Recently, you said you were done with Morrissey and promised to leave the site so why are you still posting?
Loafing Oaf, Theo, Devil's Reject, Republican Party Reptile, Frantic Flintstone - TROLL.
Recently, you said you were done with Morrissey and promised to leave the site so why are you still posting?
Re: Loafing Oaf, Theo, Devil's Reject, Republican Party Reptile, Frantic Flintstone - TROLL.
> Recently, you said you were done with Morrissey and promised to leave the
> site so why are you still posting?
because he is an attention seeking whore, i have never read anything by him that had anything to do with morrissey's music.
fuck off and die already.
Re: Loafing Oaf, Theo, Devil's Reject, Republican Party Reptile, Frantic Flintstone - TROLL.
> Recently, you said you were done with Morrissey and promised to leave the
> site so why are you still posting?
No, it is bitches like some of my attackers who constantly say they are leaving for good. I have said no such thing.
I'm satisfied that my original topic from last week was deemed newsorthy by the Sunday Times and then the Main Page of Morrissey-Solo. There was an attempt to silence me for posting a legit topic on the up-to-the-minute latest Morrissey news from his latest round of interviews. It seems to me those people should've either posted on that topic or avoided the topic, instead of trying to bully someone off the board who has a view they dislike.
Re: Loafing Oaf, Theo, Devil's Reject, Republican Party Reptile, Frantic Flintstone - TROLL.
> No, it is bitches like some of my attackers who constantly say they are
> leaving for good. I have said no such thing.
> I'm satisfied that my original topic from last week was deemed newsorthy
> by the Sunday Times and then the Main Page of Morrissey-Solo. There was an
> attempt to silence me for posting a legit topic on the up-to-the-minute
> latest Morrissey news from his latest round of interviews. It seems to me
> those people should've either posted on that topic or avoided the topic,
> instead of trying to bully someone off the board who has a view they
> dislike.
Please leave this site and find a more suitable forum to express your nonsensical views.
LoafingOaf is not a troll. He is a man with a mind of his own.
Just because he has the balls to stick his neck out on the line, doesn't mean he is a troll. He is passionate about politics. There are others here that are as well. No one calls Irene a troll. Yet, she has very distinct opinions as well.
Theo is not a sheep following the heard. He has never attacked anyone personally. He only points out objections that he has with their views or political leanings. I have never seen him punch below the belt. He uses logic and facts to support his views.
If you don't agree with him that is fine. I don't always. But this does not brand him a troll. I guarantee that he knows more about Moz the man and his music than 90% of the fans here.
He has every right to post here. I am glad we have someone who is courageous enough to voice dissent.
He was the only person to point out the anti-semitism that was poisoning this board. Now he is pointing out the hypocricy of some of Peta's actions.
Just because he is critical of some of Moz's statements does not make him any less a fan.
Re: LoafingOaf is not a troll. He is a man with a mind of his own.
> Just because he has the balls to stick his neck out on the line, doesn't
> mean he is a troll. He is passionate about politics. There are others here
> that are as well. No one calls Irene a troll. Yet, she has very distinct
> opinions as well.
She has more than distinct opinions. That's a very diplomatic way to put it. Irene says herself that we should take it with a grain of salt, though. I would never call her self-important or smug.
> Theo is not a sheep following the heard. He has never attacked anyone
> personally. He only points out objections that he has with their views or
> political leanings. I have never seen him punch below the belt. He uses
> logic and facts to support his views.
Sorry, Jehne but he does attack people personally. He calls Morrissey a moron among other things. The first political exchange I ever had with him was in the chatroom when I had just seen Farenheit 911. He entered the room when we were having a discussion and started attacking everyone there and assuming that we get all of our information from Michael Moore's documentaries.
To get some perspective, the movie had been out over a year before I saw it. He assumed I got my information on political matters from moveon.org, a site I had never heard of.
He throws around words like moron and bitch, which is really hilarious, since he is doing most of the bitching here.
We all know what Morrissey said. We don't need him to interpret it for us. He tells someone "You seem smart enough to understand..." in a very condescending way. Meanwhile all of his best arguments are copied and pasted from somewhere else. I think his behavior is in some ways sheepish.
> If you don't agree with him that is fine. I don't always. But this does
> not brand him a troll. I guarantee that he knows more about Moz the man
> and his music than 90% of the fans here.
I can't remember the last time he posted anything about Morrissey's music.
