but I know he first broke the news to Johnny and Johnny gave us the heads up we weren't to call him Steven or, worse still, Steve, which he hated. At first it was really awkward calling him Morrissey, and he'd get embarrassed and then he'd call me Rourke and I wouldn't be sure if we were to revert back to calling him Steven but eventually it became normal and we even got down to just Moz and Mozza.

Going on Top Of The Pops with This Charming Man was another big deal. I'd grown up listening to the Top 20 on the radio with my mum and it had been everything to me so I was overjoyed, we all were, but we were all nervous too. We went down to the studio. It was very surreal and we weren't prepared for the total fakeness of it - the miming, the fake audience dancing (and if they didn't dance they got thrown out). We went into the make-up room and we'd bought Marks & Spencer sweaters for the occasion and they said, "What are you going to be wearing for the show?" and we were like, "This is it." We went on in our black jeans and sweaters. We definitely stood out.

Ironically, Strangeways, Here We Come is my favourite album. It's the one on which we completely gelled. We had come of age and we were in our element and ready to take on the world and then of course we split up. There was no inkling Johnny was going to leave but in hindsight I can see the frustrations, but I was too busy getting on with my own thing to realise the gravity
of the situation. When he left the impact was huge and I think we were all traumatised and probably still are. No one knew how to react. I didn't know whether to call him or leave him alone. It was a really awful time, horrible. for everyone concerned.

Almost immediately after he left, Morrissey asked me and Mike to play on his solo stuff-a big kick in the eye for Johnny and it made me feel even more awkward about speaking to him. I felt like I had betrayed him so it was a long while before we spoke again. We had been best friends and then we weren't talking. I hadn't fallen out with him, but I felt guilty. It's not a time I fondly recall.

In The Smiths when we were getting songs together, Johnny already knew how the music would sound and he would play his guitar part. I would write the bass part and that was as far as my writing went. Morrissey brought out the songwriter in me. He believed I could do it and he made me believe I could do it and we ended up writing together. We started off with a blank page and a blank cassette and from that we wrote Yes, I Am Blind and Girl Least Likely To.

After Morrissey, there was Freebass (with Mani and Peter Hook) and D.A.R.K. I also wrote the music for Anthony Bourdain's Raw Craft TV series and worked with James Franco putting his poems inspired by The Smiths to music. I am currently playing in Blitz Vega with KAV from the Happy Mondays. We've got a single coming out this year called Strong Forever to be followed by an EP."



Regards,
FWD.
 
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Marr is extremely insecure and has tried to craft this image of him being the good guy vs Morrissey being a terrible monster. Marr broke up the band and needed to blame someone, because he was not going to take responsibility, there are a few paragraphs in Mozipedia quoting Andy, about how Marr was making demands at the end and no one went along with him. One was no more quiffs, he thought he could tell him and Morrissey how to wear their hair! Marr seemed to really think he was the most important person there, turns out he was not. Marr said it could have turned out differently if THEY, meaning the band, had handled it differently. He takes responsibility for nothing. I read an interesting article about how the Smiths were contractually bound to tour for Strangeways, not sure how they got out of it, but also signed to a new record company for another album after that, which became Morrissey's first solo album. The contract was written that the record company would have control of whatever was put out by either Marr or Morrissey, even if they broke up, which means Johnny could have gotten a solo deal too, if the record company had been interested in the songs he wrote, and he did write a few, but apparently they were not interested and only wanted Morrissey. That must have stung. Marr went on to the Pretenders, where he did a cover song and he was fired within 4 months.
He really is a horrible person and he has hurt a lot of people.
It's interesting that Andy does not feel he has to distance himself from Morrissey in this interview and slam him, the way Marr always does, but instead says kind things about him.

That is interesting. Especially the highlighted parts. Could you cite what paged in Mozipedia those quotes come from, and where the article can be found that you refer to?
 
