About song Ambitious Outsiders from Maladjusted... What it's all about...

Arafat has to be blamed for current Middle East mess...

> yes all muslims are evil... or what are you trying to say exactly? of
> course it's terrible with the suicide bombers but the palestinian side is
> also suffering! just a couple of days ago a friend of mine who is in Jenin
> told me of how israely soldiers had shot 3 children!
No, I'm saying Muslim terrorists are evil, I wish to Palestinians nothing but prosperity and high middle-class standards of living and freedom and Democracy. BTW, the fact is, Palestinians have the highest average education level among other Arab nations... I don't mind to start my own biotech software company some day (my dreams) and work with both Israelis and Palestinians, cause both of those peoples have many bright programmers...
There is ALREADY ONE PALESTINIAN STATE, it is called JORDAN... Do they really need another one...?! Ask me, NO THEY DON'T!!!! But OK, I'm trying to be accomodating here, maybe yes, they need another one... and another one... (Irony!) but then Israelis must be guaranteed their security... And Arafat MUST TO GO TO THE ASHBIN OF HISTORY, and new democratic and reasonable Palestinian leaders must emerge... Arab nations have 22+ states, Jews want only one...

The facts are... Oslo agreement was very Palestinian wishes accomodating... Israelis were supposed to give Palestinians the historical Jewish land (West Bank = Judea and Samaria) and resources getting back empty promises... Faulty Land for Peace strategy... At Fall 2001 at Camp David, Barak gave Palestinians very generous and workable deal... Arafat flatly rejected the deal... 3 months later, at Taba (Egypt) negotiations under Palestinian fire, Barak kept kissing Arafat butt, he made him a deal, which was totally accomodating to Arafat and totally disastrous for Israeli security and Israeli future... At December 2001 at Taba Barak and Beilin hapless spineless Israeli government was ready to give Yassir Arafat allmost all he wanted, HALF OF JERUSALEM (EAST JERUSALEM), 97% of West Bank and Gaza, plus piece of Israeli Negev, plus all settlers being moved back within pre-1967 year borders, plus billions of dollars of Israeli economic help plus many other bonuses like free water, electricity... America and European Union promised Arafat billions of dollars to further sweeten the deal.... Not only Arafat rejected this deal, he was such an arrogant Jew-hater, he DIDN'T EVEN OFFER AN COUNTER-OFFER... Arafat wanted 5 mln Arab refugees to go within pre-1967 Israeli border and squeeze out ethnic Jews to the sea and to the Lod airport to pack their bags... Finally, majority of Israelis realized, that Arafat's goal in life to "liberate" all of Palestine (Eretz Isroel) from Jews, and they chose Ariel Sharon, right winger... Now, Palestinians have to blame themselves, why Israelis chose hard-line Sharon... By rejecting noble if amateurish Barak peace gestures, Palestinians in a fact declared War of Attrition on Israelis... Palestinian terror followed. Israeli heroic IDF (Israeli Army) self-defence actions followed... Now, welcome to the idiotic Yasser Arafat's and Barhouti's and Mohammed Dahlan's current War of Attritions between Palestinian terrorists (all kind of truly evil suicide bombers and shooters and stubbers and so on and so forth), who are killing civilian Jews within pre-1967 Israeli borders and Israeli self-defence forces (IDF)...

War is a f***ing ugly business...
Now, PLO thugs like to shot to Israelis using Arab civilians as a human shield... I wonder, was your Jenin friend's account accurate, and what were the exact circumstances of children being shot... or does your friend exists at all...? In any case, Israelis are acting all the time at self-defence, if they are being shot at, they return fire to the enemy... In war situation, civilian casualties is a sad sad fact of life... Now, I'm sure US Army, while fighting with Bin Laden at Afghanistan, encountered situations, where civilian casualties from US bombs were happening... I'm sure US tried to keep those casualties to minimum, yet the sad truth it is impossible to avoid civilian casualties totally... Israelis would like to live in peace and quiet, yet when Israelis are haunting terrorists, some civilian casualties may happen... Yet I assure you, Israelis ARE DOING ALL POSSIBLE EFFORTS TO AVOID ARAB CIVILIAN CASUALTIES, and Americans in Afghanistan are doing the same... Now, example of PLO PR lies: PLO states that at Jenin refugee camp Israelis killed hundred of civilians... But the truth was, all casualties were Israeli combatants and Palestinian armed terrorist militants... There are 500+ Israelis killed so far, and I blame Arafat... there are 1500+ Palestinians dead, and I blame Arafat!
 
My interpretation

I thought it was about drug dealers, peddling their wares to the kids (hence watching the school bus).
 
GD on a soapbox

The beauty of Morrissey's music is that it's open to interpretation to the listener. We could sit here and debate the meaning of this song, but all we will end up with are 20 very different interpretations. The listener's interpretation will be based on his/her own life experience. You may not agree with it, but hey, no one is saying you have to!

