Mad User

[WorkingGirl]

I don't want to see anyone's post censored. I believe in the absolute right of each and everyone of us to have the opportunity to express what we believe to be true.

Unfortunately, some people who post here seems to think that what they say is sacrasanct.....no argument.

This is fundimentalism..

We can see it at work everyday.

The Taliban destorying 2,000 year old Buddhist Statues, because they are not exceptable to their beliefs.

Christians, having Darwin and evolution removed for the class room because it differs from their picture of creation.

Zionist Jews oppressing the legitimate population of a land, because they believe that that land belongs to them because "God" gave it to them.

They are too many nutters on this earth trying to impose their view on other people.

Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot.

The British did it.

The US are doing.

Don't believe what people tell you. Ask yourself why they are telling you this.

Life is to be enjoyed, find out for yourself.

I'll get off the soap box now.

WorkingGirlx.

[MEDUSA]

> Zionist Jews oppressing the legitimate population of a land,
> because they believe that that land belongs to them because
> "God" gave it to them.

It's easy for you to say, since you don't have the STIGMA. We have been treated as animals for so many time, and at least we should have our own place. IT'S OURS.

> They are too many nutters on this earth trying to impose their
> view on other people.
> Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot.
> The British did it.

The british people hate the fact that United States is a strong culture, and they love to humiliate americans, but when they need money, OH then the americans are great!!!!! I've been to England 2 years ago and I just saw aloof people, with big noses, and nothing more than pose. They didn't treat me well because I have a different accent, and in my hotel they stole $5,000 in computer material, and when I asked help, I just have found at the american embassy.

> The US are doing.

The americans are carring YOU ALL, and trying to help YOU ALL, but you can't be grateful, can you?

> Don't believe what people tell you. Ask yourself why they are
> telling you this.
> Life is to be enjoyed, find out for yourself.
> I'll get off the soap box now.
> WorkingGirlx.

[WorkingGirl]

> It's easy for you to say, since you don't have the STIGMA. We
> have been treated as animals for so many time, and at least we
> should have our own place. IT'S OURS.

What Stigma? That your Jewish? The Holocaust?

Hitler said that same about Germany. No Jews in Germany because the Fatherland is for Germans. Land is land no-one owns it, it belongs to everybody.

> The british people hate the fact that United States is a strong
> culture, and they love to humiliate americans, but when they
> need money, OH then the americans are great!!!!! I've been to
> England 2 years ago and I just saw aloof people, with big noses,
> and nothing more than pose. They didn't treat me well because I
> have a different accent, and in my hotel they stole $5,000 in
> computer material, and when I asked help, I just have found at
> the american embassy.

America maybe a strong country but a strong culture?
Disney and McDonalds.
The British don't need to humiliate Americans, you seem to be able to do that for yourself just fine.
95% of Americans don't have a passport. The richest nation on the planet and the US people do not know of the world outside it's borders.
Most Americans could tell you the geographical posistion of another State to the one they live in.
I've worked in the States. I think I know what I'm talking about.

I'm sorry if you had a hard time when you visited Britain, Hey @#!!! happens, I'm sure it wasn't personal.

> The americans are carring YOU ALL, and trying to help YOU ALL,
> but you can't be grateful, can you?

The US cares about the US. All countries care about their own self interest first. Are the US are very caring to Cuba?
To Vietnam in the Sixities?
To Chile in the Seventies?
To Nicaragua in the Eigthies?
To Russia in the Nineties?
And now it looks like it's China's turn.

Might isn't right.

Perhaps people would have more respect for the US if the US showed more respect for the rights of other nations to self determination.
The US fought for the right to live the way they wanted in the 18th Century. Now the US has become the bully.

[MEDUSA]

> What Stigma? That your Jewish? The Holocaust?

For being jewish ME, for being gay, YOU. Gay people had their mark too.

> Hitler said that same about Germany. No Jews in Germany because
> the Fatherland is for Germans. Land is land no-one owns it, it
> belongs to everybody.

It's beautiful to think that land belongs to everyone, but ... Is it true?

> America maybe a strong country but a strong culture?
> Disney and McDonalds.