> He has every right to post here. I am glad we have someone who is
> courageous enough to voice dissent.
As far as courage goes, what kind of courage does it take to post on a messageboard? He does have the right to post here but when he raises the same issues over and over I think his posts should be deleted.
> He was the only person to point out the anti-semitism that was poisoning
> this board. Now he is pointing out the hypocricy of some of Peta's
> actions.
> Just because he is critical of some of Moz's statements does not make him
> any less a fan.
He isn't just critical of Morrissey's statements. The thing is, he has every right to be critical of Morrissey personally, his statements, and anything else about Morrissey he wants to. But he has become a little bit obsessive about it and seems to feel that he is being "silenced" when people get tired of hearing about it. He has taken it upon himself to enlighten all of us. It's great that he feels strongly, and it isn't that he has no point. It's just that he makes the point and then won't let it go. It's like dealing with a religious fanatic that is trying to save your soul. You are not allowed to have another opinion, and if you do it is because your mind has been poisoned.
I realize he defends you and you defend him. That's great. But your represenation of the facts is not what is really happening here.
He has managed to change the current focus of the board. Morrissey has a new record coming out soon but look at all of the posts about Theo/frantic/oaf/etc and I'd have to conclude he is a success as a troll.
For chemist and others...
All Night Chemist, you seem moderate and reasonable, so I think you're a perfect person to address.
I have skirmished a few times with Loafing Oaf over the years and I have seen long threads started by him many times without answering. I'm a long-time visitor to Morrissey Solo and I've gotten used to a number of its personalities (including some of the people with multiple personalities). Among all this strange stew of personalities, Oaf stands out above the rest-- but lest I sound a note of grudging admiration, let me go on.
What irritates me about this person is that he or she is not actually a Morrissey fan-- at least not in the sense we mean. I have no doubt that he or she owns a bunch of CDs, probably knows a lot of the songs and lyrics, and has been to a show or two. But by no means is he or she as passionate as many of us are. Oaf has admitted this very fact a few times, usually offering tepid testimonials of his admiration for Morrissey's music. You have only to look up his messages and compare the tone of his politically-flavored rants to his musings on Morrissey to see the difference.
A fan site is for fans. Axiomatic, right? Doesn't mean that casual fans are excluded. We are not cultists. (Well, most of us are not.) We don't demand orthodoxy of viewpoint. We only ask that Morrissey fans comprise the Morrissey community, that's all. I'm not getting high and mighty, decreeing who shall visit this site and who shall not. Hardly. Morrissey fans come in all shapes and sizes. There is one poster in here, a moderator, who, politically, stands in diametric opposition to everything Morrissey stands for. I don't battle this guy for the simple reason that he is also, plainly, a big Morrissey fan. So, whatever: more power to him. On the other hand, there is no reason for a person who is mildly interested in Morrissey to come on here again and again to start arguments about any subject, political or otherwise. No reason whatsoever.
For example, on this most recent issue of animal rights, I have offered my opinion, for what it's worth, elsewhere on this site. I posted in response to some other fans, and my post was Morrissey-related. (It was even given an "Insightful" point, for which I naturally popped the champagne.) However, I will not debate this issue with Loafing Oaf because he or she is arguing eristically. Blasts of voluble but empty rhetoric, even ones that don't involve fatuous name-calling and may seem superficially reasonable, are nevertheless blasts of voluble but empty rhetoric. His favorite tactic is extrapolating equivalencies between political positions, a tactic used masterfully by George Orwell and now, sadly, also used borrowed from him quite effectively by the conservative movement in this country. Thus, in the animal rights flap, if you support Morrissey or perhaps these violent groups directly, you're also supporting fascism, Islamic theocracy, Al Qaeda, and other nasty causes. It's the old saw: in a time of war, you're either with us or against us.
It polarizes instantly. It has no intellectual merit, at least not on a public discussion board. Even when he has some good, logical points to make, and I've seen him make a few, it still has no merit because he is not arguing in good faith. He is arguing to argue. But let's say that his posts were legitimate examples of free speech-- well, here I would counter that this is a Morrissey fan site, and if he is not a passionate fan of Morrissey's, then his coming here to start these nasty threads is the very essence of Internet trolling. Trolling means you go looking for fights. How you start those fights, or whether you use complete sentences or sound off like an eSC@p3d.*.LUNa-t-i(, is immaterial. If a Morrissey fan posts his objection to Morrissey's statement about ARM, fine. No problem. If someone who casually listens to Morrissey, but knows he can get attention and gratify his desire to debate people online, comes over to this site and picks a fight, that's different. Don't you think?
