Hey Chill . Thank you for proving my point!

[Mr. Honesty]

That so-called "progressives" are the least tolerent ,most close-minded, people of all. The fact that you would have and eagerly express such horrid,negative views on forms of Christianity but ,no doubt would NEVER make such a statement about other forms of spirituality is proof of that.

[Chill]

Yes I would. I dislike something about all organized religions. Just the other day, I was talking to my brother about the many reasons for which I could never be a Muslim or a Jew. Also, have you not seen me talk about my distaste for Mormonism (a Christian sect, but just barely)? (By the way, of all religions, I have an especial right to bash Mormonism, having been raised in that despicable belief system.) Fact is, I can find something to complain about in every religion. I believe that all of them are false. I do not, however, dislike all religious people -- something I made clear in my post.

But thanks for putting words in my mouth. I can't wait for what's next. Something along the lines of "You took the bait," I'm sure.

[CrushingBore]

Or perhaps proof that people feel most comfortable criticising that which they know most about - in this case being the various strands of Christianity.

Hey Mindy - do Mormons actually consider themselves Christians? I'm assuming so - but I guess the majority of the Christian world would probably disagree. I mean, when most people talk about "Christian denominations", they usually talk about Anglican, Protestant, Catholic, Lutheran, etc - or am I just too far from Salt Lake City for Mormonism even to register?

[Bruno Anthony]

> Yes I would. I dislike something about all organized religions. Just the
> other day, I was talking to my brother about the many reasons for which I
> could never be a Muslim or a Jew. Also, have you not seen me talk about my
> distaste for Mormonism (a Christian sect, but just barely)? (By the way,
> of all religions, I have an especial right to bash Mormonism, having been
> raised in that despicable belief system.) Fact is, I can find something to
> complain about in every religion. I believe that all of them are false. I
> do not, however, dislike all religious people -- something I made clear in
> my post.

Nicely said Chill, I'm on the same page with you but was luckily not raised Mormon or any other organized religion, my parents taught us that knowing right from wrong and respecting people was all the religion we needed.

[Chill]

> Or perhaps proof that people feel most comfortable criticising that which
> they know most about - in this case being the various strands of
> Christianity.

Partly true in my case. Because I come from the Mormon (and tangentially the Christian) tradition, I know the most about it and criticize it more eruditely than I can, say, Islam. But I honestly don't let that stop me. I've studied all of the major world religions, perhaps not as in-depth as some people, but I know enough to make my own conclusions. I've also studied some smaller, lesser known ones like Kashmir Shaivism and I've read up on various sects, splinter groups and cults.

The main reason I criticize Christianity and Mormonism so much is that -- shock, horror -- those are the two religions I come into contact with most frequently and often with negative results as well. I am constantly badgered by Mormon relatives and Christian acquaintances and I'm less than thrilled with the Christian Right's place in American politics today (which incidentally, the Mormon church supports wholeheartedly). So of course I'm going to criticize them if the subject comes up. Next time a non-Christian or a non-Mormon starts preaching about his or her religion to me, I'll lay into them as well.

I believe in respecting people and their right to hold certain beliefs. I do not, however, believe that the beliefs themselves need necessarily be respected -- and especially not just because they're "spiritual." Very few people respect my lack of belief in god, so I'm just returning the favor. It's a fact of life that beliefs can be stupid and even wrong. If you believe the earth is flat, you're wrong factually and objectively. If you believe black people are inferior to white people, you're wrong to, at least in my opinion. I don't see why religious beliefs need be treated any different than other beliefs that are wholly subjective.

> Hey Mindy - do Mormons actually consider themselves Christians? I'm
> assuming so - but I guess the majority of the Christian world would
> probably disagree. I mean, when most people talk about "Christian
> denominations", they usually talk about Anglican, Protestant,
> Catholic, Lutheran, etc - or am I just too far from Salt Lake City for
> Mormonism even to register?

Mormons do consider themselves Christians. I guess they are by the standard definition. They do believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. My problem (and a problem a lot of people have) is how Mormons used to deemphasize Christ and deify Joseph Smith and the current living "prophet." Now they're trying to pass themselves off as just another mainstream Christian church to the point of handing out Bibles instead of Book of Mormons for free. It's a bit of a joke and mindboggling to anyone who grew up in the church and then left to see how Christ has suddenly taken center stage. I guess it's to distract people from the stories about seer stones and Native Americans being white Hebrews. I should say though that I personally think that Christianity is pretty absurd, every bit as absurd as most people find Mormonism. We've just don't think so because we've had 2,000 years to get used to it.

Funny how a couple jokey statements of mine have led to me basically heaping more damnation onto myself with this rant!

[Chill]

> Nicely said Chill, I'm on the same page with you but was luckily not
> raised Mormon or any other organized religion, my parents taught us that
> knowing right from wrong and respecting people was all the religion we
> needed.

Thanks Bruno. I think that's really all the religion anyone needs. If they want more, that's fine by me...until they start preaching. Because then that means I've got to start preaching!

[Mr.Improper PIMP for the betterment of society]

Hey chill, you need not "explain yourself" about religious beliefs......I think they're all false.....I have my reasons and i personally dont give a fuck if that offends people. You believe what you want to believe and i and so on...but dont ever fuckin preach or try to tell someone else you're "offended " by something they did,said or believe in...you know what i mean??? if they dont like it when others try that with them(and they dont regardless of what the fuck they say...they're goddamned liars),then they shouldnt do it to others. Keep your religion to yourself is all I fuckin say...i dont want to hear about it...... Like i said in a prior post....EVERYONE does something to offend someone else....EVERYONE does!!!!! So do me and yourselves a favor you religious bible toters: shut the fuck up about your beliefs,dont throw them onto someone else,do not try to "convert" or "turn them" into something you want them to be. Last I looked,i didnt need permission to take a shit..... or anything else for that matter..... So take your religous garbage and shove it up your holy asses...... if you dont like that..........FUCK OFF!!!!!! believe what you want to believe....let me do the same...Im glad you feel the need to take it upon yourselves to try to talk to me and others about the "joys of christianity" and so on......... As if someone has the right to come up and give me odd jobs............ I didnt ask for it...so dont do it.......

