why all the Roarke related contempt?

[vincent]

is he such a horrid person after all? who knows how he truly feels, i always thought he was very loyal to the smiths and morrissey and not to mention integral.

[Paula]

> is he such a horrid person after all? who knows how he truly¿ feels, i always thought he was very loyal to the smiths and¿ morrissey and not to mention integral.

I agree!!

[Lifeguard Sleeping]

> is he such a horrid person after all? who knows how he truly¿ feels, i always thought he was very loyal to the smiths and¿ morrissey and not to mention integral.

After all, he WAS Johnny's best mate, wasn't he? I, for one, feel sorry for all his misfortune - say what you will about the guy, he was a great bass player for an awesome group.

[squeaky fromme]

> I agree!!

Really, you agree? No kidding? That tells us a lot about your own insight. You're too clever.

If you want to quickly understand why people don't like Rourke JUST LOOK AT HIM.

[Mr. So&So]

I can't stop sweating about you!

[Suzanne]

> After all, he WAS Johnny's best mate, wasn't he? I, for one,¿ feel sorry for all his misfortune - say what you will about the¿ guy, he was a great bass player for an awesome group.

I think it's kind of sad that such a good bass player can't get decent enough work to keep out of bankruptcy. Why is that? True, there are those people out there that will be broke no matter how much money you give them, but it looks like he's sort of kicking around in the dirt compared to what he could be doing.


The Roscoe P. Coletrane experience

[Paula]

> is he such a horrid person after all?

To elaborate on this point -

Of course he wasn't a horrid person but many Morrissey fans are fiercely loyal to him so anyone Morrissey isn't fond of is basically looked upon as the enemy by his fans. It's quite insane really.

Actually what I find from talking to other Smiths/Moz fans is this: The ones who think that Moz did most of his best work in The Smiths have sympathy for Andy and Mike. Those fans appreciated the whole group. The fans that prefer Morrissey solo and really were only into The Smiths strictly for Morrissey think Andy and Mike are basically leeches.

[AnCoats]

¿ I can't stop sweating about you!

I'm so very sickened

Oh, I am so sickened NOW

--AnCoats

[Paul]

> To elaborate on this point -¿ Of course he wasn't a horrid person but many Morrissey fans are¿ fiercely loyal to him so anyone Morrissey isn't fond of is¿ basically looked upon as the enemy by his fans. It's quite¿ insane really.¿ Actually what I find from talking to other Smiths/Moz fans is¿ this: The ones who think that Moz did most of his best work in¿ The Smiths have sympathy for Andy and Mike. Those fans¿ appreciated the whole group. The fans that prefer Morrissey solo¿ and really were only into The Smiths strictly for Morrissey¿ think Andy and Mike are basically leeches.

Exactly. Like Morrissey ever gave a crap about Rourke and Joyce when the Smiths were together. Jesus Christ! He was practically in love with Johnny Marr! Common scenario: fans always love the lead singer and guitarist, but the bassist and the drummer? Screw them! So what if Joyce and Rourke got mucho dinero off of Morrissey? I don't see Morrissey hanging out at some homeless shelter anytime soon. When it comes to myself, I see the Smiths as Moz, Marr, Rourke and Joyce, not Moz/Marr. It was called the Smiths folks, not Morrissey and Marr like Page and Plant. None of the Smiths' songs would've had a complete outing without Rourke's bass or Joyce's drumming. I love Morrissey, but if he asked me to jump off a cliff, I'd say to him, @#!!! YOU! Who do you think you are? Damn, that won't sound as dramatic since the board is going to censor it, but you get my point.

[Jamie]

So why is everyone so contemptuous of Mr. Roarke? Fantasy Island was a charming show in its day. Ricardo Montalban was stunning, wasn't he? I like Mr. Roarke just fine.

It's Andy Rourke I have problems with...

