Planting Columbines

[grrrl's slave]

I am not known for being sentimental, and I don't usually where my feelings on my sleeve, but I must say that I have been crying all week. There is something wrong with the way we live and approach this world; that a tragedy like this could occur, that we all stop, reflect, then move on; that it will happen again --- something terribly wrong. It does no good to assign blame. It does no good to say that it is the fault or problem of others.

Forgive the incoherence of this. I am grappling for meaning....


Memory is a Garden

[jigger]

> I am not known for being sentimental, and I don't usually where¿ my feelings on my sleeve, but I must say that I have been crying¿ all week. There is something wrong with the way we live and¿ approach this world; that a tragedy like this could occur, that¿ we all stop, reflect, then move on; that it will happen again¿ --- something terribly wrong. It does no good to assign blame.¿ It does no good to say that it is the fault or problem of¿ others.¿ Forgive the incoherence of this. I am grappling for meaning....

As a teacher, I see youngsters in trouble like these occasionally. We do all we can to help them, but the responsibility goes back frequently to the parents who have no time to love and nurture their children. Computers, TV, and music are their baby sitters. Guidance counselors are covered up with the requests that teachers send them. It is so frustrating. You want to just shake some sense into these parents for giving their children nothing but money, not love and attention they so desperately need. I've had to try to explain all this to my class of fifth graders who will be in middle school next year. They are frightened for their safety. Even in my upscale community, there is no guarantee that they will be safe.

[troubled joe]

> As a teacher, I see youngsters in trouble like these¿ occasionally. We do all we can to help them, but the¿ responsibility goes back frequently to the parents who have no¿ time to love and nurture their children. Computers, TV, and¿ music are their baby sitters. Guidance counselors are covered up¿ with the requests that teachers send them. It is so frustrating.¿ You want to just shake some sense into these parents for giving¿ their children nothing but money, not love and attention they so¿ desperately need. I've had to try to explain all this to my¿ class of fifth graders who will be in middle school next year.¿ They are frightened for their safety. Even in my upscale¿ community, there is no guarantee that they will be safe.

we need to hear from more teachers who have a large portion of the brunt of caring for adolescent people...thanks for sharing, jigger...

[Suzanne]

> desperately need. I've had to try to explain all this to my¿ class of fifth graders who will be in middle school next year.¿ They are frightened for their safety. Even in my upscale¿ community, there is no guarantee that they will be safe.

Not trying to be a know-it-all here, but part of the problem that happens with this is not TV or the media, but the way that justice is carried out in schools itself.

Do you know that the rate of murder, etc, it cut greatly when there is a 3rd party intervening? That's why there are so many murders over drugs. There is no court in this land that is going to entertain a lawsuit over a bad drug deal, so other means are employed to resolve the situation.

I remember in high school that the kids who were being bullied were punished if they fought back. The teachers, who in most respects didn't like these kids anyway, weren't interested in fairness. Anger, humiliation, and loss of respect festered in these kids while the tormentors were allowed to go their merry way. And in fact, in many cases, nothing was done until the victim actually lashed back, then both students got sent to in-school suspension. Let's face it. Teachers are no better than the students as far as humanity goes. The jocks made fun of them. Nobody is going to be interested in making them stop. After all, they are incredibly important people.

We also know that tattling is frowned upon.

If a better system isn't developed, more $hit like this is going to happen.

It upsets me that this had to happen, but we can actually tackle the problem instead of copping out and saying a Sega game caused this. I know teachers are swamped with their own problems, but I think that we keep these outdated forms of punishment in place to make the parents feel better.

But look at the world around us. In every other aspect of our world, we are taught to take a stand for ourselves. We didn't try to reach a peaceful solution in Kosovo or Iraq. We just wanted to bomb the hell out of them....and now, with the Iraqis, we are slowly killing them off with sanctions. I'm sure Pres. Clinton was playing Doom and thinking how great it would be to do something like that to the Serbs. The government could do something other than warfare and genocide, but the public will roar in protest that we aren't bombing them back to the stone age. Do you catch what I'm saying? We aren't exactly a nation of enlightened peaceniks, and a kid would have to live in a bubble not to see what is happening in the world around them.

[let's bake a cake!]

Yes, the parents are responsible, but take a look at the administration at schools--they too foster hostility. Now because of this whole fiasco I have to wait 2 months to see the new episode of Buffy. What a joke.¿ As a teacher, I see youngsters in trouble like these¿ occasionally. We do all we can to help them, but the¿ responsibility goes back frequently to the parents who have no¿ time to love and nurture their children. Computers, TV, and¿ music are their baby sitters. Guidance counselors are covered up¿ with the requests that teachers send them. It is so frustrating.¿ You want to just shake some sense into these parents for giving¿ their children nothing but money, not love and attention they so¿ desperately need. I've had to try to explain all this to my¿ class of fifth graders who will be in middle school next year.¿ They are frightened for their safety. Even in my upscale¿ community, there is no guarantee that they will be safe.

