F
Fox in the Snow
Guest
Hi again, Laughing Oaf!
You didn't answer me, so I assume, you either
A) Chickened out
B) Didn't have an opportunity to read my message because that thread was very old...
Just a general comment. I pretty much agree with your idea to fight with evil ideologies of Taliban and Saddam, yet...
I think you are too optimistic about America ability to create democratic regimes in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. Democratic societies are being built by dozens if not hundreds of years... step by step... By promising to make Iraq democracy in couple of years you sound indeed like well-meaning naive "don't take NO as an answer" American innocent... Even if I myself don't like European knee-jerk anti-Americanism... they, American critics, may be not totally off mark... Native-born Americans have a tendency to be America-centric and automatically apply their cultural and social way of thinking to the countries and civilizations which are totally different from USA. The results of America trying to do good and be a world "good cop" may be very positive at one instance (Japan and South Korea experience of Democracy, the mere fact of Israel's survival up to now), OR may cause frustration and resentment of native population at some other instances... (Carpet bombing of Vietnamese peasants at 60s, Central America's 80s Nicaragua affair, Somalians irrational anti-American rampages at 90s).
You would say: "Fox, but what about Japan at 1945? They built Democracy with American help" The difference between Japan and say, Iraq and Afghanistan is basically the level of societal development. Japan were an highly developed industrial society with educated class well before 1945... Remember, Japanese humiliatingly defeated Czarist Russia at 1905, Japan scared the free world with Pearl Harbour attack... Japan was a hardcore enemy, it took huge efforts of US military and industrial machines to defeat them... The same goes for South Korea (and Taiwan)... South Koreans were industrially developed, with numerous middle class, when they moved from dictatorship to democracy at 80s with US encouragement...
Iraq is a semi-industrial, semi-feudal country... Despite of former Soviet Union help and oil $$$s, country's majority are peasants. And Afghanistan is a feudal country, hundreds of years behind Iraq... Also, read my other message "Welcome to Afghanistan... I will pass"... I was talking about hatred between Pushtuns (pro-Taliban) and ethnic Tajiks (Northern Alliance)... Karzai looks to me like CIA-trained pro-US leader, who was imposed upon Tajiks and Pushtuns by American bayonets... Remember Soviet Russia experience? Babrak Karmal, pro-Soviet Afghani puppet leader escaped back to former USSR, Najibullah, another pro-Soviet puppet, was imprisoned and executed by Northern Alliance 10 years ago and so on... Pushtuns hate ethnic Pushtun Karzai for his cooperation with Tajiks, Tajiks distrust Karzai 'cause he is Pushtun and perhaps an CIA agent... His perfect English and smooth manners reveal his training... Well, when Americans would leave Afghanistan, and they ought to sooner or later, Karzai would be killed... His ministers are already being assassinated by Tajiks... Afghans hated Taliban and Arab volunteers... They may be thankful to Americans for now, but slowly they would turn their hatreds and their guns against US occupation troops. (Remember, experience of Russia in Afghanistan at 80s and yes, Israeli experience at Lebanon at 80s. And, oops, American experience at Viet Nam at 60-70s!) The lesson is, cynical as it sounds, we, Americans must choose a right time to leave Afghans to their own devices and Bush better to turn his "royal" attention at problems at home front: recession, unemplyment, social and racial problems, and corporate greed etc... Nation building at Iraq and Afghanistan?... Soviet Union honestly tried to do this shit... Result is: all Afghanistan hates Russian guts... The truth is, Afghanistan must be ruled according to will of its native population, which means it has to be separated by 2 states: Tajik part of A. and Pushtun part of A. Both leaders of those new states must be helped military, politically and economically by US, yet Afghans must be solely in charge of their own destiny and US troops be better not to become an permanent occupation force, like Russians used to be and Israelis currently are... Again, risking to be politically incorrect, I state that Afghanistan prosperity is not worth even a single additional American life... Let's have a real popular leaders of Tajiks and Pushtuns, who would fight Taliban by themselves with American $$$s and weapons, of course... By providing Karzai with US personal guards, US totally discredited and humiliated him... American $$$s and political help is appreciated by Afghans, but not traditional American arrogance... the same kind of "white men burden" arrogance, which Brits, Israelis and Soviets always had... sorry to bring you the truth... Generally, you think USA primary motif is altruism and idealism... Well, I would say, US and any other state external affairs primary purpose is healthful egotism: "our own interests first"... That's why no one in the US except of dozens of Afghani emigres did't give a flying duck over Taliban oppression of natives... After Sept 11, US politicians all suddenly got interested in helping Afghanis... Of course, here cometh the difference between me and say, left-wing idealists Noam Chomski or Edward Said... I say the Kissengerian "realpolitic", the healthy egotism is actuallly good! So yes, I approve American intervention in Afghanistan, cause it was a self-defensive measure against Taliban inevitable future terror acts... I approve toppling of Saddam, 'cause US is better not to wait till he will develop and perhaps use an atomic bomb...