Who are the movie stars you love most? What are the movies you love most? Lots of immigrants escaped to this place when they had no other to go. It's so easy to say americans are crap, but hey, the web is american, lots of great scientits are americans, and lots of amazing things americans do for all of us.

> The British don't need to humiliate Americans, you seem to be
> able to do that for yourself just fine.
> 95% of Americans don't have a passport. The richest nation on
> the planet and the US people do not know of the world outside
> it's borders.
> Most Americans could tell you the geographical posistion of
> another State to the one they live in.
> I've worked in the States. I think I know what I'm talking
> about.
> I'm sorry if you had a hard time when you visited Britain, Hey
> @#!!! happens, I'm sure it wasn't personal.
> The US cares about the US. All countries care about their own
> self interest first. Are the US are very caring to Cuba?
> To Vietnam in the Sixities?
> To Chile in the Seventies?
> To Nicaragua in the Eigthies?
> To Russia in the Nineties?
> And now it looks like it's China's turn.
> Might isn't right.
> Perhaps people would have more respect for the US if the US
> showed more respect for the rights of other nations to self
> determination.
> The US fought for the right to live the way they wanted in the
> 18th Century. Now the US has become the bully.

We need to face the truth: US have we all in it's hands. I agree with some of what you said, but the only thing we can do is have a little faith on US, because this country has the power to destroy and create.

[Copeland]

> Might isn't right.

Respectful use of military strength (such as America's) is a deterrent to war. Trust me, there are hundreds of countries around the world who are thankful for America's military strength. And in WWII, Britian was the most thankful of all. America is the world's stabilizer, because MOST other countries are too incompetent to handle world issues.

Working girl, you say you want America to butt out of the affairs of other countries, well fine: we'll pull out of Bosnia and let you Europeans handle it all on your own. Everytime we even mention something like that, Tony Blair and the rest of the European leaders BEG US to stay involved. People want to blame Americans for everything, but then call on us when there is a crisis.

And as far as China, maybe you should look at how they treat their own people.

[WorkingGirl]

> Respectful use of military strength (such as America's) is a
> deterrent to war.

Do you have an example?

Trust me, there are hundreds of countries
> around the world who are thankful for America's military
> strength.

Do you have an example?

And in WWII, Britian was the most thankful of all.

Amwerica joined the war after Pearl Harbour.

> America is the world's stabilizer, because MOST other countries
> are too incompetent to handle world issues.

You have a very competent democracy as we all witnessed.
World Issues, such as Global warming? World Hunger? The Us are making great leaps forward on these issues.

> Working girl, you say you want America to butt out of the
> affairs of other countries, well fine: we'll pull out of Bosnia
> and let you Europeans handle it all on your own. Everytime we
> even mention something like that, Tony Blair and the rest of the
> European leaders BEG US to stay involved.

Bosnia is a result of the cold war. An artifical condition created by the US nuclear build up. Please learn some history.
I for one would be prefectly happy for the US to stop playing politics in Europe.

>People want to blame
> Americans for everything, but then call on us when there is a
> crisis.

There's no smoke without fire.
Crisis? what Crisis?
America and the other western Democracys are all guilty of supporting tinpot dictators to suit our own ends. Saddam, Sakarto, Pinochet.

but America has a history of undermining democratically elected governments because their politics do not suit the American Way.

> And as far as China, maybe you should look at how they treat
> their own people.

We all know that China is far from perfect, nowhere is. That doesn't give America or anyone else the right to decide how they should conduct their affairs.

It's not so long since the blacks in the South were second class citizens.

[MEDUSA]

People want to blame
> Americans for everything, but then call on us when there is a
> crisis.

That's exactly my point. Americans are crap, this and that, but OH wait a minute, NOW we need them, so they are not that bad, are they? Europeans have tradition and pose, but when they need money or another favour, they act like a child who asks dad's help.

> And as far as China, maybe you should look at how they treat
> their own people.

Their people, their animals, etc... It's a shame. In US you will find lots of people and organizations that supports animal rights, and lots of beautiful animals are protected, but take a look at China. Take a look what they are doing right now with their bears, for example.

[WorkingGirl]

but take a
> look at China. Take a look what they are doing right now with
> their bears, for example.

