Happy Memorial Day!

I don't recall us ever kidnapping an Iraqi journalist and torturing him, then cutting off his head and posting a video of it on the Internet.

No, instead you depose leaders of Middle Eastern states for no particular reason, subject them to unfair trials, hang them and post a video of it on the internet. And let's not forget the 90,000 civilians that have died in the process. Don't try to rationalise your country's actions by comparison with Islamic extremists, it's embarrassing.


Coiff.
 
No, instead you depose leaders of Middle Eastern states for no particular reason, subject them to unfair trials, hang them and post a video of it on the internet. And let's not forget the 90,000 civilians that have died in the process. Don't try to rationalise your country's actions by comparison with Islamic extremists, it's embarrassing.


Coiff.



sometimes it is easy to pick on the united states,for all the wonderful things this country has done and is capable of,it also has a long history of also doing some horrible things as well.
i do not hate or dislike my country but I feel as though we are far more capable and able to do alot more.

and first thing would be to rid ourselves of the regime that runs this country right now,bush may be going but it will be bush term 3 in febuary if the republicans win again this fall.

but this is a memorial day thread,and I think I support the troops far more by saying i wish they were not in iraq,wish they had never gone and wish they were coming home now.

countless lives and countless amounts of money has been spent on making iraq and the middle east far more dangerous than it was even a decade ago.
 
^ :clap:

I had a feeling there'd be some animosity in this thread :rolleyes:. Let's just give thanks for the sacrifices these men and women make. End of.

p.s. where is Buzzetta =D
 
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No, instead you depose leaders of Middle Eastern states for no particular reason, subject them to unfair trials, hang them and post a video of it on the internet. And let's not forget the 90,000 civilians that have died in the process. Don't try to rationalise your country's actions by comparison with Islamic extremists, it's embarrassing.


Coiff.

You forgot the part where I said we've done some f***ed up shit.

I wasn't trying to rationalize anything, Coiff. Troubleluvsme was talking about beheading, and I pointed out one of the more infamous cases and explain what she was trying to say. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think you read a little too much into my statement. I'm not trying to justify anything, rationalize anything, or defend my country's actions. I was only trying to explain someone's statement.

But this thread is about America's fallen, who I have great and immense respect for, and what I will not apologize for having. At the end of the day I'm not ashamed to be American.
 
For the record, I wasn't "picking on" America, or trying to stir up some huge debate - hence I made my point, then thanked all the well-intentioned troops in active service. However, troubleluvsme's point that "at least we haven't beheaded anybody yet" required a response. I do appreciate the life-threatening work of soldiers around the world, but I disagree with the current administration's propaganda that questioning the motives of the war undermines the troops, and is tantamount to treason.


Coiff.
 
You forgot the part where I said we've done some f***ed up shit.

I wasn't trying to rationalize anything, Coiff. Troubleluvsme was talking about beheading, and I pointed out one of the more infamous cases and explain what she was trying to say. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think you read a little too much into my statement. I'm not trying to justify anything, rationalize anything, or defend my country's actions. I was only trying to explain someone's statement.

But this thread is about America's fallen, who I have great and immense respect for, and what I will not apologize for having. At the end of the day I'm not ashamed to be American.

I didn't expect you to apologise or be ashamed. My original point was that while the majority of troops were acting under orders (illegal orders, but orders nonetheless), a small minority were brutally torturing Iraqi captives (most of whom were innocent anyway). The reply to that was "well yeah, but at least we haven't beheaded anybody." That sounds an awful lot like rationalisation to me, but whatever, I'm going now before I incur the wrath of an entire nation.

Peace, love and harmony y'all. :)

Coiff.
 
The reply to that was "well yeah, but at least we haven't beheaded anybody." That sounds an awful lot like rationalisation to me, but whatever, I'm going now before I incur the wrath of an entire nation.

EDIT: I had a long typed out response to this, but I feel it's disrespectful to hijack a thread dedicated to people who damn well deserve it.

