Bill Poster
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These Things Take Time In-Depth Discussion
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Bill Poster
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These Things Take Time In-Depth Discussion That'll Piss Some People Off
I just wanted to discuss the Pablo Cuckoo version of These Things Take Time and the language used in it, because it is one of my fave Smiths songs.
Mine eyes have seen the glory
Of the sacred wunderkind
Morrissey’s paraphrasing The Battle Hymn of the Republic here, which has the line in the original: ‘Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.’ It’s clearly a submerged sexual reference here, as Morrissey has seen the glorious sight of his ‘wunderkind’ (i.e. young lusted-after companion) naked and ejaculating/coming. It’s the first of two recontextualized song titles in the lyrics, as befitting a singer who obviously loves playing with and subverting words. ‘The coming of the Lord’ suggests a religious interpretation of the line, as does the word ‘sacred,’ and a glimpse into the esteem with which Morrissey holds this young man.
You took me behind
A disused railway line
Once again, the first line is a pretty obvious disguised sexual reference (you could, eh, cheekily suggest that Morrissey’s rear is a ‘disused railway line,’ as one friend of mine put it!). Morrissey has been anally penetrated in an outdoor location. He is the one on the receiving end of the f***ing, the literal and figurative bottom in the equation, as befits the later lines about his self-confidence and self-esteem. His sexual companion has instigated the sexual experience, not the singer himself, who sees himself as not being worthy of his lover’s attention, sexual and otherwise. This next bit I find very interesting. In the released version, he sings:
And said I know a place where we can go
Where we are not known
And then you gave me something
That I won’t forget too soon
Notice once again how he is ‘given’ a f***ing, not taking/instigating it, the passive partner in the whole outdoor event, with his partner even choosing the location ‘Where we are not known.’ So they can go someplace outdoors and f*** in peace, far away from prying voyeur eyes or ears…except when Morrissey chooses to write a song about it. But in the Pablo Cuckoo version, he sings:
Flipped into blinding fire
And wrestled with surf and sand
Oh I’m saved! I’m saved! You took my hand
The first line is clearly a reference to the blinding pain of anal sex (or ‘painal’ as some of the dodgier porn sites would put it in an inelegant, but good, portmanteau). Guess no lube was involved! If you put the lines together the context becomes clearer:
You took me behind
A disused railway line
Flipped into blinding fire
The word ‘flipped’ is a kinetic one, suggesting that Morrissey has had his world flipped upside down, or potentially has been flipped on his back, where he ‘wrestled with surf and sand.’ This too suggests vigorous physical movement, wrestling with each other as they f***, him in pain. ‘Surf and sand’ is an odd phrase to use. Two four-letter words, both starting with the letter ‘s.’ It suggests both liquid and solid physical reality, waves of pain, a meeting of dirt and water, potentially an ejaculation metaphor. Or maybe not. Maybe he was just trying to do something using alliteration that sounded poetic and it didn’t quite suit him, which was why he changed it to the later, less poetic, more shy version. Maybe there was some a river nearby or something! The lines ‘I’m saved! I’m saved! You took my hand’ suggest that the experience was traumatic for Morrissey, something he was glad was over (‘saved’ after the ‘blinding fire’ and ‘wrestling’ of the experience) when it was. No real pleasure is derived. Then his lover takes his hand (a line which corresponds to ‘you took me behind’ earlier in the song, using a similar word scheme; ‘behind’ and ‘hand’ have a lot of the same letters, which makes the unreleased version scan much better than the uninteresting corresponding lines in the released version) after taking him behind, a small gesture of tender intimacy. The worst is over. This experience seems to have been something to be endured rather than enjoyed, and Morrissey has ambivalent feelings about it, because his ‘wunderkind’ has shocked and awed him by being naked in front of him, but also inflicted sexual pain on him. The infliction of that sexual pain, with the singer being maybe virginal, suggests that his partner wasn’t that experienced either (discounting the fact he may have been a bit sadistic), or he would have made it an easier and better experience for Morrissey; he is young and fumbling, but still clearly in a better place physically and mentally and emotionally than Morrissey.
