When I need comfort

[Mormonissey]

I'll try this again. ARE THERE ANY SPIRITUAL MOZ FANS OUT THERE?
I guess it's ok to riddle the board with unending questions about homosexuality and other trivial pish posh but ask a question about religion and you all clam up like timid little truffles.

The reason I ask is because religion and Morrissey are the two things that matter to me in my life. Is it really so strange? So I was wondering if anyone else is maybe on the same page as me.

Let me start by saying that I've been a big fan for about two years now and have consumed every cd, cd single and video I can get my hands on. The only thing is I can't say I know all that much about the man himself so I thought I'd ask, do you all think him a pretty spiritual guy? I would say that with songs like Now My Heart If Full and There Is A Light That Never Goes Out that he most definitely is. What do you all think?

I love all his songs but November Spawned A Monster holds the most importance to me as I have often felt that that song was written about me. I kinda see this song as my anthem. (I'm a really misunderstood guy).

Anyway, I just got the internet last month and came upon this board and now I have some questions. I can see that some of you think Morrissey is gay but I do not agree. What makes you all think this? Can someone here give a solid argument for this? It really bugs me that so many people think this. I mean I don't think he is gay (I feel strongly that he is not) but I am just wondering why so many people on here think he is?

It's not that I don't like homosexuals but well I really don't think it is Gods way. I don't think homosexuals will go to hell or anything but I don't think God wants people to be homosexuals. I have a feeling that I may get some flak for saying all this but, you know, it takes all kinds to keep the globe spinning steadily on its axis and all.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing everyones opinions on religion and Morrissey just please leave your rusty spanners behind and let's all have an intelligent discussion about it ok? ok!

[Seems a Little Strange]

First of all, welcome to the board!

Second, I think that religion and spirituality aren't very important to Morrissey. There's only a handful of references to religion in all his lyrics. As to "Now My Heart is Full", I believe the phrase refers to having a heart full of sadness.

Third, when it comes to Moz's sexuality, we're all pretty much guessing. None of us really know. A lot of people, for instance, will point to his relationship with Jake Walters, his former personal assistant, to prove he is gay. But even that is so much hearsay. Personally, I feel that sexuality has always been a very confusing and painful issue for Morrissey. He's never been quite sure what he is himself. He certainly has a fascination with gay culture - but then he is interested in outsiders.

And yes, you are going to take some flak about your comments - especially the "homosexuality and other trivial pish posh" one. I can already picture James foaming at the mouth over that.

[justwondering]

Mormonissey...does this mean you're Mormon?

> First of all, welcome to the board!

> Second, I think that religion and spirituality aren't very
> important to Morrissey. There's only a handful of references to
> religion in all his lyrics. As to "Now My Heart is
> Full", I believe the phrase refers to having a heart full
> of sadness.

> Third, when it comes to Moz's sexuality, we're all pretty much
> guessing. None of us really know. A lot of people, for instance,
> will point to his relationship with Jake Walters, his former
> personal assistant, to prove he is gay. But even that is so much
> hearsay. Personally, I feel that sexuality has always been a
> very confusing and painful issue for Morrissey. He's never been
> quite sure what he is himself. He certainly has a fascination
> with gay culture - but then he is interested in outsiders.

> And yes, you are going to take some flak about your comments -
> especially the "homosexuality and other trivial pish
> posh" one. I can already picture James foaming at the mouth
> over that.

[sd]

there is no such thing as god, so what "He" thinks about homosexuality is irrelevant.

there is, however, such a thing as homosexuality. there is also such a thing as homophobia. and there is also such a thing as heterosexism.

there is also such a thing as making comments like "I don't think God wants people to be homosexuals," which are exactly the type of comments gaybashers use to justify the things they do...

there is also a wealth of material (interviews and lyrics and imagery) that supports the argument that morrissey is a homosexual, and no real evidence to the contrary. he is most certainly not heterosexual, and has never claimed to be (whether he is bisexual or simply gay is up for debate perhaps, but the man isn't straight).