> Theo is not a sheep following the heard.
You need to read up some more on either conservative web sites or liberal watchdog sites. The guy is reading straight from a GOP script, right down to his insistence that he thinks for himself. I mean, once you develop an ear for his kind of cant, it's not even close. Really. But I offer this as an aside; it is not my principle objection.
> He was the only person to point out the anti-semitism that was poisoning
> this board. Now he is pointing out the hypocricy of some of Peta's
> actions.
He is attacking Morrissey directly and, by extension, the rest of the man's fanbase. Support for terrorists of any stripe is what he's out to expose. He loves the fact that "liberal" Morrissey fans are now either openly in favor of, or at any rate not dismissing and therefore tacitly accepting, tactics beloved of fascist thugs. Again, this may or may not have sticking power, but the way he's arguing it suggests not that he's a guardian of truth but rather that he's out to stir up as much shit as possible for his own gratification. You don't go to a John Lennon site and attack Lennon's communist sympathies. You don't go to a Rage Against The Machine site and attack the legacy of Che Guevara. You don't go to a Toby Keith site and attack the Bible. You don't go to a Cure site and make fun of boys who wear mascara. And you sure as hell don't go to a Morrissey site and "point out the hypocrisy of Peta" and other animal rights groups.
That is, you don't visit those sites and do those things IF YOU ARE NOT A FAN. I hope you see that my argument pivots on this distinction. It's entirely different if you are a fan. If you're a fan it's fine to broach those subjects, because you're doing it in good faith. Oaf has never done that. He is not a passionate fan of Morrissey's. He's here to start fires.
On the subject of his supposed integrity, now that he has firmly established, in his own mind, that Morrissey supports terrorism, then his presence on this board means one of two things. One, he understands that an artist he (allgedly) likes supports terrorism, but he can somehow set that aside and still listen to his music and interact with the singer's fanbase as part of its fan community. Meaning: he's a hypocrite. Or two, he understands that Morrissey supports terrorism and yet he comes to this site to antagonize the fans who come here to talk about Morrissey's music. Meaning: he's a troll.
That's the trouble with his recent bout of moral calculus. It paints him into a corner. He has no choice but to decide. If he stays, he's either a rank hypocrite or a full-blown troll. Given his relentless desire for ideological purity, I don't see much of a middle ground, do you?
I'm going to reiterate something because I don't want it to get lost here. My objection to his political views is that the very reason he should be here-- loving Morrissey's records-- underpins his right to post politics without being blasted as a troll. I've seen this guy operate a lot, and I am of the opinion that he is not a fan at all. I have asked him directly, and he has answered so weakly there's no other conclusion to draw, but of course this is subjective and I can't actually prove by argument that he's not a real fan.
I can, however, turn to this, which I think is compelling and ought to convince most of you who are actually fans of Morrissey's: real fans like myself have already confronted the issue of violence with respect to Morrissey's music, oh, about twenty fucking years ago. It's all right there in the music, and you don't have to dig very far in the interview archives-- and thanks to some diligent fans, there are countless transcribed interviews available on the web, stories ranging from '83 to '06-- to see that Morrissey has always given public support to radical left-wing causes. Granted, this namechecking of explicitly violent groups is new; I don't recall him ever directly backing a group like ARM. I think once he stopped at "Boycott Boots!" But Animal Liberation Front, calling for the death of the queen and Maggie Thatcher, and lots of references to killing and violence: all there, always there. Mind you, I think Morrissey's support of these causes is more complex than it seems at first blush, and I would argue that in many key instances Morrissey is actually right-wing, but in any case, if you wanted to object to Morrissey's political leanings there was ample cause to do so long before a True To You Q & A that merely repeated what many of us have known since, oh, forever. Something real fans would know.
> Just because he is critical of some of Moz's statements does not make him
> any less a fan.
No, the fact that he is not really a fan makes him less of a fan. I've posted this not to flame Oaf but for anyone out there who still believes this person has any integrity. My hope is that his support will dry up and he'll leave. Give me a thousand Morrissey fans posting obscene, liberal-baiting, lamb-throat-slitting, right-wing diatribes so long as they are fans; let these trolls fuck off elsewhere. It's a world wide web, after all. Please, kind people. Make the dream real.
true
> She has more than distinct opinions. That's a very diplomatic way to put
> it. Irene says herself that we should take it with a grain of salt,
> though. I would never call her self-important or smug.
