Anti-Morrissey demo from 1992

Re: Keep waving the Union Jack

> Ha ha! This sounds like a Mail on Sunday editorial.

aah youth. They think they know everything but don't have the sense to realise that by being young they automatically know very little. Not because they're stupid (far from it) but because they're young.
All the researching and discussing and theorising in the world will never take them back to the grim UK inner cities of the early 80's, when Asian youths tottered around on Spice Girl-style platforms and their wide-bottomed trousers flapped around in the wind.
By then everyone , whether they were punk, post-punk shoe-gazers, mod, two-tone, new romantic, or heavy metal, had binned the wide-bottomed trouser and high shoes.
But the youth of today don't believe me and they don't believe Morrissey, who was commenting on what was always a highly-amusing spectacle.
The Asian youth of today in the UK are as cool and hip and trendy as their skinny white indie kid peers.
Twenty-odd years ago it was a completely different story.
But you had to be there.
 
Re: Keep waving the Union Jack

Some of The Ruts earliest gigs were at local community centres in Southall which were populated with mainly Asian youths, they would play these many times over, Malcolm described these as being as vibrant and alive as any gigs they played with a majority White crowd. But I suppose EVERY single Asian youth was wearing platforms and wide bottom trousers, weren't they - sigh.

It's a good job 12 years of my researching and collecting info on The Ruts has lead me to dig up this particular gem isn't it, because you weren't going to do it.

Generalising people on whatever basis is a dangerous business, I thought you would know better with all your years of experience.

> aah youth. They think they know everything but don't have the sense to
> realise that by being young they automatically know very little. Not
> because they're stupid (far from it) but because they're young.
> All the researching and discussing and theorising in the world will never
> take them back to the grim UK inner cities of the early 80's, when Asian
> youths tottered around on Spice Girl-style platforms and their
> wide-bottomed trousers flapped around in the wind.
> By then everyone , whether they were punk, post-punk shoe-gazers, mod,
> two-tone, new romantic, or heavy metal, had binned the wide-bottomed
> trouser and high shoes.
> But the youth of today don't believe me and they don't believe Morrissey,
> who was commenting on what was always a highly-amusing spectacle.
> The Asian youth of today in the UK are as cool and hip and trendy as their
> skinny white indie kid peers.
> Twenty-odd years ago it was a completely different story.
> But you had to be there.
 
Re: Keep waving the Union Jack

> Some of The Ruts earliest gigs were at local community centres in Southall
> which were populated with mainly Asian youths, they would play these many
> times over, Malcolm described these as being as vibrant and alive as any
> gigs they played with a majority White crowd. But I suppose EVERY single
> Asian youth was wearing platforms and wide bottom trousers, weren't they -
> sigh.

> It's a good job 12 years of my researching and collecting info on The Ruts
> has lead me to dig up this particular gem isn't it, because you weren't
> going to do it.

> Generalising people on whatever basis is a dangerous business, I thought
> you would know better with all your years of experience.

Once again, your rabid reliance on research (let's face it - it's all you've got) doesn't tell you the whole story.
Malcolm was an idealist who was prone to overstate how much Asian youth were into 'happening' things. They simply weren't.
In less than a generation, their younger siblings and children are indeed a cool and essential part of UK youth culture today.
What Morrissey has done with 'Bengali In Platforms' is record a wee bit of UK youth social history of the early eighties. If the hysterically pc youth of today don't believe him, then fine. But I'm here to tell you he was spot-on. As always.
The major cities of the UK (including Glasgow, which has never had a West Indian/ black population) in the late 70's / early 80's had a highly visible Asian populace.
As a wage-earning tradesman in those times who worked, drank, and gigged in a variety of places in the UK (including London) let me assure you that there were no Asian youths who who were 'on-the-ball', so to speak.
When The Ruts played in the local community hall in places like Southall, there was no doubt a big turn-out from the local youth. Who ,after all, went to the youth club every night and, unlike the dull youth of today, were energetic and full of life.
But I'm confident in stating that none of those youths went desperately looking for 'In A Rut' (as I did) after they heard it on Peelie's show. I'm also sure that none of them even listened to his radio show. And none of them would have dreamt of travelling even 20 miles to see The Ruts as I did.
If you put it on their doorstep, they'll be there.
Now stop annoying your old grandpa.

elp yourself to a Werther's Original on the way out. And take one for Wee Missie Curious. Both of you should know better than to doubt my razor-sharp memories of the time (no research required) and be grateful that I'm here.
OK. Off you go.
And no running!!
 
