"The Slave Trade, The Holocaust, The Meat Industry" - is THAT the triangle???

[Clive Weekes]

I remember the London Forum in 1999, and one night Morrissey said (twice, and in this order): "the slave trade, the holocaust, the meat industry", whilst drawing an imaginary (and fairly large) triangle with his right hand.

as a lifelong Morrissey fan, I will always defend him. still, it can be misinterpreted and downright shocking. I am black myself, and my dad (also black) was horrified to be likened to a chicken - or goose, ox, whatever.
similarly, I am sure a lot of Gays/Romas/Jews would take offence.

too clever by half maybe, Morrissey?

I respect the fact that he feels so strongly about animals, but surely there is room for misrepresentation...?

Clive Weekes.

[A.C.]

Interesting point, I've no idea if that's what the triangle represents, but it sounds more likey than that he's a lesbian! (Or maybe not, Morrissey is probably the only man in the world who could be suspected of being a lesbian.)

I'm sure he meant no offense to you or anyone else, I think he was trying to make people understand the seriousness of the slaughter of the animals and see it in a new light by putting it in a context of other evil, horrible things that people allowed to go on for ages or turned a blind eye to. Finally we put a stop to those things and now they are considered as horrific, barbaric, uncivilised, embarrassing parts of out history, people wonder how we could have let it go on for so long. And I think Morrissey is trying to make us look at eating animals like that, and hoping that one day we will look back on it with the same horror and revulsion at our own actions or inaction which we feel in regard to the holocaust and slave trade.

The similarity between the three is not that a black person or a jewish person is on the same level as a chicken, but that people allow terrible suffering to befall others (human or animal) because it's convenient, or easier, or just because it suits them.

[GenderNectar]

Very well said AC. I completely agree.

[Fox in the Snow]

> Very well said AC. I completely agree.
Hi, Tara.

First, I had read your "long" message and already visited your new website Black Winged Roses, and I wish you folks well: as a very young website you are still getting aboard new correspondents, and you are "underpopulated", but I'm sure more and more peoples would come with time, after all, with Dent closure many Toriphiles are in search of a new forum...

I got registered under FoxInTheSnow... Now there is no Tori news yet, "all quiet on Western Front", but when she will launch her touring and will release a new album, I would start writing to your site folks, discussing album and staff! Thanks for those links, again!

Yes, now I live at San Diego, California... Now it is a recession in California, also peoples are antsy over controversial war with Iraq... On the other hand, the mere fact of being here makes me happy in a way, California is fun... especially when I'm driving with my buddies 2 hours to LA and indulge at clubbing and just hangin' round Hollywood and people-watchin'...

Well, Tara, about our previous argument, if you noticed, I never said that Animal Rights are not important... After all, I myself started talking about barbaric "rooster fights" at Asia... One also could criticize Spaniards for Korrida (spelling?) bull-killing etc... I was just wondering why Morrissey avoids now all human-related social injustice causes ALTOGETHER? He used to be against English monarchy and against Catholics being descriminated by Unionists at Northern Ireland, he used to be anti-War at his Smiths days, he even got arrested by British police for his pro-IRA anti-queen statements at interview (was it at 1987?)... Yet nowadays he avoids any "human" issues at all... OK, Tara, your statement "one cause at a time" makes sense, however... then I could ask Mozzer a question: "when your time for human causes would come, finally???"

Also, Tara, think carefully and logically about last statement, which equalizes slave-holders, Jew-killing/Gipsy-killing/Gay-killing SS Nazis and modern-day meat industry... Sorry, IMHO, it is a very childish statement, and I'm saying it mildly... Assuming, that modern day meat industry uses un-human methods to kill animals, let's fight meat-producers and force them to device painless and quick ways to kill animals... However, I doubt that it is realistic to shut meat consumption down and force US population to be vegetarians... Also, if all would become veggies, cow population and chicken population and turkey population in Western world would be almost extinct... except a few thousand pet turkeys and pet pigs etc... The same way, as one can assume, that USA/Canada horse population 100 years ago was hundred-fold bigger then horse population now... (relatively few very rich peoples with private racing horses or pet horses!) If I would be a horse I would prefer to be exploited by some Amish dude in funny Black hat but to be alive and fed over being extinct!!!

Also, if say Tori Amos eats seafood (as EP Hey Jupiter shows), does this fact makes her morally equal to slave holder or SS officer? I hope not...

Cheers, Tara, and good luck with everything...
The threads where everybody agrees with everybody would be very boring, right?

David

[GenderNectar]

Hey there! How are you?

Actually, I really love the way the forum is now. I definitely wouldn't be there if it were anything like the Dent. That place is scary. We're all really close over at BWR. It's just a fun place to go. There are just over a hundred members signed up.
Speaking of scary -- Toriamos.com There are some real wackjobs over there!! Having a conversation is like ramming yourself into a brick wall repeatedly.
I spent half of last night "arguing" with one of the crazies over there. It's really quite amusing. I post a pic of something and now it's turned into a 4 page thread! Eek.

Have you seen the new Tori video yet? If not, go to collectingbees.com You can download it there. I'm getting the impression that the same person that does Tool's videos have also been collaborating with Tori. It's very messed up.

Ahh..so you're a California boy eh? I have a couple of friends out there. One lives in San Rafael and the other is in Covina. Are you close to them at all?
I'm hoping (emphasize the word "hoping") to fly out to L.A for the Moz convention in May. I've never been to one and I'd really love to go. My boyfriend and I are suppose to be taking a trip to Greece in July so money may be a little tight. Who knows.

Now, regarding the animal rights issue -- I admit I took some of your words out of context. My appologies. When I was agreeing about this thread -- I was agreeing about the fact that Morrissey didn't mean any harm by it and that he's just trying to bring to light the issues of animal slaughter, etc. I've never been one to judge someone for their beliefs. If you want to eat meat then all the power to you. For me, it's a purely personal decission. I surely don't believe that people who eat meat have less morals than I do. Far from it. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Anyway -- I'd better get back to work here. LOL It's 10:20 am and I've done absolutely NOTHING!! haha I'm such a diligent worker.

Hope to chat with you again soon David. Have a great day!

Tara