I'll suffice to say that you've simply incorrectly interpreted what I was a trying to say, and that "well yeah, but at least we haven't beheaded anybody", is a far, far cry for what I said originally. I'm a little insulted, actually. The fact that I said I wasn't trying to rationalize anything should have been enough for you, and I shouldn't have to explain myself any further.

I realize that this is the Internet and that things get caught in translation, but that doesn't stop me from being a little dissapointed. I thought you knew me better than that, Coiff. :(

And that's all I got to say about that.

God Bless America.
 
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For the record, I wasn't "picking on" America, or trying to stir up some huge debate

Oh, anyone can see exactly what you were doing. The only question is, when did you convert to Islam? Before or after 9/11?

And you can keep mourning that piece of worm food, the genocidal dictator Saddam Hussein (who you call a "leader of a Middle Eastern state" who was deposed "for no particular reason") , if you like. *spit*
 
For the record, I wasn't "picking on" America, or trying to stir up some huge debate - hence I made my point, then thanked all the well-intentioned troops in active service. However, troubleluvsme's point that "at least we haven't beheaded anybody yet" required a response. I do appreciate the life-threatening work of soldiers around the world, but I disagree with the current administration's propaganda that questioning the motives of the war undermines the troops, and is tantamount to treason.


Coiff.

You have it all wrong Coiff. I believe you misinterpreted my tone.
In no way did I intend for my statement to sound like a small child defending his actions with "well at least we haven't......"

My statement began with "I do not condone torture...."
Undeniably, a great deal of what happened at Abu Ghraib was torture, and our Armed Forces cannot conduct themselves in that manner without facing consequences. However, I am sick and tired of people bringing up Abu Ghraib without any mention of what Iraqi soldiers have done to civilians....I have file folders full of video footage.

I made the statement that I had seen photos of Iraqi prisoners wearing women's underwear on their heads; but at least their heads were still attached to their necks. My intent was not to rationalize what we did at Abu Gharib, but to reiterate that we are not exactly fighting gentlemen in this war. Again, what we did was wrong. We could go around for days with this argument.

This was Corrissey's tribute to our American Soldiers, and I found your initial remarks smug and disrespectful.

AmericanHeros.jpg
 
well damn. Im not surprised someone came on here trying to ruin this thread, but I'm actually surprised it was Coiff. it is possible to support the troops, but not the war. I can't wait til the 4th of July when someone makes a thread and we get shit on for that too. I guess us Americans can't do anything right. :rolleyes::(
 
I didn't expect you to apologise or be ashamed. My original point was that while the majority of troops were acting under orders (illegal orders, but orders nonetheless), a small minority were brutally torturing Iraqi captives (most of whom were innocent anyway). The reply to that was "well yeah, but at least we haven't beheaded anybody." That sounds an awful lot like rationalisation to me, but whatever, I'm going now before I incur the wrath of an entire nation.

Peace, love and harmony y'all. :)

Coiff.

You're right because what this country is doing now dishonors all of those that fought for what this country stood for and those that ran our government used to be against torture, and for the Constitutional rights of US Citizens, and the upholding of honor and decency when dealing with prisoners of war.

Actually, by writing this on this day you are honoring the ideals that those people fought for. I don't think that shutting up while our nation throws away the ideals that made us great is what it's all about.
 
Oh, anyone can see exactly what you were doing. The only question is, when did you convert to Islam? Before or after 9/11?

And you can keep mourning that piece of worm food, the genocidal dictator Saddam Hussein (who you call a "leader of a Middle Eastern state" who was deposed "for no particular reason") , if you like. *spit*

Hey, you tried that "converting to Islam on 9/11" line on me, too. I don't know if you're joking or not, because I know you said it's ok to joke about 9/11, but I really don't think this is the day to say things like that.
 
52 subs lost in WWII!:(
*Glad the little bro' didn't end up in one, after all.* I didn't think to mention Memorial Day to him on Sunday.:rolleyes:
 
I'll suffice to say that you've simply incorrectly interpreted what I was a trying to say, and that "well yeah, but at least we haven't beheaded anybody", is a far, far cry for what I said originally. I'm a little insulted, actually. The fact that I said I wasn't trying to rationalize anything should have been enough for you, and I shouldn't have to explain myself any further.