Yet, one must remember, that the role of US as a World cop breeds mountful of resentment all over the world, and US must act with respect of opinion of Europeans and Japanese and Chinese and yes, even Russians... So it all depends upon a situation.... After September 11, Bush and Cheney were totally right to ignore cautious advises of Europeans and went ahead with Afghanistan... However, USA ought not succumb to temptation to being a wise but overbearing mentor to Afghanis and Iraqis... Future democratic Palestinian, Iraqi or Afghani leaders (if those hopefully would emerge soon) ought to be helped by money, advisers and such, but their pride, independence and opinions must be respected... Afghanis disrespect peoples like Karzai because when US military is killing civilians at the wedding day (by mistake of course!), Karzai is timid and subdues, he can not and would not pound his fist on the table against his CIA superiors... People need their own leaders and their own democracy... Which in Afghani situation means America must...
1.) Let Tajiks and Pushtuns to separate;
2.) Let Tajiks, Uzbeks and Pushtuns to choose their own leaders, even if this means Afghanistan must be separated by 3 or even 4 states.
3.) Respect pride of Muslim peoples (The same goes for Israeli pride, Indian pride, Columbian pride, Sri Lanka pride etc... 250 more entries, the same as UN states...)
4.) Respect other players at Afghani chess game like Russians and yes, Pakistanis and Iranians;
5.) US military to leave Afghanistan at due time, but keep supporting pro-American yet independent leaders...
6.) Let Afghanis to build up their own country... How they will do it? Using Karl Marx, Koran, Harvard Management School guidelines... not US business, provided, of course, the current Afghani government is anti-terrorist and pro-American.
Sorry to be a loudmouth, but USA would be better not to assume we have an ability to solve all world problems by totally imposing our values and our way of life upon other peoples...
Let's go back to the Middle East, namely Israeli-Palestinian conflict...
One could say, Israel is being resented with such a venom all over the world because many of Arabs and Europeans consider her (and not totally unjustly) as an American 52nd state... Israel is a just and democratic society, yet eventually Israel must either learn to exist and prosper in this troubled region without American economic help or disappear from the political map the way Soviet Union or Broz Tito Yugoslavia disappeared. What will be on Israel place? Democratic Bi-national state (as very smart man Farid Zakharia from Newsweek suggests)? Or will Israel survive as Jewish state the same way Germany is German state? Will both Palestinians and Jews find harmony and happiness eventually... Who knows?!
I just was talking the other day with my Israeli cousins, and they kind of resent total Americanization of Israeli society... Again, they may not represent the majority opinion in their country... But think about this that way... If even some Israelis, who owe to the USA the mere fact of their survival, are resenting the Big Brother - the American Big Guy, what about South Korean students who are spending half of their semester demonstrating against USA military bases, which save them from Northern Korean agression, what about Europeans, who were saved from former Soviet Union by the USA and yet they are still resentful of America... Nations like individual peoples are proud, and their pride hurts by the mere existance of the rich and mighty neighbour, whose house has 50-odd rooms and whose riches are uncountable... In those times, America must walk the fine line between being able to defend their own interests and security, and not being perceived as a bully, who is tramping upon moral or political pride of lesser nations...