Cheers,

Jamie

[Iain]

Andy Rourke made 10% of everything the Smiths ever earned. He also got the writers credit for a couple of Morrissey tracks, both of which ahve appeared on assorted compliations. This translates into a rather large pile of money, more than you and i will ever see.
Now the reasons for the loss of such a large amount of money could be varied. However, at best, he's certainly shown he isnt very intelligent, in a financial sense at any rate.
Essentially, im not going to shed any tears for a financially irresponsible once rich man who has pissed his money away..

[Mll]

> So why is everyone so contemptuous of Mr. Roarke? Fantasy Island¿ was a charming show in its day. Ricardo Montalban was stunning,¿ wasn't he? I like Mr. Roarke just fine.¿ It's Andy Rourke I have problems with...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ...sorry I just found that so damn amusing.. Esp. with sneaking Tattoo in the subject heading.. I forgot about that show...hehehe

Cheers~!
MLL

[Paula]

> Andy Rourke made 10% of everything the Smiths ever earned. He¿ also got the writers credit for a couple of Morrissey tracks,¿ both of which ahve appeared on assorted compliations. This¿ translates into a rather large pile of money,

A rather large pile of money you say? I don't know how much Andy actually made in The Smiths and neither do you. In fact, Morrissey has said countless times in interviews how little money he himself made in The Smiths and he made 40% plus songwriting royalties so...
As for the songs Andy wrote the music to (Yes I am Blind and Girl Least Likely To)I highly doubt he made a bundle from them. In fact
I bet he didn't make squat.¿ i will ever see. Now the reasons for the loss of such a large >amount of money could be varied. However, at best, he's certainly >shown he isnt very intelligent, in a financial sense at any rate.

Yes I agree he obviously squandered his money foolishly. I also believe that if Andy didn't squander his money in The Smiths he would not be a rich man today. Did Mike Joyce squander all his money too?¿ Essentially, im not going to shed any tears for a financially¿ irresponsible once rich man who has pissed his money away..

Well I haven't shed any tears either Iain. Simply put it's not about how Andy spent his money and how foolish he was with it. It's about how he and Mike were treated unfairly in the first place which I believe they were. I mean 10%? Come on, that's a slap in the face!

[boyleastlikelytoo(kakarot)]

how much do you think they should have gotten then?

25%?

[Iain]

> A rather large pile of money you say? I don't know how much Andy¿ actually made in The Smiths and neither do you.
Agreed i dont know exacly how much he made. But it shouldnt be forgotten that the Smiths were not some obscure band who sold handfulls of records. They were absolutely massive and sold huge quantities of records. So ill stand by my assertion that he has received a large amount of money from Smiths record sales.¿ As for the songs Andy wrote the music to (Yes I am Blind and¿ Girl Least Likely To)I highly doubt he made a bundle from them.¿ In fact¿ I bet he didn't make squat.

YOu should bear in mind that Yes I Am Blind was featured on Bona Drag, a record that sold hugely in Britain and America. To get a songwriting credit on that would certainly amount to more than "squat"¿ Yes I agree he obviously squandered his money foolishly. I also¿ believe that if Andy didn't squander his money in The Smiths he¿ would not be a rich man today. Did Mike Joyce squander all his¿ money too?

MIke Joyce may or may not have squandered money. He's certainly squandered any respect i had for him, but thats another issue.¿ Well I haven't shed any tears either Iain. Simply put it's not¿ about how Andy spent his money and how foolish he was with it.¿ It's about how he and Mike were treated unfairly in the first¿ place which I believe they were. I mean 10%? Come on, that's a¿ slap in the face!

All i will say on the above is that MIke Joyce did not change my life, Nor did Andy Rourke, or Johnny Marr. One person did and it was Morrissey. So to be honest I dont care much whether they received i 5 or 10 %. They were very fortunate individuals whose subsequnt careers have borne their good luck out.

[Mr. So&So]

> Agreed i dont know exacly how much he made. But it shouldnt be¿ forgotten that the Smiths were not some obscure band who sold¿ handfulls of records. They were absolutely massive and sold huge¿ quantities of records. So ill stand by my assertion that he has¿ received a large amount of money from Smiths record sales.