I realize that this is the Internet and that things get caught in translation, but that doesn't stop me from being a little dissapointed. I thought you knew me better than that, Coiff. :(

You said "We've done some f***ed up shit, but we haven't done that [beheaded an Iraqi journalist] yet." If that point isn't trying to achieve what I originally thought, then I have no idea what the aim of it was. I wasn't making any personal slurs, so I have no idea why you're introducing this whole element of "I thought you knew me better than that." I was surprised at your original comment, yes, which is why I took it further. I wasn't trying to insult you.

Oh, anyone can see exactly what you were doing. The only question is, when did you convert to Islam? Before or after 9/11?

And you can keep mourning that piece of worm food, the genocidal dictator Saddam Hussein (who you call a "leader of a Middle Eastern state" who was deposed "for no particular reason") , if you like. *spit*

I wondered how long it would be until Donald Rumsfeld Jnr. showed up.

I don't "mourn" him - but everyone, no matter how bad their crime, deserves a fair trial - something the US ensured he never received. Not that deposing him was even the genuine reason for this war, but apparently human rights laws don't apply when they're inconvenient for whichever draconian foreign policies America wants to enforce.

You have it all wrong Coiff. I believe you misinterpreted my tone.
In no way did I intend for my statement to sound like a small child defending his actions with "well at least we haven't......"

My statement began with "I do not condone torture...."
Undeniably, a great deal of what happened at Abu Ghraib was torture, and our Armed Forces cannot conduct themselves in that manner without facing consequences. However, I am sick and tired of people bringing up Abu Ghraib without any mention of what Iraqi soldiers have done to civilians....I have file folders full of video footage.

I made the statement that I had seen photos of Iraqi prisoners wearing women's underwear on their heads; but at least their heads were still attached to their necks. My intent was not to rationalize what we did at Abu Gharib, but to reiterate that we are not exactly fighting gentlemen in this war. Again, what we did was wrong. We could go around for days with this argument.

This was Corrissey's tribute to our American Soldiers, and I found your initial remarks smug and disrespectful.

The nature of war is such that you will never be fighting "gentlemen." Nobody who kills in an unjust war is a "gentleman." You have the most highly trained armed forces in the world, and yet they cannot conduct themselves with the decency expected of even the most rudimentary fighting force. The official aim was to liberate a country crushed under the iron fist of a brutal dictator, and yet innocent people become the victims of abuse at the hands of their liberators. I won't apologise for raising this issue, because there's no better time to do it than now. I'm not the one disrespecting the centuries of world innovation and pioneering achieved by your nation - your troops are.

well damn. Im not surprised someone came on here trying to ruin this thread, but I'm actually surprised it was Coiff. it is possible to support the troops, but not the war. I can't wait til the 4th of July when someone makes a thread and we get shit on for that too. I guess us Americans can't do anything right. :rolleyes::(

Why the surprise? If you want to believe my comments are merely anti-American rhetoric, then go ahead. You'd be wrong though, because I don't want to see your country's reputation tarnished anymore than it has been over the past five years. Do you believe that your troops are fighting an illegal war? If so, how is it possible to support their actions on an individual basis? They return home having committed an illegal act. As this is an unjust war, they have, in essence, committed murder. I can't support that.

You're right because what this country is doing now dishonors all of those that fought for what this country stood for and those that ran our government used to be against torture, and for the Constitutional rights of US Citizens, and the upholding of honor and decency when dealing with prisoners of war.

Actually, by writing this on this day you are honoring the ideals that those people fought for. I don't think that shutting up while our nation throws away the ideals that made us great is what it's all about.

Well said, Dave. It's a relief to know that not all Americans are still lost in the fog of their President's propaganda.


Coiff.
 
You said "We've done some f***ed up shit, but we haven't done that [beheaded an Iraqi journalist] yet." If that point isn't trying to achieve what I originally thought, then I have no idea what the aim of it was. I wasn't making any personal slurs, so I have no idea why you're introducing this whole element of "I thought you knew me better than that." I was surprised at your original comment, yes, which is why I took it further. I wasn't trying to insult you.

