Morrissey not vegan?

[Detritus]

I'm convinced some of the people in this thread would criticizing Morrissey up and down regardless of his position on animal rights or any number of other subjects, and the "flesh phobia" theory is truly bizarre, but it makes sense to me that Morrissey catches so much heat for not being vegan.

When someone takes a hardline stance on an issue, as Morrissey has with animal rights, they place themselves in treacherous ground where there is little room to err. For someone to assume a sanctimonious attitude to the degree that an inordinate amount of time and energy is dedicated to moralizing and policing the behaviors of others (in Morrissey's case, enforcing dietary restrictions on his band, collaborators, and those who share his environment in professional situations) according to a particular ideology without also adhering to that ideology themselves to the fullest possible and reasonable extent seems like an egregious hypocrisy. Obviously, perfection is an impossible ideal and to expect it from Morrissey or anyone else is unfair and unrealistic, but the more uncompromising and aggressive someone is in their ideology, the easier it becomes for their critics to zero in on their hypocrisies and inconsistencies. Considering how vocal Morrissey has been about animal rights for so many years---often more so than many of his peers---it isn't that outrageous that he's criticized for not being vegan while other vegetarian activists who are less dogmatic might fly under the radar.

 

[e1094]

When someone takes a hardline stance on an issue, as Morrissey has with animal rights, they place themselves in treacherous ground where there is little room to err. For someone to assume a sanctimonious attitude to the degree that an inordinate amount of time and energy is dedicated to moralizing and policing the behaviors of others (in Morrissey's case, enforcing dietary restrictions on his band, collaborators, and those who share his environment in professional situations) according to a particular ideology without also adhering to that ideology themselves to the fullest possible and reasonable extent seems like an egregious hypocrisy. Obviously, perfection is an impossible ideal and to expect it from Morrissey or anyone else is unfair and unrealistic, but the more uncompromising and aggressive someone is in their ideology, the easier it becomes for their critics to zero in on their hypocrisies and inconsistencies. Considering how vocal Morrissey has been about animal rights for so many years---often more so than many of his peers---it isn't that outrageous that he's criticized for not being vegan while other vegetarian activists who are less dogmatic might fly under the radar.

That message was fantastic. That is exactly what I believe as well. Perfect explanation.

 

[MIDNITE]

I'm convinced some of the people in this thread would criticizing Morrissey up and down regardless of his position on animal rights or any number of other subjects, and the "flesh phobia" theory is truly bizarre, but it makes sense to me that Morrissey catches so much heat for not being vegan.

When someone takes a hardline stance on an issue, as Morrissey has with animal rights, they place themselves in treacherous ground where there is little room to err. For someone to assume a sanctimonious attitude to the degree that an inordinate amount of time and energy is dedicated to moralizing and policing the behaviors of others (in Morrissey's case, enforcing dietary restrictions on his band, collaborators, and those who share his environment in professional situations) according to a particular ideology without also adhering to that ideology themselves to the fullest possible and reasonable extent seems like an egregious hypocrisy. Obviously, perfection is an impossible ideal and to expect it from Morrissey or anyone else is unfair and unrealistic, but the more uncompromising and aggressive someone is in their ideology, the easier it becomes for their critics to zero in on their hypocrisies and inconsistencies. Considering how vocal Morrissey has been about animal rights for so many years---often more so than many of his peers---it isn't that outrageous that he's criticized for not being vegan while other vegetarian activists who are less dogmatic might fly under the radar.

...........

 

[Anonymous]

Considering how vocal Morrissey has been about animal rights for so many years---often more so than many of his peers---it isn't that outrageous that he's criticized for not being vegan while other vegetarian activists who are less dogmatic might fly under the radar.

Amen. I really wouldn't give a hoot if he eats cheese or not - but the fact that he performs 'Meat is Murder' in front of a video that specifically raises the plight of dairy cows, then happily asks for dairy cheese on his rider (and - before someone says 'oh, maybe it's for the crew or band' - remember this is a guy who insists is crew/band follow his diet). Well, even his most ardent apologists have to admit that reeks of hypocrisy.

