Brutality in Gaza

[nogodsnomasters85]

I'm amazed I couldn't find any threads on this, so here goes.

(Excerpts from Democracy Now!) Israeli Attack Intensifies; Tanks Enter Khan Yunis
Israel has broadened its attack on Gaza as Israeli tanks have entered Khan Yunis, Gaza’s second largest city. In northern Gaza, witnesses reported wave after wave of bombing strikes accompanied by gunfire from helicopters and artillery from land and sea. On Monday, Israel rejected European calls for a ceasefire.

Israel Bombs UN School, Three Killed
More than forty Palestinians were killed in Gaza yesterday, almost half of them children. Five civilians were killed early today when a shell fired by an Israeli ship hit their house. The United Nations said three Palestinians died last night when an Israeli bomb hit a UN school where hundreds of Gazans had sought refuge. UN officials say they provided their location coordinates to Israel’s army to ensure that their buildings in Gaza are not targeted.

Doctor: Most Palestinian Casualties Are Civilians
Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian doctor in Gaza, told the BBC that Palestinians civilians are being particularly hard hit.

Dr. Mads Gilbert: "The statistics are clear. Among the 2,400-2,500 injured, 45 percent are women and children. And then there are also all the civilian men. So the large majority of the injured, the victims, are women, men and children civilian. Among the the killed, 25 percent of the killed are children and women, and among the children, today, it was—this morning, it was 801 children either killed or injured. 101 children had been killed.”

Dr. Gilbert also criticized Israel for claiming there is no humanitarian crisis.

Dr. Mads Gilbert: “I ask, where is the international community, who has this big organization to come to disasters. We are two doctors from the West. Where are the others? They are not let in, because the Israelis say there is no disaster. Now, how can they know? They never came here, they never saw. They don’t care. So this is the worst man-made disaster for the time I can think of.”

Red Cross: Gaza Is a “Full-Blown" Humanitarian Crisis
Earlier today, the International Committee of the Red Cross said Gaza was now in a “full-blown” humanitarian crisis. Over the past eleven days, at least 573 Palestinians have been killed with more than 2,500 wounded. Four Israeli soldiers were also killed on Monday, bringing the Israeli death toll to eight. The Israeli military says the four soldiers died in two separate friendly fire incidents. Militants with Hamas continue to fire rockets into Israel. One struck an empty kindergarten in Ashdod.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/6/headlines#1

More on Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_155497.html

And Al Jazeera: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...237167997.html

Please Sign this Petition! http://www.iacenter.org/gazapetition/

[Not Right in the Head]

To put this conflict in terms that I can understand, the Gazans were trolling the Israelis, and the Israeli moderators overreacted and slapped them with a pretty stiff ban, right?

[IDon'tOweYouAnything23]

To put this conflict in terms that I can understand, the Gazans were trolling the Israelis, and the Israeli moderators overreacted and slapped them with a pretty stiff ban, right?

Difference is, people died/are dying

[I am a Ghost]

I'm amazed I couldn't find any threads on this, so here goes.

(Excerpts from Democracy Now!) Israeli Attack Intensifies; Tanks Enter Khan Yunis
Israel has broadened its attack on Gaza as Israeli tanks have entered Khan Yunis, Gaza’s second largest city. In northern Gaza, witnesses reported wave after wave of bombing strikes accompanied by gunfire from helicopters and artillery from land and sea. On Monday, Israel rejected European calls for a ceasefire.

Israel Bombs UN School, Three Killed
More than forty Palestinians were killed in Gaza yesterday, almost half of them children. Five civilians were killed early today when a shell fired by an Israeli ship hit their house. The United Nations said three Palestinians died last night when an Israeli bomb hit a UN school where hundreds of Gazans had sought refuge. UN officials say they provided their location coordinates to Israel’s army to ensure that their buildings in Gaza are not targeted.

Doctor: Most Palestinian Casualties Are Civilians
Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian doctor in Gaza, told the BBC that Palestinians civilians are being particularly hard hit.

Dr. Mads Gilbert: "The statistics are clear. Among the 2,400-2,500 injured, 45 percent are women and children. And then there are also all the civilian men. So the large majority of the injured, the victims, are women, men and children civilian. Among the the killed, 25 percent of the killed are children and women, and among the children, today, it was—this morning, it was 801 children either killed or injured. 101 children had been killed.”

Dr. Gilbert also criticized Israel for claiming there is no humanitarian crisis.

Dr. Mads Gilbert: “I ask, where is the international community, who has this big organization to come to disasters. We are two doctors from the West. Where are the others? They are not let in, because the Israelis say there is no disaster. Now, how can they know? They never came here, they never saw. They don’t care. So this is the worst man-made disaster for the time I can think of.”