[URSULA]

> there is no such thing as god,

in your opinion

so what "He" thinks
> about homosexuality is irrelevant.

to you

I enjoy your posts. I really do. I don't always agree with the sentiments, but it is nice to see intelligence making an appearance on this board once more, and it usually does in your posts. It would seem that you feel very strongly about homosexuality, and you demand and deserve respect of this. But you'll cut your legs right out from under you if you refuse to respect what other people feel strongly about. If you're hoping to win people over to your argument that way, you'll fail just as surely as the narrowminded, bigoted types you've described in your post have failed to make a positive impact on you.

[Get me away from here i'm dying]

> in your opinion

> so what "He" thinks

> to you

> I enjoy your posts. I really do. I don't always agree with the
> sentiments, but it is nice to see intelligence making an
> appearance on this board once more, and it usually does in your
> posts. It would seem that you feel very strongly about
> homosexuality, and you demand and deserve respect of this. But
> you'll cut your legs right out from under you if you refuse to
> respect what other people feel strongly about. If you're hoping
> to win people over to your argument that way, you'll fail just
> as surely as the narrowminded, bigoted types you've described in
> your post have failed to make a positive impact on you.

You know ursula that isnt going to happen....and you most likely will be slapped with the "homophobe" lable.Yes its more then a little sad that people cant share the view they have without being blasted for it.

[Fabricio]

I am another spiritual Morrissey fan here, and I really think he is very spiritual too. In "Black eyed Susan" he criticizes a "born again atheist"; "Ouija Board" is a completely spiritual song; "November Spawned a Monster" he talks that "Jesus made me so"; "satan rejected my soul" is the correct way of someone talks about himself; he has a great Crucifix and a great Virgin Mary in his house; he wore a Virgin t-shirt in a show recently; the way he wants helps other in his songs is without a doubt a religious way of seeing things.

I don't think he is homosexual either, but I don't condemn homosexuals...

> I'll try this again. ARE THERE ANY SPIRITUAL MOZ FANS OUT THERE?
> I guess it's ok to riddle the board with unending questions
> about homosexuality and other trivial pish posh but ask a
> question about religion and you all clam up like timid little
> truffles.

> The reason I ask is because religion and Morrissey are the two
> things that matter to me in my life. Is it really so strange? So
> I was wondering if anyone else is maybe on the same page as me.

> Let me start by saying that I've been a big fan for about two
> years now and have consumed every cd, cd single and video I can
> get my hands on. The only thing is I can't say I know all that
> much about the man himself so I thought I'd ask, do you all
> think him a pretty spiritual guy? I would say that with songs
> like Now My Heart If Full and There Is A Light That Never Goes
> Out that he most definitely is. What do you all think?

> I love all his songs but November Spawned A Monster holds the
> most importance to me as I have often felt that that song was
> written about me. I kinda see this song as my anthem. (I'm a
> really misunderstood guy).

> Anyway, I just got the internet last month and came upon this
> board and now I have some questions. I can see that some of you
> think Morrissey is gay but I do not agree. What makes you all
> think this? Can someone here give a solid argument for this? It
> really bugs me that so many people think this. I mean I don't
> think he is gay (I feel strongly that he is not) but I am just
> wondering why so many people on here think he is?

> It's not that I don't like homosexuals but well I really don't
> think it is Gods way. I don't think homosexuals will go to hell
> or anything but I don't think God wants people to be
> homosexuals. I have a feeling that I may get some flak for
> saying all this but, you know, it takes all kinds to keep the
> globe spinning steadily on its axis and all.

> Anyway, I look forward to hearing everyones opinions on religion
> and Morrissey just please leave your rusty spanners behind and
> let's all have an intelligent discussion about it ok? ok!