Re: Keep waving the Union Jack

So what you are saying is that NO Asians at all were into Punk, I personally know two, who also followed UK Ska, the 80s indie scene and Acid house from day 1, but I suppose they can't be into such happening things becuase they are Asian and they ALL wore platforms and wide bottom trousers.

Perhaps there was no visible presence of Asians involved in the punk scene, but lets face it do you think they would have been welcome at a Sham gig. This would have put of any Asian kids who were perhaps buying the records and listening to them at home, and also there is the cultural aspect where they may have come from strict homes and telling mummy and daddy that they were of out to see The Buzzcocks tonight wouldn't have gone down too well. Please see the wider picture rather than what you have just seen for yourself.

If you think 'Bengali In Platforms' is spot on you are sadly deluded. This is the lowest point in Moz' songwriting career. He got Asian Rut & National Front Disco spot on as in these he was telling a story, where as Bengali In Platforms is Moz speaking personally and without any responsibilty. You can't write about race in such a lazy throw away ditty as Moz does with this song. To write a song about race relations in a clear and concise manner you have to have walked the same streets as them and shared the same experiences, otherwise you end up like the sad old Tory deep in his country house smearing all Black and Asians with the same old tired stereotypes.

There may have been Asians wearing such outdated clothes in the early 80s, but to generalise and sterotype EVERY Asian youth in the same way comes straight out of the same mentality that see's all young black men as muggers and rapists. This is why the song is so offensive, however I can defend Moz here because I don't believe he would see this, he is probebly so detatched from the complex realities of multi-culturalism that he wouldn't see how this can be offensive. The image you have peddled is the same one that the music industry has peddled in ignoring Asian youth down the years and seeing them as irrelivant on the basis of tired old stereotypes, what truth exists in these generlisations and stereotypes DOES NOT apply to EVERY SINGLE asian kid.

> Once again, your rabid reliance on research (let's face it - it's all
> you've got) doesn't tell you the whole story.
> Malcolm was an idealist who was prone to overstate how much Asian youth
> were into 'happening' things. They simply weren't.
> In less than a generation, their younger siblings and children are indeed
> a cool and essential part of UK youth culture today.
> What Morrissey has done with 'Bengali In Platforms' is record a wee bit of
> UK youth social history of the early eighties. If the hysterically pc
> youth of today don't believe him, then fine. But I'm here to tell you he
> was spot-on. As always.
> The major cities of the UK (including Glasgow, which has never had a West
> Indian/ black population) in the late 70's / early 80's had a highly
> visible Asian populace.
> As a wage-earning tradesman in those times who worked, drank, and gigged
> in a variety of places in the UK (including London) let me assure you that
> there were no Asian youths who who were 'on-the-ball', so to speak.
> When The Ruts played in the local community hall in places like Southall,
> there was no doubt a big turn-out from the local youth. Who ,after all,
> went to the youth club every night and, unlike the dull youth of today,
> were energetic and full of life.
> But I'm confident in stating that none of those youths went desperately
> looking for 'In A Rut' (as I did) after they heard it on Peelie's show.
> I'm also sure that none of them even listened to his radio show. And none
> of them would have dreamt of travelling even 20 miles to see The Ruts as I
> did.
> If you put it on their doorstep, they'll be there.
> Now stop annoying your old grandpa.

> elp yourself to a Werther's Original on the way out. And take one for Wee
> Missie Curious. Both of you should know better than to doubt my
> razor-sharp memories of the time (no research required) and be grateful
> that I'm here.
> OK. Off you go.
> And no running!!
 