[Mr.Improper PIMP for the betterment of society]

And save yourselves a good beating..........

[Mary Jane Jacobs]

> And save yourselves a good beating..........

LOL!

[The Walk]

> That so-called "progressives" are the least tolerent ,most
> close-minded, people of all. The fact that you would have and eagerly
> express such horrid,negative views on forms of Christianity but ,no doubt
> would NEVER make such a statement about other forms of spirituality is
> proof of that.

Mr. Honestly,

Why waste your time. Honestly, most Christians I know would look at that title and guess that's its going to have something that wouldn't necessarily be to Morrissey's benefit on Judgement day, but so are a lot of other things he does (and that we do as well). My point is, most Christians wouldn't care, he's playing with his own eternity.

But, it would have been VERY intersting to see a title on the album that read, "I forgive you Mohammed/Allah." I could already here the "progressives" on this board shying away from that one. Or, maybe Morrissey should write a song talking about how the "Thousand Virgins" that he gets after blowing himself up in a public restaurant will be men (I can't lie, this would actually make me laugh).

"Progessives" find it o.k. to offend anyone but their own. What's new though.

[The Walk]

> Or perhaps proof that people feel most comfortable criticising that which
> they know most about - in this case being the various strands of
> Christianity.

> Hey Mindy - do Mormons actually consider themselves Christians? I'm
> assuming so - but I guess the majority of the Christian world would
> probably disagree. I mean, when most people talk about "Christian
> denominations", they usually talk about Anglican, Protestant,
> Catholic, Lutheran, etc - or am I just too far from Salt Lake City for
> Mormonism even to register?

In Christianity,

Christ is God, not Satan's brother. Satan doesn't hold a candle to Jesus.

[Chill]

Your argument makes no sense. Why would Morrissey sing about Islam? He was raised in the Catholic tradition. He has made it clear that he has had a personal beef with the church in the past. This seems to be a natural progression for him. Why does he need to show that he has cajones anyway? Cajones by your standards, anyway. I don't think Morrissey is the type to go around offending people just for the sake of offending people (yet another thing the two of you DON'T have in common.)

Finally, what are you saying about progressives exactly? LoafingOaf/Mr. Honestly was trying to make some point about how I -- a liberal or progressive or whatever you wish to call it -- only offended the tradition out of which I was born as opposed to various other traditions. Basically, he was accusing me of being ultra-politically correct. You seem to be in agreement with him, but then you say that progressives will offend anyone but their own. What the hell does that mean? Doesn't that pretty much define just about everybody? Most people don't go out of their way to offend their own kind. It's called human nature.

Furthermore, I don't know what exactly your point is since I -- a progressive -- do, in a way, criticize my own kind or at least certain aspects of the society and culture that created me. If I only "offended" other people without stopping to think about what's wrong with the picture back home, that would be called "hubris." I am also critical of political correctness run amock (remember, fundamentalism in all its forms sucks) and other obsessions of some liberal factions, so in that sense, I'm critical of my own kind as well, my adopted kin.

Anyway, I know you're just trying to wind people up, so I won't put too much stock in this. However, please try to make sense next time. Thanks.

[Vicky Vandal]

[LoafingOaf]

> LoafingOaf/Mr.
> Honestly was trying to make some point about how I -- a liberal or
> progressive or whatever you wish to call it -- only offended the tradition
> out of which I was born as opposed to various other traditions. Basically,
> he was accusing me of being ultra-politically correct. You seem to be in
> agreement with him

Uhhh....I didn't post under the name Mr. Honestly. I looked at his message and I suppose I can understand the mistake, although I sure wouldn't say you have horrid views on Christianity.

And I don't mind you saying your favorite hobby is to gleefully offend Christians. What made me chuckle was remembering you and a couple others calling me a RACIST for not giving proper resect to Islamic beliefs. I guess whatever you called me back then applies to you as well, with two distinctions. One, I don't single out one of the major religions for my contempt quite as much as you do (I think Islam currently is the worst because it hasn't modernized in the way Judaism and Christianity have, but all three have been pretty damn evil to the world). And two, I don't actually try and offend anyone for being muslim or christian or whatever. I simply think their brains are infected by a virus that causes much of the world's ills. Maybe that is bound to offend them when they hear it, but no more than their opinions of ahteism. The point is, though, I don't WANT to offend people.

[Mr.Improper PIMP to the PETA people]

Chill,calm yourself dear...its not worth it....they aint worth it.....Like i said...unless you agree with their opinions...you're wrong and they're right........I say...they can suck my fuckin cock...... How about that????? you dont agree with that???? no problem how about this then:you,your mom,your family can all suck my cocky cock........Fuck you and your opinions....opinions are like assholes...EVERYONES got one.,....... just some people have some no one else wants to see or hear or read about... I dont give a shit about you or your fuckin Opinions.........fuck you...thats what you tell 'em chill...I do...they dont like me too well for that do they??? oh well.they'll deal with it........

[Worm]

In Christianity,

Christ is God, not Satan's brother. Satan doesn't hold a candle to Jesus.


Yet again I have been rendered speechless by the veritable treasure trove of esoterica that is the Morrissey Solo Discussion Page.