Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that's why

[Anonymous]

So I have been reading for years that people have been complaining, sometimes hatefully, about the songwriting of Jesse Tobias. I never understood why. I have been thinking, "What´s the problem? These last albums have been good." I just assumed he has been writing the bulk of the songs. I rarely look at song credits. But so now I just went through the complete list of Morrissey songs (post-Smiths) and plucked out the songs that I know I really like. I then checked their co-writer credits and lo and behold, only ONE of these songs was co-written by JT. The large bulk of my favorites are from Whyte and then Boorer. So, I guess the point of this is, I see why some people, at least based on my taste, are whining. I would not hate on the guy though. It´s not like anything Morrissey puts out really sucks. Some songs are just less good. I guess those are the JT tunes. I suppose if Morrissey co-wrote solely with Whyte and Boorer again, or Street, or Nevin, I would be psyched. But he´s not doing that, so oh well. Here is my list, by the way.

best songs

"Art-hounds" (Morrissey/Boz Boorer)

"Best Friend On The Payroll” (Morrissey/Alain Whyte)

"Black-Eyed Susan" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte)

"Come Back To Camden" (Morrissey/Boz Boorer)

"Dear God Please Help Me" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte/Ennio Morricone)

"Do Your Best And Don't Worry" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte)

"Everyday Is Like Sunday" (Morrissey/Stephen Street)

"Ganglord" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte)

"Get Off The Stage” (Morrissey/Andy Rourke)

"Hold On To Your Friends" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte)

"I Am Hated For Loving" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte)

"I Know It's Gonna Happen Someday" (Morrissey/Mark E. Nevin)

"Interesting Drug" (Morrissey/Stephen Street)

"In The Future When All's Well" (Morrissey/Jesse Tobias)

"I've Changed My Plea To Guilty” (Morrissey/Mark E. Nevin)

"The Last Of The Famous International Playboys" (Morrissey/Stephen Street)

"Life Is A Pigsty" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte)

"Mama Lay Softly On The Riverbed" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte)

"Mute Witness" (Morrissey/Clive Langer)

"My Love Life" (Morrissey/Mark E. Nevin)

"The National Front Disco" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte)

"Now My Heart Is Full" (Morrissey/Boz Boorer)

"One Day Goodbye Will Be Farewell" (Morrissey/Boz Boorer)

"Satan Rejected My Soul" (Morrissey/Martin Boorer)

"Sing Your Life" (Morrissey/Mark E. Nevin)

"Something Is Squeezing My Skull" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte)

"Speedway" (Morrissey/Boz Boorer)

"Spring-Heeled Jim" (Morrissey/Boz Boorer)

"Staircase At The University" (Morrissey/Boz Boorer)

"Suedehead" (Morrissey/Stephen Street)

"Sweetie-Pie" (Morrissey/Mike Farrell)

"There's A Place In Hell For Me And My Friends" (Morrissey/Mark E. Nevin)

"To Me You Are A Work Of Art" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte)

"Why Don't You Find Out For Yourself" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte)

"You Know I Couldn't Last" (Morrissey/Alain Whyte/Gary Day)

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

i like his songs alright. you have killed me and the youngest was the most loved were two of the only songs i liked off of tormentors and for all that people dont like years of refusal hes only credited on three songs out of twelve. he seems to get some gruff and is maybe perceived as being guilty of pushing moz into his rockier direction on the last couple pf albums though i think thats unfair. the power chord version of hand in glove he did somewhere gets mentioned a lot to his detriment. his contributions to swords was great imo and i think he hit his peak thus far on world peace with bullfighter, kiss me a lot and personal fav im not a man.

 

[Belligerent Ghoul]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

It's b/c Tobias is the weakest link. He replaced, I did not realize it at the time, a very good songwriter in Alain Whyte. Yes, Tobias has written his best work with "World Peace..." but Boz who was shut out from one album entirely, has shouldered the weight and proved (as if he needed to) that he is quite capable in his own right. Add to all of this that the clock is ticking. How many albums are left? And so many want Morrissey to work with the very best and go out on a bang and not a whimper. How does one achieve that? With Boz, Gustavo, and Tobias? Instead of massaging it, I'll just say it - I don't think so.

Is Morrissey going to phone up Stephen Street (who re-mastered a couple albums recently)? Probably not. Is it likely that he will re-connect with past collaborators? No. We forget this is a man who appears extremely loyal - 7 years without a record deal - because according to him the stipulation from the labels was 'dump your current band' and he wasn't willing to. Given the esteem in which I hold Quarry, I'm glad he held out. Both Alain's contributions and Boz's contributions to that album rival Vauxhall (they are just glossed / produced up too much for some to realize it, I think). Have your heard the stripped down versions of any of those songs? Nevermind, because you've made up your minds.