I have a question for Professor McCann!(non punk, 70's or 80's)

Both of you should know better than to doubt my
> razor-sharp memories of the time (no research required) and be grateful
> that I'm here.
> OK. Off you go.
> And no running!!
How's your 60's music knowledge? A lunch is riding on this with a guy who looks like he's in the Allman Brothers.
"So you want to be a rock n roll star". Is that about the Monkeys?
 
Re: Keep waving the Union Jack

With every confidence, I put it to you , young sir, that your two Asian friends were not of gig-going age from 1976 -1980. I reckon they were more able to get 'into' the genres you mentioned which came later.
I can well understand them being into "Acid House from day 1", as you put it.
I also took note that you didn't say they were into punk from day 1.

If you're going to persist with your 'Asian friends into punk' line, they better be over 40 years old. Because that is the age group I've been talking about all the way through this thread. From word 1.
As you are , what?... 27?, I'm sure I won't be alone in disbelieving you when you say you have two 40+ Asian friends who were into punk at some point before 1980.
As youths, THAT age group were NOT into punk.

Those who didn't care much for western practises wore normal, nondescript clothing - jackets, jumpers, shirts, kegs, shoes.
Those who tried something different got it horribly wrong. This is fact, not opinion.
Take that fact on board, absorb it, and live with it.

It's worth remembering that many of the now over-forty Asians here were not born here, but came over at a young age during the 60's. This was a strange place to them and they suffered atrocious racial abuse.
Their parents often spoke little or no English and did indeed tend to be very strict.
It was only later when younger and more outgoing UK-born kids came along, that they started to blend in, mix more, and get into 'yoof' stuff. I would put THAT age group as being mid 30's at the most, but with the majority still in their 20's.

I would also appreciate it (and be very surprised) if you can tell me where I said ALL Asian youths wore those ridiculously dated clothes.
When you do that (or apologise for putting words into people's mouths) I look forward to continuing with this lesson.I just hope all my other pupils apart from you are following this as well. And taking notes.

Ok . Have another Werther's (Jesus,do you never worry about your teeth??) and off you go.
And no running!!
 
Re: I have a question for Professor McCann!(non punk, 70's or 80's)

> Both of you should know better than to doubt my
> How's your 60's music knowledge? A lunch is riding on this with a guy who
> looks like he's in the Allman Brothers.
> "So you want to be a rock n roll star". Is that about the
> Monkeys?

I might be old, but I'm not THAT old. Oh alright, I am. But I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. ( I thought only Bluenose could do that to me).

Which "rock 'n' roll star" song are you talking about? The Oasis one?
 
Re: I have a question for Professor McCann!(non punk, 70's or 80's)

> I might be old, but I'm not THAT old. Oh alright, I am. But I have
> absolutely no idea what you're talking about. ( I thought only Bluenose
> could do that to me).

> Which "rock 'n' roll star" song are you talking about? The Oasis
> one?
No, I only know 1 song by Oasis and it's not that one. I was referring to your musical knowledge, not your age.
The song I'm thinking of is by the Byrds.
http://www.lyon.edu/webdata/users/kadler/public_html/rmcguinn/rock1.wav
so you want to be a rock and roll star.
 
Re: Keep waving the Union Jack

I can't believe you can be so arrogant as to question me on people I know, if you think I am justifying anything to you, you've got to be kidding. But for the record they didn't go to any gigs untill the early 80s as far as I'm aware and are 47 and 49 respectively.

Just admit you dropped a bollock by generalising in your original post, which is what I have a problem with, the fact that you can say NO asians were into happening things. I think you will find that myself and the people I know have a hell of a lot more first hand experience of race relations in this country than you ever will while you talk about what you have observed over the years. Yes there is a lot of truth in what you say, but please don't tell us that there is not another side to the points you are putting accross.

In the grand scheme of life what clothes people wear, what haircut you've got and what music you listen to is irrelivant.

