Vegans and Vegetarians: a question RE: fake crab...

[Folly]

Can any of you tell me what the rule is pertaining to this weird 'meat' that is so used in many sushi restaurants, as well as in other delicacies I have noticed...I don't personally eat crab of any kind- just too icky as far as I'm concerned. But I was wondering if anyone knew what fake crab is made out of, and if vegans can eat it...I've worked over 60 hours this week, I suppose it's finally gotten to me, and now I'm all punchy! Look at it as a curious question, and hopefully someone will answer me!

Ta!

[IMPOSTER]

Fake crab is just a cheaper substitute that is definitely NOT vegan. It is also known as surimi, and is made from fish, minced, with the juice from crabs, among other things, added for flavouring. So don't go near it!

[Hibernia]

The 'rule' is that people that believe there are 'rules' and people who are vegan or vegeterian are wankers. Glad I could be of help.

[IMPOSTER]

No, the rule is that people who believe that the rule is that people who believe there are rules are wankers, are wankers themselves. It's that simple. Everyone else is okay.

[Onewhotalksanyway]

> people who are vegan or vegeterian are wankers.

You don't know me.

[Blue.Girl]

I make a concerted effort not to eat "fake meats" of any kind, since I believe it just perpetuates the idea that vegetarians are missing out by not murdering animals for their food. There are so many wonderful choices available to us, why would anyone want to fuel the fire of the murderers' ideas that they are right?

Most sushi restaurants are willing to make some lovely vegetarian rolls for one, if they're not listed on the menu. There are many ingredients they use with their regular fish pieces that make delicious fare for us!

> Can any of you tell me what the rule is pertaining to this weird
> 'meat' that is so used in many sushi restaurants, as well as in
> other delicacies I have noticed...I don't personally eat crab of
> any kind- just too icky as far as I'm concerned. But I was
> wondering if anyone knew what fake crab is made out of, and if
> vegans can eat it...I've worked over 60 hours this week, I
> suppose it's finally gotten to me, and now I'm all punchy! Look
> at it as a curious question, and hopefully someone will answer
> me!

> Ta!




Vegetarian Pages

[Kirstie]

> I make a concerted effort not to eat "fake meats" of
> any kind, since I believe it just perpetuates the idea that
> vegetarians are missing out by not murdering animals for their
> food.

I've been a vegetarian for 9 years and am trying to go vegan and I have to say that I hate veggie stuff that tases too much like meat-I mean, it freaks me out because what's the point. I'm in it for the animal rights aspect but still; meat is disgusting. I hate the morningstar sausage and chickpatties because it just tastes too close. I like sticking to portabella mushrooms, tempei, and tofu. However, I have to say that I am glad that there is veggie stuff out there that advertises it tastes just like meat because I know people who are trying to switch to be vegetarian and that really helps them.(i.e. think tofurkey at thanksgiving; it allows people to still be traditional and honors cultural values while simultaneously tasting a bit like what they remember from the last year) So basically, I understand what you are saying and there's alot of stuff out there that gives you good soy protein without tasting like meat but it does serve a purpose for the on the fence vegetarians and vegans out there.

Kirstie

[suzanne]

> Fake crab is just a cheaper substitute that is definitely NOT
> vegan. It is also known as surimi, and is made from fish,
> minced, with the juice from crabs, among other things, added for
> flavouring. So don't go near it!

auggghh!!

I was actually offered some of this stuff last night, but thank GOD I blinked at them like I was an idiot and they offered me pasta instead.

that was indeed a close one.

[Folly]

However, I have to say that I am glad that
> there is veggie stuff out there that advertises it tastes just
> like meat because I know people who are trying to switch to be
> vegetarian and that really helps them.(i.e. think tofurkey at
> thanksgiving; it allows people to still be traditional and
> honors cultural values while simultaneously tasting a bit like
> what they remember from the last year) So basically, I
> understand what you are saying and there's alot of stuff out
> there that gives you good soy protein without tasting like meat
> but it does serve a purpose for the on the fence vegetarians and
> vegans out there.