Red Cross: Gaza Is a “Full-Blown" Humanitarian Crisis
Earlier today, the International Committee of the Red Cross said Gaza was now in a “full-blown” humanitarian crisis. Over the past eleven days, at least 573 Palestinians have been killed with more than 2,500 wounded. Four Israeli soldiers were also killed on Monday, bringing the Israeli death toll to eight. The Israeli military says the four soldiers died in two separate friendly fire incidents. Militants with Hamas continue to fire rockets into Israel. One struck an empty kindergarten in Ashdod.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/6/headlines#1

More on Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_155497.html

And Al Jazeera: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...237167997.html

Please Sign this Petition! http://www.iacenter.org/gazapetition/

There's a thread in "The Pigsty", but I'm afraid it's full of wankers posting pictures of "hot" IDF female soldiers. Meanwhile, children are being murdered daily....

[theneverplayedsymphony]

Hamas sacrificed those poor Palestinians and Israel rose to it. Now hundreds of Palestinians are dead, Hamas barely killed any Israelis (not that I'd like them to, it's just, what do they think they're achieving), why won't they have a ceasefire?
I'm not saying Israel is in the right, I think they're in the wrong, of course, they often kill and arrest innocent people, but Hamas should.... well, you know! I'm not very good at expressing feelings on these kinds of things, especially not in type, even though I do have very strong feelings about such things.

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

I'm amazed I couldn't find any threads on this, so here goes.

there is a 'Gaza thread'
http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showthread.php?t=94186

[nogodsnomasters85]

[nogodsnomasters85]

Hamas sacrificed those poor Palestinians and Israel rose to it. Now hundreds of Palestinians are dead, Hamas barely killed any Israelis (not that I'd like them to, it's just, what do they think they're achieving), why won't they have a ceasefire?
I'm not saying Israel is in the right, I think they're in the wrong, of course, they often kill and arrest innocent people, but Hamas should.... well, you know! I'm not very good at expressing feelings on these kinds of things, especially not in type, even though I do have very strong feelings about such things.

Actually, Israel started this most recent conflict, a fact which has unsurprisingly received little attention in the media, particularly in America. The ceasefire had been going on for several months, since November, i believe, until Israeli troops went into Gaza and killed six or seven militants, to which Hamas responded with rocket attacks. Also, before this Hamas' leadership was suggesting it would be open to peace with Israel, along the 1967 established legal borders. Which is the general international consensus in the UN, and the Arab League. This is voted on almost every year in the UN, with overwhelming support, which the United States has consistantly blocked. According to Israeli newspapers the Israeli government was planning this assault during the ceasefire, before all of this happened. The Israeli death toll is 14, 4 by friendly fire, and an estimated 14,000 Palestinian dead, hundreds, proably thousands more injured. This is a grotesque human rights violation, and it's very clear who is at fault.

[Buzzetta]

I have not done a complete 360 degree eye roll in awhile. Neat trick.

Glad to see Israel taking appropriate matters.

[MunchyBrain]

Glad to see Israel taking appropriate matters.

That was such an ignorant comment it sounded like sarcasm. Unfortunately, I doubt it.

[Buzzetta]

That was such an ignorant comment it sounded like sarcasm. Unfortunately, I doubt it.

No, I would say that accessing the situation based on a body count is ignorant which it seems is what you are doing. If anything I am disappointed that Israel is not doing more.

[MunchyBrain]

No, I would say that accessing the situation based on a body count is ignorant which it seems is what you are doing. If anything I am disappointed that Israel is not doing more.

I hadn't even posted on this thread...! How can that be what I'm doing?

[nogodsnomasters85]

No, I would say that accessing the situation based on a body count is ignorant which it seems is what you are doing. If anything I am disappointed that Israel is not doing more.