> With every confidence, I put it to you , young sir, that your two Asian
> friends were not of gig-going age from 1976 -1980. I reckon they were more
> able to get 'into' the genres you mentioned which came later.
> I can well understand them being into "Acid House from day 1",
> as you put it.
> I also took note that you didn't say they were into punk from day 1.

> If you're going to persist with your 'Asian friends into punk' line, they
> better be over 40 years old. Because that is the age group I've been
> talking about all the way through this thread. From word 1.
> As you are , what?... 27?, I'm sure I won't be alone in disbelieving you
> when you say you have two 40+ Asian friends who were into punk at some
> point before 1980.
> As youths, THAT age group were NOT into punk.

> Those who didn't care much for western practises wore normal, nondescript
> clothing - jackets, jumpers, shirts, kegs, shoes.
> Those who tried something different got it horribly wrong. This is fact,
> not opinion.
> Take that fact on board, absorb it, and live with it.

> It's worth remembering that many of the now over-forty Asians here were
> not born here, but came over at a young age during the 60's. This was a
> strange place to them and they suffered atrocious racial abuse.
> Their parents often spoke little or no English and did indeed tend to be
> very strict.
> It was only later when younger and more outgoing UK-born kids came along,
> that they started to blend in, mix more, and get into 'yoof' stuff. I
> would put THAT age group as being mid 30's at the most, but with the
> majority still in their 20's.

> I would also appreciate it (and be very surprised) if you can tell me
> where I said ALL Asian youths wore those ridiculously dated clothes.
> When you do that (or apologise for putting words into people's mouths) I
> look forward to continuing with this lesson.I just hope all my other
> pupils apart from you are following this as well. And taking notes.

> Ok . Have another Werther's (Jesus,do you never worry about your teeth??)
> and off you go.
> And no running!!
 
Re: I have a question for Professor McCann!(non punk, 70's or 80's)

> No, I only know 1 song by Oasis and it's not that one. I was referring to
> your musical knowledge, not your age.

I know. It doesn't matter. I like being old.

> The song I'm thinking of is by the Byrds.
> http://www.lyon.edu/webdata/users/kadler/public_html/rmcguinn/rock1.wav
> so you want to be a rock and roll star.

Aye, I think I know the one you mean but, apart from what I belatedly learned about The Velvets, the sixties just isn't my scene man.
Might be worth finding out when the song was written, then finding out when The Monkees were formed. Unless I'm mistaken, The Byrds pre-date them by two or three years.
If it was written in pre-Monkees days, then it obviously wasn't about them. If it wasn't, then.......okay, what I'm trying to say is... I don't f***in know!!
 
Re: I have a question for Professor McCann!(non punk, 70's or 80's)

oh, by the way, have a good christmas. And did Mr.Vedder receive a birthday card yesterday from a certain admirer in Joyzee?
 
Re: Keep waving the Union Jack

Pishing my pants!!!
Werther's Originals don't grow on trees, y'know, and I simply cannae afford to pay the laundry bill for my soaked pants and longjohns.
So I'm sending it to you.

You really expect your salty old inner-city streetdog grandpa to believe that story about your imaginery friends?? Get a grip.
I set the over-40 criteria, and you walk right into it, saying they're 47 and 49. As far as you're aware. What, don't you know for sure?
You're 27 with two Asian friends who were into punk and who are 20+ years older than you. One born in 1954 and the other in 1956. The older one's first gig was when he was nearly thirty.
And he got into Acid House (from day 1) when he was what...35??
As my north american readers might say.....GET OUTTA HERE!!!!

Gimme the email addresses of these two jokers and I'll deal with them when I'm finished with you. But first of all , let me guess........

[email protected]............
[email protected]......

Aye, I thought so. They don't call me 'Mystic McCann' for nothing.

And you're STILL insisting I generalised. This isn't the first time you've misread my posts either. I remember a similar situation not so long ago when both yourself and Ruffian managed to misread the same post! That takes some doing!!
I think you both get yourselves into such an adrenalin-filled frenzy that you can't see straight. Either that or your individual schools have a lot to answer for when it comes to their teaching methods.
Don't put your own words into other people's posts. It undermines the whole purpose of discussion and correspondence.