But I can’t believe that you’d ever care
And this is why you will never care
These things take time
And I know that I’m
The most inept that ever stepped
So Morrissey has submitted himself to an outdoor sexual experience with somebody whom he clearly adores (‘wunderkind’), but he suspects it will come to nothing relationship-wise as he is not worth loving as he is, hyperbolically, ‘the most inept that ever stepped.’ I never ever liked the rhyming of ‘inept’ with ‘stepped’; seems clumsy to me.
I’m spellbound
But a woman divides
And the hills are alive with celibate cries
Morrissey is writing as the ‘woman’ dividing as he is penetrated in this encounter, writing in homosexual code to cover things up and make it seem like more of a heterosexual encounter. The hilarious bastardization of the line ‘The hills are alive with the sound of music’ from the musical The Sound of Music almost seems to suggest that Morrissey is singing as he gets f***ed! Or, much more likely, it was just another one of his clever and hilarious pun-ploy-plays on other words, like the previous Battle Hymn reference. Morrissey is ‘celibate,’ which could potentially be another word for a virgin. In both versions, the song suggests that the experience was an overwhelming one for the singer, with him seeing the ‘glory’ of the ‘sacred wunderkind’ (he likes the religious word sacred, and uses it more than once in his songs, most interestingly in the unreleased version of What Difference Does It Make, where he sings ‘Oh my sacred mother!’ Guess that one was too revealing, and didn’t fit the subject matter entirely, so he took it out) and getting ‘something that I won’t forget too soon’ and being ‘spellbound’ and crying/singing out in an ecstatic/painful coitus chorus.
But you know where you came from
You know where you’re going
And you know where you belong
You said I was ill and you were not wrong
I just wanted to discuss the Pablo Cuckoo version of These Things Take Time and the language used in it, because it is one of my fave Smiths songs.
Mine eyes have seen the glory
Of the sacred wunderkind
Morrissey’s paraphrasing The Battle Hymn of the Republic here, which has the line in the original: ‘Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.’ It’s clearly a submerged sexual reference here, as Morrissey has seen the glorious sight of his ‘wunderkind’ (i.e. young lusted-after companion) naked and ejaculating/coming. It’s the first of two recontextualized song titles in the lyrics, as befitting a singer who obviously loves playing with and subverting words. ‘The coming of the Lord’ suggests a religious interpretation of the line, as does the word ‘sacred,’ and a glimpse into the esteem with which Morrissey holds this young man.
You took me behind
A disused railway line
Once again, the first line is a pretty obvious disguised sexual reference (you could, eh, cheekily suggest that Morrissey’s rear is a ‘disused railway line,’ as one friend of mine put it!). Morrissey has been anally penetrated in an outdoor location. He is the one on the receiving end of the f***ing, the literal and figurative bottom in the equation, as befits the later lines about his self-confidence and self-esteem. His sexual companion has instigated the sexual experience, not the singer himself, who sees himself as not being worthy of his lover’s attention, sexual and otherwise. This next bit I find very interesting. In the released version, he sings:
And said I know a place where we can go
Where we are not known
And then you gave me something
That I won’t forget too soon
Notice once again how he is ‘given’ a f***ing, not taking/instigating it, the passive partner in the whole outdoor event, with his partner even choosing the location ‘Where we are not known.’ So they can go someplace outdoors and f*** in peace, far away from prying voyeur eyes or ears…except when Morrissey chooses to write a song about it. But in the Pablo Cuckoo version, he sings:
Flipped into blinding fire
And wrestled with surf and sand
Oh I’m saved! I’m saved! You took my hand
The first line is clearly a reference to the blinding pain of anal sex (or ‘painal’ as some of the dodgier porn sites would put it in an inelegant, but good, portmanteau). Guess no lube was involved! If you put the lines together the context becomes clearer:
You took me behind
A disused railway line
Flipped into blinding fire