But like she said, the Mozzer claimed to make little on the Smiths, so if this is true, Andy and Mike were probably doing a bit worse.¿ YOu should bear in mind that Yes I Am Blind was featured on Bona¿ Drag, a record that sold hugely in Britain and America. To get a¿ songwriting credit on that would certainly amount to more than¿ "squat"

But do you honestly believe he was going to make a large amount of money off of two song writing credits?

Let's not get carried away.

I don't care how many copies it sold, I still don't believe it would have amounted to very much.¿ MIke Joyce may or may not have squandered money. He's certainly¿ squandered any respect i had for him, but thats another issue.

Oh, because he tried to secure a future for his wife and family?

That's the problem, Morrissey is responsible for nobody but himself.

At least Joyce attempted to communicate with people that were supposed to be his friends.

I think it's obvious that near the end of The Smiths time, Morrissey was beginning to believe that there was only one member of The Smiths.

Hell, even Johnny feels no hard feelings for the matter.

I think deep down he knew that Morrissey had the financial matters all planned out from the very beginning.

It's blatantly obvious that there was never the intention of "The Smiths" as a band financially.

At least in Morrissey's notebook.

Yet, Morrissey always claimed their importance and his devotion to them in interviews.

But when it involved money, it was "Joyce and Andy who?"

All of those interviews where he claimed to love the other mebers just as much, was utter bullshlit!

At least Joyce showed up for gigs on time and was reliable.

Most people would have gotten fired for the shlit that Morrissey pulled in the days of The Smiths.

It amazes me that people on this forum still believe that Morrissey is getting scrwed around by everyone.

Here is a man who had only bedroom ambitions until a man named John Marr, sought him out, and basically was his artistic nurse maid.

Remeber something, Morrissey had the luxury of resigning in his room at the end of the day, watch a few movies, read a few books, and come up with often plagiarized phrases to dress his songs with.

Oh, and sifting through his collection of photographs to use for album covers.

I think you would agree that the musicians have a rougher go at it in terms of the music making process.

Do you believe Morrissey honestly cared about learning how to produce an album?

No, because momma Marr was there to take care of it.

Do you truly think this man ever had it that bad?

Johnny was the work horse, and without him there would never have been The Smiths, period.

You know as well as I do that Morrissey could have never struck out on his own, and forged a career by himself.

He was already established when he chose to pursue his solo career.

Mike, and Andy desreve just as much credit.

It takes more than album covers, and witty interviews to keep a group running, which I'm sure you are aware of.

Mike Joyce had every right to pursue a court case against Morrissey, and the way Morrissey handled it was simply childish.

It may be cute to send out a childish fatwahs in an interview or whatever, but to write a God-awful song about it shows, to me, that Mozzer hasn't grown much as a person.

The saddest thing anyone could ever not do in their life is to grow and learn.

There is nothing productive about remainig in the same mode of thought for the rest of your life, and Morrissey has shown no evidence of significant change.

I think it displays a bit of childishness that people on this forum cannot see past their unhealthy devotion to Morrissey, and realize that a lot of who he is, is not necessarily admirable.

Whether Andy squanderd his money or not, he should have received his fair share.

Andy's biggest mistake was not pursuing a court case like Joyce.

It's funny, while Andy and Joyce were in the studio slaving away, Morrissey was probably out buying exotic leather shoes and James Dean memorabilia with their share.

I think your loss of respect should be more reasonable, and well directed.¿ All i will say on the above is that MIke Joyce did not change my¿ life, Nor did Andy Rourke, or Johnny Marr. One person did and it¿ was Morrissey. So to be honest I dont care much whether they¿ received i 5 or 10 %. They were very fortunate individuals whose¿ subsequnt careers have borne their good luck out.

No, Morrissey was a very fortunate individual, who slowly, over time began to believe his own bull@#!!!.

The others just got caught in the thick.