 

[2-J]

(and - before someone says 'oh, maybe it's for the crew or band' - remember this is a guy who insists is crew/band follow his diet)..

Indeed. And not only that, he frequently insists his audience follow it as well! (bans on products in venues)

Cheese is murder.

 

[Charlie Cheswick]

Have you all got it out of your system yet?

 

[BrummieBoy]

I'm convinced some of the people in this thread would criticizing Morrissey up and down regardless of his position on animal rights or any number of other subjects, and the "flesh phobia" theory is truly bizarre, but it makes sense to me that Morrissey catches so much heat for not being vegan.

When someone takes a hardline stance on an issue, as Morrissey has with animal rights, they place themselves in treacherous ground where there is little room to err. For someone to assume a sanctimonious attitude to the degree that an inordinate amount of time and energy is dedicated to moralizing and policing the behaviors of others (in Morrissey's case, enforcing dietary restrictions on his band, collaborators, and those who share his environment in professional situations) according to a particular ideology without also adhering to that ideology themselves to the fullest possible and reasonable extent seems like an egregious hypocrisy. Obviously, perfection is an impossible ideal and to expect it from Morrissey or anyone else is unfair and unrealistic, but the more uncompromising and aggressive someone is in their ideology, the easier it becomes for their critics to zero in on their hypocrisies and inconsistencies. Considering how vocal Morrissey has been about animal rights for so many years---often more so than many of his peers---it isn't that outrageous that he's criticized for not being vegan while other vegetarian activists who are less dogmatic might fly under the radar.

^THIS!

best
BB

 

[e1094]

Sorry, i try to follow your line of argument here, but i cannot understand why someone who - according to your knowledge - is NOT a vegan MUST BE aware of the conditions of farm animals.

Could you explain that to me? Thank you.

ya forgot to respond to this but it was just an error of wording on my part. basic message i was trying to portray was since he is vegetarian (not sure why i said not vegan... anyways) and so pro animal rights im sure hes done extensive research of the treatment of animals in slaughter houses as well as dairy farms to the point of him being farily knowledgeable on both parts. so why the dairy?... anywas, the message from Detritus summarized my argument very nicely, i dont really have much more to add on from that.

 

[Chickpea]

I'm convinced some of the people in this thread would criticizing Morrissey up and down regardless of his position on animal rights or any number of other subjects, and the "flesh phobia" theory is truly bizarre, but it makes sense to me that Morrissey catches so much heat for not being vegan.

When someone takes a hardline stance on an issue, as Morrissey has with animal rights, they place themselves in treacherous ground where there is little room to err. For someone to assume a sanctimonious attitude to the degree that an inordinate amount of time and energy is dedicated to moralizing and policing the behaviors of others (in Morrissey's case, enforcing dietary restrictions on his band, collaborators, and those who share his environment in professional situations) according to a particular ideology without also adhering to that ideology themselves to the fullest possible and reasonable extent seems like an egregious hypocrisy. Obviously, perfection is an impossible ideal and to expect it from Morrissey or anyone else is unfair and unrealistic, but the more uncompromising and aggressive someone is in their ideology, the easier it becomes for their critics to zero in on their hypocrisies and inconsistencies. Considering how vocal Morrissey has been about animal rights for so many years---often more so than many of his peers---it isn't that outrageous that he's criticized for not being vegan while other vegetarian activists who are less dogmatic might fly under the radar.