There is no one who knows anything about songwriting and copyright law who agrees with your super incorrect interpretations. You should spend more time listening than talking. Probably in general. (I doubt you will follow this advice. I should set a timer for how long it takes you to reply.)
 
the thing that i've seen no one comment on is...marr generally provided morrissey with a 4 track demo of what the potential composition could sound like. almost every writer who has ever written for morrissey has mentioned that that was the way the morrissey liked to be inspired...by cassette. many mention that to better their chances, it was felt to inject as much mood and vibe into those demos as to paint a picture in morrissey's mind to excite him.

there are plenty of interviews where marr mentions sketching a rough idea out with drum machine and guitar. as someone who's spent many years in that 4 track world...you may be able to squeak out 7 or 8 additional passes of laying down instruments with bounce downs before the demo would become too murky and hiss laden. it is doubtful he brought in mike to program the drum machine or andy to play bass on those 4 track recordings...probably just marr himself making basic musical suggestions as to where the song could go to a) first inspire himself b) to inspire morrissey to want to craft his melodic lines and lyrics on top and c) if the criteria of b is met, as a rough guide to mike and andy as to the essentials of the song that morrissey and marr have now earmaked as a potential new "smiths" song and how to craft their contributions to fit into that. since not many of those initial 4 track demos have ever leaked (i.e. swamp song), it's hard to know how elaborate marr's suggested parts are for the rest of the members but still even harder to deny that if marr crafted a rough sketch of the musical portion of the track...that anyone else should get credit for that no matter how well their parts uplifted the initial demo. i'd imagine the same goes for many of morrissey's solo writers as well.
 
Some very odd definitions of songwriting here. Although inventive, Rourke’s bass lines in the Smiths don’t constitute songwriting. He’s essentially following Marr’s chord sequences, and playing off the music that Marr has created. Sure, he’s adding flourishes etc, but still within the context of Marr’s melodies. You could say that he definitely helped arrange the songs, but he didn’t co-write them...
 
the thing that i've seen no one comment on is...marr generally provided morrissey with a 4 track demo of what the potential composition could sound like. almost every writer who has ever written for morrissey has mentioned that that was the way the morrissey liked to be inspired...by cassette. many mention that to better their chances, it was felt to inject as much mood and vibe into those demos as to paint a picture in morrissey's mind to excite him.

there are plenty of interviews where marr mentions sketching a rough idea out with drum machine and guitar. as someone who's spent many years in that 4 track world...you may be able to squeak out 7 or 8 additional passes of laying down instruments with bounce downs before the demo would become too murky and hiss laden. it is doubtful he brought in mike to program the drum machine or andy to play bass on those 4 track recordings...probably just marr himself making basic musical suggestions as to where the song could go to a) first inspire himself b) to inspire morrissey to want to craft his melodic lines and lyrics on top and c) if the criteria of b is met, as a rough guide to mike and andy as to the essentials of the song that morrissey and marr have now earmaked as a potential new "smiths" song and how to craft their contributions to fit into that. since not many of those initial 4 track demos have ever leaked (i.e. swamp song), it's hard to know how elaborate marr's suggested parts are for the rest of the members but still even harder to deny that if marr crafted a rough sketch of the musical portion of the track...that anyone else should get credit for that no matter how well their parts uplifted the initial demo. i'd imagine the same goes for many of morrissey's solo writers as well.

This is not an issue if the credits are 'Music by Marr/Rourke'; 'Song by Morrisey'. The credit acknowledges that Marr created some of the music (on a 4 track cassette initially, and then subsequent overdubbed guitar harmonies) and that Rourke create some of the music (the often-crucial bass lines). The order those contributions came in is not important. Credit for the song as something inspired by, but distinct from, the music (it being the vocal melody and lyric) goes to Morrissey.

Let me put it this way - you are basically saying that Marr should be credited for composing music. So why shouldn't Rourke?

The answer, I imagine, is because you think that Rourke's contribution didn't create the actual song. But neither did Marr's. The backing music - in whatever form, and to whatever extent it was finished - simply inspired the creation of the song. But it was Morrissey who created the actual song - the lyrics and the vocal melody. Even a distinctive piece of music like the backing track to 'Bigmouth Strikes Again', as great and distinctive it is a piece of music, it's not the song 'Bigmouth Strikes Again' without the words and vocal melody. But take away the backing music, and the words and vocal melody are still the song 'Bigmouth Strikes Again'.

Credit where it's due.
 
Some very odd definitions of songwriting here. Although inventive, Rourke’s bass lines in the Smiths don’t constitute songwriting. He’s essentially following Marr’s chord sequences, and playing off the music that Marr has created. Sure, he’s adding flourishes etc, but still within the context of Marr’s melodies. You could say that he definitely helped arrange the songs, but he didn’t co-write them...
Yes, nail on head.

Morrissey wrote the lyrics and Johnny wrote the melodies.
 
Yes, nail on head.

Morrissey wrote the lyrics and Johnny wrote the melodies.