You've got to tell me though, where in the song is a child kidnapped or killed?? I'm trying to see your point of view here, but it's not easy. Also, could you please explain how this debate has anything to do with US obsession with themselves?? THAT is too funny!

> Oh christ here we go again.... US obsession with themselves now they have
> been the victims of the type of terrorism us other countries have coped
> with for years (albeit on a much more horrific scale - total sympathy for
> 9/11, no disrespect for that AT ALL).

> How on EARTH can you interpret this song as either about terrorism or
> homosexuality? Well ok, I can understand the gay thing fair enough. But to
> me this song is very obviously about kidnappers.

> It's about suburbanites, living in their sad little homes all cosy with
> their little houses and little cars 'bolt lock your doors, alarm your
> cars'. Same as 'smiling kids'. It's mocking the cosy world of suburbia.
> They are GIVING to the kidnappers/mudereres/paedophiles by having
> children, providing the children for them to kill etc. THAT is why they're
> keeping the population down idiots! They are child murderers. We already
> know this is a topic which touches Moz because he was a child in
> Manchester at the time of the Moors murders.

> They pay their taxes (another nod to the attitude of suburbanites) but the
> police, who would protect the children from such people, are waylaid. SO
> THE KIDNAPPERS/MURDERERS/PAEDOPHILES CAN GET TO THEM EASIER. Simple. They
> know when the school bus comes and goes because they watch them, planning
> their move.

> This song is written from the point of view of one of these disgusting
> people, mocking the suburbanites for the naivety of their attitudes.

> Some people really worry me in their interpretation of very simple lyrics.
> Having said that, I agree with the basic point about the name of the
> website. Strange choice. However it's a good site and I am grateful for
> their newsletter.

> GD
 
Re: GD on a soapbox

> The beauty of Morrissey's music is that it's open to interpretation to the
> listener. We could sit here and debate the meaning of this song, but all
> we will end up with are 20 very different interpretations. The listener's
> interpretation will be based on his/her own life experience. You may not
> agree with it, but hey, no one is saying you have to!

You're so correct. I always thought that this song was about criminals, and in paricular people who kill children, sung from their from their perspective. It never would have entered my head in a million years that somebody else could listen to it and see things about terrorism or about being gay, but there you go.

"No doubt there can be more to a book than the author conciously puts there."

-Thomas Hardy
 
Was this song against homophobic false fears?

> The beauty of Morrissey's music is that it's open to interpretation to the
> listener. We could sit here and debate the meaning of this song, but all
> we will end up with are 20 very different interpretations. The listener's
> interpretation will be based on his/her own life experience. You may not
> agree with it, but hey, no one is saying you have to!

> You've got to tell me though, where in the song is a child kidnapped or
> killed?? I'm trying to see your point of view here, but it's not easy.
> Also, could you please explain how this debate has anything to do with US
> obsession with themselves?? THAT is too funny!
Good point, Lumberjack!
Moz lyrics is provocative in a good way, it makes listeners think and argue about social and political and economic issues... Thanx gawd Moz lyrics is not an your typical Music Industry pulp: "oh baby, I love you, you love me, let's be like a happy family".. LOL In my past, I compared Moz with Bill Maher, the host of Politically Incorrect show... Maybe that's what Moz had in mind while composing AO song: to stir up debates about parental fears of terrorism or drug-dealing, or, maybe he meant to discuss say HOMOPHOBY AND FALSE FEARS OF GAYS AND LESBIANS BY SOME PREJUDICED MY-BUD-MY-GUN-MY-GOLF-AND-MY-NFL AMERICANS. Sadly, some people are still equating gays with perverts... Sadly, there are plenty of those people around America at 21 century... Sigh... Sometimes, I go to the www.thedent.com Tori Amos website, 'cause Tori is like Moz; her lyrics are also very literate and controversial, and she likes to make her listener think and argue... That's why I like both Tori Amos and Moz: they both like to challenge their listeners mental facilities... Am I making sense?
 
I know when the schoolbus comes and goes

> Good point, Lumberjack!
> Moz lyrics is provocative in a good way, it makes listeners think and
> argue about social and political and economic issues... Thanx gawd Moz
> lyrics is not an your typical Music Industry pulp: "oh baby, I love
> you, you love me, let's be like a happy family".. LOL In my past, I
> compared Moz with Bill Maher, the host of Politically Incorrect show...
> Maybe that's what Moz had in mind while composing AO song: to stir up
> debates about parental fears of terrorism or drug-dealing, or, maybe he
> meant to discuss say HOMOPHOBY AND FALSE FEARS OF GAYS AND LESBIANS BY
> SOME PREJUDICED MY-BUD-MY-GUN-MY-GOLF-AND-MY-NFL AMERICANS. Sadly, some
> people are still equating gays with perverts... Sadly, there are plenty of
> those people around America at 21 century... Sigh... Sometimes, I go to
> the www.thedent.com Tori Amos website, 'cause Tori is like Moz; her
> lyrics are also very literate and controversial, and she likes to make her
> listener think and argue... That's why I like both Tori Amos and Moz: they
> both like to challenge their listeners mental facilities... Am I making
> sense?