Take a look at what you, the US did to the Native American Indians,
to the Buffalo, the Beaver.........

To be able to Preach you go to be able to set a good example.

The US do not qualify.

Look what US industry is doing to the developing world, sweat shops, child labour.

Wise up...no country is perfect ..not even the good old U, S of A.

[Andrew S.]

> Wise up...no country is perfect ..not even the good old U, S of
> A.

a-ha! so why are we picking on the US? We could easily be discussing the perils of Britain's semi-socialist goverment. Or the corruption of Mexico. The repression of China. The stubborness of Russia. The power hungriness of Africa.

but apparently we have decided to attack the US. Well, WorkingGirl...i'm sorry that the US is a great country and you feel obligated to be the vocal opposition to that.

oh, and as for McDonalds and Disney....the mantra cry of the poor hurt liberal college student...you'd rather get your food in a vacuum packed can labeled "Edible Mush" supplied by the goverment?

Yes, I do mind McDonald's...but i don't sit and whine about it because I don't even @#!!!ING go there!

oh, and by the way...do you think that if China had the power that the US has over the world right now that they wouldn't have attempted their manifest destiny?

-Andrew S.

[tricky]

America is not perfect, but they are closer to perfection than any other country is. I'm Irish, and I can see that. That's why my grandparents moved to America in 1921.

[WorkingGirl]

> For being jewish ME, for being gay, YOU. Gay people had their
> mark too.

I have no mark.

> It's beautiful to think that land belongs to everyone, but ...
> Is it true?

is it not? An English comedian tells this Joke.

He was walking in the country when a man with a posh accent told him that he couldn't walk there because it was private property.

So the man says "so how come you own this land then?"

the Posh bloke replies," my ancestors came over to England with William, duke of Normandy and defeated the saxons and were awarded this land in return."

So man says, "so one of your ancestors was given this land by fighting for it?"

and Posh Bloke says" Yes, that's right."

So man says, "Right, get your coat off, I'll fight you for IT"

Should land belong to someone because in the past someone displaced the previous occupants?

> Who are the movie stars you love most? What are the movies you
> love most? Lots of immigrants escaped to this place when they
> had no other to go. It's so easy to say americans are crap, but
> hey, the web is american, lots of great scientits are americans,
> and lots of amazing things americans do for all of us.

I never said Americans are crap. Check the Posts.

Who invented Cinema? A Frenchman.
Who invented Television? A Scot.
Who invented the Computer? An Englishman.
The Rocket, Germans.
OK, I'll give you first manned flight.
Radio, an Italian.
The Telephone, a Scot.

Lots of immigrants went to and still go to America to escape persecution, but it seems that their offspring have forgetten that, and now persecute countries militarily and economically for wanting something different.

> We need to face the truth: US have we all in it's hands. I agree
> with some of what you said, but the only thing we can do is have
> a little faith on US, because this country has the power to
> destroy and create.

You do need to face the truth....
The US is the nasty neighbour in the world, telling people what to do and littering the neighbourhood.

[WorkingGirl]

> America is not perfect, but they are closer to perfection than
> any other country is. I'm Irish, and I can see that. That's why
> my grandparents moved to America in 1921.

But you don't call yourself American?

[WorkingGirl]

Because your cultural values make you such an easy target.

"We will descend on everyone unable to defend themselves."

Sounds like US foreign policy.

[Laura]

>Land is land no-one owns it, it
> belongs to everybody.

No, it does not. I think that if you look back in history (and it seems you are quite capable), you will see that there were always a people indiginous to the land they claim...the matter of KEEPING that land is what the fight is all about.

> America maybe a strong country but a strong culture?
> Disney and McDonalds.

Pardon me!!!??? Is that how I am looked at on this board? That I love Disney and eat at McDonald's every day because I am American? Can I say (as politely as possible here) SHUT UP!! You haven't an iota of what you are spewing about here. If you are going to slander us with such sub-par labels as you have, I have no respect for the opinion you are trying to come across with. It is disgusting when people do things and think things in such a small-minded capacity.

> The British don't need to humiliate Americans, you seem to be
> able to do that for yourself just fine.