No, the body count is merely telling, but thats' only one facet. That the Palestinian dead outnumber the Isreali's 100 TO ONE, four of the Israeli soldiers being killed by friendly fire, mind, is certainly relevant, and illuminating. Of course thats' disregarding probably a thousand or so maimed, paralyzed, etc. If Israel wants to place blame, she need only look in the mirror. The media coverage in this country is almost comical, the american press is either unwilling or unable to provide honest coverage of the subject. Hamas's leadesrhip has opened the door for peace, in fact that was one of the main reasons for this military invasion/assault, to counter what the Israeli's call a "peace offensive." Mind, this is also the position of Iran, and the rest of the Arab League, not to mention the United Nations which votes in favor of the peace resolution every year. I believe this past year it was 164 to 7, so theres' no debate, the international community, the middle east, the palestinians are all very clear on they're desire for a peaceful resolution and support for international law. This thing was planned last spring, they were juust waiting for an excuse to open fire, until this november when Hamas RETALIATED after Israeli troops went into they're territory. It is also important to note these rocket attacks wrre presaged by a blockade of Gaza, which began the humanitarian crisis, blocking the entry of water, food, and medical supplies, called "the destruction of a civilization" by former high commissioner for human rights, Mary Robinson. Let's not forget in 2004, the International Court of Justice rulede that Israeli settlements in Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the West Bank, are totally illegal. The Palestinians have even offered concessions, that they're willing to let Israel keep a certain amount of the conquered territories. There is a very clear barrier to peace in the region, namely the United States, for our support is vital for Israel to continue to violate international law, we set the boundries. These protestations of victimhood from the superpower in the region, commanding such a large and most technologically advanced military,...is laughable.

[Buzzetta]

No, the body count is merely telling, but thats' only one facet. That the Palestinian dead outnumber the Isreali's 100 TO ONE, four of the Israeli soldiers being killed by friendly fire, mind, is certainly relevant, and illuminating. Of course thats' disregarding probably a thousand or so maimed, paralyzed, etc. If Israel wants to place blame, she need only look in the mirror. The media coverage in this country is almost comical, the american press is either unwilling or unable to provide honest coverage of the subject. Hamas's leadesrhip has opened the door for peace, in fact that was one of the main reasons for this military invasion/assault, to counter what the Israeli's call a "peace offensive." Mind, this is also the position of Iran, and the rest of the Arab League, not to mention the United Nations which votes in favor of the peace resolution every year. I believe this past year it was 164 to 7, so theres' no debate, the international community, the middle east, the palestinians are all very clear on they're desire for a peaceful resolution and support for international law. This thing was planned last spring, they were juust waiting for an excuse to open fire, until this november when Hamas RETALIATED after Israeli troops went into they're territory. It is also important to note these rocket attacks wrre presaged by a blockade of Gaza, which began the humanitarian crisis, blocking the entry of water, food, and medical supplies, called "the destruction of a civilization" by former high commissioner for human rights, Mary Robinson. Let's not forget in 2004, the International Court of Justice rulede that Israeli settlements in Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the West Bank, are totally illegal. The Palestinians have even offered concessions, that they're willing to let Israel keep a certain amount of the conquered territories. There is a very clear barrier to peace in the region, namely the United States, for our support is vital for Israel to continue to violate international law, we set the boundries. These protestations of victimhood from the superpower in the region, commanding such a large and most technologically advanced military,...is laughable.

So if someone keeps throwing rocks at me and I tell them to stop, then they keep throwing rocks and every now and then a rock hits my arms and legs, and then I warn them another time, they will be the victim when I knock their teeth down their throat?

Does not work that way.

Go Israel... May you blast your enemies into itty bitty ashen crispy fritters.

[Chico]

So if someone keeps throwing rocks at me and I tell them to stop, then they keep throwing rocks and every now and then a rock hits my arms and legs, and then I warn them another time, they will be the victim when I knock their teeth down their throat?

Does not work that way.

Go Israel... May you blast your enemies into itty bitty ashen crispy fritters.

Amen, my brother.

Let me add, however....I do feel bad that Palestineans are dying but the people who they've allowed to represent them are just so unreasonable and violent that it's hard to imagine any other solution truly working except the world just taking a step back and allowing Israel to give them a good thrashing.

What is not widely understood is that all this intervening by other nations/organizations, etc...only prolongs the misery. The Palestineans play to world sympathy and it allows them to act out over and over again like children, and nothing is solved. And they are not held accountable for their violent provocations. Let's be honest, if it weren't for all these interventions, this conflict would have been over years ago because one good and strong ass-kicking by Israel would have forced the Palestineans into adopting a peaceful stance by now and these issues would have to have been resolved.

Sometimes our misguided attempts at peace achieve the opposite effect of prolonging the brutality. Some of these Muslim extremist's demands are clearly unreasonable - reclaiming all of Israel for the Muslims/Arabs, converting the whole world to Islam. When these people will accept no less than complete satisfaction of their insane goals, and they use violence to attempt to achieve these goals, then they cannot be reasoned with. It is then appropriate to meet violence with violence and dole out a severe drubbing.

Long story short - Some people just need a good ass-kicking, and sometimes we just need to step back and allow that to happen.

[j funk]

Nah I'm with the Jews.

[Flax]

No, I would say that accessing the situation based on a body count is ignorant which it seems is what you are doing. If anything I am disappointed that Israel is not doing more.