In theory I totally agree with you, but as someone who spent an awful lot of years as "just" a vegetarian before going vegan (and even taking a midlife-crisis-esque "meat rumspringa" in between), I see sooooo much gray area in practice, much of which I believe is generational. This is the case for pretty much every vegan I know over the age of about 35. I think there's a different attitude among younger people who grew up in a time when being vegan or vegetarian wasn't so weird; commonplace, even. When I was a teenager and even into my 20s, saying you were vegetarian was pretty much akin to saying you were a member of the ALF. Morrissey is a good 15 years older than me, and I am certain that was even more extreme a position when he was coming up in life. I don't say this to excuse willful ignorance of the dairy/egg/leather industries in this day and age, but rather to have a little understanding for why he likely sees himself as taking a hardline stance. I'm actually quite surprised to see the recent quotes from him about dairy and eggs and leather, and I'm glad that he is at the very least facing those issues and making some attempt to confront them, even if he hasn't quite made it there yet. I, too, am constantly working on myself and questioning various choices I make when it comes to animal rights and environmental ethics. It's not all cut and dry.

You are very right, though, and I thank you for (as usual) expressing yourself so clearly and thoughtfully on what is a pretty difficult subject.

 

[Fiona]

Perfect. Spot on. Second you here. Thank you.

In theory I totally
agree with you, but as someone who spent an awful lot of years as "just" a vegetarian before going vegan (and even taking a midlife-crisis-esque "meat rumspringa" in between), I see sooooo much gray area in practice, much of which I believe is generational. This is the case for pretty much every vegan I know over the age of about 35. I think there's a different attitude among younger people who grew up in a time when being vegan or vegetarian wasn't so weird; commonplace, even. When I was a teenager and even into my 20s, saying you were vegetarian was pretty much akin to saying you were a member of the ALF. Morrissey is a good 15 years older than me, and I am certain that was even more extreme a position when he was coming up in life. I don't say this to excuse willful ignorance of the dairy/egg/leather industries in this day and age, but rather to have a little understanding for why he likely sees himself as taking a hardline stance. I'm actually quite surprised to see the recent quotes from him about dairy and eggs and leather, and I'm glad that he is at the very least facing those issues and making some attempt to confront them, even if he hasn't quite made it there yet. I, too, am constantly working on myself and questioning various choices I make when it comes to animal rights and environmental ethics. It's not all cut and dry.

You are very right, though, and I thank you for (as usual) expressing yourself so clearly and thoughtfully on what is a pretty difficult subject.

 

[realitybites]

I'm convinced some of the people in this thread would criticizing Morrissey up and down regardless of his position on animal rights or any number of other subjects, and the "flesh phobia" theory is truly bizarre, but it makes sense to me that Morrissey catches so much heat for not being vegan.

When someone takes a hardline stance on an issue, as Morrissey has with animal rights, they place themselves in treacherous ground where there is little room to err. For someone to assume a sanctimonious attitude to the degree that an inordinate amount of time and energy is dedicated to moralizing and policing the behaviors of others (in Morrissey's case, enforcing dietary restrictions on his band, collaborators, and those who share his environment in professional situations) according to a particular ideology without also adhering to that ideology themselves to the fullest possible and reasonable extent seems like an egregious hypocrisy. Obviously, perfection is an impossible ideal and to expect it from Morrissey or anyone else is unfair and unrealistic, but the more uncompromising and aggressive someone is in their ideology, the easier it becomes for their critics to zero in on their hypocrisies and inconsistencies. Considering how vocal Morrissey has been about animal rights for so many years---often more so than many of his peers---it isn't that outrageous that he's criticized for not being vegan while other vegetarian activists who are less dogmatic might fly under the radar.