> Kirstie

In regards to the tofurky: I made it for my brother in his vegetarian ways (I am hardly vegetarian, although I find myself not eating meat out of pure not eating it for days at a time) and he and I and my Dad all enjoyed it completely. It was a nice thing to have to include him, and to find out it was quite tasty was a treat as well. My brother stopped eating meat due to the fact he believes it contributed to our mother's cancer so greatly. Although she was such a healthy woman and ate very little fat, it still got her in the colon. He also has started to understand the sickness of the way animals are treated as well. I prefer to not focus on that, and I like meat besides. Due to the possible mad cow scare in the US, I will abstain from it for as long as needed. But otherwise, I enjoy a hamburger, chicken sandwich, turkey, etc as much as I crave that wonderful veggie sushi I get at my local restaurant- marinated carrots, avocado and cucumber...MMM! So whatever. As I have posted before, to each his own, and I have my causes I hope others respect my views on as much as I respect how you feel on the animal concerns. I just don't necessarily subscribe to them to the extent most who frequent this board do is all! I hope to not be lambasted on this point: I know there are some that could really jump on this with me!!! But I LURVE you all, I just think we all can be adult about how we subjugate ourselves sometimes.

Ta-ta!

[suzanne]

> I make a concerted effort not to eat "fake meats" of
> any kind, since I believe it just perpetuates the idea that
> vegetarians are missing out by not murdering animals for their
> food. There are so many wonderful choices available to us, why
> would anyone want to fuel the fire of the murderers' ideas that
> they are right?

But I don't see it that way. Where exactly do you draw the line of "meat substitutions"? Tofu fills in on that roll to an extent, and let's not forget our good friend soy. if it's shaped like a meat patty, is it suddenly not OK to eat? what about veggie burgers where the "meat" is obviously a bunch of vegetables mashed together in a patty form? can I not eat my veggie burger? that obviously implies that I'm being suckered into the standards of a meat eating society.

I instead tend to view it like this: if there is a substitution out there that is better for you and it tastes like meat, why not eat it? how can a carnivore justify eating a burger loaded down with a large slice of fatty beef, full of growth hormones and hanging in a slaughter house until near putrification, when there is a vegetable substitute that tastes similar and is not as disgusting and is healthier for you?

but I will say one thing: even pre-packaged vegeterian meals are not the healthiest thing, nor are pre-packaged snacks. As I have recently taken up cooking a lot more for myself than I have in the past, I have noticed my energy level has risen in general. I dont feel like going home and going to bed.

More strangely, since I have been also cooking a lot more of my desserts rather than buying them...and many of these recipes are coming from some French cookbook that was actually written by some french countess and been sitting on someone's shelf and recently been sold to a 2nd hand book store where I thus snatched it...my weight has not changed, possibly going down a slight bit (but I can't really tell because I had also been sick for an entire month, and even to this day, have a remnant of this garbage in my chest) I also don't feel my appetite being stimulated into running back and forth to the kitchen for cookies or snacks.

> Most sushi restaurants are willing to make some lovely
> vegetarian rolls for one, if they're not listed on the menu.
> There are many ingredients they use with their regular fish
> pieces that make delicious fare for us!

really?

maybe sushi restaurants are more trustworthy than other places. I don't know how many times i've ordered something without meat and it comes back with chicken in it.

[mozdef]

some of us don't eat meat for health reasons and for a better diet. not because meat is murder. i do it for myself not for the animals

[Lifeguard Sleeping]

> I instead tend to view it like this: if there is a substitution
> out there that is better for you and it tastes like meat, why
> not eat it? how can a carnivore justify eating a burger loaded
> down with a large slice of fatty beef, full of growth hormones
> and hanging in a slaughter house until near putrification, when
> there is a vegetable substitute that tastes similar and is not
> as disgusting and is healthier for you?

Exactly!

Some people seem to think that meals are not complete unless they contain some sort of meat product. I personally get annoyed whenever someone asks me, "so what DO you eat, then?"

They can't grasp the following concepts:

meat sauce --> marinara souce

hamburger --> veggieburger
They've really made strides in the veggieburger field, as far as getting them to taste like a beef burger. Remember a few years ago, when you had to make your own burgers out of crumbly, dry ingredients? You mixed them with water, formed patties and fried them - they were so grainy!

chicken burrito --> bean burrito
They're filled with so many different things that the chicken doesn't really contribute to the over-all taste, so you wouldn't be missing much if you skipped it.

The only meat product I've ever really craved was a hot dog and I was able to find a suitable tofu substitute for it; it tastes amazingly similar to a meat hot dog (and it has pretty much the same consistency), yet you can eat it without the disgust/guilt.

With so many options, there's really no real need to consume animals.

And no, I'm NOT trying to convert you carnivores - to each his/her own. But I don't see the point in killing an animal just to satisfy a craving you can easily satisfy by vegetarian alternatives. It's hardly a sacrifice to stop eating meat.

[bornmad]

> I make a concerted effort not to eat "fake meats" of
> any kind, since I believe it just perpetuates the idea that
> vegetarians are missing out by not murdering animals for their
> food.