I think that with this area, as with any other, some people have been raised with ideas of how the rest of the world is, and until you get out there and witness it for yourself, you will live in that small world that tells you all others are not your equal and you will never experience anything outside of your itty-bitty place.

> 95% of Americans don't have a passport. The richest nation on
> the planet and the US people do not know of the world outside
> it's borders.

Reference the above comment.

> Most Americans could tell you the geographical posistion of
> another State to the one they live in.
> I've worked in the States. I think I know what I'm talking
> about.

Is that ALL we can do regarding the states that surround us? What is the main point of that comment? That we aren't taught in school at around the age of 10 (my child who is almost 5 is already learning and knows all the states) ALL of the states, countries, and everything else that may be relevevant to our age in learning about the earth at that particular time?...WHAT did you do while you were "working" in the States? Live inside a box, and when you went out have earplugs in your ears and a hood over your head as to not see any intelligent life forms, experience what the US has to offer (outside of our money, apparently), see what we are all about outside of your small view of us?

> I'm sorry if you had a hard time when you visited Britain, Hey
> @#!!! happens, I'm sure it wasn't personal.

> The US cares about the US. All countries care about their own
> self interest first. Are the US are very caring to Cuba?
> To Vietnam in the Sixities?
> To Chile in the Seventies?
> To Nicaragua in the Eigthies?
> To Russia in the Nineties?
> And now it looks like it's China's turn.

Ummm, are you to say we just walked into those countries without giving ANY warning, without being ASKED to be there, without making ANY logical reason for doing such a thing? WHAT are you thinking as far as China goes? There was an ACCIDENT!!! Why should we have to apologize for an ACCIDENT that their pilot was just as responsible for? Have they apologized to US? Noooo...but that wouldn't matter to your little head in your small world. It seems all you do is pick a side and defend them no matter what they are all about. China is a known communist country, they have imprisoned our men and women because of an accident that took place and they want to ridicule us and make a situation exist that never should have in the first place. You AND China both need to understand SH.IT HAPPENS and you can't mess with it...
> Might isn't right.

Very nice how you made that rhyme like that.

> Perhaps people would have more respect for the US if the US
> showed more respect for the rights of other nations to self
> determination.

How on EARTH has the US even begun to show lack of respect as far as that goes? And what are you thinking as far as the lack of respect that the US supposedly doesn't show? You think that there are other countries out there showing gross lack of respect towards us as well? China, for example! Do you think we are just playing with other countries, other lives, other cultures for the f.uck of it? I sincerely believe you are just saying things now with hardly giving a thought to how you are presenting YOUR lack of respect for one of the most influential nations that exists. HOW did we, as the US, get to that position if we showed such a lack of respect in regards to other humans?

> The US fought for the right to live the way they wanted in the
> 18th Century. Now the US has become the bully.

I can't even dignify that statement with a response. I have no idea where you are trying to go with it!

Oh, is that it? Wow, that was too easy. Next time give me a bit of something worth arguing about. Your statements are merely views of someone who has clearly TRIED to educate themselves on lives and cultures of other countries and ideas, and have become clouded and biased based on your own small mind and the way you THINK things should have gone. The United States is not an evil, horrible country that thinks they are so great because they want to...it is because we have EARNED that point of view. And as far as people thinking we are evil, doesn't everyone in one country or another have to answer for some nasty past that existed long before we have come to live here? It is all a matter of being able to move on and live for the moment that surrounds us now. What is this "Answer for history, because of what your anscestors did to our anscestors" crap? Now, I personally have expanded my horizons to the point that I have friends from many walks of life. I am able to sit and listen to their point of view with the respect it takes to have an intelligent, mind expanding conversation, and vise-versa. And imagine that!!! I am AMERICAN!!! How is that possible if all we have been taught is that we are the best, and shouldn't bother with the thoughts and views that others possess since we don't have to worry about the thoughts and opinions of others? Hmmm, I wonder.

[Laura]

> but take a

> Take a look at what you, the US did to the Native American
> Indians,
> to the Buffalo, the Beaver.........
What in heaven's name does the beaver have to do with this? You must be kidding me!
> To be able to Preach you go to be able to set a good example.

> The US do not qualify.

> Look what US industry is doing to the developing world, sweat
> shops, child labour.

