Will someone ask Moz if he supported the assasination of Pim Fortuyn by an animal-liberation freak??

[Theo van Gogh Martyrs Brigade]

Next time they do those True To You Q&A's. For some reason my questions can't get through.

Yes, no one should forget that while it was a savage Islamic-jihad barbarian who assasinated Theo van Gogh for making a film condemning the treatment of women under Islam, it was an ANIMAL-LIBERATION FASCIST who assasinated Pim Fortuyn! Birds of a feather, I say.

THE BBC:

Fortuyn murder suspect in court

Thousands marched to condemn the murder

A Dutch environmental campaigner accused of murdering populist anti-immigration politician Pim Fortuyn has appeared in court and will be held for at least another 10 days.

The suspect, a 32-year-old Dutchman identified as Volkert van der Graaf, appeared at a closed hearing before an Amsterdam judge. He refused to make a statement.

He was allegedly caught with a pistol moments after the fatal shooting of Fortuyn, which shocked the Netherlands.

The murder, outside a radio station in the central Dutch city of Hilversum on Monday, came just over a week before Fortuyn was due to contest the country's general election.

The public prosecutor said ammunition found at the suspect's house matched the calibre of the bullets which killed Fortuyn.

Police also removed environmental literature from the man's home in the town of Harderwijk, 50 kilometres east of Amsterdam.

Custody

The suspect, an activist with the group Environmental Offensive, will appear before three trial judges in 10 days' time. They will then decide if he can be held for another 30 days.

Under Dutch law a suspect can be detained for 100 days before being formally charged and brought to trial.

The suspect is also reported to be an animal rights activist. He is believed to have acted alone and did not have a gun licence.

Murder is punishable by up to 20 years in prison in the Netherlands.

Strong poll showing

The court appearance came as the Netherlands was still adjusting to the shock of the murder.

Thousands rallied in the city of Rotterdam, Fortuyn's home and power base, on Tuesday evening to protest about the killing.

Opinion polls had suggested that Fortuyn, 54, would win 15% to 20% of the vote in the 15 May election, with his policy of restricting immigration to the Netherlands gaining him substantial support.

His name will still appear top of his party's list of 52 candidates.

Sympathy vote

The BBC's Paul Anderson in Rotterdam says it seems likely that the party - which is called Fortuyn's List - will gain from the sympathy vote.

Wim Kok: "A dark shadow has fallen over the Netherlands"

He says that if the opinion polls are borne out, the election could leave the party holding the balance of power in the Dutch political system.

The murder has caused consternation across Europe, with leaders expressing horror that such violence could erupt on the Dutch political scene.

The BBC's Tim Franks in Rotterdam says that many people who marched against the killing on Tuesaday night did so to express their sorrow that this should happen in the easy-going Netherlands, rather than to show political support for Fortuyn.

Multiple injuries

Fortuyn came to prominence in March when his party made a strong showing in local elections in Rotterdam.

He provoked public indignation by calling for the Netherlands' borders to be closed to immigrants, and by describing Islam as a "backward" religion.

He was shot six times, suffering multiple wounds in the head, chest and neck, and died shortly afterwards.

Fortuyn's funeral will be held on Friday, and his remains buried at a favourite spot in northern Italy where he had a holiday home.

[Joe Dolan]

[Theo van Gogh Martyrs Brigade]

For some reason when someone simply took Morrissey's statements in support of terrorist violence and made it a thread they attempted to silence me. I will not be silenced. It is clearly legit news. The Sunday Times and the main page of this site deemed it legit news.

[anonymous]

Morrissey, like you, is not responsible for all the actions of all the people he shares an opinion with.

[oaf hater]

> Next time they do those True To You Q&A's. For some reason my questions
> can't get through.

> Yes, no one should forget that while it was a savage Islamic-jihad
> barbarian who assasinated Theo van Gogh for making a film condemning the
> treatment of women under Islam, it was an ANIMAL-LIBERATION FASCIST who
> assasinated Pim Fortuyn! Birds of a feather, I say.

> THE BBC:

> Fortuyn murder suspect in court

> Thousands marched to condemn the murder

> A Dutch environmental campaigner accused of murdering populist
> anti-immigration politician Pim Fortuyn has appeared in court and will be
> held for at least another 10 days.

> The suspect, a 32-year-old Dutchman identified as Volkert van der Graaf,
> appeared at a closed hearing before an Amsterdam judge. He refused to make
> a statement.

> He was allegedly caught with a pistol moments after the fatal shooting of
> Fortuyn, which shocked the Netherlands.

> The murder, outside a radio station in the central Dutch city of Hilversum
> on Monday, came just over a week before Fortuyn was due to contest the
> country's general election.