If I'd written 'Bengali In Platforms', I'd have called it "Bengali in platforms, brightly-coloured flapping pants, and brightly-patterned large-collared shirt."
And in parenthesis I'd have put "(who was one of thousands who inexplicably wore this stuff must to the puzzled bemusement of onlookers. This is my sypathetic advice to him.)"

Okay, so it's a long title for an album track.

But it would be one way of halting the horrified reaction of fanatical, pc-obsessed kids who listened to it years later, completely and utterly unaware of this curious episode in UK youth culture.

And that's where your problem lies.
You CAN'T STAND the idea of me telling you something that you can't find in your books.
It was a most peculiar and disastrous fashion faux pas that deserves to be recorded just as much as other youth fashions since the 1950's have been.

And by the way, outdoors is the place to be for learning things that will stand you in good stead for later life.
Indoors is for historical fact (and fiction) that you can pump out machine-gun style in a manner that impresses nobody.
Me? Apart from sleeping and eating slices of bread, I've been outdoors for 40 years.
I know far too much for you to cope with. You're being extremely naive in even trying.
Ok, sonny, off you go.
And no running!! Ruffian fell and skinned his knees last week. I can still taste the TCP in everything I eat.

> I can't believe you can be so arrogant as to question me on people I know,
> if you think I am justifying anything to you, you've got to be kidding.
> But for the record they didn't go to any gigs untill the early 80s as far
> as I'm aware and are 47 and 49 respectively.

> Just admit you dropped a bollock by generalising in your original post,
> which is what I have a problem with, the fact that you can say NO asians
> were into happening things. I think you will find that myself and the
> people I know have a hell of a lot more first hand experience of race
> relations in this country than you ever will while you talk about what you
> have observed over the years. Yes there is a lot of truth in what you say,
> but please don't tell us that there is not another side to the points you
> are putting accross.

> In the grand scheme of life what clothes people wear, what haircut you've
> got and what music you listen to is irrelivant.
 
Re: Keep waving the Union Jack

Imaginary friends, hmmmmmm I never said they were friends, they are both relatives of mine. I wasn't sure on when they first started going to gigs, I know they seen The Specials, The Beat etc in their hey day, but no punk bands, although they bought some of the records. And they were both into reggae long before The Clash introduced it to the white kids.

Growing up in a mixed raced family I could tell you things that would throw all of your pre-conceived ideas about race out of the window. Can you now see why I have to take issue with you on this one.

To quote Phil Lynott, 'I tell no lies'.

> Pishing my pants!!!
> Werther's Originals don't grow on trees, y'know, and I simply cannae
> afford to pay the laundry bill for my soaked pants and longjohns.
> So I'm sending it to you.

> You really expect your salty old inner-city streetdog grandpa to believe
> that story about your imaginery friends?? Get a grip.
> I set the over-40 criteria, and you walk right into it, saying they're 47
> and 49. As far as you're aware. What, don't you know for sure?
> You're 27 with two Asian friends who were into punk and who are 20+ years
> older than you. One born in 1954 and the other in 1956. The older one's
> first gig was when he was nearly thirty.
> And he got into Acid House (from day 1) when he was what...35??
> As my north american readers might say.....GET OUTTA HERE!!!!

> Gimme the email addresses of these two jokers and I'll deal with them when
> I'm finished with you. But first of all , let me guess........

> [email protected] ............
> [email protected] ......

> Aye, I thought so. They don't call me 'Mystic McCann' for nothing.

> And you're STILL insisting I generalised. This isn't the first time you've
> misread my posts either. I remember a similar situation not so long ago
> when both yourself and Ruffian managed to misread the same post! That
> takes some doing!!
> I think you both get yourselves into such an adrenalin-filled frenzy that
> you can't see straight. Either that or your individual schools have a lot
> to answer for when it comes to their teaching methods.
> Don't put your own words into other people's posts. It undermines the
> whole purpose of discussion and correspondence.