We don't operate sweat shops as a practice! We have had many unethical sick people FROM OTHER COUNTRIES come here and either do it on their own, or bring labour over to do it with, or do it in other countries without clear knowledge of the US. Believe me, if ever there were a country in support of children and their rights, it is definitely the US... The minute it is exposed and investigated, the said sweat shop is shut down.
> Wise up...no country is perfect ..not even the good old U, S of
> A.

Duh.

[Laura]

> Because your cultural values make you such an easy target.

> "We will descend on everyone unable to defend
> themselves."
That was written and sung by an Irish- Englishman...talk about opression!
> Sounds like US foreign policy.

Sounds like someone who had vastly different views than they do now, as they have chosen to LIVE here!!! America, the home of the free...the free who continue to come here lookinf for their opportunity in OUR country, and we give them that chance...What other country can you name that lets that happen so freely?! And offers the same opportunity that the US does?

[WorkingGirl]

> No, it does not. I think that if you look back in history (and
> it seems you are quite capable), you will see that there were
> always a people indiginous to the land they claim...the matter
> of KEEPING that land is what the fight is all about.

What does this mean?

> Pardon me!!!??? Is that how I am looked at on this board? That I
> love Disney and eat at McDonald's every day because I am
> American? Can I say (as politely as possible here) SHUT UP!!

Good argument.

You
> haven't an iota of what you are spewing about here. If you are
> going to slander us with such sub-par labels as you have, I have
> no respect for the opinion you are trying to come across with.

Good argument.
> It is disgusting when people do things and think things in such
> a small-minded capacity.

> I think that with this area, as with any other, some people have
> been raised with ideas of how the rest of the world is, and
> until you get out there and witness it for yourself, you will
> live in that small world that tells you all others are not your
> equal and you will never experience anything outside of your
> itty-bitty place.

So are you agreeing with me there or not?

> Reference the above comment.

> Is that ALL we can do regarding the states that surround us?
> What is the main point of that comment? That we aren't taught in
> school at around the age of 10 (my child who is almost 5 is
> already learning and knows all the states) ALL of the states,
> countries, and everything else that may be relevevant to our age
> in learning about the earth at that particular time?...WHAT did
> you do while you were "working" in the States? Live
> inside a box, and when you went out have earplugs in your ears
> and a hood over your head as to not see any intelligent life
> forms, experience what the US has to offer (outside of our
> money, apparently), see what we are all about outside of your
> small view of us?

I do understand your argument? what is the point you're trying to make?

> Ummm, are you to say we just walked into those countries without
> giving ANY warning, without being ASKED to be there, without
> making ANY logical reason for doing such a thing?

Please give examples.

WHAT are you
> thinking as far as China goes? There was an ACCIDENT!!! Why
> should we have to apologize for an ACCIDENT that their pilot was
> just as responsible for? Have they apologized to US? Noooo...but
> that wouldn't matter to your little head in your small world.

Who said that you had to apologise, I didn't read the posts.

It
> seems all you do is pick a side and defend them no matter what
> they are all about. China is a known communist country,

Shock Horror, Commies.......

they
> have imprisoned our men and women because of an accident that
> took place

Being questioned for Seven days and had 3 visits is hardly death row.

and they want to ridicule us and make a situation
> exist that never should have in the first place.

And it wouldn't if your country wasn't spying on them.

You AND China
> both need to understand SH.IT HAPPENS and you can't mess with
> it...

> Very nice how you made that rhyme like that.

> How on EARTH has the US even begun to show lack of respect as
> far as that goes?

No To Koyoto.

And what are you thinking as far as the lack
> of respect that the US supposedly doesn't show? You think that
> there are other countries out there showing gross lack of
> respect towards us as well? China, for example! Do you think we
> are just playing with other countries, other lives, other
> cultures for the f.uck of it?

No for the benefit of the US.

I sincerely believe you are just
> saying things now with hardly giving a thought to how you are
> presenting YOUR lack of respect for one of the most influential
> nations that exists. HOW did we, as the US, get to that position
> if we showed such a lack of respect in regards to other humans?

Greater resources and man power.

> I can't even dignify that statement with a response. I have no
> idea where you are trying to go with it!

