what's the deal with "the teachers are afraid of the pupils"?

[Belligerent Ghoul]

I love Southpaw Grammar, but this song nearly ruins it for me.

It sounds terrible, like a bad movie soundtrack. That da-da (up), da-da (down) music. Good grief, what did Charlie Brown say when Lucy took the football away as he was about to kick it?

"Teachers" is not a worthy follow up to "The Headmaster Ritual" which it is purported to be. The music is nowhere near as good, and the lyrics look like they taken from an 8 year old.

I also understand that after Vauxhall did not break him BIG in the USA (think REM, "Out of Time" big), Southpaw Grammar was a way of Moz "thumbing his finger at the music industry," and 10-11 minutes songs were part of that.

But, where "Southpaw," the light heavy weight weighs in at 10:03, and floats like a butterfly & stings like a bee, "Teachers," tips the scales at 11:15, and goes down for the count before the first 60 seconds of Round 1.

What's the story evening glories?

[davidt]

> But, where "Southpaw," the light heavy weight weighs in at
> 10:03, and floats like a butterfly & stings like a bee,
> "Teachers," tips the scales at 11:15, and goes down for the
> count before the first 60 seconds of Round 1.

Wow, those songs are almost as long as the messages you leave on my answering machine.

[Belligerent Ghoul]

LOL! David.

I like you.

[Bobmozza]

Hmmm, it's a difficult one. I think this is Morrissey's way of proving he isn't some whiney teen-obsessed failure-to-be-a-proper-adult. Hence the teachers are the opressed ones and the balance has been tipped too far in favour of the pupils.

I don't know what it's like in America but in the UK this is pretty much how it is in secondary schools (the equivalent of your high schools). Teachers have very little power and hence their 'students' frequently ride roughshod, and should any of them threaten any kind of action against the little shits, that's when their neanderthal parents and older brothers come into the fray. Hence:

"Say the wrong word to our children, and we'll have you, oh yes we'll have you."

I went to a grammar school myself, so I can't say I have first hand knowledge of how it is in standard comprehensives and secondary moderns. But I have friends who went to them, and have in the past known young teachers and this is apparently what its like.

The assertion that this song has anything to do with "The Headmaster Ritual" is a journalistic creation, invented by muso journos at the time of the album's release to put it into context. Yes they are related in theme (school) but the fact is even when Moz wrote "The Headmaster Ritual" he was talking about the past mostly. In 1985 the sadism might have remained in vocal spirit still, (a million people who weren't good at 'Games' at school will attest to this) but the cane had been banned the year previously I believe.

As for the music, it is over the top and leaden, to be sure but it's the opener to the album and Moz loves an over the top entrance as we all know. Plus, like you say there was the poke in the eye for the whole Britpop "ooh aint 3 minutes of chirpy loveable cockney humour grate!" thing.* But it does rock out quite well. Lyrically it's a bit simple as well, yeah I agree with you. But I think that is to hammer home the intensity of the message.

Sadly perhaps, of course, most of us are not teachers and hence we cannot have any sort of empathy. In this way then, it fits in the album perfectly, as it's an album of stories. None of it seems to relate to Moz in any way shape or form which is what makes it unique and why so many Morrissey fans don't like it I think. Even the less allegorical "The Operation" and "Do you best and don't worry" are the bones of a story without a plot.

Like I've said before, it's a concept album, it's even produced in a prog type way and hence it was basically 8 years ahead of its time. Just like "Your Arsenal" pointed towards britpop 2/3 years before it happened.

That is my two-penneth. Hope I aint dribbled on too much. It's just my opinion, so don't get offended or get your dictionaries out and point out to point out the inaccuracy of my spelling....

bobmozza

*It just occured to me, "Dagenham Dave" may well be a direct satire of Britpop.

> I love Southpaw Grammar, but this song nearly ruins it for me.

> It sounds terrible, like a bad movie soundtrack. That da-da (up), da-da
> (down) music. Good grief, what did Charlie Brown say when Lucy took the
> football away as he was about to kick it?

> "Teachers" is not a worthy follow up to "The Headmaster
> Ritual" which it is purported to be. The music is nowhere near as
> good, and the lyrics look like they taken from an 8 year old.

> I also understand that after Vauxhall did not break him BIG in the USA
> (think REM, "Out of Time" big), Southpaw Grammar was a way of
> Moz "thumbing his finger at the music industry," and 10-11
> minutes songs were part of that.

> But, where "Southpaw," the light heavy weight weighs in at
> 10:03, and floats like a butterfly & stings like a bee,
> "Teachers," tips the scales at 11:15, and goes down for the
> count before the first 60 seconds of Round 1.

> What's the story evening glories?

[A Teacher]

That track saved my life at a time I was ready to give up on teaching. I listened to it every morning.
Talk about empowerment! That was the song that saved my life.