The musical melodies, he didn't come up with the vocal melodies, and a great vocal melody can often carry a song, this is evident in Morrissey's career and sorely lacking in Johnny's. And I don't know, I reckon Andy should get a co-credit for the music even if it's understood that Johnny did the brunt of the work. Marr is credited with writing the music and I don't begrudge him that; he did, but Andy contributed by writing those brilliant bass lines, surely?
 
❓

WTF??? :handpointright::guardsman::handpointleft: write a melody⁉️
Moz wrote all melodies, proof is that El Pepe hasnt made one since Moz dispatched him off the group🤒
none of his material has had a semblance of one since, Pep writing writing melodies :lbf:


:hammer:
 
Yes, nail on head.

Morrissey wrote the lyrics and Johnny wrote the melodies.

You're completely wrong.

For a start, Marr didn't write anything - he doesn't read or write music.

Secondly, and more importantly, Marr didn't create what most people call a song's tune - the vocal melody. Morrissey created the vocal melodies. He didn't just write the lyrics. I thought that was fairly common knowledge by now.
 
Although inventive, Rourke’s bass lines in the Smiths don’t constitute songwriting. He’s essentially following Marr’s chord sequences, and playing off the music that Marr has created. Sure, he’s adding flourishes etc, but still within the context of Marr’s melodies. You could say that he definitely helped arrange the songs, but he didn’t co-write them...

Marr's music doesn't constitute songwriting either. He came up with chord sequences, rhythm and guitar melodies and harmonies. In other words, he made music, not songs. Morrissey then turned the music into songs by creating the lyrics and vocal melodies.

So Marr should be credited for 'Music' not given a co-credit for 'Songs'.

As for Rourke, he's doing a hell of a lot more than adding 'flourishes' in most Smiths songs. And no, he didn't help arrange them. But what he did do was compose his own, very melodic, bass guitar lines, which serve as a counterpoint to Marr's guitars, sometimes drive the songs in themselves, and likely inspired many of the guitar harmonies that Marr overdubbed added once the vocal melody had been put down.

Therefore Rourke should also get a credit for the music,

Music by Marr/Rourke. Songs by Morrissey. As I say, credit where it's due.
 
You're completely wrong.

For a start, Marr didn't write anything - he doesn't read or write music.

Secondly, and more importantly, Marr didn't create what most people call a song's tune - the vocal melody. Morrissey created the vocal melodies. He didn't just write the lyrics. I thought that was fairly common knowledge by now.
You have a fairly narrow definition of what constitutes songwriting. I’m not sure why you think the ability to read and write music is in any way essential to songwriting - if that’s the case, John Lennon, Lou Reed, Bob Dylan etc can’t call themselves songwriters. No, of course Marr didn’t create the songs’ vocal melodies - Morrissey did - but the vocal lines he came up with were hugely bound up with the guitar lines that Marr created. His vocal melodies wouldn’t exist without Marr’s tunes to base them upon. They were a classic songwriting partnership.
 
The musical melodies, he didn't come up with the vocal melodies, and a great vocal melody can often carry a song, this is evident in Morrissey's career and sorely lacking in Johnny's. And I don't know, I reckon Andy should get a co-credit for the music even if it's understood that Johnny did the brunt of the work. Marr is credited with writing the music and I don't begrudge him that; he did, but Andy contributed by writing those brilliant bass lines, surely?
Andy's contribution falls under arrangement rather than writing. That's the legal standard. Obviously he gets paid performance royalties for that, but he wasn't entitled to songwriting royalties.

It is widely established that songwriting is based on lyrics and melodies. Morrissey and Johnny came up with all of them, so deservedly were the only ones credited.
 
:crazy:
is this you DH? FH?
well in the off chance its neither please read:handpointdown:
DH Andy, who, :handpointright::guardsman::handpointleft: had to teach how to play the bass notes
(thats what le pepe himself said, and they were 'mates' ever since
pep worked in the 👗shop) now ARRANGED THE MUSIC‼️⁉️

you get 'performance' royalties for doing the 'arrangement' WtF??:crazy:
what are they now unemployed don costas:lbf:
he gets 0 for 'arranging' since neither probably know what that even means🤒

:hammer:
 
You're completely wrong.

For a start, Marr didn't write anything - he doesn't read or write music.

Secondly, and more importantly, Marr didn't create what most people call a song's tune - the vocal melody. Morrissey created the vocal melodies. He didn't just write the lyrics. I thought that was fairly common knowledge by now.
Oh for f_ck's sake, not this pedantic sh_te again. Nobody was persuaded by (or even interested in) anything you said the last time you went on about this sh_t, and nobody gives a toss now.
 