> If I'd written 'Bengali In Platforms', I'd have called it "Bengali in
> platforms, brightly-coloured flapping pants, and brightly-patterned
> large-collared shirt."
> And in parenthesis I'd have put "(who was one of thousands who
> inexplicably wore this stuff must to the puzzled bemusement of onlookers.
> This is my sypathetic advice to him.)"

> Okay, so it's a long title for an album track.

> But it would be one way of halting the horrified reaction of fanatical,
> pc-obsessed kids who listened to it years later, completely and utterly
> unaware of this curious episode in UK youth culture.

> And that's where your problem lies.
> You CAN'T STAND the idea of me telling you something that you can't find
> in your books.
> It was a most peculiar and disastrous fashion faux pas that deserves to be
> recorded just as much as other youth fashions since the 1950's have been.

> And by the way, outdoors is the place to be for learning things that will
> stand you in good stead for later life.
> Indoors is for historical fact (and fiction) that you can pump out
> machine-gun style in a manner that impresses nobody.
> Me? Apart from sleeping and eating slices of bread, I've been outdoors for
> 40 years.
> I know far too much for you to cope with. You're being extremely naive in
> even trying.
> Ok, sonny, off you go.
> And no running!! Ruffian fell and skinned his knees last week. I can still
> taste the TCP in everything I eat.
 
Re: Keep waving the Union Jack

> Imaginary friends, hmmmmmm I never said they were friends, they are both
> relatives of mine. I wasn't sure on when they first started going to gigs,
> I know they seen The Specials, The Beat etc in their hey day, but no punk
> bands, although they bought some of the records. And they were both into
> reggae long before The Clash introduced it to the white kids.

> Growing up in a mixed raced family I could tell you things that would
> throw all of your pre-conceived ideas about race out of the window. Can
> you now see why I have to take issue with you on this one.

> To quote Phil Lynott, 'I tell no lies'.

Actually speaking of Phil Lynott, you can scrub the bit where I said they started going to gigs in the early 80s, because I know they seen Thin Lizzy a few times.
 
Re: I have a question for Professor McCann! Someone's in big trouble

> oh, by the way, have a good christmas. And did Mr.Vedder receive a
> birthday card yesterday from a certain admirer in Joyzee?
HaHA, That's where he was. Thanks for telling me(how did you know that?), he is in SOOOO much trouble for lying to me. He told me he was at the mall but I have a sneaky suspicion he really went to his friends house so he could wear his flannel shirt, ripped jeans, singing Jeremy, doing that rediculous dance they do.
 
Re: I have a question for Professor McCann! Someone's in big trouble

> HaHA, That's where he was. Thanks for telling me(how did you know that?),

Because I know everything, remember?

Oh alright then, I read it in a newspaper's 'today's birthdays' list. Only I read it a day late. Who reads yesterday's papers?? I DO!!!

> he is in SOOOO much trouble for lying to me. He told me he was at the mall
> but I have a sneaky suspicion he really went to his friends house so he
> could wear his flannel shirt, ripped jeans, singing Jeremy, doing that
> rediculous dance they do.

Aye, that's what he was doing alright. They have to be very discreet, y'know. Even to the extent of lying to their nearest and dearest. There's a certain stigma attached to it. And rightly so.
If I was you, I'd thrash him to within an inch of his life with a wet oven glove.
 
Re: Keep waving the Union Jack

Well, especially at this time of year, I can understand you saying that they're relatives as opposed to friends.
And STILL you have this thing where you think I have "pre-conceived ideas about race". Where did you get that from?? Again, a case of grossly misreading my posts.
This is supposed to be all about 'Bengali In Platforms'. Morrissey is a man of few words who likes to leave things hanging in the air, so to speak.
I told you in my last post what the full (albeit very long) title of the song should have been to avoid controversy.
But that's not Moz's way.

Since teenagers and youths were 'invented' in the 1950's, their fashions have been documented almost as much as their music. There are acres of print on it.
I'm no reader of youth culture (the occasional feature in the occasional magazine), but this wee episode seems to have gone completely unrecorded.
Trust Moz to touch on something that nobody else has ever mentioned. That's why we love him, remember?