 

[Detritus]

In theory I totally agree with you, but as someone who spent an awful lot of years as "just" a vegetarian before going vegan (and even taking a midlife-crisis-esque "meat rumspringa" in between), I see sooooo much gray area in practice, much of which I believe is generational. This is the case for pretty much every vegan I know over the age of about 35. I think there's a different attitude among younger people who grew up in a time when being vegan or vegetarian wasn't so weird; commonplace, even. When I was a teenager and even into my 20s, saying you were vegetarian was pretty much akin to saying you were a member of the ALF. Morrissey is a good 15 years older than me, and I am certain that was even more extreme a position when he was coming up in life. I don't say this to excuse willful ignorance of the dairy/egg/leather industries in this day and age, but rather to have a little understanding for why he likely sees himself as taking a hardline stance. I'm actually quite surprised to see the recent quotes from him about dairy and eggs and leather, and I'm glad that he is at the very least facing those issues and making some attempt to confront them, even if he hasn't quite made it there yet. I, too, am constantly working on myself and questioning various choices I make when it comes to animal rights and environmental ethics. It's not all cut and dry.

You are very right, though, and I thank you for (as usual) expressing yourself so clearly and thoughtfully on what is a pretty difficult subject.

Morrissey's age and the social climate he grew up in almost certainly informs the way he thinks about this and other ethical matters, and I agree that generational differences are an important factor to consider in this debate (though, as you pointed out, it is not necessarily a justifiable excuse).

I am vegetarian, and I agonize every day over the fact that I'm not vegan. I've been slowly modifying my diet to work towards that goal, so I understand that for many people it's a gradual process that needs to be taken one step at a time. For Morrissey, the process seems to be very gradual, but his recent comments (re: giving up eggs and his struggle to give up leather) coupled with the Zagreb rider (which included rice milk and fewer dairy products than his past riders) seem to indicate that he is endeavoring to eliminate his consumption of non-meat based animal products more than he has attempted in the past, which is progress for someone who was, once upon a time, pretty unapologetic about consuming dairy. Again, this doesn't negate the hypocrisy or discrepancies inherent in his actions and rhetoric over the years and the criticism he draws is valid. To be vegan seems like an obvious course for someone like Morrissey, almost an obligation considering his stringent views on the ethics of being "cruelty-free". However, I personally take the "better late than never" perspective: his position on the issue is evolving, putting him on the road to righting perceived wrongs. It might be long overdue, but if the concern is that Morrissey doesn't walk the talk, then this should ultimately be seen as a good thing.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree, he appears to be slowly venturing into veganism. Yet people here jump to demonise him any chance they get. He's putting rice milk in his tea, he gave up eggs and there was one dairy product on the rider. Give him a break.

 

[Chip]

Not that I've ever seen, no, but I've never visited paulmccartney-solo.com. In the vegan groups I'm part of, the criticism of Morrissey and PM is more along the lines of wondering why they're not vegan, but acknowledging that one or the other was instrumental in raising the initial awareness of many a future vegan at a critical time in life.

I can understand why someone who was a vegan might make such criticisms.

Though why someone who is neither a vegan nor a vegetarian nor any other type of person who is concerned about animal rights would is a mystery. It would be like lecturing someone for driving a Prius and putting up Christmas lights while you were on your way in your Hummer to chop down a redwood forest with the sole purpose of extracting oil beneath it just to burn.

But if there is anything I learned when I was a vegetarian for five years (I no longer am and am not vegan) is that many meat eaters are sanctimonious, abusive bullies with seeming little on their minds other than other people's diets. Whatever afflictions of the mind haunts them I cannot say, but I must feel sorry for them--in spite of their detestable lack of manners--for they must have a truly terrible illness.

As for the other criticism, the flesh phobia/he's just trolling/not actually an animal rights activists that seems unique to a certain cult--I think those criticisms are specific to this page.

