Good Songs That Could Have Been GREAT Songs

[That's Enough For Me]

I had the opportunity to listen back to Friday Mourning last night for the first time since it first came out.

Does anyone share the view the although Moz has brought in new songwriters, the music hasn't really changed or even slightly deteriorated?

I'm thinking about the arrangement and lyrics for Friday Mourning and how it's spoiled by the 'unisong' approach again. At times, fans were baying for Whyte and Boorer to be replaced and in part, they got their wish, but nothing's changed. Could it be that Moz is keeping the music flat to retain the spotlight on the vocal melody and lyrical content?

Songs that seem to me to have been undersold by the unspectacluar nature of the musical accompanyment include:

- Friday Mourning (Should have been an epic on an EDILS scale)
- Christian Dior (Or Christian 3chords as it should be called)
- He Cried (The opening bars are still a crime)
- The World Is Full of 3 Chord Songs (A Smiths Lyric and Melody if ever there was one)
- I'll Never Be Anyone's Hero Now' (Again, A Strangeways/Viva Hate period sentiment with a minimal as possible verse accompanyment and an attempt at Radiohead's no surprises for the chorus)

There are others but that's enough for me

What do you think?

[Uncle Liam]

What fans were baying for Boorer and Whyte to be replaced?

It not solo, its a band. Boz and Alain are integral.

[That's Enough For Me]

What fans were baying for Boorer and Whyte to be replaced?

It not solo, its a band. Boz and Alain are integral.

There was a lot of posts in the pre and post Quarry months who were increasingly disappointed with the quality of the music. This was usually countered by the pro-boorer/whyte fans who had got into Morrissey less than 10 years ago.

If Boorer/Whyte/Farrell etc are getting paid an equal amount to Moz, I'll agree it's a band. However, I think you'll find they are paid musicians on Moz's payroll and are not legally a band unit. Morrissey is free to get rid of any/all of them, they are not free to replace him with a different singer. Solo with backing group - not a band.

[Uncle Liam]

In that case the Smiths werent a band. Neither are Oasis. Neither are Stereophonics, Neither are The Who, Guns N Roses certainly arent etc etc.

Why does Morrissey always say "We have a new single" "Radio 1 wont play our songs" etc etc? If Morrissey was a solo artist, he would right all the songs himself, and the band would be stood behind a curtain or in the dark while he sang.

[That's Enough For Me]

In that case the Smiths werent a band. Neither are Oasis. Neither are Stereophonics, Neither are The Who, Guns N Roses certainly arent etc etc.

Why does Morrissey always say "We have a new single" "Radio 1 wont play our songs" etc etc? If Morrissey was a solo artist, he would right all the songs himself, and the band would be stood behind a curtain or in the dark while he sang.

No, a singer/songwriter writes everything themselves. Not to be confused with a solo artist who employs musicians to write for him.

Moz enjoys a sense of comraderie with his long term collaborators hence the we/our etc. In no way could they be considered a band. Who could you talk to about 'Morrissey' and get the reply 'Oh yeah, not sure who the singer is but isn't that the band with Dean Butterworth in it'

Or 'Viva Hate' that's by that band with Vini Reilly in it.

Plus, the 'bandmates' are often stood in the dark/shadows while Moz performs.

The Smiths were a band legally speaking, as Moz found out to his cost of around £1m

We don't post on Morrissey - The band Website do we? We post here on Morrissey-Solo.

Anyway, back to the point of the thread.

[Electric]

Why does Morrissey always say "We have a new single" "Radio 1 wont play our songs" etc etc?

That's because he thinks he is two people, didn't you know?



Bad joke, sorry. But I generally agree with the starter of the thread. It's all about vocal melody, lyrical content and His presence these days. Thanks god it is powerful enough. I would be there even if Morrissey was just reading the poetry with no music whatsorever.

Interesting music (as an opposite to the backing tracks) would be a welcome change though. (Fingers crossed for Morricone collaboration)

[Uncle Liam]

No, a singer/songwriter writes everything themselves. Not to be confused with a solo artist who employs musicians to write for him.

