new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits review)

[CharethCutestory]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

I think his opinion on Obama is important, as his comments on immigration (in context or not, writ pending) were constructed as racist. The fact that Obama is black shouldn't be an issue, but it is. If elected as democrat candidate, and subsequently president, it would be a big thing. Surely this lays to rest the racist issue?

Please don't think I'm attacking you personally, but this is an arguement that really pisses me right off and generally reveals the arguer as a bonafide racsist. Just because he supports ONE black person, doesn't mean that he isn't rascist.

It's like these people who say "Yes, I'm voting BNP..... but I'm not rascist, my friend who runs the local shop is a Pak..... I mean an Asian SO I CAN'T BE RACIST".

Ridiculous, it's an issue that's full of grey areas, and trying to sum things up as black or white is pointless.

 

[CharethCutestory]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

I incorrectly spelt the word racist several times in my last post, honestly, what an idiot.

 

[Velvis]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

I'm sure Morrissey will titter at this misguided review. To critisise an artist who has always presented his world view of beign self obsessed is totally laughable.

I thought it was quite funny - 'T.Rex played by the dead' 'Redundant Beach' - Haaa - how can we take this guy seriously?

Attacking the band is totally off the mark - I think 'All You Need Is Me' rocks like a bastard - I particularly love the bass guitar - who's to say this isn't the best line-up ever?

 

[starless]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

You're right, it has very little to do with the quality of his music, but it a a consideration, I don't want to line the pockets of an ill informed rascist.

so now you are listening only to Morrissey's pre-NME-interview records?

 

[Forza Mozza]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

Please don't think I'm attacking you personally, but this is an arguement that really pisses me right off and generally reveals the arguer as a bonafide racsist. Just because he supports ONE black person, doesn't mean that he isn't rascist.

It's like these people who say "Yes, I'm voting BNP..... but I'm not rascist, my friend who runs the local shop is a Pak..... I mean an Asian SO I CAN'T BE RACIST".

Ridiculous, it's an issue that's full of grey areas, and trying to sum things up as black or white is pointless.

But then it should work the other way? If Morrissey can be pillored for hating black music, does that mean he's racist? (I don't think he hates black music at all, but he has been attacked as such, notably the single Panic which has been cited as an attack on disco, dance music and the domain of black music). Also, I wasn't saying that his backing of Obama was concrete proof of him not being a racist, as I did put a question mark after the 'does this lay the racist thing to rest' (or something like that. I wasn't stating it as fact. You're right, it is a grey area, and it isn't black and white (bad pun intended).

Another point is, his comments are much more closely linked to xenophobia, rather than race, although they are closely linked, due to parties such as the BNP etc. I'm not saying this is more acceptable, or what's right or wrong, but it is a distinction that must be made. Also, such "xenophobic" comments have been made by Moz, even in the early days of the Smiths / solo career, yet you still lined his pockets even when he was uttering such "morally retarded" diatribes? (from your response to another poster)

 

[CharethCutestory]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

so now you are listening only to Morrissey's pre-NME-interview records?

No, not at all, what I'm saying is I don't want to pay him. Being an idiot doesn't stop you from recording good music, I'd just have to argue with myself over whether I'd buy it or download it. However, given the complete toss he's knocked out in the last five years (which, like a nob head I bought on release day) I don't think it's that much of an issue. He hasn't got another good record in him anyway and he should really just bow out now before he completely rapes his legacy.

 

[Forza Mozza]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

Grasping at straws much?

If you think so, then fair enough. I did follow that up by saying the NME could have had a sensible debate about it rather than playing the racist card. Morrissey comments may have been intentional, or it might just be the language that he knows and grew up with. The point is language is very potent, and of course there are many connotations and associations with the language that we use everyday. Is it acceptable for Quetin Taratino to write the N word and get a black actor to say it - does that make it more morally & racially acceptable? As i said in my other post, agreeing with the other poster, it's not a black and white area, but by discussing these things more, in public, I feel takes power away from groups such as the BNP, who use their censorship as a rallying call for "truth"

 

[CharethCutestory]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

But then it should work the other way? If Morrissey can be pillored for hating black music, does that mean he's racist? (I don't think he hates black music at all, but he has been attacked as such, notably the single Panic which has been cited as an attack on disco, dance music and the domain of black music). Also, I wasn't saying that his backing of Obama was concrete proof of him not being a racist, as I did put a question mark after the 'does this lay the racist thing to rest' (or something like that. I wasn't stating it as fact. You're right, it is a grey area, and it isn't black and white (bad pun intended).

Another point is, his comments are much more closely linked to xenophobia, rather than race, although they are closely linked, due to parties such as the BNP etc. I'm not saying this is more acceptable, or what's right or wrong, but it is a distinction that must be made. Also, such "xenophobic" comments have been made by Moz, even in the early days of the Smiths / solo career, yet you still lined his pockets even when he was uttering such "morally retarded" diatribes? (from your response to another poster)

You're absolutely right, in a lot of ways it does ring more true as xenophobia than racism. Apart from of course when he shouted "I HATE BLACKS ME!" at some journalists*.