 

[Chip]

In theory I totally agree with you, but as someone who spent an awful lot of years as "just" a vegetarian before going vegan (and even taking a midlife-crisis-esque "meat rumspringa" in between), I see sooooo much gray area in practice, much of which I believe is generational. This is the case for pretty much every vegan I know over the age of about 35. I think there's a different attitude among younger people who grew up in a time when being vegan or vegetarian wasn't so weird; commonplace, even. When I was a teenager and even into my 20s, saying you were vegetarian was pretty much akin to saying you were a member of the ALF. Morrissey is a good 15 years older than me, and I am certain that was even more extreme a position when he was coming up in life. I don't say this to excuse willful ignorance of the dairy/egg/leather industries in this day and age, but rather to have a little understanding for why he likely sees himself as taking a hardline stance. I'm actually quite surprised to see the recent quotes from him about dairy and eggs and leather, and I'm glad that he is at the very least facing those issues and making some attempt to confront them, even if he hasn't quite made it there yet. I, too, am constantly working on myself and questioning various choices I make when it comes to animal rights and environmental ethics. It's not all cut and dry.

You are very right, though, and I thank you for (as usual) expressing yourself so clearly and thoughtfully on what is a pretty difficult subject.

I actually was going to make this point myself. I suspect the vegan/vegetarian thing is partially generational, as I feel like it used to be the militant animal rights position was just vegetarianism. I also if my memory serves me correctly--and it probably doesn't--a lot of the animal rights groups that now promote veganism in their literature used to just advocate a vegetarian diet (PETA springs to mind, but I have nothing to base this on other than my own hazy recollection). That would explain why older animal rights activists like McCartney or Morrissey are vegetarian. Even Peter Singer was a vegetarian, not a vegan, and only in the last ten years to I believe he's started to describe himself as a "flexible vegan."

 

[Chickpea]

I actually was going to make this point myself. I suspect the vegan/vegetarian thing is partially generational, as I feel like it used to be the militant animal rights position was just vegetarianism. I also if my memory serves me correctly--and it probably doesn't--a lot of the animal rights groups that now promote veganism in their literature used to just advocate a vegetarian diet (PETA springs to mind, but I have nothing to base this on other than my own hazy recollection). That would explain why older animal rights activists like McCartney or Morrissey are vegetarian. Even Peter Singer was a vegetarian, not a vegan, and only in the last ten years to I believe he's started to describe himself as a "flexible vegan."

Yes, that's absolutely correct.

I was not raised vegetarian (it was a choice I made myself when I was about 13 years old), but my mother was/is one of those natural-food/hippie types who made her own yogurt and grew vegetables, etc., and I very clearly remember the "vegetarian" cookbooks in our house featuring all manner of non-vegetarian foods like tuna fish. The one I can specifically recall was Anna Thomas's enormous bestseller, The Vegetarian Epicure, which actually had a section on enjoying Thanksgiving turkey (!) with friends while passing around the "peace pipe." I believe this section has continued into the revised editions of the book as well—and again, it's a generational thing. No contemporary vegetarian cookbook author would feature a fish or turkey recipe!

One of my problems with PETA is that despite being seen by the general population as "extreme" in their viewpoints, I think they are really quite lax about who and what actions they will laud publicly—so you see things like meat-eaters posing for anti-fur ads, Pam Anderson walking around in shearling UGG boots, and so forth. It's all about generating interest through celebrity, of course, and I get that, but I think it's confusing for people who don't have any interest (or just a passing interest) in animal welfare, since it paints the entire movement (if you want to call it that) with a brush of hypocrisy. And if there's anything I've learned in my years of being vegetarian/vegan, it's that a lot of meat-eaters are absolutely desperate to brand you as a hypocrite. Seeing that attitude come from within the world of vegans (as we have in some recent threads here) as well is so disappointing—it accomplishes nothing. I will never, ever believe that it's somehow better to do nothing than to do what you feel you're capable of.

 

[BrummieBoy]

Yes, that's absolutely correct.

I was not raised vegetarian (it was a choice I made myself when I was about 13 years old), but my mother was/is one of those natural-food/hippie types who made her own yogurt and grew vegetables, etc., and I very clearly remember the "vegetarian" cookbooks in our house featuring all manner of non-vegetarian foods like tuna fish. The one I can specifically recall was Anna Thomas's enormous bestseller, The Vegetarian Epicure, which actually had a section on enjoying Thanksgiving turkey (!) with friends while passing around the "peace pipe." I believe this section has continued into the revised editions of the book as well—and again, it's a generational thing. No contemporary vegetarian cookbook author would feature a fish or turkey recipe!