Now, I welcome readers suggestions... did you find my thoughts reasonable or baseless? What are other peoples opinions... Should we stay at Afghanistan and be a new nation-builders? Should we support current Israeli administration against Palestinian terror, or should we be more attentive to the Arab's side of the conflict and Palestinian quest for independence? Are Palestinians want to co-exist with the Jews or are they, Palestinians want to destroy Zionism and reclaim all historical Palestine to the Muslims? Should we stay out or should we go to Iraq, to prevent Saddam from developing an atomic bomb, and do you think next Iraq war is just an excuse to Rumsfield and Co to cushion up even more the American military industrial complex and put peoples attention away from the real baiting to everybody's ass American problems like recession, corporate thievery and unemployment...? I mean, is Saddam is that dangerous? Maybe Bush Jr oil family famous business relationship with Saudi royal family should be put under scrutiny... I think, Saudis are way more capable of evil and better oiled and financed, then both Iraq and Iran altogether... Also, why America let Bush Jr off SO f***ING EASY with his infamous VERY PERSONAL AND INTIMATE relationship with ENRON CEO Kenneth Lay...
When excessive patriotic fever after September 11 is getting out of our collective systems, we feel like a mental hangover, we drink cold refreshing water and then are able to start thinking again... and then we see that, apart from the glorious short-term military victory at Afghanistan over infamous Al Quaeda, other Bush Jr foreign and domestic "achievements" look at best spotty, and quite a few disagreeble things about Republicans must be aired out loud... After all, sometimes patriotism is a last refugee for a scoundrel... Real patriot must be informed, erudita, inquisitive and be able to think, doubt and criticize as opposite to blind following of a so-called puppeteered sub-intellegent leader of the free world down into recession and into tricky, poisonous and swampy Afghan maze...
You didn't answer me, so I assume, you either
A) Chickened out
B) Didn't have an opportunity to read my message because that thread was very old...
Just a general comment. I pretty much agree with your idea to fight with evil ideologies of Taliban and Saddam, yet...
I think you are too optimistic about America ability to create democratic regimes in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. Democratic societies are being built by dozens if not hundreds of years... step by step... By promising to make Iraq democracy in couple of years you sound indeed like well-meaning naive "don't take NO as an answer" American innocent... Even if I myself don't like European knee-jerk anti-Americanism... they, American critics, may be not totally off mark... Native-born Americans have a tendency to be America-centric and automatically apply their cultural and social way of thinking to the countries and civilizations which are totally different from USA. The results of America trying to do good and be a world "good cop" may be very positive at one instance (Japan and South Korea experience of Democracy, the mere fact of Israel's survival up to now), OR may cause frustration and resentment of native population at some other instances... (Carpet bombing of Vietnamese peasants at 60s, Central America's 80s Nicaragua affair, Somalians irrational anti-American rampages at 90s).
You would say: "Fox, but what about Japan at 1945? They built Democracy with American help" The difference between Japan and say, Iraq and Afghanistan is basically the level of societal development. Japan were an highly developed industrial society with educated class well before 1945... Remember, Japanese humiliatingly defeated Czarist Russia at 1905, Japan scared the free world with Pearl Harbour attack... Japan was a hardcore enemy, it took huge efforts of US military and industrial machines to defeat them... The same goes for South Korea (and Taiwan)... South Koreans were industrially developed, with numerous middle class, when they moved from dictatorship to democracy at 80s with US encouragement...