> Oh, is that it? Wow, that was too easy.

too easy becasue all you have done in contradicted me, you have presented no argument.

Next time give me a bit
> of something worth arguing about. Your statements are merely
> views of someone who has clearly TRIED to educate themselves on
> lives and cultures of other countries and ideas, and have become
> clouded and biased based on your own small mind and the way you
> THINK things should have gone.

What does this mean?

The United States is not an evil,
> horrible country that thinks they are so great because they want
> to...it is because we have EARNED that point of view.

How have you earned it?

And as far
> as people thinking we are evil, doesn't everyone in one country
> or another have to answer for some nasty past that existed long
> before we have come to live here? It is all a matter of being
> able to move on and live for the moment that surrounds us now.

If you do not learn from History you will be forced to repeat it.

> What is this "Answer for history, because of what your
> anscestors did to our anscestors" crap? Now, I personally
> have expanded my horizons to the point that I have friends from
> many walks of life. I am able to sit and listen to their point
> of view with the respect it takes to have an intelligent, mind
> expanding conversation, and vise-versa. And imagine that!!! I am
> AMERICAN!!! How is that possible if all we have been taught is
> that we are the best, and shouldn't bother with the thoughts and
> views that others possess since we don't have to worry about the
> thoughts and opinions of others? Hmmm, I wonder.

What does this mean?

[Laura]

> What does this mean?
> Good argument.
> You
> Good argument.
> So are you agreeing with me there or not?
> I do understand your argument? what is the point you're trying
> to make?
> Please give examples.
> WHAT are you
> Who said that you had to apologise, I didn't read the posts.
> It
> Shock Horror, Commies.......
> they
> Being questioned for Seven days and had 3 visits is hardly death
> row.
> and they want to ridicule us and make a situation
> And it wouldn't if your country wasn't spying on them.
> You AND China
> No To Koyoto.
> And what are you thinking as far as the lack
> No for the benefit of the US.
> I sincerely believe you are just
> Greater resources and man power.
> too easy becasue all yu have done in contradicted me, you have
> presented no argument.
> Next time give me a bit
> What does this mean?
> The United States is not an evil,
> How have you earned it?
> And as far
> If you do not learn from History you will be forced to repeat
> it.
> What does this mean?

I am clearly done with this post and the person I have tried to show reason to. I am sure Working Girl won't understand, but I know almost everyone else will. To answer my response to your argument, Working Girl, with petty little "I don't understand what you mean; Good argument; give me examples..." I don't know what you are trying to get at, but you are obviously NOT one I would take aside and be able to have a logical, empathetic conversation with. You are one of those types who wants everyone to agree with them or else. That is fine, but I have no time for close-minded people like you. You are the ones who make this world feel so smushed down and sad all the time. No time to think of the positivity that exists...only want to wallow in the grief others have created just for you....so sad.

[withnail]

does that also include the bearded clam population??

> but take a

> Take a look at what you, the US did to the Native American
> Indians,
> to the Buffalo, the Beaver.........

> To be able to Preach you go to be able to set a good example.

> The US do not qualify.

> Look what US industry is doing to the developing world, sweat
> shops, child labour.

> Wise up...no country is perfect ..not even the good old U, S of
> A.

[Andrew S.]

> 95% of Americans don't have a passport. The richest nation on
> the planet and the US people do not know of the world outside
> it's borders.

> Most Americans could tell you the geographical posistion of
> another State to the one they live in.
> I've worked in the States. I think I know what I'm talking
> about.

OK, quick geography lesson...have you ever heard on the PACIFIC ocean? you have?!?! that's super...ok...now more advanced...have you ever heard of the ATLANTIC ocean? allright! you have? that's great...

ok...now...let's look at a map of the U.S.......hey! that's crazy! mr pacific ocean and ms. pacific ocean surround the US!!wow...gee...wouldn't that make travelling a little harder and a little more expensive?

i guess not according to workinggirl!! as americans, the ingredients of a McDonald's McRib gives us the amazing ability to teleport instantaneously to any country in the world! (she told me so herself!!)

so why the heck don't more americans travel!?

A: they're all stupid Chevrolet driving Baptists!!!

-Andrew S.