His views on the subject are also much more sympathetic than those of average UK youths who were around at the time. Like me and my raggle-taggle bunch of gnarled inner-city Punk Wars veterans.
Coming from our background, believe me, we were EXTREMELY left-wing. No Tory MP's in our areas. But we did have a bemused laugh at the sheer surreal nature of it all.
It really was surreal.
Those Asian kids at the time are now in their mid-forties. Most, if not all, weren't born here, if you consider their d.o.b's to be the late 50's up to 1960.
B.I.P is simply a track in the middle of an album that touched upon a piece of social history that the pc brigade can't come to terms with, because they CAN'T PICTURE THE SCENE of what Moz is singing about. Which, because they're young, is understandable.
But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Because it did. I vividly remember it.
Ask your relatives. If they exist and they're honest and they're of that age-group, they'll tell you.

> Imaginary friends, hmmmmmm I never said they were friends, they are both
> relatives of mine. I wasn't sure on when they first started going to gigs,
> I know they seen The Specials, The Beat etc in their hey day, but no punk
> bands, although they bought some of the records. And they were both into
> reggae long before The Clash introduced it to the white kids.

> Growing up in a mixed raced family I could tell you things that would
> throw all of your pre-conceived ideas about race out of the window. Can
> you now see why I have to take issue with you on this one.

> To quote Phil Lynott, 'I tell no lies'.
 
Re: Keep waving the Union Jack

Fair enough, but did the inner city areas that you grew up in have an equal measure of white, black and Asian people, like the area of Nottingham where I grew up, which before it became the gun tooting rough house it has been for a decade or more was a really cool place. Areas like these are what makes some parts of the Midlands very unique to anywhere else. In most parts of the north of England White and Asian kids still glare at eachother in bewilderment, where as where I grew up the influence of Black culture brought most people together. It was all rooted in black culture, but a bit of what was current at the time would end up in the mix, I distinctly remember hearing Ian Dury & The Blockheads, Tom Robinson, and the 2 tone stuff in the houses I dropped in and out of long before I checked that music out for myself.

I'm not entirely dissagreeing with you, just that myself and the people I know have a different experience to yourself. I was a bit wound up before so soz if I was putting words in your mouth so to speak. Hope you had a good Xmas.

> Well, especially at this time of year, I can understand you saying that
> they're relatives as opposed to friends.
> And STILL you have this thing where you think I have "pre-conceived
> ideas about race". Where did you get that from?? Again, a case of
> grossly misreading my posts.
> This is supposed to be all about 'Bengali In Platforms'. Morrissey is a
> man of few words who likes to leave things hanging in the air, so to
> speak.
> I told you in my last post what the full (albeit very long) title of the
> song should have been to avoid controversy.
> But that's not Moz's way.

> Since teenagers and youths were 'invented' in the 1950's, their fashions
> have been documented almost as much as their music. There are acres of
> print on it.
> I'm no reader of youth culture (the occasional feature in the occasional
> magazine), but this wee episode seems to have gone completely unrecorded.
> Trust Moz to touch on something that nobody else has ever mentioned.
> That's why we love him, remember?

> His views on the subject are also much more sympathetic than those of
> average UK youths who were around at the time. Like me and my
> raggle-taggle bunch of gnarled inner-city Punk Wars veterans.
> Coming from our background, believe me, we were EXTREMELY left-wing. No
> Tory MP's in our areas. But we did have a bemused laugh at the sheer
> surreal nature of it all.
> It really was surreal.
> Those Asian kids at the time are now in their mid-forties. Most, if not
> all, weren't born here, if you consider their d.o.b's to be the late 50's
> up to 1960.
> B.I.P is simply a track in the middle of an album that touched upon a
> piece of social history that the pc brigade can't come to terms with,
> because they CAN'T PICTURE THE SCENE of what Moz is singing about. Which,
> because they're young, is understandable.
> But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Because it did. I vividly remember
> it.
> Ask your relatives. If they exist and they're honest and they're of that
> age-group, they'll tell you.
 