[mozzalyte]

[Chill]

I like it. It sounds so ominous and weirdly baroque. Plus it's the sequel to "The Headmaster Ritual," which is one of the rockingest Smiths songs ever. I understand why people don't like it, but I think it's an interesting foray into prog rock.

[suzanne]

> Wow, those songs are almost as long as the messages you leave on my
> answering machine.

maybe we can get boz to write a score for them.

[Jo]

Actually, I love "the teachers are afraid of the pupils", while I really dislike "southpaw".

To me, "The teachers are afraid of the pupils" is similar to "ambitious outsiders" (which I also love) in it's ominous tone and cautionary lyrics. And I love the dramatic use of strings in both songs as well.

[Left Upper Cut]

She/he just dissed Southpaw.

Thanks Pimpy.

[Harsh Truth]

> Actually, I love "the teachers are afraid of the pupils", while
> I really dislike "southpaw".

I know I'm in the minority, but I think "Southpaw Grammar" is quite good. What it may lack lyrically, it makes up for musically. This is the one album I can play for most of of my non-Moz-fan friends and have them say "this is ok."

I've made many anti "Boy Racer" posts in the past, but its really not a bad song.........just overplayed in concert.

Every other song is good-to-very-good. Nothing "fantastic"..........but nothing "bad" either.

Just my opinion.

[Jo]

I don't think that "Southpaw Grammar" is a bad album, either. I think it is quite good.

It's just that of all the tracks on it, "Southpaw" is my least favourite, whereas I happen to really like "the teachers are afraid of the students".

[Rex Valentino]

[Belligerent Ghoul]

[Dirk McNasty]

> I also understand that after Vauxhall did not break him BIG in the USA
> (think REM, "Out of Time" big), Southpaw Grammar was a way of
> Moz "thumbing his finger at the music industry," and 10-11
> minutes songs were part of that.

That's absolutely right, I agree with you there. I really really rate the song, however, especially live -- although I can see why it might not be everybody's cup of tea. Musically it borrows heavily from Shostakovich's 5th Symphony (so blame him) which I think Moz may have played during one of his intro/outro gig tapes around 1994. Personally, I think Moz is adopting a persona here and using the subject matter as a metaphor for his relationship with the music press and/or the fans at the time. Circa Britpop, he was clearly the "teacher" of this movement, but of course nobody was listening to him at the time because he was percieved as ebing out of vogue, and he was being outdone by bands like Echobelly (!) who were massive fans of his. Also, it's a response to the NME racism thing (see also Reader Meet Author) which was in the air at the time --his "spirit's on trial" because of these accusations. Although he states "to be finished would be a relief" (refering to his pop career) he obviously doesn't mean it! The point he's making is he's not finished as a pop icon... not yet. Apparently, Moz was quite depressed around this period... and I think this song is clear evidence of that!

[Jo]

[Tommy Sermanni]

> That's absolutely right, I agree with you there. I really really rate the
> song, however, especially live -- although I can see why it might not be
> everybody's cup of tea. Musically it borrows heavily from Shostakovich's
> 5th Symphony (so blame him) which I think Moz may have played during one
> of his intro/outro gig tapes around 1994. Personally, I think Moz is
> adopting a persona here and using the subject matter as a metaphor for his
> relationship with the music press and/or the fans at the time. Circa
> Britpop, he was clearly the "teacher" of this movement, but of
> course nobody was listening to him at the time because he was percieved as
> ebing out of vogue, and he was being outdone by bands like Echobelly (!)
> who were massive fans of his. Also, it's a response to the NME racism
> thing (see also Reader Meet Author) which was in the air at the time --his
> "spirit's on trial" because of these accusations. Although he
> states "to be finished would be a relief" (refering to his pop
> career) he obviously doesn't mean it! The point he's making is he's not
> finished as a pop icon... not yet. Apparently, Moz was quite depressed
> around this period... and I think this song is clear evidence of that!

It's a brilliant song and as you say it really comes to the fore in the live arena.

It's a sad indictement of the average Moz fan that when he tries to move forward musically and lyrically there are so many howls of protest by people who still see Viva Hate as the pinacle of his solo career.It wasn't.

"Teachers" was a brave move on what was undoubtably a brilliant album.

[Harsh Truth]

[Rex Valentino]

[Mr.Improper PIMP that is pissed at JO]

First,off,anyone who "dislikes" southpaw is a hinghang. Its a wonderful album,its not a "compilation",its a wonderful album. Im starting to lose more and more respect for this "jo" person everytime he/she opens their piehole. if you dont like this album,or any,why do you come here???? and why do you hang around????? You have no fucking taste in morrissey and it is now a fact that : you dont know shit about anything.You're a useless fuckwit who's consistantly bashed all his good work,and summed up his best as "compilations"... How about " you are a fuckin "ass clown"????? Nuff said.