While you're at it, why don't you cease walking because it perpetrates the idea that humans can travel freely over any terrain crushing the multitude of insects that exist upon it.

I am a vegetarian and there is nothing more annoying than hearing another vegetarian claiming that meat is murder.

Murder is a human concept. Factory farming is unethical, inhumane animal treatment, but it is not murder.

These kind of attitudes are what make most people think that vegetarinas are naive, bunny-loving loons who cannot deal with certain realities of the natural world.

So we are to believe that everyone who has eaten meat in the past is a murderer? Of course not. Meat is essential when it is essential, and it is currently not essential. Factory farming is not essential, and it perpetrates animal cruelty.

> There are so many wonderful choices available to us, why
> would anyone want to fuel the fire of the murderers' ideas that
> they are right?

Most ethical vegetarians don't stop eating meat because they find it repulsive, they stop eating meat because it is processed in an inhumane way.

Tell me, in what way do you support the factory farming industry if you are giving no money to it? So you are telling me that by sending the message that meat tastes good vegetarians are now going to begin converting to meat eating lifestyles once again solely because of that? So people who are interested in the ethical treatment of animals will think twice about becoming a vegetarian because they feel they will be missing out on a particular flavor of food? Please.

As an ethical vegetarian either you care, or you don't care and the argument ends there.

I don't think too many vegetarians would say that they found meat repulsive when they were eating it. Meat tastes good, it's suppossed to taste good, it is in our evolutionary lineage. Meat tasting good has nothing to do with being a vegetarian.

A cause is not helped when it is reduced to such nit pickiness and dramatic philosophizing.

In conclusion: meat is not murder. You have been listening to far too many Morrissey albums. Murder is only relevant to human beings. Meat eating in the main stream fashion is unethical, and unecessary.

Sometimes I wonder if some people became vegetarians to add a bit of novelty to themselves or if they are turly interested in supporting the philosophical argument for doing so.

[Sharron Needles]

[Kirstie]

> I am a vegetarian and there is nothing more annoying than
> hearing another vegetarian claiming that meat is murder.

But meat IS murder. Meat means that an animal was killed against its will so that someone could have dinner. That to me is just as bad as cannibalism. I see very little difference here.

> Murder is a human concept. Factory farming is unethical,
> inhumane animal treatment, but it is not murder.

It is murder because the end result is that the animals die; thus we have murdered them. And you don't know that murder is just a human concept unless you talk to animals and understand what they are saying. I'm sure animals have a sense of evil and what constitutes murder. They certainly are not all committing suicide. You seem to be intelligent enough to know how bad these slaughterhouses are so I have no idea why you don't consider it murder.

> These kind of attitudes are what make most people think that
> vegetarinas are naive, bunny-loving loons who cannot deal with
> certain realities of the natural world.

First of all, it isn't natural for us to eat meat. I've studied alot of primate anatomy and just by looking at the difference in dental features between a carnivore and herbivore, it's plain to see that humans are much closer to herbivores. In addition, if it was so natural for us to eat meat, why does it remain to be the leading cause of colon-rectal cancers and greatly contributes to heart disease?

Second of all, our digestive systems are not equipped to handle eating meat as well as it digests vegetarian or vegan (for that matter) products. Think of how many people are lactose intolerant! We have a difficult enough time with animals products alone. It's disgusting if you think about it-we are the only species to drink another species' milk. Yuck.

> Most ethical vegetarians don't stop eating meat because they
> find it repulsive, they stop eating meat because it is processed
> in an inhumane way.

Actually I find it truly repulsive. After dissecting a human in gross anatomy and realizing that, for a large part, animals have the same bones, muscles, and blood vessels, I couldn't help but want to throw up when I looked at a chicken leg and the blood or "juices" surrounding it and I could name the artery that was severed. Meat is repulsive! I can't see a steak without seeing the cow, I can't see ham without seeing the pig. I am incapable of not seeing those things.

> I don't think too many vegetarians would say that they found
> meat repulsive when they were eating it. Meat tastes good, it's
> suppossed to taste good, it is in our evolutionary lineage. Meat
> tasting good has nothing to do with being a vegetarian.

If meat tastes so good, why do we like to cook it and add so many spices to it? I think you are not realizing that we spend a great amount of time and energy covering up for the awful taste of meat and the people who do eat it raw are seen as taboo.

> Sometimes I wonder if some people became vegetarians to add a
> bit of novelty to themselves or if they are turly interested in
> supporting the philosophical argument for doing so.

I became a vegetarian because I realized one day that I could never eat my cat. therefore, why the hell would I eat any other animal? It just seemed logical to me.