You make perfect sense. Morrissey's lyrics are meant to stir thought. Thank god he's not just another NSYNC or Britney Spears, how boring would that be!?!!

I can tell you, based on my own life experience, that sadly there are many people around who still equate gays to perverted child molesters. Sad fact but so true. Me and my partner, mate, boyfriend (whatever you want to call him) have been together for 8 years. We decided to get a house together in a quiet, family-oriented suburb. Neither one of us are into the whole gay scene/gay lifestyle...we just wanted a normal life like everyone else. Think the neighbors would except an upper-middle class, clean cut gay couple with traditional values?? LOL, Hell no! It's funny watching the children ride there bikes up and down the street...they stay on the sidewalk until they get near our house (which by the way is the cleanest/best kept on the block) then they go off onto the street. Parental warnings? Stay away from the homos? Who knows. We've been here a couple years and the evil smirks and fingers pointing hasn't stopped yet.

I know when the schoolbus comes and goes because I work from home, not because I'm a perverted psycho-killer.
 
Re: GD on a soapbox

Did I say a child is kidnapped or killed? READ what I said.

> This song is written from the point of view of one of these disgusting
> people, mocking the suburbanites for the naivety of their attitudes.

Try reading paras 2 & 3, then re-read the actual lyrics before blindly interpreting your original view.

As for the US thing, I really can't be bothered to go into a long explanation, just to say it's typical that certain Americans are interpreting the lyrics to have something to do with terrorism. A year ago it would never occur to them, because even though terrorism was out there in many many countries, it hadn't really affected the US so they ignored it (as the US does on many things). Now it has directly affected them they are obsessed. There. The flag worshipping U-S-A brigade may start now.........

GD

> The beauty of Morrissey's music is that it's open to interpretation to the
> listener. We could sit here and debate the meaning of this song, but all
> we will end up with are 20 very different interpretations. The listener's
> interpretation will be based on his/her own life experience. You may not
> agree with it, but hey, no one is saying you have to!

> You've got to tell me though, where in the song is a child kidnapped or
> killed?? I'm trying to see your point of view here, but it's not easy.
> Also, could you please explain how this debate has anything to do with US
> obsession with themselves?? THAT is too funny!
 
Re: GD on a soapbox

Have you always been so angry?



> Did I say a child is kidnapped or killed? READ what I said.

> Try reading paras 2 & 3, then re-read the actual lyrics before blindly
> interpreting your original view.

> As for the US thing, I really can't be bothered to go into a long
> explanation, just to say it's typical that certain Americans are
> interpreting the lyrics to have something to do with terrorism. A year ago
> it would never occur to them, because even though terrorism was out there
> in many many countries, it hadn't really affected the US so they ignored
> it (as the US does on many things). Now it has directly affected them they
> are obsessed. There. The flag worshipping U-S-A brigade may start
> now.........

> GD
 
Re: GD on a soapbox

Pretty much, although I like to feel it's increased in the last couple of years....

> Have you always been so angry?

>
 
Re: Was this song against homophobic false fears?

>Tori Amos

(is also a big Tori fan)
 
> just a couple of days ago a friend of mine who is in Jenin
> told me of how israely soldiers had shot 3 children!

Is there a news report on this you can link me to?
 
Oops, typo, Camp David was at 2000, Taba negotiations were at December 2000. Sorry!
 
Re: HOMOSEXUAL ANTHEM

No the said truth is that most American's have no clue about our nation debt.
Clinton completely streched our economy like a rubber band, we ran up record debt and backlash resession has been hard hitting in the US.

Most Americans have no clue what the public debt is and why it's really hurting us now.

Why is america so clueless, because we have a press that is run for profit
they get higher ratings, more sales, if they report about clinton and monica than if the report any real hard news.

In the wise words of Jello Biafra "BECOME THE MEDIA!"

Cheers,

LWF

> People like you are what gives the US a bad name. I hate Bono too btw. I
> trust you're being satirical, but if you are serious I just sincerely hope
> you don't represent the majority, you piece of shit.
 
Re: GD on a soapbox

> Pretty much, although I like to feel it's increased in the last couple of
> years....

Wow, really? Well then, carry on.
 