[grrrl's slave]

I, too, am a teacher. Blame is only useful if it points the way to a solution. While I agree with much of what is being said in this thread, I think that we may be off base. I think the problem is larger than our schools (some of you have alluded to this). As a culture, we seem to have lost value for ourselves as individuals. We are valued for the tribes we belong to: Serbs, Goths, Republicans, Jocks. Solutions? I'm not sure.

[Dynamite Kid]

Forgive me for being so up front, but I need to vent somewhat on this issue.

God rest the souls of the people killed and injured, but thoughts must somehow be with the morons that perpetrated the incident. If they were still alive, my vote is to lock them up--Hannibal Lector style.

Yet, one must wonder what drives someone to do this. I look at the trench coat mafia, and there is one thing noticeable--they were unpopular kids. It's like that Pearl Jam song, "Jeremy". You can only push someone so far before they go insane.

I feel for the family of the footbal player/straight A student--he had alot to look forward to--but, I dare you to tell me to my face that he never picked on a nerd in his life. Popular kids pick on nerds and nerds pick on other nerds so they don't look like nerds. High school is no longer the wonderful place where Fred Savage can reminisce. It is an agressive lifestyle of competitiveness. If someone calls you names, you hit him, and if they hit you, hit harder. Since a nerd can't hit, what does he do? Now we know--he gets a gun. Sad situation. My nephew just entered High School, and I wonder how he's gonna do.

It's typical how the media blamed other issues before addressing the 'clique' issues first. They blame it on the music. They blame it on the video games. Why can't they understand that entertainment is not the root of the problem?

The news pointed the finger at goth culture, which has NOTHING to do with the trench coat mafia. (I ask you this. If they were African-Americans, then what would the news label this?) Trench coat mafia listened to Rammstein, Marilyn Manson, etc. THAT IS NOT GOTH, THAT IS HARD ROCK. Goth is Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, and [at some element] Siouxie and the Banshees. Goth has nothing to do with vampires, devil worship, or deliberately frightening people. I know a goth who is a born again christian. What's the difference between a normal guy and a goth? The goth wears black--not vampire costumes, but black clothing. I know goths, and the "goth" kids are a disgrace--kind of like most of the young bands cover Smiths songs today. If they are trying hard to put on an act, they most likely they are a Marilyn Mansonite, and not goth.

They blame it on video games, which portray guns and violence. I'll humor them any say "Let's take away the games". There will still be guns at the ends of the day. Now, if you take away the guns, will there be games like this? The Bill of Rights allows the right to bear arms IN THE TIME OF WAR. But, like all amendments, the details have been @#!!!ed with and ignored to hell.

What do I think should be done? Discipline should be heavily enforced like never before. Someone should get detention for calling a kid 'stupid'--it should be that ridiculous. One fight should get you expelled. There is no real sense of decency in High School anymore. Even beyond that, grown adults get into blood wars over stupid things: a neighbor crashes into his neighbor's fence/they go to court. Laws are setup because society has no sense of decency or maturity. The mature way would've been for them to help each other build a new fence. But, being as it is, imagine in 20 years what would happen if you crashed in to your neighbor's fence. I hope the car is bulletproof.

Truly, though, only so much can be done at school, and the parents must start the process at home. Don't own a gun. Don't let your kids watch NYPD Blue. Don't teach them agression. It's the only way we can survive as a species.

"If you tolerate this/then your children will be next"-Manic Street Preachers

[Grrrl's Slave]

There is nothing to forgive. Much of what you say makes excellent sense. Law takes over where common sense and decency fail. Our common sense and decency HAVE failed. As a society, we need to relearn these things. As a high school teacher, I see kids who have no sense of consequences because none are ever applied. They can say anything to one another or to the adults and nothing is done. They have been taught by implication that only lip service is paid to any other mode. They fail as many classes as they like, and still they are passed on. I could go on and on....but shall not.....


Names Named

[MozAnon]

¿ take away the guns, will there be games like this? The Bill of¿ Rights allows the right to bear arms IN THE TIME OF WAR. But,¿ like all amendments, the details have been @#!!! ed with and¿ ignored to hell.

"In the time of war"? Where exactly in the bill of rights do you read that part? Seems you are the one "@#!!!"ing with, and ignoring the details.

There are guns in my house. I've never, and will never kill anyone.

Because I don't want to.

[Kakarot]

¿ There are guns in my house. I've never, and will never kill¿ anyone.

so if soeone breaks into your house kills and rapes your loved one and you have a chance to stop them by shooting them you won't?

[MozAnon]

> so if soeone breaks into your house kills and rapes your loved¿ one and you have a chance to stop them by shooting them you¿ won't?

I think you know what i ment... guns aren't going to make me go out and kill someone. Defense, yes... i guess im sick of people blaming this colorado thing on the guns.