[jon]

have you told god about your morrissey fandom? i'm sure "he" would not approve. before you know it you will be wearing blouses and shoving glodioli in your back pocket. and then, god forbid, you will TURN GAY!

i would like to construct an argument for you that proves that moz is either bisexual or gay but there is too much evidence and i don't have the time. there are countless literary allusions, very obvious lyrics, etc. from the first smiths gig where morrissey sang "i want a boyfriend for my birthday" to recent songs like "a swallow on my neck" it is just goddamn obvious.

[URSULA]

> You know ursula that isnt going to happen....and you most likely
> will be slapped with the "homophobe" lable.Yes its
> more then a little sad that people cant share the view they have
> without being blasted for it.

Why is it, though? It's akin the attitude that people often have nowadays that if you ask someone for something, and the person fails to comply than the asker has every right to be as rude, insulting, and cruel as possible. I'm not giving up, though. There are still plenty of nice people out there. There just quiet about it.

[URSULA]

Oh, Jon. I agree with you about so many things. What I don't agree with is when people take the "it's so obvious" route. While things may seem obvious to you because of your experiences and lifestyle, other people may be more open to seeing things from different angles. I fail to see how pointing to various traits, behaviors, or otherwise does anything more than reinforce stereotypes that many homosexuals would feel wounded by if confronted by them *personally.* And yet it is okay to do this to Morrissey. I don't agree. Regardless of his orientation, I think that Morrissey genuinely tried to rise above categorization. A lot of people see that as a cop out because they feel that people who don't come out are damaging to their plight. I think that that attitude is just as dangerous and harmful as homophobia. In a way, it's a type of inverted homophobia.
Ultimately, a million things go into the decisions a person makes about their beliefs and lifestyle, and I don't think any postings to a message board are going to do anything to change beliefs or lifestyles. Therefore, it doesn't serve any purpose at all to be flippant about divergent beliefs or practices, or even rude. If you don't believe in God, then don't. If you aren't gay, then you aren't. But either way, being flip about these or any issues is to your detriment. Along with having an "it's so obvious, I've figured it all out" attitude. I hope you understand what I'm saying. I'm not trying to be pedantic, and I hope I don't come across that way. But when you've figured it all out, how can you learn anything?

[jon]

inverted homophobia is like inverted racism. there is no such thing. heterosexuals have never been oppressed or persecuted as a group. i agree that morrissey escapes categorization, and he does so consciously. he is also consciously paradoxical by embracing gay culture. if it was agreed upon that morrissey is heterosexual, then it could be argued effectively that he is guilty of cultural misappropriation. this isn't really a concern since it is clear that he is not heterosexual. he may wish to be seen as asexual but that would be a premature and problematically divine definition. bisexual is probably the best working definition. one the one hand, by not defining yourself, you can become enigmatic. however, this is the problem: heterosexuality is a public entity. homosexuality is (sadly) seen as a private entity. the inequality between these two has not been sufficiently remedied and this is why choosing not to define your sexuality has such a negative resonance.

the gulf between dominant ideologies like organized religions and (if you want) heterosexuality and the ideologies they oppress is so wide that you can't "just call the whole thing off."

gender, sexuality, (perhaps unfortunately) are systems that we live within. we can't escape them without understanding them completely. we can't become incandescent beings radiating pure sexual energy like morrissey claims to be.

i enjoy these posts and the discussion board lately, and maybe your right in saying that no one is going to change their beliefs, their self-definition, from these posts. but its kind of fun isn't it?

i think that alot of people see my views as divergent and immoral, etc. i certainly am far from knowing everything. however, sometimes it is frustrating to see people (especially on a morrissey board) making moralistic judgments about sexuality. etc

[Moz Gurlie]