> Sorry, Jehne but he does attack people personally. He calls Morrissey a
> moron among other things. The first political exchange I ever had with him
> was in the chatroom when I had just seen Farenheit 911. He entered the
> room when we were having a discussion and started attacking everyone there
> and assuming that we get all of our information from Michael Moore's
> documentaries.
> To get some perspective, the movie had been out over a year before I saw
> it. He assumed I got my information on political matters from moveon.org,
> a site I had never heard of.
> He throws around words like moron and bitch, which is really hilarious,
> since he is doing most of the bitching here.
> We all know what Morrissey said. We don't need him to interpret it for us.
> He tells someone "You seem smart enough to understand..." in a
> very condescending way. Meanwhile all of his best arguments are copied and
> pasted from somewhere else. I think his behavior is in some ways sheepish.
> I can't remember the last time he posted anything about Morrissey's music.
> As far as courage goes, what kind of courage does it take to post on a
> messageboard? He does have the right to post here but when he raises the
> same issues over and over I think his posts should be deleted.
> He isn't just critical of Morrissey's statements. The thing is, he has
> every right to be critical of Morrissey personally, his statements, and
> anything else about Morrissey he wants to. But he has become a little bit
> obsessive about it and seems to feel that he is being "silenced"
> when people get tired of hearing about it. He has taken it upon himself to
> enlighten all of us. It's great that he feels strongly, and it isn't that
> he has no point. It's just that he makes the point and then won't let it
> go. It's like dealing with a religious fanatic that is trying to save your
> soul. You are not allowed to have another opinion, and if you do it is
> because your mind has been poisoned.
> I realize he defends you and you defend him. That's great. But your
> represenation of the facts is not what is really happening here.
> He has managed to change the current focus of the board. Morrissey has a
> new record coming out soon but look at all of the posts about
> Theo/frantic/oaf/etc and I'd have to conclude he is a success as a troll.
it kills me to admit it but i agree with pretty much everything you've just said.
Re: For chemist and others...
> All Night Chemist, you seem moderate and reasonable, so I think you're a
> perfect person to address.
> I have skirmished a few times with Loafing Oaf over the years and I have
> seen long threads started by him many times without answering. I'm a
> long-time visitor to Morrissey Solo and I've gotten used to a number of
> its personalities (including some of the people with multiple
> personalities). Among all this strange stew of personalities, Oaf stands
> out above the rest-- but lest I sound a note of grudging admiration, let
> me go on.
> What irritates me about this person is that he or she is not actually a
> Morrissey fan-- at least not in the sense we mean. I have no doubt that he
> or she owns a bunch of CDs, probably knows a lot of the songs and lyrics,
> and has been to a show or two. But by no means is he or she as passionate
> as many of us are. Oaf has admitted this very fact a few times, usually
> offering tepid testimonials of his admiration for Morrissey's music. You
> have only to look up his messages and compare the tone of his
> politically-flavored rants to his musings on Morrissey to see the
> difference.
> A fan site is for fans. Axiomatic, right? Doesn't mean that casual fans
> are excluded. We are not cultists. (Well, most of us are not.) We don't
> demand orthodoxy of viewpoint. We only ask that Morrissey fans comprise
> the Morrissey community, that's all. I'm not getting high and mighty,
> decreeing who shall visit this site and who shall not. Hardly. Morrissey
> fans come in all shapes and sizes. There is one poster in here, a
> moderator, who, politically, stands in diametric opposition to everything
> Morrissey stands for. I don't battle this guy for the simple reason that
> he is also, plainly, a big Morrissey fan. So, whatever: more power to him.
> On the other hand, there is no reason for a person who is mildly
> interested in Morrissey to come on here again and again to start arguments
> about any subject, political or otherwise. No reason whatsoever.
