Derby 06/12/83 running order

[AntonyThePony]

I'm slightly confused as to the meaning of this sentence, taken from Simon Goddard's 'Songs That Saved Your Life'.

(Regarding You've Got Everything Now and the Derby gig)
The song had been the third to last played at the gig itself, yet the farcical stage invasion it inspired forced the programme makers to re-edit the running order placing 'You've Got Everything Now' as the grand finale.

passionsjustlikemine.com lists the running order at the gig as
Handsome Devil
Still Ill
This Charming Man
Pretty Girls Make Graves
Reel Around The Fountain
What Difference Does It Make?
Miserable Lie
This Night Has Opened My Eyes
Hand In Glove
These Things Take Time
/You've Got Everything Now
(YGEN as an encore, as shown on the TV programme)

Is Goddard saying YGEN was actually played 9th and when the stage was cleared they played the final two songs (thereby contradicting passionsjustlikemine.com)? I always assumed this is what it meant, but since passionsjustlikemine.com doesn't mention it at all I'm confused.

Funnily 'Songs That Saved Your Life' gets the date of the gig wrong (it says it was 07/12) which is also odd.

I just wondered since there's another thread suggesting this gig may have seen the first Smiths stage invasion (during Hand in Glove), and unless I've misunderstood, Goddard claims YGEN's invasion took place before HIG.

It'd be nice if someone could explain, and sorry if it's obvious and I'm being an idiot

 

[Abrahan]

i grabbed my copy of The Smiths: the Visual Documentary by Rogan and found it to be listed under 7 December:

 

[Old Mathew]

These are interesting points. Maybe you could repost them in my original thread so that we can keep the conversation together? If Goddard is right here, then it blows the whole first stage invader idea away.

But... why would these people have all of a sudden gotten on stage? It does seem, logically, that one person would have needed to have first inspired it. But maybe not.

 

[Old Mathew]

Actually, a quick Google search shows Goddard is wrong.

See the setlist here:

http://www.setlist.fm/setlist/the-smiths/1983/assembly-rooms-derby-england-63d7daaf.html

I'm not certain that this is an actual copy of the setlist. In fact, the advanced printing of the sheet's font suggests it's not... in 1983, most printers were dot matrix.

But... watch the end of These Things Take Time, which Passions Just Like Mine suggests was played after Hand in Glove:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVx2EdJumSA

At the end of which, Morrissey utters his "goodbye" which was standard for him at the end of the main set.

The video then cuts to the Smiths retaking the stage for their Encore... and Morrissey stumbles to stage left.

Then watch the beginning of You've Got Everything Now... in which Morrissey starts the song at the exact same place as he ended the clip of These Things... ie, downstage left:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRIwSvQrbmg&NR=1

While certainly the BBC could edit the running order of the gig, it would be pretty miraculous editing to do so and have Moz end one song and then begin the next in the exact same spot on stage.

It seems clear that Goddard here is wrong, and while a stage invader may have tackled Morrissey at a previous gig, at Derby Hand in Glove preceded You've Got Everything.... and Passions Just like mine probably has the correct running order.

 

[guidedbyvoices]

I'm not certain that this is an actual copy of the setlist. In fact, the advanced printing of the sheet's font suggests it's not... in 1983, most printers were dot matrix.

setlist.fm is just a site that takes info from contributors, a la wikipedia, and posts it. all setlists on that site have that font, it's just made to kind of look like a real one, but it 1000% is not.

 

[Still ILL]

'Back To The Old House' was on the setlist but was never played due to the stage invasion. It's a pity as it's a beautiful song!

 

[AntonyThePony]

I think it's safe to say that Goddard is wrong then, but you'd think he'd do some proper research before bringing out a book. I wonder where the idea even came from. I got Goddard's Mozipedia for Christmas, now I feel I might as well throw it out of the window!

 

[AntonyThePony]

i grabbed my copy of The Smiths: the Visual Documentary by Rogan and found it to be listed under 7 December:

After reading Songs That Saved Your Life, I also thought it was 7 Dec since it says it several times. However on passionsjustlikemine.com it says something like "...although this gig is often misrepresented as being held on 7 December..."
Perhaps the gig was on the 6th but it was shown on TV on the 7th

 

[Abrahan]

After reading Songs That Saved Your Life, I also thought it was 7 Dec since it says it several times. However on passionsjustlikemine.com it says something like "...although this gig is often misrepresented as being held on 7 December..."
Perhaps the gig was on the 6th but it was shown on TV on the 7th

i will have to look again but i want to say it had a listing for events on 6 December as well.

 

[Kewpie]

i will have to look again but i want to say it had a listing for events on 6 December as well.

Rogan was wrong, the gig was on 6th December 1983, first on air date was 9th December.

http://www.passionsjustlikemine.com/live/smiths-g831206.htm

 

[DAVIE]

So was Hand In Glove the last song played that day?

 

[AntonyThePony]

The set list for Hacienda 24/11/83 (the gig immediately before Derby) was

Handsome Devil
Still Ill
This Charming Man
Pretty Girls Make Graves
Reel Around The Fountain
Miserable Lie
This Night Has Opened My Eyes
What Difference Does It Make?
Hand In Glove
You've Got Everything Now
/These Things Take Time
/This Charming Man
//Accept Yourself
//Hand In Glove

Here These Things Take Time and Hand In Glove are encores, played after YGEN. Perhaps Goddard assumed the set for Derby stayed in the same order (with the omission of Accept Yourself and TCM as encores) and thats why he says YGEN was 3rd last at Derby.

As for the date thing, I really don't understand why both Simon Goddard and Johnny Rogan would get it wrong.