8 year Anniversary after Palestinian terrorists massacred 86 at Buenos Aires

> Now Moz's other line from this song is "and you are giving, giving,
> and we are receiving, JUST KEEPING POPULATION DOWN"... Well,
> Americans, Israelis, Russians, Argentinians are giving up civilian
> casualties... and Chechen, Saudi Arabian and Palestinian MUSLIM terrorists
> are receiving, receiving innocent victims to glorify women-hating,
> Jesus-hating, Jews-hating, America-hating, progress-hating Barbaric Sunni
> Wahhabic brand of Islam, which is stuck at Dark Ages.... Those Muslims...
> are just getting population down...
Palestinian Terrorist Massacre at Buenos Aires at 1994.

This summer's Argentinean birthright delegation commemorated the eighth anniversary of the bombing of the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires yesterday afternoon. On Tisha Be'Av 1994, Islamic terrorists drove a van loaded with between 100 kg. and 400 kg. of explosives into the building, killing 86 people and wounding more than 300.

The 70 Argentinean university students spent the afternoon touring the Mount Herzl Military Cemetery in Jerusalem. The tour ended with a ceremony near the monument for victims of terrorism, where somber music was played, speeches were made, and a small memorial surrounded by candles was placed on the ground.
Most of the students were from Buenos Aires.

"I was in Buenos Aires when it happened," said Edit Horen, a birthright participant. "My grandmother was around the corner from AMIA [the community center], on a bus. We couldn't find her for six hours, and we thought the worst had happened. When we found her, we discovered she had suffered from shock... Everyone had a friend of a friend or a relative who was killed or hurt in the bombing," she said.

(From Jerusalem Post internet edition, July 18)
 
Re: HOMOSEXUAL ANTHEM

> Fair enough. But there's plenty of stars who think their God's gift; he's
> not the only guilty party there. At least Bono is trying to do something
> positive with his star power. How many actors, musicians, etc put the
> massive amount of time and energy Bono puts into his causes? It takes guts
> to put yourself out there like that.
Here is my problem with Bono. 1. His visit with Paul O'Neil was nothing more than a photo op using US taxpayers money. 2. he wants the US to give more to Africa for AIDS research. The US already gives more than half of research money and companies such as Pfiesser and Merck donate most of the medicines for AIDS. This "war on terror" is costing the US taxpayers 2 Billion dollars a MONTH!! Most of the donated Money is going towards African Governements that are quite corrupt.
 
Re: Arafat has to be blamed for current Middle East mess...

There are
> 500+ Israelis killed so far, and I blame Arafat... there are 1500+
> Palestinians dead, and I blame Arafat!
Sharon is a pig and has no respect for woman. He sexually harasses Condaleesa Rice and then comes here asking for help.
 
and I just thought it was a song about taxes

from the Tax-man's perspective. Or is that too easy?

Morrissey doesn't like authority and when these songs were written he'd been arguing about handing over a load of cash to the other Smiths. I don't suppose he likes tax people either. Think how many songs mention people money-grabbing. It's in the same vein.
 
Bono, AIDS, and Africa

> Here is my problem with Bono. 1. His visit with Paul O'Neil was nothing
> more than a photo op using US taxpayers money.

That photo op helped to raise awareness about the AIDS crisis in Africa. (Twenty-five million Africans are HIV-positive and they will leave behind 40 million AIDS orphans by the end of the decade.) It takes a bit of "flash" to get the US media to report something.

2. he wants the US to give
> more to Africa for AIDS research. The US already gives more than half of
> research money and companies such as Pfiesser and Merck donate most of the
> medicines for AIDS.

Yet, the per head contribution of US taxpayers towards the crisis is less than taxpayers in other 1st world countries. It's at the bottom among some 20 donor nations. Think about it.

On a similiar note: "Among industrialized countries, the U.S. continues to rank lowest with 0.1 percent of its GNP in official development assistance, far below the UN target of 0.7 percent."

Most of the donated Money is going
> towards African Governements that are quite corrupt.

But the extra US money comes with conditions with the money being given only to countries that are working to fight corruption and reform their economies.

I'm not saying that Bono, Bill Gates, et al have the perfect plan for helping Africa, but at least they're thinking about it and trying to use their power for good. I mean, it'd be real easy for Bono to just spend his free time in a house in LA, tanning by the pool, and drinking lagers at the Cat and Fiddle. But he's decided to dedicate a large part of his free time to causes such as Africa and I don't see why everyone's so quick to just point out the negatives of taking this road less traveled.
 
lame joke

> There are
> Sharon is a pig and has no respect for woman. He sexually harasses
> Condaleesa Rice and then comes here asking for help.
If this was an attempt in humour, then it was a very laboured one... However, if you have a real story to tell, please provide us with Internet link to this story, otherwise dude, you ought to enroll to be a stand-up comedy writer to David Letterman, cause both of yours and his other writers' jokes are massively lame.
 
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