> For example, on this most recent issue of animal rights, I have offered my
> opinion, for what it's worth, elsewhere on this site. I posted in response
> to some other fans, and my post was Morrissey-related. (It was even given
> an "Insightful" point, for which I naturally popped the
> champagne.) However, I will not debate this issue with Loafing Oaf because
> he or she is arguing eristically. Blasts of voluble but empty rhetoric,
> even ones that don't involve fatuous name-calling and may seem
> superficially reasonable, are nevertheless blasts of voluble but empty
> rhetoric. His favorite tactic is extrapolating equivalencies between
> political positions, a tactic used masterfully by George Orwell and now,
> sadly, also used borrowed from him quite effectively by the conservative
> movement in this country. Thus, in the animal rights flap, if you support
> Morrissey or perhaps these violent groups directly, you're also supporting
> fascism, Islamic theocracy, Al Qaeda, and other nasty causes. It's the old
> saw: in a time of war, you're either with us or against us.
> It polarizes instantly. It has no intellectual merit, at least not on a
> public discussion board. Even when he has some good, logical points to
> make, and I've seen him make a few, it still has no merit because he is
> not arguing in good faith. He is arguing to argue. But let's say that his
> posts were legitimate examples of free speech-- well, here I would counter
> that this is a Morrissey fan site, and if he is not a passionate fan of
> Morrissey's, then his coming here to start these nasty threads is the very
> essence of Internet trolling. Trolling means you go looking for fights.
> How you start those fights, or whether you use complete sentences or sound
> off like an eSC@p3d.*.LUNa-t-i(, is immaterial. If a Morrissey fan posts
> his objection to Morrissey's statement about ARM, fine. No problem. If
> someone who casually listens to Morrissey, but knows he can get attention
> and gratify his desire to debate people online, comes over to this site
> and picks a fight, that's different. Don't you think?
> You need to read up some more on either conservative web sites or liberal
> watchdog sites. The guy is reading straight from a GOP script, right down
> to his insistence that he thinks for himself. I mean, once you develop an
> ear for his kind of cant, it's not even close. Really. But I offer this as
> an aside; it is not my principle objection.
> He is attacking Morrissey directly and, by extension, the rest of the
> man's fanbase. Support for terrorists of any stripe is what he's out to
> expose. He loves the fact that "liberal" Morrissey fans are now
> either openly in favor of, or at any rate not dismissing and therefore
> tacitly accepting, tactics beloved of fascist thugs. Again, this may or
> may not have sticking power, but the way he's arguing it suggests not that
> he's a guardian of truth but rather that he's out to stir up as much shit
> as possible for his own gratification. You don't go to a John Lennon site
> and attack Lennon's communist sympathies. You don't go to a Rage Against
> The Machine site and attack the legacy of Che Guevara. You don't go to a
> Toby Keith site and attack the Bible. You don't go to a Cure site and make
> fun of boys who wear mascara. And you sure as hell don't go to a Morrissey
> site and "point out the hypocrisy of Peta" and other animal
> rights groups.
> That is, you don't visit those sites and do those things IF YOU ARE NOT A
> FAN. I hope you see that my argument pivots on this distinction. It's
> entirely different if you are a fan. If you're a fan it's fine to broach
> those subjects, because you're doing it in good faith. Oaf has never done
> that. He is not a passionate fan of Morrissey's. He's here to start fires.
> On the subject of his supposed integrity, now that he has firmly
> established, in his own mind, that Morrissey supports terrorism, then his
> presence on this board means one of two things. One, he understands that
> an artist he (allgedly) likes supports terrorism, but he can somehow set
> that aside and still listen to his music and interact with the singer's
> fanbase as part of its fan community. Meaning: he's a hypocrite. Or two,
> he understands that Morrissey supports terrorism and yet he comes to this
> site to antagonize the fans who come here to talk about Morrissey's music.
> Meaning: he's a troll.
> That's the trouble with his recent bout of moral calculus. It paints him
> into a corner. He has no choice but to decide. If he stays, he's either a
> rank hypocrite or a full-blown troll. Given his relentless desire for
> ideological purity, I don't see much of a middle ground, do you?
> I'm going to reiterate something because I don't want it to get lost here.
> My objection to his political views is that the very reason he should be
> here-- loving Morrissey's records-- underpins his right to post politics
> without being blasted as a troll. I've seen this guy operate a lot, and I
> am of the opinion that he is not a fan at all. I have asked him directly,
> and he has answered so weakly there's no other conclusion to draw, but of
> course this is subjective and I can't actually prove by argument that he's
> not a real fan.