Moz enjoys a sense of comraderie with his long term collaborators hence the we/our etc. In no way could they be considered a band. Who could you talk to about 'Morrissey' and get the reply 'Oh yeah, not sure who the singer is but isn't that the band with Dean Butterworth in it'

Or 'Viva Hate' that's by that band with Vini Reilly in it.

Plus, the 'bandmates' are often stood in the dark/shadows while Moz performs.

The Smiths were a band legally speaking, as Moz found out to his cost of around £1m

We don't post on Morrissey - The band Website do we? We post here on Morrissey-Solo.

Anyway, back to the point of the thread.

yep, having seen Morrissey a meagre 22 times, i can honestly say that the band are always stood in the dark during the gig.


Anyway, the point of the thread, good songs that could have been better. To Me You Are A Work Of Art, should've had an extra minute long instrumental on it at the end.

[mspendl828]

Plus, the 'bandmates' are often stood in the dark/shadows while Moz performs.

Clearly you haven't been to any gigs then, and haven't seen Boz, Gary and Jesse at the front of the stage playing while Moz stands at the back by the drum kit.

Anyway, this thread is pretty pointless, in my opinon, as Moz is clearly happy with what he has and doesn't want anything different. And it's not as if people were demanding Marr to leave the Smiths because they didn't like Shakespeare's Sister, for example.

The songs are the songs, and to say "well this is what I would've done" is pointless. If you can do better, go and write your own songs and get a record deal.

[Jones]

It's a band in everything but name. It operates in exactly the same way The Smiths did. Do you think Morrissey used to take a democratic vote in The Smiths about what he wanted to do?

[mspendl828]

Exactly, that's why blaming the band for the music is entirely missing the point. If you don't like the music, blame SPM as he's the one who's ok-ing it all, he's the one who is keeping Boz and Alain around and he's the one who's hiring the producers to make the albums sound the way he wants.

[Nikita]

Band or not, the production on most of the YATQ session sucks

[mspendl828]

- The World Is Full of 3 Chord Songs (A Smiths Lyric and Melody if ever there was one)

The Hand That Rocks The Cradle - three chords! (G6, Cadd9, Dsus2)

And The World Is Full of Crashing Bores - hilarious name change, by the way, has, infact, eight chords! (Bb, F, Gm, A, D, C#, C, Eb) So that argument is dead.

And besides, to judge a song based on the number of chords is stupid. Very, very stupid. Does this mean that all blues songs ever written are shit as they use, generally, three chords? No, of course it doesn't. For example. There Is A Light That Never Goes Out has the grand total of five different chords, where as Work Is A Four-Letter Word has nine chords. I guess that means WIAFLW is a better song then, yeah?

[mspendl828]

Band or not, the production on most of the YATQ session sucks

Hey, Morrissey chose him, so there's not a lot you can do about it.

[That's Enough For Me]

Exactly, that's why blaming the band for the music is entirely missing the point. If you don't like the music, blame SPM as he's the one who's ok-ing it all, he's the one who is keeping Boz and Alain around and he's the one who's hiring the producers to make the albums sound the way he wants.

Is that not what I'm questioning in paragraph 3 of my opening post on this thread?

Morrissey-Solo, the place for reasoned debate!

With regard to the 'pointless thread' remark due to Moz being happy with what he's got. Why would that preclude us from discussing the musical merits of songs. Why have a message board? Why get out of bed? Why shave?

[That's Enough For Me]

The Hand That Rocks The Cradle - three chords! (G6, Cadd9, Dsus2)

And The World Is Full of Crashing Bores - hilarious name change, by the way, has, infact, eight chords! (Bb, F, Gm, A, D, C#, C, Eb) So that argument is dead.

And besides, to judge a song based on the number of chords is stupid. Very, very stupid. Does this mean that all blues songs ever written are shit as they use, generally, three chords? No, of course it doesn't. For example. There Is A Light That Never Goes Out has the grand total of five different chords, where as Work Is A Four-Letter Word has nine chords. I guess that means WIAFLW is a better song then, yeah?