I think you mean "assessing".

[Buzzetta]

I think you mean "assessing".

Yes I do... I originally wrote something a bit harsher (not to nogod) that belonged in the pigsty. Once posted I immediately changed my mind and quickly edited it.

Careless error on my part - no excuse.

[nogodsnomasters85]

Amen, my brother.

Let me add, however....I do feel bad that Palestineans are dying but the people who they've allowed to represent them are just so unreasonable and violent that it's hard to imagine any other solution truly working except the world just taking a step back and allowing Israel to give them a good thrashing.

This opinion would make sense if what you're saying had any basis in fact. First, you're contention about Hamas, first of all, a show of hands who is surprised Hamas won the election? (Which was free and democratic, mind.) With the Israeli blockade preventing them from getting food or medical supplies, etc. etc., it's really to be expected. Second, I repeat, HAMAS' LEADESRHIP HAS RECENTLY STATED THEY ARE OPEN TO PEACE WITH ISRAEL ALONG THE 1967 GUIDELINES. That punches a pretty big hole in you're neat little house of cards. So Israel could have peace TOMORROW, if it wanted it. I'm not saying there would never be any more violence ever again, but the conflict would essentially be over. Again, this is also the stated position of 164 UN member nations, and the Arab League (including Iran, etc.). So the main thesis of you're argument is simply not true, either you didn't read my post, or you didn't comprehend it.

What is not widely understood is that all this intervening by other nations/organizations, etc...only prolongs the misery. The Palestineans play to world sympathy and it allows them to act out over and over again like children, and nothing is solved. And they are not held accountable for their violent provocations. Let's be honest, if it weren't for all these interventions, this conflict would have been over years ago because one good and strong ass-kicking by Israel would have forced the Palestineans into adopting a peaceful stance by now and these issues would have to have been resolved.

Nonsense. First of all, the US has been remarkably successful in insulatiing the Palestinians from any kind of protection or humanitarian intervention, for example, the vote, which occurs almost annually, the tally, AGAIN, being 164-7, which also included Micronesia, Australia, frankly, second-string international players, the US is the vital ingrediant in maintaining and continuing atrocities in the Palestinian territories, without our goverments' tacit approval, "this aggression would not stand". Second, again, according to the ISREALI GOVERNMENTS' OWN WEBSITE, ISRAEL "started it", in fact they had plans for this invasion and bombing campaign months ago. They had to counter the Palestinian (they're words) "peace offensive." I also seriously question you're contention that a good "ass-kicking" (Which the ICC would probably describe as a "war crime.") read; mass slaughter, would end the struggle. I think it would have the same effect as Pres. Shit-For-Brains' "War on Terror", a drastic INCREASE in terrorism, which, in fact the NSA predicted, and happened accordingly. "Bloody Sunday" was perhaps Englands' greatest gift to the IRA, mass slaughter of this kind will have the same effect a thousandfold, alienate the moderates, and boost recruitment and sympathy for Hezbollah, al-qaeda, etc. Thats' also disregarding the moral realities of what you are advocating which is essentially mass-murder.

Sometimes our misguided attempts at peace achieve the opposite effect of prolonging the brutality.

There would have to have BEEN an attempt at peace for this to be true. Again, Israel could virtually end all this tomarrow, the Palestinians have even CONCEDED more territory than that which in 2004 the international court reaffirmed is legally theirs.

Some of these Muslim extremist's demands are clearly unreasonable - reclaiming all of Israel for the Muslims/Arabs, converting the whole world to Islam.

This in no way represents the majority of the Palestinian people. You're constructing a straw man so you can tear him down.

When these people will accept no less than complete satisfaction of their insane goals, and they use violence to attempt to achieve these goals, then they cannot be reasoned with. It is then appropriate to meet violence with violence and dole out a severe drubbing.

Again, the Palestinians have actually made concessions, thats' documented, they've offered, they're "goals" are clearly defined in the 1967 agreement, which Israel has evaded thanks to US support. It's not particularly "insane", just whats' legally theirs.

Long story short - Some people just need a good ass-kicking, and sometimes we just need to step back and allow that to happen.

You're argument really boils down to; "Damn those poor people for not taking a beating lying down, we need to beat them harder until they accept it quietly like they're supposed to." Which is essentially the position of the US government and parroted by the us media which is essentially just six corporations, the only problem is both our politicians and our media outlets deliberately suppress or omit essential facts to prevent us from an unfortunate collision with the truth.

[nogodsnomasters85]

Retired MIT Professor/Author/Activist Noam Chomsky on Israeli Assault on Gaza