> I can, however, turn to this, which I think is compelling and ought to
> convince most of you who are actually fans of Morrissey's: real fans like
> myself have already confronted the issue of violence with respect to
> Morrissey's music, oh, about twenty fucking years ago. It's all right
> there in the music, and you don't have to dig very far in the interview
> archives-- and thanks to some diligent fans, there are countless
> transcribed interviews available on the web, stories ranging from '83 to
> '06-- to see that Morrissey has always given public support to radical
> left-wing causes. Granted, this namechecking of explicitly violent groups
> is new; I don't recall him ever directly backing a group like ARM. I think
> once he stopped at "Boycott Boots!" But Animal Liberation Front,
> calling for the death of the queen and Maggie Thatcher, and lots of
> references to killing and violence: all there, always there. Mind you, I
> think Morrissey's support of these causes is more complex than it seems at
> first blush, and I would argue that in many key instances Morrissey is
> actually right-wing, but in any case, if you wanted to object to
> Morrissey's political leanings there was ample cause to do so long before
> a True To You Q & A that merely repeated what many of us have known
> since, oh, forever. Something real fans would know.
> No, the fact that he is not really a fan makes him less of a fan. I've
> posted this not to flame Oaf but for anyone out there who still believes
> this person has any integrity. My hope is that his support will dry up and
> he'll leave. Give me a thousand Morrissey fans posting obscene,
> liberal-baiting, lamb-throat-slitting, right-wing diatribes so long as
> they are fans; let these trolls fuck off elsewhere. It's a world wide web,
> after all. Please, kind people. Make the dream real.
Thank you for taking the time to address your objections. This was very well written. I agree that on the surface it would seen odd that a fan of Moz could/would openly criticize his idol's statements/beliefs/actions. I am not a very political person. You are correct that I am a moderate of sorts--somewhat of a fence sitter. So, I am not a reader of political websites. What I am though is a person who cares about individuals and their characters. LoafingOaf has been nothing but a gentleman to me. He defended me against vicious trolls who were personally attacking me and the people I care about. He proved to me that he does have a strong moral compass. True, his compass may point in the opposite direction of mine, yours, Moz's--at times . But, I do not doubt his motives. LO may stir up things a bit. But, I don't think it is to personally hurt anyone. I believe he is just very passionate about his beliefs. Sure he could restrain himself--limit his posts to Morrissey only topics. But how boring would this be--if all we talked about was Moz 24/7--here and in our day to day interactions with others. I have been slammed for talking about Pearl Jam, Cats, etc. LO is a political man--he talks politics. Why must he keep his opinions to himself simply because they are not favorable to the majority of Moz fans? Like him, I feel that I am very much like the majority of fans here--in that I am a passionate person. I have passion for 'something'--be it Moz, his music, veganism, politics, or a combination thereof... don't we all share this?
Maybe you and I are more like Moz the man. Perhaps LO and Moz have different values and political views. It doesn't make LO a non-fan--just a different kind of fan perhaps.
Re: LoafingOaf is not a troll. He is a man with a mind of his own.
> She has more than distinct opinions. That's a very diplomatic way to put
> it. Irene says herself that we should take it with a grain of salt,
> though. I would never call her self-important or smug.
> Sorry, Jehne but he does attack people personally. He calls Morrissey a
> moron among other things. The first political exchange I ever had with him
> was in the chatroom when I had just seen Farenheit 911. He entered the
> room when we were having a discussion and started attacking everyone there
> and assuming that we get all of our information from Michael Moore's
> documentaries.
> To get some perspective, the movie had been out over a year before I saw
> it. He assumed I got my information on political matters from moveon.org,
> a site I had never heard of.
> He throws around words like moron and bitch, which is really hilarious,
> since he is doing most of the bitching here.
> We all know what Morrissey said. We don't need him to interpret it for us.
> He tells someone "You seem smart enough to understand..." in a
> very condescending way. Meanwhile all of his best arguments are copied and
> pasted from somewhere else. I think his behavior is in some ways sheepish.
> I can't remember the last time he posted anything about Morrissey's music.
> As far as courage goes, what kind of courage does it take to post on a
> messageboard? He does have the right to post here but when he raises the
> same issues over and over I think his posts should be deleted.
> He isn't just critical of Morrissey's statements. The thing is, he has
> every right to be critical of Morrissey personally, his statements, and
> anything else about Morrissey he wants to. But he has become a little bit
> obsessive about it and seems to feel that he is being "silenced"
> when people get tired of hearing about it. He has taken it upon himself to
> enlighten all of us. It's great that he feels strongly, and it isn't that
> he has no point. It's just that he makes the point and then won't let it
> go. It's like dealing with a religious fanatic that is trying to save your
> soul. You are not allowed to have another opinion, and if you do it is
> because your mind has been poisoned.