 

[Stephane]

I'm actually still slightly confused about this one. I am sure about the date, which is the 6th, but there is confusion about the setlist. Have look at the setlist for the cameraman, which I've attached here. It differs from the broadcast setlist which I still keep as the 'official' one on PJLM, for the time being.

Stephane

 

[Old Mathew]

I think the simplest explanation is correct -- which is that the video was not re-edited, nor was there any song played after the stage invasion.

Stephane's setlist seems to indicate that Hand in Glove was never meant to be an encore.

Instead, it appears they played Hand in Glove 9th, as the setlist indicated, and then brought forward These Things Take Time as their final song.

Morrissey says goodbye, then they come back out for perhaps a planned two song encore of YGEN and Back to the Old House.

Stage invasion ensues, and then Back to the Old House is dropped.

All of this is born out in the video.

At the end of Hand in Glove, Morrissey goes to the drum riser for a drink of water.

At the very beginning of These Things Take Time, there he is, at the drum riser.

At the end of TTTT, he says goodbye and the band exits stage right. The crowd chants for more, and they reenter from stage right. Morrissey slips down toward stage left as YGEN begins.

The stage invasion ends the show.

Does anyone really believe that after that stage invasion, the presenters said, "Okay, all you fifty people, get off the stage, let's clean this up a bit, and then let's do one final encore?"

Or that after that stage invasion, anyone in the Smiths would think, "oh, we can top that! Let's do one more song."

The simplest explanation is that Goddard is wrong on this one, having assumed the Smiths would play the exact same set that they'd been playing. But for whatever reason (probably because they knew it would be televised) they mixed it up just slightly.

Obviously the BBC could have re-edited the order, but again you have the problem of the band members appearing in exactly the right places as the next songs start.

I think the visual and common-sense evidence supports Stephane's setlist on Passions Just Like Mine as correct, with the last three songs being Hand in Glove, These Things Take Time, encore: YGEN.

 

[DAVIE]

I think the simplest explanation is correct -- which is that the video was not re-edited, nor was there any song played after the stage invasion.

Stephane's setlist seems to indicate that Hand in Glove was never meant to be an encore.

Instead, it appears they played Hand in Glove 9th, as the setlist indicated, and then brought forward These Things Take Time as their final song.

Morrissey says goodbye, then they come back out for perhaps a planned two song encore of YGEN and Back to the Old House.

Stage invasion ensues, and then Back to the Old House is dropped.

All of this is born out in the video.

At the end of Hand in Glove, Morrissey goes to the drum riser for a drink of water.

At the very beginning of These Things Take Time, there he is, at the drum riser.

At the end of TTTT, he says goodbye and the band exits stage right. The crowd chants for more, and they reenter from stage right. Morrissey slips down toward stage left as YGEN begins.

The stage invasion ends the show.

Does anyone really believe that after that stage invasion, the presenters said, "Okay, all you fifty people, get off the stage, let's clean this up a bit, and then let's do one final encore?"

Or that after that stage invasion, anyone in the Smiths would think, "oh, we can top that! Let's do one more song."

The simplest explanation is that Goddard is wrong on this one, having assumed the Smiths would play the exact same set that they'd been playing. But for whatever reason (probably because they knew it would be televised) they mixed it up just slightly.

Obviously the BBC could have re-edited the order, but again you have the problem of the band members appearing in exactly the right places as the next songs start.

I think the visual and common-sense evidence supports Stephane's setlist on Passions Just Like Mine as correct, with the last three songs being Hand in Glove, These Things Take Time, encore: YGEN.

Agreed!

 

[kissmyshadestoo]

I'm actually still slightly confused about this one. I am sure about the date, which is the 6th, but there is confusion about the setlist. Have look at the setlist for the cameraman, which I've attached here. It differs from the broadcast setlist which I still keep as the 'official' one on PJLM, for the time being.

Stephane

Where'd you get that pic at? That'd be a nice piece of memorabilia to have!

 

[Abrahan]

i wonder if this is the same "gary" as that setlist:

 

[DAVIE]

i wonder if this is the same "gary" as that setlist:

New rumour: Gary and Morrissey had a relationship!

 

[Stephane]

Old Mathew, your explanation makes a lot of sense. I knew there was a reason why I didn't adapt the setlist to the camera setlist. I remember studying the video and deciding on what was the definitive setlist.

As for people surprised that Rogan would have a setlist wrong: there are many many mistakes in his setlists. Most are based on bootlegs of shows, so they can be incomplete, in a mixed order, or incorrectly dated. I'm sure some of those mistakes are found in the setlists on "Passions Just Like Mine" as well. It's just that for some obscure shows, these are all we have. I probably have copies of 99.5% of all Smiths bootlegs out there, and I've listened and studied all of them, so the setlists on PJLM as still the closest to accuracy as possible.

As for the date being the 6th instead of the 7th, look at the ticket scan below.

Stephane

 

[DAVIE]

Old Mathew, your explanation makes a lot of sense. I knew there was a reason why I didn't adapt the setlist to the camera setlist. I remember studying the video and deciding on what was the definitive setlist.

As for people surprised that Rogan would have a setlist wrong: there are many many mistakes in his setlists. Most are based on bootlegs of shows, so they can be incomplete, in a mixed order, or incorrectly dated. I'm sure some of those mistakes are found in the setlists on "Passions Just Like Mine" as well. It's just that for some obscure shows, these are all we have. I probably have copies of 99.5% of all Smiths bootlegs out there, and I've listened and studied all of them, so the setlists on PJLM as still the closest to accuracy as possible.

As for the date being the 6th instead of the 7th, look at the ticket scan below.

Stephane

Well whatever the set lists are, you are still a genius Stephane and deserve a lot more bloody credit for all the things you've done...