One of my problems with PETA is that despite being seen by the general population as "extreme" in their viewpoints, I think they are really quite lax about who and what actions they will laud publicly—so you see things like meat-eaters posing for anti-fur ads, Pam Anderson walking around in shearling UGG boots, and so forth. It's all about generating interest through celebrity, of course, and I get that, but I think it's confusing for people who don't have any interest (or just a passing interest) in animal welfare, since it paints the entire movement (if you want to call it that) with a brush of hypocrisy. And if there's anything I've learned in my years of being vegetarian/vegan, it's that a lot of meat-eaters are absolutely desperate to brand you as a hypocrite. Seeing that attitude come from within the world of vegans (as we have in some recent threads here) as well is so disappointing—it accomplishes nothing. I will never, ever believe that it's somehow better to do nothing than to do what you feel you're capable of.

Let's see Morrissey adopt that attitude and drop his bullshit 'Meat Is Murder' whilst condoning 'Milk Is Murder'. If he wasn't such a pompous moralising prick, he wouldn't be open to such egregious charges of hypocrisy via Cheese. Morrissey's entire schtick is an appeal to empathy, that people wouldn't 'murder' another human, so why 'murder' for meat? Unfortunately for this twit, the footage he shows also involves dairy cows he die for his cheese fetish. He's a hypocrite.

best
BB

 

[realitybites]

Though why someone who is neither a vegan nor a vegetarian nor any other type of person who is concerned about animal rights would is a mystery. It would be like lecturing someone for driving a Prius and putting up Christmas lights while you were on your way in your Hummer to chop down a redwood forest with the sole purpose of extracting oil beneath it just to burn.

That is why we have a problem with the preacher, Morrissey, not practicing what he is preaching to his apostles--and other audience members who just want to hear their favorite singer sing but not be searched, prior to entering a venue, for meat contraband.

But if there is anything I learned when I was a vegetarian for five years (I no longer am and am not vegan) is that many meat [abstainers] are sanctimonious, abusive bullies with seeming little on their minds other than other people's diets.

I think you just described Morrissey.

Whatever afflictions of the mind haunts them I cannot say, but I must feel sorry for them--in spite of their detestable lack of manners--for they must have a truly terrible illness.

Must have an illness because they enjoy pointing out hypocrisy? Is everyone who sands against the grain in need of psychotropic drugs? Of course not.

As for the other criticism, the flesh phobia/he's just trolling/not actually an animal rights activists that seems unique to a certain cult--I think those criticisms are specific to this page.

It is just a hypothesis--like any other put forth on these forums. I do know that the vegetarians I have met who hate the taste and texture of meat--never liked it and don't crave it--have about as little of a problem resisting consuming it as do the rest of us who are able to abstain from walking over hot coals. It isn't even a matter of willpower. I think he is one of those types. I never said he was mentally ill. I suggested his eating is disordered. And clearly it is. Does he care about animals? I believe he does. Does he suffer from cognitive dissonance because he is able to consume butter and cheese which were produced in that same system of suffering he claims to be appalled by? Of course--he must. Who wouldn't?

 

[Anonymous]

To the "person" on here who found my twitter account, started a profile called KILL FIONA, and called me a bitch, just to let you know I screen-capped your tweet as soon as I saw it, and will forward it to relevant authorities IF you try this again. Online harassment is taken very, very seriously nowadays.

epsecially death threats or threats in the form of violence

 

[realitybites]

To the "person" on here who found my twitter account, started a profile called KILL FIONA, and called me a bitch, just to let you know I screen-capped your tweet as soon as I saw it, and will forward it to relevant authorities IF you try this again. Online harassment is taken very, very seriously nowadays.

Go ahead and report it now.