> I realize he defends you and you defend him. That's great. But your
> represenation of the facts is not what is really happening here.
> He has managed to change the current focus of the board. Morrissey has a
> new record coming out soon but look at all of the posts about
> Theo/frantic/oaf/etc and I'd have to conclude he is a success as a troll.
You guys have an ongoing thing that I am not privy to. I have not been in on all the chat discussions that you speak of. Seems like no matter what, you two butt heads. I just don't think Theo is a troll. Not by my definition anyhow.
Re: For chemist and others...
Let me try and be a little shorter.
With respect to Morrissey's politics, Oaf is like a homophobe that lurks on an Elton John message board and periodically chides Elton for his flamboyant fashion sense and bitchy comments. "Don't worry," he reassures everyone. "I'm a fan, I'm just not one of the herd". Comes a day, years into his patronage of the site, when he posts a message saying, "I am shocked to learn that Elton John is marrying a man. SHOCKED. Are you all aware of that EJ is...GAY?" By this I don't mean that he is naive or ignorant. I mean that he is utterly disingenuous: a troll. I don't think I'm overstating the case when I draw a direct parallel between Morrissey's contradictory, inflammatory, and often irresponsible political views and Elton John's sexuality. I mean, please-- talk about being "out". Come on now.
Look at it another way. I believe the world is round, or pear-shaped, if you prefer. I believe it to be an irrefutable fact. Most people do, I'm told. But if I visit the Flat Earth Society Discussion Forum to argue the point, then no matter how carefully, soberly, and logically I argue my case, there is no getting around the fact that I have come to that board to pick a fight. That's what a troll does. How much worse that he should come to a music site to argue politics! This isn't Michael Moore's page. This isn't MoveOn. Who is he kidding?
Quite simply he is not a serious thinker, for all his posing as such. His baiting is so transparent I am actually mad at myself for posting a few times in the last few days, because I am only feeding the flames. Anyway, about his personal loyalty I can't speak. Maybe he's been kind to you. If so I understand why you'd stick up for him. That doesn't excuse the fact that his agenda is not to debate issues rationally but rather to push as many buttons as possible. Like I said, my complaint is not about his politics-- though I do disagree with him-- but with his lack of real affection for Morrissey's music. He is not "a different kind of fan" because of his politics. He is simply not a fan. Every message board has an agitator like this, and the solution is always the same: don't feed the troll.
Now I'll follow my own advice and shut up.
Re: LoafingOaf is not a troll. He is a man with a mind of his own.
> You guys have an ongoing thing that I am not privy to. I have not been in
> on all the chat discussions that you speak of. Seems like no matter what,
> you two butt heads. I just don't think Theo is a troll. Not by my
> definition anyhow.
I think Worm said it better than I did.
It really has nothing to do with anything between Oaf and I. I did make a mistake last year of accusing Oaf of being another poster and I have apologized for it. That's as far as it goes on a personal level.
Re: For chemist and others...
> Let me try and be a little shorter.
> With respect to Morrissey's politics, Oaf is like a homophobe that lurks
> on an Elton John message board and periodically chides Elton for his
> flamboyant fashion sense and bitchy comments. "Don't worry," he
> reassures everyone. "I'm a fan, I'm just not one of the herd".
> Comes a day, years into his patronage of the site, when he posts a message
> saying, "I am shocked to learn that Elton John is marrying a man.
> SHOCKED. Are you all aware of that EJ is...GAY?" By this I don't mean
> that he is naive or ignorant. I mean that he is utterly disingenuous: a
> troll. I don't think I'm overstating the case when I draw a direct
> parallel between Morrissey's contradictory, inflammatory, and often
> irresponsible political views and Elton John's sexuality. I mean, please--
> talk about being "out". Come on now.
> Look at it another way. I believe the world is round, or pear-shaped, if
> you prefer. I believe it to be an irrefutable fact. Most people do, I'm
> told. But if I visit the Flat Earth Society Discussion Forum to argue the
> point, then no matter how carefully, soberly, and logically I argue my
> case, there is no getting around the fact that I have come to that board
> to pick a fight. That's what a troll does. How much worse that he should
> come to a music site to argue politics! This isn't Michael Moore's page.