I've never seen a point missed quite so well as that post. Impressive stuff.

[mspendl828]

I would have no problem discussing music merits of songs with you, but you seem to base a lot of your opinion on how many chords a song has! And even then you don't actually know how many chords there are, as I pointed out in for Crashing Bores.

[mspendl828]

I've never seen a point missed quite so well as that post. Impressive stuff.

I'm sorry, but you listed songs you felt could be better, and while he He Cried you said you didn't like the intro, which is fair enough, for Crashing Bores you made the point that you thought it had three chords. How else is that to be interpreted?

[That's Enough For Me]

I would have no problem discussing music merits of songs with you, but you seem to base a lot of your opinion on how many chords a song has! And even then you don't actually know how many chords there are, as I pointed out in for Crashing Bores.

No, you decided that's what I meant. My '3 chord' snipes were a sacastic commentary on how 'same-y' many songs written by the 'gods amongst men' sound, showing little variation and hence a parallel is drawn to '3 chord songs'.

So, let's take you up on your offer. Do you feel that the songs I mention in my top post could have become legitimate greats with more imaginative music and do you think that Moz is to blame for keeping it down to backing tracks and bear bones type accompanyment.

If so, why would he do this?

[mspendl828]

OK, well initially I don't think that many songs by Boz and Alain sound same-y. The only two i would say share a lot of similarities would be I Am Two People and Anybody's Hero, which have remarkably similar intros.

Now that being said I would suggest that many people - not me, nessarilly, but people that I know - think all the early Smiths songs sound the same. ie, jingle jangle guitars.

With the songs you referenced, I think Friday Mourning is excellent. I'm not saying you're wrong with your opnion, but for me, it's a great song and I fully enjoy Alain's composition.
Christion Dior I think is another very good song, and sounds to me really quite different from other tracks Moz has done while still staying in the same genre.
He Cried is just rubbish, and that's coming from someone who generally likes Maladjusted.
Crashing Bores doesn't do much for me either, although it picks up towards the end and lyrics are pretty clumsy at times in my opinion.
After first hearing it, I didn't really like Hero all that much, however it's grown on me massively and now it's really one of my favourites, especailly it's live performances which were excellent.

I don't mean to sound, erm, trolling, or anything, but I have great difficulty in thinking whether the songs could be better with different music. The songs are the songs, y'know? I'm not trying to be awkward, but that's what they are and they're not going to be re-done so I just can't get my head around thinking "oh if only Crashing Bores had a mandolin part" or anything.

Clearly Moz is to blame for "backing tracks and bear bones type accompanyment" if that's what you think it is. I don't though. I thought ROTT was an excellent album, light years ahead of the mediocore YATQ which is just as good, no better or worse, than Maladjusted.

As I said, i don't share your feelings towards the music the band are producing so I can't answer your "why would he do this" conspiracy question.

[That's Enough For Me]

That's cool, I appreciate your thoughts.

For me, I think I'm really commenting on what I see as wasted opportunties. I see the majority of songs since Southpaw as being uninspired musically and sometimes lyrically. This is bound to happen when you set such a high standard as the Smiths did.

For me, I hear a lot of the Whyte/Boorer songs as being weak/thin, lumpen, leaden, bluster-rock, pub-rock and all the other unkind descriptions that have been thrown their way over the years.

For me, these songs could've been so much better with more interesting or even memorable musical pieces attached to them. When I heard, I Knew I Was Next and Noise Is The Best Revenge, I thought it had hit rock, rock bottom. But the introduction of Tobias doesn't seem to have changed anything which makes me think that Moz is keen to have the bearest landscapes to pin his thoughts on these days.

Sadly, I don't share your view on ROTT but it's all about opinions isn't it. Vauxhall was the last great album to my ears and like many, I started at the Smiths first album.

I wonder if Alain Whyte's departure was anything to do with the fact that he couldn't express himself musically, as fully as he wanted to within the Moz setup.