I agree, and i agree with your views on religon and
homosexual oppresion by the white, heterosexual men
of history in western culture at least..i have heard of
places that exist and have existed where there isn't a
problem with homosexuality, especially in the days of rome,
in particular. The whole world isn't christian you know..
there are so many religons out there, you just never
hear about them and i bet there a handful that arent condeming
gays to hell. Althought i think in any culture homosexuality
is a threat to pure masculinty. In most cultures,
these "men" are usualy more respected and better off then
"girly men". I am no expert thought, my knowledge on the subject
is not the greatest. Now on to Christianity and western culture,
we are a nasty lot, oppresive and cruel. In the past people
were killed for being gay or anything against the perfect system,
and that includes the system of christianity. Even today, those
people, religous people are always looking to censor or destroy
something not good enough for them. And althought i am not against
that guy that posted the orignal post, i am against organized
religon, it takes away from the individual, and instead of finding
yourself, your finding "god". I belive in the power of ones self
and in the world, one is one's own god, and that you belong
to yourself and no one else..

love,
Moz Gurlie

[Kerissa]

> there is too much evidence

What evidence? Is it things such asliking Oscar Wilde or saying "boyfriend?"

Well, I like k.d. Lang and call my friends "girlfriends." Does that make me gay?

[Kerissa]

What's so great about this discussion and all of the comments that Mormonissey have made is that they are honest.

It takes a lot of inner-strength for Mormonissey admitting his views on homosexuality--knowing the flack he could get from them.

And while I tend to disagree with Jon on many viewpoints, he does tend to give rational answers and a minimum of mudslinging.

I also think that Ursula and Moz Gurlie are good voicesof reason on this discussion board.

[driven mad]

> Morrissey is or at least was not comfortable about his attractions
to males. They were usually attractions aimed at those who were unable
to respond. That can be sad and frustrating and he wrote about it.
Frankly I'm surprised at the amount of fans that missed this foundation of many of his lyrics. Right from the first time I heard
'What difference does it make' I identified. Can't wait for the
L.A. shows.

[dah!]

> What evidence? Is it things such asliking Oscar Wilde or saying
> "boyfriend?"

> Well, I like k.d. Lang and call my friends
> "girlfriends." Does that make me gay?

You are clueless!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr. So&So]

> I'll try this again. ARE THERE ANY SPIRITUAL MOZ FANS OUT THERE?

No. We all killed ourselves when we found out there was no God.

> I guess it's ok to riddle the board with unending questions
> about homosexuality and other trivial pish posh but ask a
> question about religion and you all clam up like timid little
> truffles.

I'm sure that most of us were attending church when your message was posted so please be patient.

> The reason I ask is because religion and Morrissey are the two
> things that matter to me in my life.

I'm sorry.

>Is it really so strange?

Hey, that was a Smiths song.

>So I was wondering if anyone else is maybe on the same page as me.

Only in the footnotes.

> Let me start by saying that I've been a big fan for about two
> years now and have consumed every cd, cd single and video I can
> get my hands on. The only thing is I can't say I know all that
> much about the man himself so I thought I'd ask, do you all
> think him a pretty spiritual guy?

Yes, when it comes to designer clothing.

> I would say that with songs
> like Now My Heart If Full and There Is A Light That Never Goes
> Out that he most definitely is. What do you all think?

Well, when compared with satanic numbers such as "Boxers" and "Sheila Take A Bow" I think the matter is rather up in the air.

> I love all his songs but November Spawned A Monster holds the
> most importance to me as I have often felt that that song was
> written about me. I kinda see this song as my anthem. (I'm a
> really misunderstood guy).

So are most crippled people.

> Anyway, I just got the internet last month and came upon this
> board and now I have some questions.

Never ask questions you expect answers to.

> I can see that some of you
> think Morrissey is gay but I do not agree. What makes you all
> think this?

His masculinity.

> Can someone here give a solid argument for this?

His masculinity.

> It really bugs me that so many people think this. I mean I don't
> think he is gay (I feel strongly that he is not) but I am just
> wondering why so many people on here think he is?

Oh, no reason.

> It's not that I don't like homosexuals but well I really don't
> think it is Gods way.

I understand, but have you ever considered turning to religion?

> I don't think homosexuals will go to hell
> or anything but I don't think God wants people to be
> homosexuals.

You are almost correct, God only wants people to be Christian.