Iraq is a semi-industrial, semi-feudal country... Despite of former Soviet Union help and oil $$$s, country's majority are peasants. And Afghanistan is a feudal country, hundreds of years behind Iraq... Also, read my other message "Welcome to Afghanistan... I will pass"... I was talking about hatred between Pushtuns (pro-Taliban) and ethnic Tajiks (Northern Alliance)... Karzai looks to me like CIA-trained pro-US leader, who was imposed upon Tajiks and Pushtuns by American bayonets... Remember Soviet Russia experience? Babrak Karmal, pro-Soviet Afghani puppet leader escaped back to former USSR, Najibullah, another pro-Soviet puppet, was imprisoned and executed by Northern Alliance 10 years ago and so on... Pushtuns hate ethnic Pushtun Karzai for his cooperation with Tajiks, Tajiks distrust Karzai 'cause he is Pushtun and perhaps an CIA agent... His perfect English and smooth manners reveal his training... Well, when Americans would leave Afghanistan, and they ought to sooner or later, Karzai would be killed... His ministers are already being assassinated by Tajiks... Afghans hated Taliban and Arab volunteers... They may be thankful to Americans for now, but slowly they would turn their hatreds and their guns against US occupation troops. (Remember, experience of Russia in Afghanistan at 80s and yes, Israeli experience at Lebanon at 80s. And, oops, American experience at Viet Nam at 60-70s!) The lesson is, cynical as it sounds, we, Americans must choose a right time to leave Afghans to their own devices and Bush better to turn his "royal" attention at problems at home front: recession, unemplyment, social and racial problems, and corporate greed etc... Nation building at Iraq and Afghanistan?... Soviet Union honestly tried to do this shit... Result is: all Afghanistan hates Russian guts... The truth is, Afghanistan must be ruled according to will of its native population, which means it has to be separated by 2 states: Tajik part of A. and Pushtun part of A. Both leaders of those new states must be helped military, politically and economically by US, yet Afghans must be solely in charge of their own destiny and US troops be better not to become an permanent occupation force, like Russians used to be and Israelis currently are... Again, risking to be politically incorrect, I state that Afghanistan prosperity is not worth even a single additional American life... Let's have a real popular leaders of Tajiks and Pushtuns, who would fight Taliban by themselves with American $$$s and weapons, of course... By providing Karzai with US personal guards, US totally discredited and humiliated him... American $$$s and political help is appreciated by Afghans, but not traditional American arrogance... the same kind of "white men burden" arrogance, which Brits, Israelis and Soviets always had... sorry to bring you the truth... Generally, you think USA primary motif is altruism and idealism... Well, I would say, US and any other state external affairs primary purpose is healthful egotism: "our own interests first"... That's why no one in the US except of dozens of Afghani emigres did't give a flying duck over Taliban oppression of natives... After Sept 11, US politicians all suddenly got interested in helping Afghanis... Of course, here cometh the difference between me and say, left-wing idealists Noam Chomski or Edward Said... I say the Kissengerian "realpolitic", the healthy egotism is actuallly good! So yes, I approve American intervention in Afghanistan, cause it was a self-defensive measure against Taliban inevitable future terror acts... I approve toppling of Saddam, 'cause US is better not to wait till he will develop and perhaps use an atomic bomb...
Yet, one must remember, that the role of US as a World cop breeds mountful of resentment all over the world, and US must act with respect of opinion of Europeans and Japanese and Chinese and yes, even Russians... So it all depends upon a situation.... After September 11, Bush and Cheney were totally right to ignore cautious advises of Europeans and went ahead with Afghanistan... However, USA ought not succumb to temptation to being a wise but overbearing mentor to Afghanis and Iraqis... Future democratic Palestinian, Iraqi or Afghani leaders (if those hopefully would emerge soon) ought to be helped by money, advisers and such, but their pride, independence and opinions must be respected... Afghanis disrespect peoples like Karzai because when US military is killing civilians at the wedding day (by mistake of course!), Karzai is timid and subdues, he can not and would not pound his fist on the table against his CIA superiors... People need their own leaders and their own democracy... Which in Afghani situation means America must...
1.) Let Tajiks and Pushtuns to separate;
2.) Let Tajiks, Uzbeks and Pushtuns to choose their own leaders, even if this means Afghanistan must be separated by 3 or even 4 states.