I have always felt that there would still be The Smiths if Morrissey knew how to communicate like a normal human being.

To say you don't care, simply because Joyce, Johnny, or Andy, didn't write the lyrics to "I Know It's Over," displays that you had no true intentions of debating this subject based on reality.

Let's put things in perspective.

Your are going on about a man who only wrote pop songs.

If you should feel greatful for anyone, you should feel grateful for "Bob the cave man," the guy who discovered the wheel.

He did more for your life, and this world than Morrissey ever has or will.

Morrissey is just an entertainer, who could care less how our lives function.

Yet, he sits back in luxury while we argue over his past, present and future.

It seems the more he shuns and insults us with ridiculous compilations and LPs, the more devoted we become.

We are carrying on like battered house-wives.

It's funny, in the end, Mike and Andy got screwed by a man who always claimed he didn't.

-So&So

[Iain]

> But like she said, the Mozzer claimed to make little on the¿ Smiths, so if this is true, Andy and Mike were probably doing a¿ bit worse.¿ But do you honestly believe he was going to make a large amount¿ of money off of two song writing credits?¿ Let's not get carried away.¿ I don't care how many copies it sold, I still don't believe it¿ would have amounted to very much.

i didnt say a large amount of money, i said it amounted to more than squat.¿ Oh, because he tried to secure a future for his wife and family?¿ That's the problem, Morrissey is responsible for nobody but¿ himself.

Arent we all only responsible for ourselves. Does Morrisseys lack of family ties make him a less valuable human being?¿ At least Joyce attempted to communicate with people that were¿ supposed to be his friends.

Didnt Morrissey hold out an olive branch by having them record on some of the early singles. pklus having them play at Wolverhampton?¿ I think it's obvious that near the end of The Smiths time,¿ Morrissey was beginning to believe that there was only one¿ member of The Smiths.

Why is this obvious? It's common knowledge that morrissey was devastated by the split. Although certainly Morrisseys out put post smiths would indicate that he had less reason to be devastated than any other of the band members¿ Hell, even Johnny feels no hard feelings for the matter.¿ I think deep down he knew that Morrissey had the financial¿ matters all planned out from the very beginning.¿ It's blatantly obvious that there was never the intention of¿ "The Smiths" as a band financially.¿ At least in Morrissey's notebook.

Well Johnny marr signed that contract. Johnny Marr also benefited, he also contested the court case. So its silly to attempt to absolve Marr of any blame.¿ Yet, Morrissey always claimed their importance and his devotion¿ to them in interviews.¿ But when it involved money, it was "Joyce and Andy¿ who?"¿ All of those interviews where he claimed to love the other¿ mebers just as much, was utter bullshlit!

Times change, people move on. Do you ahve the same friends you had 10 yrs ago?¿ At least Joyce showed up for gigs on time and was reliable.

Isnt Morrisseys elusiveness part of the appeal. if the Smiths wanted a "professional" they could ahve jsut got Phil Collins in or something. And beelvie me ive been on the receving end of numerous Morrissey cancelations so i am well aware of the hurt they can cause¿ Most people would have gotten fired for the shlit that Morrissey¿ pulled in the days of The Smiths.

Well Morrissey isnt most people. He was what made the Smiths unique - what gave them that indefinable something¿ It amazes me that people on this forum still believe that¿ Morrissey is getting scrwed around by everyone.¿ Here is a man who had only bedroom ambitions until a man named¿ John Marr, sought him out, and basically was his artistic nurse¿ maid.¿ Remeber something, Morrissey had the luxury of resigning in his¿ room at the end of the day, watch a few movies, read a few¿ books, and come up with often plagiarized phrases to dress his¿ songs with.

Im astonished anyone on this board cna denigrate Morrisseys involvement in the SMiths. He wrote and writes wonderul lyrics. He also, along with Johnny , handled most of the business side of the band, the marketing campaigsn, tour planning. To suggest Morrissey had an easy time of it is a nonsense¿ Oh, and sifting through his collection of photographs to use for¿ album covers.¿ I think you would agree that the musicians have a rougher go at¿ it in terms of the music making process.¿ Do you believe Morrissey honestly cared about learning how to¿ produce an album?