> The public prosecutor said ammunition found at the suspect's house matched
> the calibre of the bullets which killed Fortuyn.

> Police also removed environmental literature from the man's home in the
> town of Harderwijk, 50 kilometres east of Amsterdam.

> Custody

> The suspect, an activist with the group Environmental Offensive, will
> appear before three trial judges in 10 days' time. They will then decide
> if he can be held for another 30 days.

> Under Dutch law a suspect can be detained for 100 days before being
> formally charged and brought to trial.

> The suspect is also reported to be an animal rights activist. He is
> believed to have acted alone and did not have a gun licence.

> Murder is punishable by up to 20 years in prison in the Netherlands.

> Strong poll showing

> The court appearance came as the Netherlands was still adjusting to the
> shock of the murder.

> Thousands rallied in the city of Rotterdam, Fortuyn's home and power base,
> on Tuesday evening to protest about the killing.

> Opinion polls had suggested that Fortuyn, 54, would win 15% to 20% of the
> vote in the 15 May election, with his policy of restricting immigration to
> the Netherlands gaining him substantial support.

> His name will still appear top of his party's list of 52 candidates.

> Sympathy vote

> The BBC's Paul Anderson in Rotterdam says it seems likely that the party -
> which is called Fortuyn's List - will gain from the sympathy vote.

> Wim Kok: "A dark shadow has fallen over the Netherlands"

> He says that if the opinion polls are borne out, the election could leave
> the party holding the balance of power in the Dutch political system.

> The murder has caused consternation across Europe, with leaders expressing
> horror that such violence could erupt on the Dutch political scene.

> The BBC's Tim Franks in Rotterdam says that many people who marched
> against the killing on Tuesaday night did so to express their sorrow that
> this should happen in the easy-going Netherlands, rather than to show
> political support for Fortuyn.

> Multiple injuries

> Fortuyn came to prominence in March when his party made a strong showing
> in local elections in Rotterdam.

> He provoked public indignation by calling for the Netherlands' borders to
> be closed to immigrants, and by describing Islam as a "backward"
> religion.

> He was shot six times, suffering multiple wounds in the head, chest and
> neck, and died shortly afterwards.

> Fortuyn's funeral will be held on Friday, and his remains buried at a
> favourite spot in northern Italy where he had a holiday home.

stop flooding the site with your boring cut and paste shite.
do you have any information relating to the tour ? if not then don't fucking bother.

[Theo van Gogh Martyrs Brigade]

> Morrissey, like you, is not responsible for all the actions of all the
> people he shares an opinion with.

A fan asked Morrissey what he can do to help animals. Morrissey quite clearly told this fan that he should amulate the ARM, a terrorist and violent group. I think I demonstrated last week that ARM actions are, by definition, those actions that recklessly disregard the safety of people, or intentionally harm people. The post I put up here last week quoted directly from an ALF press spokesperson who defined ARM actions as those actiuons that can be classified as terrorist violence, more violently extreme than actions taken under the ALF label.

So we know Morrissey supports animal-liberation terrorist violence. The question I'm asking is whether he supports the murder of Pim Fortuyn amongst the violence, death threats, assasination threats, mail bombs, arson, razor-blade letters, etc that he unambiguously does now support.

[oaf hater]

[Theo van Gogh Martyrs Brigade]

> A fan asked Morrissey what he can do to help animals. Morrissey quite
> clearly told this fan that he should amulate the ARM,

emulate, that is.

Yes, he told this fan wondering what he can do for animals to not just support animal rights, but to go beyond even the ALF and to engage in terrorist violence, such as mail bombs and arson with a reckless diregard for human life, or the intentional harming of human life.

[oaf hater]

[Theo van Gogh Martyrs Brigade]

And maybe even the murder of Theo van Gogh as well, for that matter.

Birds of a feather flock together you know.

The FBI has stated that environmental and animal rights terrorist groups are those most likely to give help to Muslim terrorist groups. I don't know what to make of that. Sometimes the FBI is a little out of control. But then again, terrorists are terrorists, birds of a feather, and all that. At the very least, it's no surprise when those who support animal rights terrorism also condemn the war on Muslim terrorism.

[oaf hater]

> And maybe even the murder of Theo van Gogh as well, for that matter.

> Birds of a feather flock together you know.

> The FBI has stated that environmental and animal rights terrorist groups
> are those most likely to give help to Muslim terrorist groups. I don't
> know what to make of that. Sometimes the FBI is a little out of control.
> But then again, terrorists are terrorists, birds of a feather, and all
> that. At the very least, it's no surprise when those who support animal
> rights terrorism also condemn the war on Muslim terrorism.

you should take up a hobby you could meet freaks like you , who knows you might even finally get laid.