Those who are not Christian he wants to be Gay.

> I have a feeling that I may get some flak for
> saying all this but, you know, it takes all kinds to keep the
> globe spinning steadily on its axis and all.

Just when I'd hoped it would someday end, you go and do something like this to help keep it all going.

> Anyway, I look forward to hearing everyones opinions on religion
> and Morrissey just please leave your rusty spanners behind and
> let's all have an intelligent discussion about it ok? ok!

Jesus will betray you.

He's done it to me, and he'll do it to you.

[THE NEW URSULA]

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that Morrissey is hetero, bi, homo, or whatever. And maybe it is true that he's been uncomfortable with his attraction to males. He certainly has admitted openly to being attracted to both. I take umbrage with the fact that Jon has built a wonderful, and well thought out argument, and then posted in response to somebody with, "I could give you a whole big case, but I haven't got the time..." It kind of takes the wind out of the sails of everything that went before.
I'm not hetero, or homosexual, but somewhere in between myself. But that is only one small part of myself as a person. I am more than just a sexual being, and who I am attracted to is unimportant, unless you happen to be someone to whom I am attracted. This is my opinion. There will come a time when I'll no longer be a sexual being, and that's fine, because my sexuality, while a part of me, is not central to my existence. Similarly, the color of my hair is not central to my existence. When it goes grey, that'll be that. I anticipate being told that no one has ever been persecuted for the color or their hair, but what about the texture of it, or the length of it? Think about it.
(Sorry this was so long!)

[THE NEW URSULA]

> inverted homophobia is like inverted racism.

This is not what I meant by inverted homophobia. What I meant was that applying stereotypes to people in your group is damaging. It is rather like the use of the word "nigger" among blacks as a way of diffusing the power of it, and yet very often this backfires. There is nothing empowering about taking on the sentiments of your oppressor, and I believe that embracing stereotypes is the same thing.

> i enjoy these posts and the discussion board lately, and maybe
> your right in saying that no one is going to change their
> beliefs, their self-definition, from these posts. but its kind
> of fun isn't it?

I enjoy debate. There is much to be gained from being exposed to the views of others if you can eliminate the baseness that resorts to schoolyard namecalling. It just disturbed me that your last post was so flip when obviously you've put so much thought and care into your other posts.

> i think that alot of people see my views as divergent and
> immoral, etc. i certainly am far from knowing everything.
> however, sometimes it is frustrating to see people (especially
> on a morrissey board) making moralistic judgments about
> sexuality. etc

I think making moralistic judgments is part of human nature. I'm sure you'll agree. We all do it to some extent, and in a very real way it is a barometer for social interaction, right or wrong. I happen to think that making moral judgments, or decisions, rather, is compulsory. The problem I have is when people try to apply their moral judgments or decisions to other individuals. Whether you're talking about church leaders or gays as a group. Or anybody. We all have to develop moral courage and inhibiting a person from doing that is inexcusable. Particularly when you take into consideration the fact that many people who make moral judgments or prenouncements on others, would be better off trying to address their own problems.
Take organized religion. Well, okay, not organized religion. How about just God. The concept of God works for me. I have a problem with individuals who use their concept of God to try to manipulate the ideas or behavior of others. You can condemn the whole idea because you've run into people who do nothing but that, but I don't do that, and if I don't, then I have to believe that there are others that don't do that as well.

[jon]

> This is not what I meant by inverted homophobia. What I meant
> was that applying stereotypes to people in your group is
> damaging. It is rather like the use of the word
> "nigger" among blacks as a way of diffusing the power
> of it, and yet very often this backfires. There is nothing
> empowering about taking on the sentiments of your oppressor, and
> I believe that embracing stereotypes is the same thing.

which group is my group? i think reclaimation of derogatory terms is healthy. there is such a huge difference between culture and stereotype.

> I think making moralistic judgments is part of human nature.

human nature? that's no excuse. the number one excuse for deviant acts is human nature.