Re: I have a question for Professor McCann! Someone's in big trouble

> Because I know everything, remember?
Even useless information?
> Oh alright then, I read it in a newspaper's 'today's birthdays' list. Only
> I read it a day late. Who reads yesterday's papers?? I DO!!!
OK, I don't care if you were reading last weeks paper, for a second,... I I I thought you were becoming one of THEM!
> Aye, that's what he was doing alright. They have to be very discreet,
> y'know. Even to the extent of lying to their nearest and dearest.
Nearest and dearest? OH You mean our dog? I'm sure she was in on it. If she speaks she has to give up the sofa.
>There's a certain stigma attached to it. And rightly so.
Very wise words, well beyond your years, couldn't agree with you more.
> If I was you, I'd thrash him to within an inch of his life with a wet oven
> glove.
He's going to get it allright. I hope it's worth him jumping around like an idiot, pretending he's from Seattle. Your so good with your Noni, she's so lucky to have you. I was thinking rolling pin but I'll take your advice and try the oven Mitt just this once. Tis the season.
 
Re: Keep waving the Union Jack

Well, Glasgow has a massive Asian population. Even when I was a lad it was sizeable and growing.
But the whole thing of Asian immigration in large numbers was completely new, and we didn't mix. These things take time, and we were there at the beginning of it. It was a strange new development for all concerned.

In those days, the Asians were more of an isolated community. I personally believe they must have been pretty scared and I can't blame them.
It can't have been easy for those who are around my age arriving in a place like Glasgow. I mean, talk about a culture shock!! It doesn't really get more extreme than that.
It was a hard-drinking, heavily-industrialised, violent (normally caused by Christian sectarian differences, and the ubiquitous gangs of knife and razor- wielding 'neds' from all areas), dark grey, damp, grimy hole. It's worth remembering that Glasgow, as recently as the 1950's, was called 'The Engine-room of the Empire'.
Not exactly what the new arrivals were used to.

As I've mentioned in other threads from time to time, post-industrial, racially-mixed Britain is a completely different country. And it's all happened in less than a generation. The changes have been astonishing.

That's what a lot of my younger readers have trouble understanding. They can read about it and listen to stories and watch tv documentaries and suchlike, but it's not the same as living all the way through it as an adult.

'BIP' is about Asian guys of mine and Moz's age who stuck together (for safety reasons), kept themselves to themselves, and weren't 'into' the things we were into.
Then, when some of them made a choice of western-style fashion, they got it horribly wrong.
But we've been through all that.

Anyway, that may not have been the experiences of the Asian immigrants in Midlands towns. But I'm still pretty sure the ones who arrived there during the 60's and 70's didn't have it much easier.
I'm guessing your experiences are from a wee bit later than that and mostly with kids who were born here.
That's a different (and happier) story.
To sum up, the song is about another time. And probably another, more northern place from what you're familiar with.
It's also over-analysed, and has attracted waaaaaaaay more theorising and speculation than it frankly merits. A lot of it from....erm....me.
But that's only to counteract the generally-accepted theories which, in my opinion, are way off the mark.
Take it easy, young 'un.

> Fair enough, but did the inner city areas that you grew up in have an
> equal measure of white, black and Asian people, like the area of
> Nottingham where I grew up, which before it became the gun tooting rough
> house it has been for a decade or more was a really cool place. Areas like
> these are what makes some parts of the Midlands very unique to anywhere
> else. In most parts of the north of England White and Asian kids still
> glare at eachother in bewilderment, where as where I grew up the influence
> of Black culture brought most people together. It was all rooted in black
> culture, but a bit of what was current at the time would end up in the
> mix, I distinctly remember hearing Ian Dury & The Blockheads, Tom
> Robinson, and the 2 tone stuff in the houses I dropped in and out of long
> before I checked that music out for myself.

> I'm not entirely dissagreeing with you, just that myself and the people I
> know have a different experience to yourself. I was a bit wound up before
> so soz if I was putting words in your mouth so to speak. Hope you had a
> good Xmas.
 
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