[Theo van Gogh Martyrs Brigade]

> you should take up a hobby you could meet freaks like you , who knows you
> might even finally get laid.

As you see this week, you guys tried to silence me from posting a quite legitimate thread and it didn't work. The Sunday Times found these matters newsworthy and now it's being discussed on Prime Time Morrissey-Solo - that is, the main page. If it's fit for the main page this week, it sure as hell was fit for the message board last week. I will not be silenced.

[oaf hater]

after years of pretending that you were actually a moz fan and using that as an excuse to flood this board with your right wing filth, it's good to see that you've finally decided to come clean as a moz hater.
you should be banned from ever posting on this forum but you won't because i'm sure that that other moz hater(davidt) is loving this.

[anonymous]

Animal rights had nothing to do with the murder of Pim Fortuyn. Neither had Islam. Volkert was just your ordinary psycho, involved in some animal rights activism, before going insane and committing murder. Volkert the activist and Volkert the killer are two different people.
Read up idiot.

[Theo van Gogh Martyrs Brigade]

> Animal rights had nothing to do with the murder of Pim Fortuyn. Neither
> had Islam. Volkert was just your ordinary psycho, involved in some animal
> rights activism, before going insane and committing murder. Volkert the
> activist and Volkert the killer are two different people.
> Read up idiot.

I presented some case studies last week of other mentally ill people who got caught up in certain radical groups, both animal rights and environmental, and ended up doing violent acts.

In a minute I will post an article from a animal rights advocate who specifically takes to task the ARM types in the aftermath of the assasination in the Netherlands.

[oaf hater]

> In a minute I will post an article from a animal rights advocate who
> specifically takes to task the ARM types in the aftermath of the
> assasination in the Netherlands.
don't bother
nobody's gonna read it you fucking retartd.

[Theo van Gogh Martyrs Brigade]

> after years of pretending that you were actually a moz fan and using that
> as an excuse to flood this board with your right wing filth, it's good to
> see that you've finally decided to come clean as a moz hater.
> you should be banned from ever posting on this forum but you won't because
> i'm sure that that other moz hater(davidt) is loving this.

After years of being involved in the stalking, trolling, tracking, harassment, etc., of innocent people on this web site, including the obsessive harassment of people who have just had family tragedies in their personal lives, I seriously doubt I will take any lecturing from you. I will say, though, that the evil element that is so prevalent in Morrissey's fanbase is no surprise, and comes from those who latch on to the worst traits of Morrissey, some of which I am discussing in recent threads.

[oaf hater]

> After years of being involved in the stalking, trolling, tracking,
> harassment, etc., of innocent people on this web site, including the
> obsessive harassment of people who have just had family tragedies in their
> personal lives, I seriously doubt I will take any lecturing from you
what?
what the fuck are you on about ow2?
harrament?
stalking?
i think you must be mistaking me for someone else , not that i give a fuck what you think but if you think i'm freeyourself you are very much mistaken.

[Theo van Gogh Martyrs Brigade]

It's nice to see some animal rights advocates who are not as bonkers and fascist as Morrissey.

A key sentence in the below is this: "As do the followers of the dangerous Animal Rights Militia or ETA, he may have thought that the end (animal protection) justifies the means (murder)."

This animal rights advocate refers to the ARM supporters as dangerously violent people who think the ends justify the means. I'll never forget one of my philosophy professors who stressed to me that the means are an end in themself. While I do not agree with most of what this gentleman says, he is a gentleman, and someone with a sense of morality. He is not a fascist.

-----------------------
http://www.animalfreedom.org/english/column/fortuyn.html

The murder of Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn: does left-wing animal rights activism lead to terror?

by Titus Rivas

It appears that an environmental and animal rights activist has shot and killed the popular Dutch party leader Pim Fortuyn. This is a great anomaly in the generally peaceful Dutch political tradition, and totally at odds with our democracy. Logically, all political parties, friend as well as foe, unanimously condemn this murder. And, most likely, almost every individual citizen has distanced himself from it. Such a barbaric crime leads only to great personal suffering and useless polarization.

On May 6th, 2002, the controversial Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn was murdered. As we write this, the suspect is a "left-wing" environmental activist who fights for animal rights, who is also a vegan. What does this say about animal rights and veganism? Can a murder like this ever be morally justified? Are left-wing organizations that stand up for animal rights partly to blame for the murder?

These occurrences may cause many people who are unfamiliar with animal protection, animal rights activists or veganism to develop a totally distorted image of the kind of people who work for these goals. The consequence may be a terrible association between fighting for animal rights and violence against people. However, the large majority of these activists do not perceive a contradiction between animal and human rights, but rather a continuum. They are pleading for animal rights that come down to nothing more than applying (certain) human rights to animals.