Well he certainly cared how it sounded. He may or may not ahve been as heavily involved in the production as Marr - neither you or i know¿ No, because momma Marr was there to take care of it.¿ Do you truly think this man ever had it that bad?

Well i would suggest losing a court case, a manager, a video director and a producer in the space of a few yrs doesnt make for a pleasant state of mind¿ Johnny was the work horse, and without him there would never¿ have been The Smiths, period.

And without Morrissey the smiths would jsut ahve been a good band- no more, no less¿ You know as well as I do that Morrissey could have never struck¿ out on his own, and forged a career by himself.

He may or may not have - im jsut thankful he got out of that bedroom¿ He was already established when he chose to pursue his solo¿ career.¿ Mike, and Andy desreve just as much credit.

Nonsense - they turned up, played bass and drums adequately and went home and watched Coronation Street or whatever¿ It takes more than album covers, and witty interviews to keep a¿ group running, which I'm sure you are aware of.

Yes it also takes explosive live shows, wonderful records, vocals that can make your heart stop - and Morrissey provided them in abundance¿ Mike Joyce had every right to pursue a court case against¿ Morrissey, and the way Morrissey handled it was simply childish.¿ It may be cute to send out a childish fatwahs in an interview or¿ whatever, but to write a God-awful song about it shows, to me,¿ that Mozzer hasn't grown much as a person.

Morrissey has every right to defend himself in whatever way he sees fit. ANd isnt the desire for revenge a strong motive in us all?¿ The saddest thing anyone could ever not do in their life is to¿ grow and learn.

Morrissey - " dont rake up my mistakes, i know exactly what theya re"¿ There is nothing productive about remainig in the same mode of¿ thought for the rest of your life, and Morrissey has shown no¿ evidence of significant change.

But any time Morrissey does something unexpected he is accused of hypocrisy - he cant win.¿ I think it displays a bit of childishness that people on this¿ forum cannot see past their unhealthy devotion to Morrissey, and¿ realize that a lot of who he is, is not necessarily admirable.

Some parts of Morrissey may well be undesirable. But he means a lot to me - thats what matters.¿ Whether Andy squanderd his money or not, he should have received¿ his fair share.¿ Andy's biggest mistake was not pursuing a court case like Joyce.

He would very possibly be dead if he had got that money¿ It's funny, while Andy and Joyce were in the studio slaving¿ away, Morrissey was probably out buying exotic leather shoes and¿ James Dean memorabilia with their share.

Its always Morrissey you blame-. i dont see any comment about Johnny Marr buying expensive guitars and taking " how to pose like a rock star twat" lessons¿ I think your loss of respect should be more reasonable, and well¿ directed.¿ No, Morrissey was a very fortunate individual, who slowly, over¿ time began to believe his own bull @#!!! .

If you beelvie this, why do you even come to this board? Is Morrissey really so unworthy of respect?¿ The others just got caught in the thick.¿ I have always felt that there would still be The Smiths if¿ Morrissey knew how to communicate like a normal human being.

Im glad there isnt a Smiths. If they hadnt split we would have been denied " Now My HEart is Full", " The Teachers are Afraid of the Pupils", " Jack the Ripper" and various other wonderful songs¿ To say you don't care, simply because Joyce, Johnny, or Andy,¿ didn't write the lyrics to "I Know It's Over,"¿ displays that you had no true intentions of debating this¿ subject based on reality.¿ Let's put things in perspective.¿ Your are going on about a man who only wrote pop songs.¿ If you should feel greatful for anyone, you should feel grateful¿ for "Bob the cave man," the guy who discovered the¿ wheel.¿ He did more for your life, and this world than Morrissey ever¿ has or will.

Pop music is a powerful medium -a s are words - Morrissey is a master of both. My life would simply have not been as pleasurable without him.¿ Morrissey is just an entertainer, who could care less how our¿ lives function.