3.) Respect pride of Muslim peoples (The same goes for Israeli pride, Indian pride, Columbian pride, Sri Lanka pride etc... 250 more entries, the same as UN states...)
4.) Respect other players at Afghani chess game like Russians and yes, Pakistanis and Iranians;
5.) US military to leave Afghanistan at due time, but keep supporting pro-American yet independent leaders...
6.) Let Afghanis to build up their own country... How they will do it? Using Karl Marx, Koran, Harvard Management School guidelines... not US business, provided, of course, the current Afghani government is anti-terrorist and pro-American.
Sorry to be a loudmouth, but USA would be better not to assume we have an ability to solve all world problems by totally imposing our values and our way of life upon other peoples...
Let's go back to the Middle East, namely Israeli-Palestinian conflict...
One could say, Israel is being resented with such a venom all over the world because many of Arabs and Europeans consider her (and not totally unjustly) as an American 52nd state... Israel is a just and democratic society, yet eventually Israel must either learn to exist and prosper in this troubled region without American economic help or disappear from the political map the way Soviet Union or Broz Tito Yugoslavia disappeared. What will be on Israel place? Democratic Bi-national state (as very smart man Farid Zakharia from Newsweek suggests)? Or will Israel survive as Jewish state the same way Germany is German state? Will both Palestinians and Jews find harmony and happiness eventually... Who knows?!
I just was talking the other day with my Israeli cousins, and they kind of resent total Americanization of Israeli society... Again, they may not represent the majority opinion in their country... But think about this that way... If even some Israelis, who owe to the USA the mere fact of their survival, are resenting the Big Brother - the American Big Guy, what about South Korean students who are spending half of their semester demonstrating against USA military bases, which save them from Northern Korean agression, what about Europeans, who were saved from former Soviet Union by the USA and yet they are still resentful of America... Nations like individual peoples are proud, and their pride hurts by the mere existance of the rich and mighty neighbour, whose house has 50-odd rooms and whose riches are uncountable... In those times, America must walk the fine line between being able to defend their own interests and security, and not being perceived as a bully, who is tramping upon moral or political pride of lesser nations...
Now, I welcome readers suggestions... did you find my thoughts reasonable or baseless? What are other peoples opinions... Should we stay at Afghanistan and be a new nation-builders? Should we support current Israeli administration against Palestinian terror, or should we be more attentive to the Arab's side of the conflict and Palestinian quest for independence? Are Palestinians want to co-exist with the Jews or are they, Palestinians want to destroy Zionism and reclaim all historical Palestine to the Muslims? Should we stay out or should we go to Iraq, to prevent Saddam from developing an atomic bomb, and do you think next Iraq war is just an excuse to Rumsfield and Co to cushion up even more the American military industrial complex and put peoples attention away from the real baiting to everybody's ass American problems like recession, corporate thievery and unemployment...? I mean, is Saddam is that dangerous? Maybe Bush Jr oil family famous business relationship with Saudi royal family should be put under scrutiny... I think, Saudis are way more capable of evil and better oiled and financed, then both Iraq and Iran altogether... Also, why America let Bush Jr off SO f***ING EASY with his infamous VERY PERSONAL AND INTIMATE relationship with ENRON CEO Kenneth Lay...
When excessive patriotic fever after September 11 is getting out of our collective systems, we feel like a mental hangover, we drink cold refreshing water and then are able to start thinking again... and then we see that, apart from the glorious short-term military victory at Afghanistan over infamous Al Quaeda, other Bush Jr foreign and domestic "achievements" look at best spotty, and quite a few disagreeble things about Republicans must be aired out loud... After all, sometimes patriotism is a last refugee for a scoundrel... Real patriot must be informed, erudita, inquisitive and be able to think, doubt and criticize as opposite to blind following of a so-called puppeteered sub-intellegent leader of the free world down into recession and into tricky, poisonous and swampy Afghan maze...