It would be utterly absurd to deny people rights that we are at the same time trying to award to animals. There is just a tiny and isolated minority within the world of animal rights activists who think that human rights may be violated for the betterment of animal rights. The Animal Rights Militia and the Justice Department in the UK are small terror organizations that claim to stand up for animals. Animal rights activists in the UK and outside distance themselves utterly from this kind of blinded, terrorist groups.

An article in the Dutch newspaper Telegraaf of May 11th 2002 reports the Dutch Intelligence Service as having claimed that there are a few small groups of independently operating 'cells' of such eco-terrorists in the Netherlands as well. These groups are reported to have become ever more violent over the last few years, and to train in "summer camps". All this can be compared to the relationships in groups that strive to realize a major left-wing social turnaround. Most of these groups operate with zero violence, and respect human rights. There are just a handful of extremist groups such as ETA or the former Rote Armee Faktion (RAF) that are guilty of bloody bomb attacks and other acts of violence. Naturally, these groups are not generally associated with peaceful left-wing or liberal parties such as Dutch political parties "Green Left" or the "Socialist Party".

This heinous deed on May 6th has absolutely nothing to do with the general ideology of people who stand up for animal rights. They reject this murder just as unanimously as does the entire population. And besides, left-wingers usually represent solidarity and progressive change, and will have nothing to do with the violent ending of political opponents' lives.

The suspect's motives

As the media have reported, the suspect had been - before committing his heinous act - an honest vegan without violent tendencies. He devoted himself successfully to court cases against the expansion of factory farming. But on the other hand, he is said to have been overworked and consequently emotionally unstable for some time.

The press claims that before his death, Pim Fortuyn made some remarks about animal-unfriendly measures he planned to propose, and to have made condescending remarks about the environmental movement. This may partly have been what caused the suspect - in his stressed-out condition - to make a fatal decision. Maybe he thought that Fortuyn would reach a great electoral victory the week after, giving him a position in which to realize his plans. As do the followers of the dangerous Animal Rights Militia or ETA, he may have thought that the end (animal protection) justifies the means (murder).

One possibility that was put forward by the media, is that the suspect had secretly been a member of a sort of Dutch Animal Rights Militia for years. In that case, he would have had such fatal ideas for longer, and might even have put them into action earlier.

Some link the suspect's veganism to violence against people. This is strange, because veganism is a diet-plan shared by many very different groups. Veganists disagree amongst themselves about a lot of things. The rejection of terror may be one of the few things all veganists agree on.

Violent action

Does this mean that advocates of animal and human rights may never resort to violent actions? There are situations in which violence seems justified. Ghandi, an advocate of 'ahimsa' (non-violence) even said it was downright cowardly not to apply violence under certain conditions. He referred to situations in which the rights of people or animals are structurally being violated, and there is no possibility of non-violent action. Think for instance of a dictatorship or violent occupation by an outside - repressive - power. There will not be many people who condemn the executions by the Resistance in WW II, insofar as they were deemed necessary. Neither is it seemly to morally reject the armed revolt by the Jewish victims of the Warsaw Ghetto.

But the murder of Pim Fortuyn and the Dutch democracy do not fit this model at all. Fortuyn, no matter how controversial, was definitely not a fascist or a dictator. Neither did he structurally violate animal (or human) rights. There would have been plenty of opportunity for non-violent action, such as voting during the election, to limit his influence. This murder cannot be justified in any way.

Are legal organizations that fight for animal rights partly to blame for the murder of Fortuyn?

Shortly after Pim Fortuyn's violent death, various sympathizers directed emotional reproaches to "left-wingers". Left-wing politicians and personalities were said to have 'demonized' Fortuyn, and to have incited hatred. I think this is totally misplaced and unjustified. Maybe here and there people tended to typify too much, which is always regrettable. But the same thing happens the other way around. Fierce accusations and descriptions, after all, go hand in hand with great contradictions in politics and morality. This seems inevitable, and the fact that it is possible even graces democracy. Persons or organizations can only be deemed partly responsible for the bloody tragedy if there was direct incitement of physical violence and hatred. As far as I know, none of that happened. Neither did I hear anything of the sort from the field of animal rights activists.

Furthermore, left-wingers are said to tolerate extremist groups. Again, this accusation is unjustified. After all, the extremist group or cell the suspect may have been a member of, did not operate openly. One cannot condone something one has no knowledge of.

Fortuyn's followers, just as most of his opponents, are stricken by his untimely death and that is completely understandable. We should be careful not to project conspiracy theories on innocent people who have had no part in this terrible murder.

Let us hope that humanity and reason will soon return to our country.

[Theo van Gogh Martyrs Brigade]

Some of the truth can be found in this message:

http://www.morrissey-solo.com/discuss/index.cgi?noframes;read=295398