I think I explained what the aim of it was; to clarify troubleluvsme's point. I explained it a couple of times, I do believe.

I never once said that that was my personal belief. That is what you assumed.

You did insult me, intentional or not.

I wondered how long it would be until Donald Rumsfeld Jnr. showed up.

I don't "mourn" him - but everyone, no matter how bad their crime, deserves a fair trial - something the US ensured he never received. Not that deposing him was even the genuine reason for this war, but apparently human rights laws don't apply when they're inconvenient for whichever draconian foreign policies America wants to enforce.

Try as I might, I just can't seem to muster up any pity for Sadaam Hussein. I reserve most of that pity for his victims. I don't think there was any doubt that he was responsible for those murders.

I'm not the one disrespecting the centuries of world innovation and pioneering achieved by your nation - your troops are.

Why don't you go knock on the door of every mother who lost their son or daughter in the war and tell her that.


Why the surprise? If you want to believe my comments are merely anti-American rhetoric, then go ahead.

It is and I will. We're suprised because you don't usually act like this. You're usually much more respectful.

Well said, Dave. It's a relief to know that not all Americans are still lost in the fog of their President's propaganda.

Although I don't want to take away from Dave's compliment, as he is intelligent, but saying that we are "lost in the fog of [our] President's propoganda" is condescending, which is what you've been this whole time.

Bravo for using a thread to talk about people who've given their lives for our country in order to elevate your own personal point about how America's f***ing up.
 
I think I explained what the aim of it was; to clarify troubleluvsme's point. I explained it a couple of times, I do believe.

I never once said that that was my personal belief. That is what you assumed.

You did insult me, intentional or not.

I am sorry that you feel insulted, it most certainly wasn't my intention. I will not apologise for or take back what I said, however. It also doesn't matter whether it's your personal opinion or not - this isn't a personal disagreement, it's a political one.

Try as I might, I just can't seem to muster up any pity for Sadaam Hussein. I reserve most of that pity for his victims. I don't think there was any doubt that he was responsible for those murders.

I wasn't asking you to pity him. I don't pity him. I do, however, think he deserved a fair trial, as did the founders of your country.

Why don't you go knock on the door of every mother who lost their son or daughter in the war and tell her that.

I would hope that if it was their child who had soiled the legacy of America's military history as much as those at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere, they wouldn't need me to tell them.

It is and I will. We're suprised because you don't usually act like this. You're usually much more respectful.

Act like what? Like I give a f***? Because I do, whether or not I show it on a regular basis. There's enough factual evidence behind my comments to make them more than empty words. But I guess it's easier for you to just believe that I hate America, rather than to confront that evidence.

Although I don't want to take away from Dave's compliment, as he is intelligent, but saying that we are "lost in the fog of [our] President's propoganda" is condescending, which is what you've been this whole time.

Bravo for using a thread to talk about people who've given their lives for our country in order to elevate your own personal point about how America's f***ing up.

Your inability to discuss this without veering off into a Bush-esque "you disagree with American foreign policy, ergo, you spit on the graves of America's soldiers" oratory lends sufficient evidence to my claim about the propaganda. Once again, I'm not trying to make a personal point. If this is something that can't be discussed now, when can it be?

Coiff.
 
Happy Memorial Day for what? a government that has murdered millions of...no i'm just kidding. Happy Memorial Day!!!

Yikes, I'm a little late.
 
Thanks for the thread, Corrissey. The discussion, though, caused me to start to respond to some stupid crap and then it reminded me of why I don't really post here anymore.

Thanks to the Vets, past and present.
 
Thanks for the thread, Corrissey. The discussion, though, caused me to start to respond to some stupid crap and then it reminded me of why I don't really post here anymore.

Thanks to the Vets, past and present.

Aw, I miss you.
Reply to stupid crap on the Word Association game then. The shit isn't 'deep' there!
 
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