Yes and hes a very very good one.¿ Yet, he sits back in luxury while we argue over his past,¿ present and future.¿ It seems the more he shuns and insults us with ridiculous¿ compilations and LPs, the more devoted we become.

You dont like them? Dont buy them.¿ We are carrying on like battered house-wives.¿ It's funny, in the end, Mike and Andy got screwed by a man who¿ always claimed he didn't.

Oh and you had to bring sex into it didnt you. ANd again Marr escapes scot free

[boyleastlikelytoo(kakarot)]

hmmm...so and so actually made a honest argument this time...though i must say moz and marr in my book deserved the larger part of the royalties..though rourke and joyce should have gotten more then 10% but thats my humble opinion.......I ask you all how do you know any of this is true, what has been said from any of these people that were in the smiths? I am sure they are all bitter and I am sure that moz was partly at fault...but how many of you could say so for sure? not me! I haven't got a clue......listen to the smiths listen to moz love the music....

[Paula]

> YOu should bear in mind that Yes I Am Blind was featured on Bona¿ Drag, a record that sold hugely in Britain and America. To get a¿ songwriting credit on that would certainly amount to more than¿ "squat"

We will have to ask Andy how much money he made from them.¿ MIke Joyce may or may not have squandered money. He's certainly¿ squandered any respect i had for him, but thats another issue.

Well you just completely avoided my point - for obvious reasons.

So you have lost respect for Mike because.... Why because he went after what should have been his? If it was the reverse situation and Morrissey felt he was done wrong and was owed something you would feel quite differently, I am sure. You would be there at the courtroom holding up signs of support for him. And that is simply because all of your reasoning is based on emotion rather than logic. And just think I'm the woman in this conversation!! HAHAHA!¿ All i will say on the above is that MIke Joyce did not change my¿ life, Nor did Andy Rourke, or Johnny Marr. One person did and it¿ was Morrissey

First off Morrissey could not have brought his message to you without Marr. Second off we all know that Morrissey wrote brilliant lyrics which spoke to his fans but it is not necessary to diminish the efforts of Andy and Mike to put Morrissey at the top of the totem pole. It is not necessary to make it out like they were worthless leeches, that attitude makes me sick.

Aslo Iain, did you ever stop to think that maybe Morrissey was fortunate to be associated with Johnny Marr? It works both ways. They were lucky to find each other. They worked wonderfully together and each brought something special to the partnership. One could not have existed without the other.¿ So to be honest I dont care much whether they¿ received i 5 or 10 %. They were very fortunate individuals whose¿ subsequnt careers have borne their good luck out.

I also have a problem when I hear all those Smiths interviews where Morrissey spoke of their "group mentality" what the hell was he talking about? What he wanted the public to preceive was obviously a lie.

You have a dreadful attitude Iain. To say that you don't care if Andy and Mike received even 5% is incredibly ignorant and sounds a bit spiteful. I mean why pay them at all then. They were just lucky to be along for the ride to hear you talk. That is not the way a group works I'm sorry to say. Unfortunately for Morrissey, until he can play drums and bass, he is going to have to grudgingly dole out what is due to those that can.

[Paula]

> how much do you think they should have gotten then?¿ 25%?

I think they should have received the same as Morrissey and Marr for the tours and for their playing on the albums.

A group works best when everyones efforts are appreciated. I don't think Andy and Mike were appreciated and I find that sad. Sure Morrissey and Marr were the main force in The Smiths, Andy and Mike knew that, they're not stupid. They just wanted to be treated fairly. Is that too much to ask from your bandmates who are supposed to be your friends?

Take a group like REM for example. They all respect each other and what each member brings to the group. That's why their band works and has stayed together. I don't like the elitist attitude that exists within some bands. There is no need to slap yourself on the back at the expense of someone else.

PS - I'm sorry Kakarot those last two paragraphs were not directed at you, I'm just ranting again!!