[Grrrl's Slave]

To say that one will NEVER do a thing is a bit absurd...we cannot predict the weather, much less ourselves...while controling weapons will not eliminate violence, it could lessen the severity and scope of its effects....


Names Named

[sam shuster]

¿ What do I think should be done? Discipline should be heavily¿ enforced like never before. Someone should get detention for¿ calling a kid 'stupid'--it should be that ridiculous. One fight¿ should get you expelled.

Now wait a minute, this is the kind of overreaction that I fear. Expell a kid for one fight? You know, I never started a fight in high school, but others started fights with me, so I would've been expelled by your policy even though I never wanted to fight. You don't eff up a kid's life from one or two mistakes. Everybody's gotta take a deep breath.

I don't think any one thing can be pointed to as the cause of this, but since this has the chance of becoming infectious and spreading after all the media coverage, it's important to at least try and figure it out. If I were to play armchair psychologist I'd say it's very telling that they chose Hitler's birthday to do this on. Hitler often becomes the surrogate father for kids who have no other father-figure in their lives, ya know? That's my theory about kids who get into Nazism, at least. So I'd guess there's something to look at there, first and foremost. Just one small piece of the puzzle, perhaps. And when a kid feels deprived, it inevitably leads to frustration which leads to hositility and anger. The hostility comes out in one form or another, either towards oneself in depression or towards the outside world and chosen targets. The question is how they slid so far down a slope to take such outrageously extreme action. I have no idea, but it's probably a combination of everything the media's been going on about. And I think it will be a cultural trend for at least the short term, as these things tend to be copied.

I don't know, I guess I just typed a lot of babble. I think I'll go rent HEATHERS.

[sam shuster]

¿ The news pointed the finger at goth culture, which has NOTHING¿ to do with the trench coat mafia. (I ask you this. If they were¿ African-Americans, then what would the news label this?) Trench¿ coat mafia listened to Rammstein, Marilyn Manson, etc. THAT IS¿ NOT GOTH, THAT IS HARD ROCK.

Don't you point fingers either, because I like Manson and Rammstein. And KMFDM.

[Kakarot]

If I were to play armchair¿ psychologist I'd say it's very telling that they chose Hitler's¿ birthday to do this on. Hitler often becomes the surrogate¿ father for kids who have no other father-figure in their lives,¿ ya know? That's my theory about kids who get into Nazism, at¿ least. So I'd guess there's something to look at there, first¿ and foremost.

ahh sam...it was also national pot smoking day....420

[EAlvin]

> If I were to play armchair¿ ahh sam...it was also national pot smoking day....420
Damn! I knew watching the news and all that I was missing something...
EA

[Howard]

This is a very good point, I think, and I have been waiting for more people to say this sort of thing.

[Brutalful]

I just read everybody's responces and I kind of look at it from a completely different viewpoint. Yes it was completely tragic and sad as hell. My younger sister will be starting high school next year and Im scared to death for her.....not because there is a known enemy to be scared of, but simply because its an unknown enemy.Its the twenty seconds of camera following a victim, and hiding just as a friend walks up, the monster that "Allmost" got its victim, and will return later. (Yes this makes no sence)

Here's my thing....When I was in high school I was terribly miserable everyday and FANTASIZED about wanting to bomb the school or just off a shiiteload of people. Its nothing I would ever GO THROUGH with, but at that time nobody had ever DONE that. It was an idea. A constant idea that I wished would happen. ...... Ive just been thinking to myself over the past few days "Well, other kids have proven that it can be done, so obviously it will continue to happen". Someone needed to prove it was possible....like the news reports have been saying there were like 10 of these in school shootings in the past two years...Well of COURSE! It is a reality at this point....If I was thinking of this 10 years ago in high school....it has to have been an idea by other people as well! It just wasnt something that could tangibly be done before. But now it is easy. And I think it will happen many more times in the future.

Seeing is beleiving, and all the screwed up kids in the world have now seen this....and they know what can be accomplished...MASS MEDIA COVERAGE OF WHAT THEY HAVE DONE WITH THEIR SAD LITTLE LIVES. Glory, fame etc.

Im not condoning what they did, but, I can completely identify with an amount of hatred that would compell someomne to do it.

Im not going to sit back and be shocked. It was bound to happen and it is bound to get worse.

[MozAnon]

> To say that one will NEVER do a thing is a bit absurd...we¿ cannot predict the weather, much less ourselves..

im sorry that you dont know yourself well enough to say what you will and will not do. i can very well predict i will never run in a school and shoot it up.

[Suzanne]

> im sorry that you dont know yourself well enough to say what you¿ will and will not do. i can very well predict i will never run¿ in a school and shoot it up.

I'll bet Sirhan Sirhan said the same thing about RFK before the CIA brainswashed him.

Have a nice day.