Kirstie (who proudly wears a Meat is Murder bumper sticker on her car)

[Somny]

> But meat IS murder. Meat means that an animal was killed against
> its will so that someone could have dinner. That to me is just
> as bad as cannibalism. I see very little difference here.

...that's it. and some people use to say "the animals are raised to be eaten,so what's wrong with that?" this belief is a dangerous position to take cause it can enable one to justify some practices that are universally condemned. could not the nazis defend their murder of the jews by saying "but we rounded them up to be killed"?

> I became a vegetarian because I realized one day that I could
> never eat my cat. therefore, why the hell would I eat any other
> animal? It just seemed logical to me.

this is perfect! have you noticed how sweet and dear are the pigs? just like your cat, or my dogfriend who died recentlly.

that cat below is for you. hope you enjoy.

[Somny]

> But I don't see it that way. Where exactly do you draw the line
> of "meat substitutions"? Tofu fills in on that roll to
> an extent, and let's not forget our good friend soy. if it's
> shaped like a meat patty, is it suddenly not OK to eat? what
> about veggie burgers where the "meat" is obviously a
> bunch of vegetables mashed together in a patty form? can I not
> eat my veggie burger? that obviously implies that I'm being
> suckered into the standards of a meat eating society.

...have you tried spaghetty made from spicach or soy? it's so tasty!!!!!! and the soy meat is able to reduce the levels of low desity lipoprotein(bad)cholesterol over one month. i don't go to the extreme to eliminate these things. it's alredy so hard to eliminate those other forms of animal products,like shampoos, cosmetics, cleaners, etc... i eat my veggie burger with no regrets.

[bornmad]

> But meat IS murder. Meat means that an animal was killed against
> its will so that someone could have dinner. That to me is just
> as bad as cannibalism. I see very little difference here.

Okay, I understand you use the term murder for animals as well, but in reality it is not murder. There is no concept of murder among animals, the concept of murder is among humans.

Homo sapiens. "Homicide."

> It is murder because the end result is that the animals die;
> thus we have murdered them.

You know I sympathize with your sentiments, but please see above.

> And you don't know that murder is just a human concept unless you >talk to animals and understand what they are saying.

I can't talk to animals and neither can you.

I have attempted to talk to many animals, and a verbal conversation failed to develop. Maybe it was just me.

> I'm sure animals have a sense of evil and
> what constitutes murder. They certainly are not all committing
> suicide. You seem to be intelligent enough to know how bad these
> slaughterhouses are so I have no idea why you don't consider it
> murder.

Animals have no concept of evil that is a human invention, and therefore the only reason that we have animal cruelty laws is because of our concept of evil and ethical reasoning.

Animals would not institute animal cruelty laws. They have no moral sense. Apes we can argue about. I would almost consider it murder if an ape was cruelly tortured and killed. But that's still debatable.

And of course these animals are not committing suicide they are being unethically slaughtered.

> First of all, it isn't natural for us to eat meat. I've studied
> alot of primate anatomy and just by looking at the difference in
> dental features between a carnivore and herbivore, it's plain to
> see that humans are much closer to herbivores.

Again I sympathize with your sentiments, but technically speaking you are wrong. Humans are omnivores, they are equipped to eat both meat and plant matter.

Human beings just aren't meant to eat meat solely.

Also it's not about what human beings were meant to do, it's about accommodating the present time in the evolutionary cycle, and realizing that eating meat is slowly becoming a greatly impractical means of feeding people, just like eating plant matter was during the ice age.

> In addition, if
> it was so natural for us to eat meat, why does it remain to be
> the leading cause of colon-rectal cancers and greatly
> contributes to heart disease?

Because we eat so much of it. It's too big a part of our diet. Our bodies were not meant to sustain such large quantities in our diet.

> Second of all, our digestive systems are not equipped to handle
> eating meat as well as it digests vegetarian or vegan (for that
> matter) products. Think of how many people are lactose
> intolerant!

We're not talking about lactose intolerance though. Meat eating nutritionists even agree that eating dairy products is unhealthy and unnatural for humans to do.

No other animal eats dairy after weaning, correct, but many other animals that are omnivores eat meat throughout their life.

Chimpanzees eat meat occasionally as a dietary supplement, and as a delicacy, but is not a large part of their diet like it is in a human's.

> We have a difficult enough time with animals
> products alone. It's disgusting if you think about it-we are the
> only species to drink another species' milk. Yuck.

I agree, as does Woof Woof

Right Woof Woof...?

He said right.

> If meat tastes so good, why do we like to cook it and add so
> many spices to it?