> This isn't MoveOn. Who is he kidding?
> Quite simply he is not a serious thinker, for all his posing as such. His
> baiting is so transparent I am actually mad at myself for posting a few
> times in the last few days, because I am only feeding the flames. Anyway,
> about his personal loyalty I can't speak. Maybe he's been kind to you. If
> so I understand why you'd stick up for him. That doesn't excuse the fact
> that his agenda is not to debate issues rationally but rather to push as
> many buttons as possible. Like I said, my complaint is not about his
> politics-- though I do disagree with him-- but with his lack of real
> affection for Morrissey's music. He is not "a different kind of
> fan" because of his politics. He is simply not a fan. Every message
> board has an agitator like this, and the solution is always the same:
> don't feed the troll.
> Now I'll follow my own advice and shut up.
I understand that this is not a political forum. It is a fan site for Morrissey.
I think that Morrissey fans are a special breed. We are more passionate, educated, articulate, and opinionated than your average persons. We have a commonality that unites us. You argue that LoafingOaf surely is not a Moz fan. But, I have seen proof that suggests otherwise. He has all Moz's releases and knows many music related facts. And his dedication to this site and David Tseng is unquestionable. He has been here from the beginning. In the last few weeks, Moz has made some controversial statements. Has he done this in the past? Sure. And he had his detractors then just like he does now. Admittedly, Moz has tested my faith in him a few times as well. Mostly when it comes to his cancellations and such. But, how do we measure fandom? Is complete devotion to all of Moz's beliefs neccessary? I am not celebate. What if Moz expected his fans to be such? Does he expect us to all be vegetarian? What about the death penalty? Abortion? What if we had differening opinions? Would this make me less of a fan? Maybe on some level it would--at least less of a fan of the man's political views. Some people have an issue with musicians mixing music and politics. I don't. But, I just hope that they understand that they are two different things. Perhaps LO has always known this to be true.
I do feel loyal to LO. I feel loyal to David Tseng as well. Why? Because these are real people who have taken the time to interact with me. I am a person to them as well. Kindness is repayed with kindness.
I feel like I have just restated what I had already written earlier. Maybe we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Re: LoafingOaf is not a troll. He is a man with a mind of his own.
> I think Worm said it better than I did.
> It really has nothing to do with anything between Oaf and I. I did make a
> mistake last year of accusing Oaf of being another poster and I have
> apologized for it. That's as far as it goes on a personal level.
Fair enough.
Re: For chemist and others...
> Admittedly, Moz has tested my faith in him a
> few times as well. Mostly when it comes to his cancellations and such.
You became a fan when? Quarry. You have attended how many Moz shows? None. You were effected by cancellations? Really, you had tickets to that gig in Spain too? Bummer.
Worm, it's the blinder speaking for the blind on this debate. Don't waste your time with this troop.
People who have little to no interest in Morrissey here at Morrissey-Solo in order.
1) http://www.morrissey-solo.com/~realitybites/journal/
2) Lets Go Devils
3) Oaf
Re: LoafingOaf is not a troll. He is a man with a mind of his own.
> She has more than distinct opinions. That's a very diplomatic way to put
> it. Irene says herself that we should take it with a grain of salt,
> though. I would never call her self-important or smug.
Pie, can I employ you as my next Psychiatrist?
The previous 46 were useless beyond belief.
I do believe he's got it, by jolly he's got it!
A slight flaw however in the summary, a grain of sugar is the best accompaniment to anything I've ever said.
What won the contract -
"I would never call her self-important or smug"
How right you are.
That is probably where the problem lay from the beginning.
Maybe it pays to be more self-important, as the best psychos say, you have to love yourself first. I've never got beyond round one.
And who might you be Mr. Proxy. Let me guess... freeyourself?
Re: For chemist and others...
Love this:
"Admittedly, Moz has tested my faith in him a few times as well. Mostly when it comes to his cancellations and such."
All those concerts he cancelled--in OHIO???
She has never seen him live.
She has never attempted to see him live.
Her second-to-last journal entry hints that she's only just heard Kill Uncle for the first time.
She comes here to suck up to some people--er, I mean, to "bond" with them--and she spends the rest of her time reporting to David T. which ones WON'T "bond" with her.
She's here to make trouble, end of.
No, it's that smelly paki BG.
freeyourself likes devil's
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