*He never shouted that. I was joking.

Really, the music of black origin arguement is a moot point because (whilst I understand why you said it, and to a point agree with you) ALL modern pop music has a black root from blues anyway. Claiming that "all reggae is vile" is stupid, because he obviously hasn't heard it all, but in itself, that comment doesn't make him a racist.

 

[CharethCutestory]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

discussing these things more, in public, I feel takes power away from groups such as the BNP, who use their censorship as a rallying call for "truth"

Very, very good point.

The word n***** is a tricky subject, on the one hand it is a word with such disgusting connotation and history that it shouldn't be accepted in modern society, but on the other society as a whole would be a better place if those connotations could be stripped away and a once hateful word would no longer carry such a hateful message.

 

[down_in_albion]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

If you think so, then fair enough. I did follow that up by saying the NME could have had a sensible debate about it rather than playing the racist card. Morrissey comments may have been intentional, or it might just be the language that he knows and grew up with. The point is language is very potent, and of course there are many connotations and associations with the language that we use everyday. Is it acceptable for Quetin Taratino to write the N word and get a black actor to say it - does that make it more morally & racially acceptable? As i said in my other post, agreeing with the other poster, it's not a black and white area, but by discussing these things more, in public, I feel takes power away from groups such as the BNP, who use their censorship as a rallying call for "truth"

Well, I'm ambivalent about the Tarantino example for a couple of reasons. Firstly it's not really relevant and secondly he's a talentless hack.

As for Morrissey, it really is stretching quite considerably to argue that he was trying to start a debate, he talked without thinking about something he knows damn all about. This happens, we all do it, most of us either clarify or apologise though.

In case you hadn't noticed, there is a ridiculous amount of debate about it already, have a glance at the papers tommorrow morning. What he said could have been cribbed from the Mail or Express.

 

[CharethCutestory]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

Well, I'm ambivalent about the Tarantino example for a couple of reasons. Firstly it's not really relevant and secondly he's a talentless hack.

As for Morrissey, it really is stretching quite considerably to argue that he was trying to start a debate, he talked without thinking about something he knows damn all about. This happens, we all do it, most of us either clarify or apologise though.

In case you hadn't noticed, there is a ridiculous amount of debate about it already, have a glance at the papers tommorrow morning. What he said could have been cribbed from the Mail or Express.

1. I would have disagreed with the Tarantino point right up until the moment I saw Deathproof. It's one of the worst films I've ever seen. What a nob end.

2. As you said, the racsim thing wouldn't be an issue if he'd just take the time to say "You know what, I'm a dick, I was talking shite about something I don't know much about. Sorry. We're all wrong sometimes aren't we". But he won't, because he's socially dim witted.

3. Is it only me that sees the similarities between Morrissey and Ben Elton?

 

[down_in_albion]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

1. I would have disagreed with the Tarantino point right up until the moment I saw Deathproof. It's one of the worst films I've ever seen. What a nob end.

2. As you said, the racsim thing wouldn't be an issue if he'd just take the time to say "You know what, I'm a dick, I was talking shite about something I don't know much about. Sorry. We're all wrong sometimes aren't we". But he won't, because he's socially dim witted.

3. Is it only me that sees the similarities between Morrissey and Ben Elton?

Without wishing to sidetrack this into a Tarantino: Talentless muppet thread....Kermode summed him up best. All his characters speak how he wishes he could speak in real life. He's a video store clerk who dreams of being a hip gangster.

The killer bit for me is mentioned in the article, not only is it a crass thing to say, his only knowledge of the country comes from shuttling between the venue in a limo and a knightsbridge hotel.

It's not only you.

 

[CapriciousCorin]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

That was almost a musical. What a passion! Beware the consonants and the perspiration! wow

 

[CharethCutestory]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

Without wishing to sidetrack this into a Tarantino: Talentless muppet thread....Kermode summed him up best. All his characters speak how he wishes he could speak in real life. He's a video store clerk who dreams of being a hip gangster.

The killer bit for me is mentioned in the article, not only is it a crass thing to say, his only knowledge of the country comes from shuttling between the venue in a limo and a knightsbridge hotel.

It's not only you.

I've always like Kermode, even if his name is the Geordie word for a temporary toilet, I like him even more now.

I read a very good article on The Guardian website shortly after the NME incident (the latest one I mean), that raised an excellent point. The England that Morrissey claims is disappearing doesn't exist anyway.

Here is the article -

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/12/morrissey_is_living_in_a_fanta.html

 

[down_in_albion]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

I've always like Kermode, even if his name is the Geordie word for a temporary toilet, I like him even more now.

I read a very good article on The Guardian website shortly after the NME incident (the latest one I mean), that raised an excellent point. The England that Morrissey claims is disappearing doesn't exist anyway.

Here is the article -

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/12/morrissey_is_living_in_a_fanta.html

I missed that one at the time, a good read. It brings up the glaringly obvious point of this thinking being endemic to expat populations, who reinvent the country they left in their minds then are shocked to discover it isn't like that.