We cook it because we are unable to process the bacteria that is present within it. Cavemen cooked meat in order to rid it of bacteria.

Human beings over many thousands of years slowly became a cleaner species, making their immune systems weaker and weaker.

That's why a wild animal can eat raw meat, but a human can't
I'm sure cavemen were not too concerned about the way meat tasted.

And many people don't put spices on their meat to cover up the taste of meat, that's just adding variety not masking the taste.

And there are many people that eat certain meats raw, so that example is not valid.

> I think you are not realizing that we spend a
> great amount of time and energy covering up for the awful taste
> of meat and the people who do eat it raw are seen as taboo.

It's taboo because it's more dangerous to eat it raw, but many people do eat things raw, frying it adds texture and kills bacteria.

Where are these statistics that many people spend time masking the taste of meat?

People eat steak like it is all the time. Spices are spices, they spice things up.

It's simply not true that people spend time masking the flavor of meat, for the sake of making it bearable, if that were the case then human beings would simply eat tons of vegetables and mask the taste of them, which they don't.

Meat is preferred by a lot of people because it is indulgent, and fills them with large dose of protein.

The vegetarian debate comes down to this simple idea, eating meat solely because it tastes good is putting delicacy before torture, and that is wrong. It is that simple.

It is cruelly torturing an animal for the sake of having something that tastes good to you.

Also there is the environmental issue, and the idea that we cannot continue to sustain a growing population on meat, and maintain rainforest land, or untouched land in general.

It's not about eating a healthy diet, or murder, or meat not tasting good, or being fringe, or romanticizing the existence of animals, and anthropomorphosizing them. It's simply about making a diet change to end the suffering of a large number of animals.

I'm sick of all the dramatics by animal rights groups. I'm sick of the anthropomorphosizing tactics, and the romanticization of the existence of animals by them as well.

It only trivializes the movement, and makes it seem wacky, and naive.

If people spent more time trying to let people rationally know what goes on in the meat industry, instead of trying to stretch the reality of life on this planet, then we will get a lot farther than dressing up in animal costumes, and dumping blood on people's outfits.

Humans are humans, animals are animals.

They are only different by degrees, and consciousness can be detected amongst many of them, that is what we should be arguing.

[Kirstie]

> Animals have no concept of evil that is a human invention, and
> therefore the only reason that we have animal cruelty laws is
> because of our concept of evil and ethical reasoning.

you think humans have a concept of what is evil and how to reason ethically? Wow, you give us an awful lot of credit (j/k)

> Because we eat so much of it. It's too big a part of our diet.
> Our bodies were not meant to sustain such large quantities in
> our diet.

yeah well i don't think anyone's gotten cancer or heart disease from eating too many vegetables. I can kind of see your point and it's ok that you think that way but I just can't see it with what i've learned in the classes I've taken at college.

> Also there is the environmental issue, and the idea that we
> cannot continue to sustain a growing population on meat, and
> maintain rainforest land, or untouched land in general.

yeah i agree with this

> It's not about eating a healthy diet, or murder, or meat not
> tasting good, or being fringe, or romanticizing the existence of
> animals, and anthropomorphosizing them. It's simply about making
> a diet change to end the suffering of a large number of animals.

> I'm sick of all the dramatics by animal rights groups. I'm sick
> of the anthropomorphosizing tactics, and the romanticization of
> the existence of animals by them as well.

> It only trivializes the movement, and makes it seem wacky, and
> naive.

I don't think vegetarians are looked down on because of their different tactics. I think half the carnivorian population doesn't even give a @#!!! or wouldn't understand why people would choose not to eat meat and the other half is kindof curious and want to know more.
And I don't think vegetarians get alot of press either. I think the most vegetarian press comes from doctors on little news specials (when there's very little going on in a city or region to talk about) who talk about how it is healthier to cut back on meat and eat vegetables.
But I've never heard anyone say anything to suggest we're radicalistic, etc. There's not even enough mainstream media (I mean, yeah there's PETA but how many carnivores are going to spend their time looking at that?) for people to feel that way. I think people are far more influenced in their day to day interactions besides.

> They are only different by degrees, and consciousness can be
> detected amongst many of them, that is what we should be
> arguing.

this is quite an ironic statement from a vegetarian who criticises others for anthropomorphosizing animals in the very same post! Although, it is a discussion I'd certainly enjoy.

Kirstie

[Seasick]

Despite this argument, all it boils down to is how you personally feel on the issue. If you're a vegetarian, more power to ya...but like most things, it's all about making individual choices and we shouldn't chastise others for not sharing the same convictions...vegetarian or otherwise.