Andy's contribution falls under arrangement rather than writing. That's the legal standard. Obviously he gets paid performance royalties for that, but he wasn't entitled to songwriting royalties.

It is widely established that songwriting is based on lyrics and melodies. Morrissey and Johnny came up with all of them, so deservedly were the only ones credited.

No, wrong again. Andy came up with melodies. You can hear them. On the records. And he's just noted in a recent interview that he composed them himself.

As songwriting is based on lyrics and melodies, then either Morrissey should get sole credit, since he came up with the lyrics and the vocal melodies, or the songs should be credited to Morrissey/Marr/Rourke, since Rourke produced bass guitar melodies, just as Johnny produced lead guitar melodies.
 
Oh for f_ck's sake, not this pedantic sh_te again. Nobody was persuaded by (or even interested in) anything you said the last time you went on about this sh_t, and nobody gives a toss now.

... he rants, contradicting himself in the process of so doing.

If you didn't give a toss, and weren't interested, you wouldn't be reading it and posting messages in reply to it, you thick dipshit.
 
You're completely wrong.

For a start, Marr didn't write anything - he doesn't read or write music.

Secondly, and more importantly, Marr didn't create what most people call a song's tune - the vocal melody. Morrissey created the vocal melodies. He didn't just write the lyrics. I thought that was fairly common knowledge by now.

💯 pts(y)

of course Moz made the melodies. have you ever seen a song associated with the 3 lawnmowers ever have a melody on it??
again correct on Pepe not knowing how to write music, cant make it out.o_O
subtract the 3 lawnmowers and you still have beautiful music, but subtract Moz and you are left with a din like someone pounding on tin🔇



:thumb:


:hammer:
 
... he rants, contradicting himself in the process of so doing.

If you didn't give a toss, and weren't interested, you wouldn't be reading it and posting messages in reply to it, you thick dipshit.
A closer reading of what I wrote might help your understanding. I'm commenting on your interest in the very precise and literal meaning of words, rather than the question of whether somebody can, or cannot, properly be categorised as a "songwriter". Your utterly pointless insistence that only Morrissey "writes songs", whereas Johnny Marr et al don't seems to be a point of interest for you that borders fixation. By contrast, it seems of little obvious interest to anyone else. For me, that's the interesting bit.

Anyway, you seem pretty angry, so I'll let you get on. I'm off to crank out a proper Morrissey banger . . . :guitar:

Night night.
 
❓

WTF??? :handpointright::guardsman::handpointleft: write a melody⁉️
Moz wrote all melodies, proof is that El Pepe hasnt made one since Moz dispatched him off the group🤒
none of his material has had a semblance of one since, Pep writing writing melodies :lbf:


:hammer:
You are right, that info came straight from Marr himself when my husband asked him how he and Morrissey wrote songs, he said Morrissey came up with the melodies
 
You have a fairly narrow definition of what constitutes songwriting. I’m not sure why you think the ability to read and write music is in any way essential to songwriting - if that’s the case, John Lennon, Lou Reed, Bob Dylan etc can’t call themselves songwriters. No, of course Marr didn’t create the songs’ vocal melodies - Morrissey did - but the vocal lines he came up with were hugely bound up with the guitar lines that Marr created. His vocal melodies wouldn’t exist without Marr’s tunes to base them upon. They were a classic songwriting partnership.

You're missing the point again. I didn't say that the ability to read and write music is essential to creating songs - quite the opposite. I pointed out that, by the by, referring to Marr as 'writing' anything is inaccurate, since he doesn't read or write music, I then pointed out that all that is essential to creating a song is creating the vocal melody and lyrics - because that's what the song is. And it was Morrissey who did that. So what Marr created was not the song but the backing music. And he only co-created it, because Rourke's input, and sometimes John Porter's, as the interviews published here both testify, was significant.

So of course Lennon, Lou Reed and Dylan can call themselves 'songwriters' even though they didn't read or write music - because they created the vocal melodies and lyrics that constituted their songs.

The vocal lines that Morrissey came up with were not 'bound up with' Marr's guitar lines - they were simply inspired by his backing music. To say that Marr's music (or his co-written music to be more precise) inspired Morrissey's songs is not to say that Marr co-wrote them. Because the song is the vocal melody and lyric.
 

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