 

[Forza Mozza]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

Well, I'm ambivalent about the Tarantino example for a couple of reasons. Firstly it's not really relevant and secondly he's a talentless hack.

As for Morrissey, it really is stretching quite considerably to argue that he was trying to start a debate, he talked without thinking about something he knows damn all about. This happens, we all do it, most of us either clarify or apologise though.

In case you hadn't noticed, there is a ridiculous amount of debate about it already, have a glance at the papers tommorrow morning. What he said could have been cribbed from the Mail or Express.

I try not to read the Mail or the Express. Nor did I say he was actively seeking to start such a debate that is unfolding in the tabloids, it always has been a big news item for them. The Tarantino analogy is relevant as it highlights the use of racist language (of course n***** is much more inflammatory than flood). I conceed the point on bulletproof as i haven't seen it yet. I'm not saying Morrissey is some sort of anti-racist saint, trying to banish the evils of such words, because i don't think he is like that at all. I don't feel like I'm stretching to cover morrissey's back, because I know I'm not the type to do that. I just feel it is feasible for a man, who lyrical is one of the best in the business, who is described as a poet by fans and critics, would be aware of the connotations of what he said, and who enoch powell is. The fact that this didn't even enter the debate, shows an eager willingness to expose people in a Salem-esqe hunt. And I'm not too keen on him apologising. If Morrissey was racist, and they are his genuine thoughts and feelings on race / immigration etc, I would rather know, than follow a artist who is willing to bow and kowtow to mainstream ideals of what is acceptable in order to save his career. Also, hte interview also provoked a lively debate on Question time, a respectable political show, and the question of what exactly is British identity was addressed, which can only be good to the debate on immigration, race and racism in the UK surely?

 

[CharethCutestory]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

Also, hte interview also provoked a lively debate on Question time, a respectable political show, and the question of what exactly is British identity was addressed, which can only be good to the debate on immigration, race and racism in the UK surely?

You're absolutely right, it can only be a good thing. I think the point is that it was raised because Morrissey was talking like a twerp and not because he was making an effort to kick start such a debate.

When you're dealing with a man who has been regularly labelled a racist because of things that he's said you have to eventually wonder, poetic genius or not, whether there is some truth in the allegations. Not saying repeated allegations definately prove something as fact, they don't, just that you need to examine the facts closely.

 

[down_in_albion]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

I'm not saying Morrissey is some sort of anti-racist saint, trying to banish the evils of such words, because i don't think he is like that at all.?

The word flooding was earmarked as the language of Powell, and of course it is. However, should we mark that word as taboo forever? Morrissey may have intentionally used that word in relation to immigration, in a way to reclaim it from the grasp of the NF / BNP

I'm sorry but that is exactly what you were saying.

 

[down_in_albion]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

I try not to read the Mail or the Express. Nor did I say he was actively seeking to start such a debate that is unfolding in the tabloids, it always has been a big news item for them. The Tarantino analogy is relevant as it highlights the use of racist language (of course n***** is much more inflammatory than flood). I conceed the point on bulletproof as i haven't seen it yet. I'm not saying Morrissey is some sort of anti-racist saint, trying to banish the evils of such words, because i don't think he is like that at all. I don't feel like I'm stretching to cover morrissey's back, because I know I'm not the type to do that. I just feel it is feasible for a man, who lyrical is one of the best in the business, who is described as a poet by fans and critics, would be aware of the connotations of what he said, and who enoch powell is. The fact that this didn't even enter the debate, shows an eager willingness to expose people in a Salem-esqe hunt. And I'm not too keen on him apologising. If Morrissey was racist, and they are his genuine thoughts and feelings on race / immigration etc, I would rather know, than follow a artist who is willing to bow and kowtow to mainstream ideals of what is acceptable in order to save his career. Also, hte interview also provoked a lively debate on Question time, a respectable political show, and the question of what exactly is British identity was addressed, which can only be good to the debate on immigration, race and racism in the UK surely?

The point is that he was saying something that is said day after day in the tabloids. He is not adding to a debate, he made deliberatley provoctive remarks to the NME without backing them up.

I did say clarify or apologise. And please don't turn this into a rebel-against-political-correctness-brigade thing, because it wont wash. A rebel is someone who stands up to the powerful not picks on the weak.

 

[Forza Mozza]

Re: new Word Magazine; perhaps most vicious attack ever on Moz (in Greatest Hits revi

I'm sorry but that is exactly what you were saying.

Sorry I should have edited* my last post, it should have read that I don't believe that morrissey to be a saint-like figure on a crusade against all racist language, and trying to reclaim it all back. He has never struck me as that type of person. I'm also not saying that it was definitely intentional, as I can't read his mind. Even so, with that in mind, I still believe it is feasible that he could have used it with the intention of claiming it back. I can see what I am saying is slightly contradictory, I just didn't want people to think I believed Morrissey to be some holy nay slayer of 'racist' words.

* I won't edit it so it doesn't look like I'm backtracking and others can see the flow of the argument / debate.