So, given all this, how do you go out on a high note and/or on the highest note? With this current line up, I don't think you do. Most people believe post-Marr, Morrissey carried the lads, the bands that backed him, and it weighed heavy on his back. I've never heard anyone say the bands carried him...other than maybe "Southpaw Grammar" which was seemingly by design. I think this is evident, though less so with Stephen Street, from the break up of The Smiths to present day. Substitute out Tobias (not from touring, but from writing) with another songwriter and maybe you get magic...the Vauxhall Revisited...so many of you seem to want. Maybe you don't. But it's hard to imagine that imaginary person would be less than Jesse.

I think the only way Morrissey rises to the highest heights, with the best songwriters, is a concept album where he is backed by a different group of songwriters/bands for each song. Of course, the problem is Morrissey has a large ego, these bands have their own sense of worth, they aren't pining to work with Morrissey, they don't come cheap (this is huge), the album would/could lack uniformity/theme, and Morrissey thinks of his lyrics (he's said it) as tantamount to Fabergé eggs...not to be entrusted to just anyone. To that I say, yes but you entrusted them to J. Tobias and the debate comes full circle.

Studio Album #11

Title: "___________________"

1. Track 1 - w/ special guest The Trashcan Sinatras
2. Track 2 - w/ special guest Franz Ferdinand
3. Track 3 - w/ special guest The Killers
4. Track 4 - w/ special guest The Dears
5. Track 5 - w/ special guest Belle & Sebastian
6. Track 6 - w/ special guest ____________
7. Track 7 - w/ special guest ____________
8. Track 8 - w/ special guest ____________
9. Track 9 - w/ special guest ____________
10. Track 10 - w/ special guest __________

Of course, it's never going to happen. He's more likely to work with Graduale Nobili, a renowned Icelandic female choir that mostly consists of teenage girls based in Reykjavik.

 

[Layne]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

I think it's a good point; at this stage people want Morrissey to at least have the potential to put out the highest quality work possible because the fact is he is in the back half of his career. So the question becomes: is the current band the best he's had? I'm sure 9/10 would say no. How could it be?

I think people listen to records like Viva Hate, Your Arsenal, and Vauxhall and I and of course the Smiths records and there was some intangible factor with them -- there was magic there -- that just isn't present with the current group and the recent records. Are this band capable of producing adequate or good stuff? Yes. Can they make a great record though? The answer is no. There is something lacking. There is no magic. Your Arsenal plays and one listens because one is drawn and one must. World Peace plays and listening is a task, one is not drawn deeper but left listening through a window from the promenade but not really there where one wants to be.

How does one define and quantify magic? How does one create it? Tough questions.

 

[Charlie Cheswick]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

I think it's a good point; at this stage people want Morrissey to at least have the potential to put out the highest quality work possible because the fact is he is in the back half of his career. So the question becomes: is the current band the best he's had? I'm sure 9/10 would say no. How could it be?

I think people listen to records like Viva Hate, Your Arsenal, and Vauxhall and I and of course the Smiths records and there was some intangible factor with them -- there was magic there -- that just isn't present with the current group and the recent records. Are this band capable of producing adequate or good stuff? Yes. Can they make a great record though? The answer is no. There is something lacking. There is no magic. Your Arsenal plays and one listens because one is drawn and one must. World Peace plays and listening is a task, one is not drawn deeper but left listening through a window from the promenade but not really there where one wants to be.

How does one define and quantify magic? How does one create it? Tough questions.

With The Smiths it was the sound of talent mixed with youth, you can't re-create that in your 50's. I'm not sure Your Arsenal is so amazing compared to his later albums but Mick Ronson did a great job with it.

Still, the point remains, there is no point in expecting a man in his 50's to be making the same music from his youth, it's never going to happen - and with the band there's no point in expecting him to be singing with a young band as age is what brings that magic. Just enjoy it for what it is, or don't.

 

[Raphael Lambach]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

I like him.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

i think JT´s songwriting is also inspired by the guitar he plays, that big Starcaster. It lends itself to power-chords. I like the new songs but mainly for the production I think. The new songs I like more for the music are Boorer´s. I wonder what would happen if Sylvain Sylvain and M got together for something?

 

[Young And Alive]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

I think a lot of the Tobias hate stems from the fact that he replaced Alain, who it now appears was forced out of the band against his will.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

"How does one define and quantify magic? How does one create it? Tough questions."

through agreement and consensus

as for world peace i really liked most of it and was very pleased by the album (and yes the production was fantastic) but i was equally surprised to see that gustauv's writing cred was to neil cassidy. in my mind that was for sure a jesse song but instead it turns out he wrote im not a man which is awesome

. never played a stratocaster myself for any length of time (of course ive picked one up now and again in the past) as my first electrics were crappy fenders and then less pauls but you could be right about it lending itself to powerchords more naturally.

 

[Layne]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

Even Quarry had a certain magic. A small touch mind you but it was present. It was biting and necessary and then the two records before World Peace just seemed largely redundant and unadventurous.

World Peace is a step forward but a predictable one. Even without changing the band, to be fair the only thing stopping Morrissey from making a shocking and mind blowing record is himself. Think the shocking contrasts between Kill Uncle and Your Arsenal. Then the surprise change in direction from YA to Vauxhall. And then once again the ambitiously different Southpaw Grammar.

The recent records have been incredibly safe and relatively predictable. Although I do maintain that Morrissey did create some of his highest quality songs on the new record such as Istanbul. But who didn't see the Spanish flair in the side view mirror? The production on the new record is also an improvement as I've said but it doesn't top Steve Lillywhite.

This has been mentioned in interviews and it seems like the band, particularly Boz, know what pieces of music Morrissey is likely to like and they go for something that will please him.

 

[hand in glove]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

I like him, too. I'm not into the Jesse bashing. There are very few Morrissey songs that I dislike and even those few that I don't particularly like, I still know the words to and can listen to them. I don't pay much attention to who wrote what, to be honest. I miss Alain very much, though, but I wish all - including Gary and Spencer - were still around today. I miss those days.

 

[Chickpea]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

I like him, too. I'm not into the Jesse bashing. There are very few Morrissey songs that I dislike and even those few that I don't particularly like, I still know the words to and can listen to them. I don't pay much attention to who wrote what, to be honest. I miss Alain very much, though, but I wish all - including Gary and Spencer - were still around today. I miss those days.

I feel exactly the same way, HIG.

 

[stux]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

I think a lot of the Tobias hate stems from the fact that he replaced Alain, who it now appears was forced out of the band against his will.

I think this is true.

I believe Alain was / is a tremendous songwriter and Morrissey has missed his work very much. I don't think Jesse comes anywhere near Alain when it comes to compositions, his work on World Peace is his best as I don't really care for You Have Killed Me or the other stuff he's done.

Having said that I do rate Jesse more highly as a guitarist.

 

[Charlie Cheswick]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

Even Quarry had a certain magic. A small touch mind you but it was present. It was biting and necessary and then the two records before World Peace just seemed largely redundant and unadventurous.

World Peace is a step forward but a predictable one. Even without changing the band, to be fair the only thing stopping Morrissey from making a shocking and mind blowing record is himself. Think the shocking contrasts between Kill Uncle and Your Arsenal. Then the surprise change in direction from YA to Vauxhall. And then once again the ambitiously different Southpaw Grammar.

The recent records have been incredibly safe and relatively predictable. Although I do maintain that Morrissey did create some of his highest quality songs on the new record such as Istanbul. But who didn't see the Spanish flair in the side view mirror? The production on the new record is also an improvement as I've said but it doesn't top Steve Lillywhite.

This has been mentioned in interviews and it seems like the band, particularly Boz, know what pieces of music Morrissey is likely to like and they go for something that will please him.

It's all down to taste I guess, Istanbul is one of the two weakest songs on the album for me, it doesn't seem to go anywhere. I never liked Lillywhite much either, too wishy washy for me.

I think every album he's made has been a big departure from the last right from the debut Smiths album. I don't agree that any album he's made has been safe or predictable. If it was safe everyone would be saying how fab it was.

It's all just down to personal taste.

 

[MozIsGod]

Re: Why so anti-Tobias Oh, that´s why.

i think JT´s songwriting is also inspired by the guitar he plays, that big Starcaster. It lends itself to power-chords.

I can agree with that. When I watched some of the live performances on the Tormentors/Refusal tours, Jesse played a Gibson Trini Lopez on most of the Smiths songs (and even slower Alain stuff like Seasick, etc.). I considered it a fresh contrast to his usual Starcaster that you mention. In fact, I was hoping the Lopez would become his standard go-to guitar on following albums but I guess that hasn't been the case. When Jesse plays Smiths stuff on that guitar, it sounds quite good to my ears (Still Ill, etc.) I don't know if anyone else has the same opinion on that as I do.