The word ‘flipped’ is a kinetic one, suggesting that Morrissey has had his world flipped upside down, or potentially has been flipped on his back, where he ‘wrestled with surf and sand.’ This too suggests vigorous physical movement, wrestling with each other as they f***, him in pain. ‘Surf and sand’ is an odd phrase to use. Two four-letter words, both starting with the letter ‘s.’ It suggests both liquid and solid physical reality, waves of pain, a meeting of dirt and water, potentially an ejaculation metaphor. Or maybe not. Maybe he was just trying to do something using alliteration that sounded poetic and it didn’t quite suit him, which was why he changed it to the later, less poetic, more shy version. Maybe there was some a river nearby or something! The lines ‘I’m saved! I’m saved! You took my hand’ suggest that the experience was traumatic for Morrissey, something he was glad was over (‘saved’ after the ‘blinding fire’ and ‘wrestling’ of the experience) when it was. No real pleasure is derived. Then his lover takes his hand (a line which corresponds to ‘you took me behind’ earlier in the song, using a similar word scheme; ‘behind’ and ‘hand’ have a lot of the same letters, which makes the unreleased version scan much better than the uninteresting corresponding lines in the released version) after taking him behind, a small gesture of tender intimacy. The worst is over. This experience seems to have been something to be endured rather than enjoyed, and Morrissey has ambivalent feelings about it, because his ‘wunderkind’ has shocked and awed him by being naked in front of him, but also inflicted sexual pain on him. The infliction of that sexual pain, with the singer being maybe virginal, suggests that his partner wasn’t that experienced either (discounting the fact he may have been a bit sadistic), or he would have made it an easier and better experience for Morrissey; he is young and fumbling, but still clearly in a better place physically and mentally and emotionally than Morrissey.
But I can’t believe that you’d ever care
And this is why you will never care
These things take time
And I know that I’m
The most inept that ever stepped
So Morrissey has submitted himself to an outdoor sexual experience with somebody whom he clearly adores (‘wunderkind’), but he suspects it will come to nothing relationship-wise as he is not worth loving as he is, hyperbolically, ‘the most inept that ever stepped.’ I never ever liked the rhyming of ‘inept’ with ‘stepped’; seems clumsy to me.
I’m spellbound
But a woman divides
And the hills are alive with celibate cries
Morrissey is writing as the ‘woman’ dividing as he is penetrated in this encounter, writing in homosexual code to cover things up and make it seem like more of a heterosexual encounter. The hilarious bastardization of the line ‘The hills are alive with the sound of music’ from the musical The Sound of Music almost seems to suggest that Morrissey is singing as he gets f***ed! Or, much more likely, it was just another one of his clever and hilarious pun-ploy-plays on other words, like the previous Battle Hymn reference. Morrissey is ‘celibate,’ which could potentially be another word for a virgin. In both versions, the song suggests that the experience was an overwhelming one for the singer, with him seeing the ‘glory’ of the ‘sacred wunderkind’ (he likes the religious word sacred, and uses it more than once in his songs, most interestingly in the unreleased version of What Difference Does It Make, where he sings ‘Oh my sacred mother!’ Guess that one was too revealing, and didn’t fit the subject matter entirely, so he took it out) and getting ‘something that I won’t forget too soon’ and being ‘spellbound’ and crying/singing out in an ecstatic/painful coitus chorus.
But you know where you came from
You know where you’re going
And you know where you belong
You said I was ill and you were not wrong
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Bill Poster
Member
Re: These Things Take Time In-Depth Discussion That'll Piss Some People Off.
The first two lines can be read as referencing Morrissey’s sexual partner’s relative wealth of sexual experience (‘But you know where you came from/you know where you’re going’) as compared to the singer’s. Or, of course, they can be read much more literally as to his partner’s life plan, which Morrissey clearly sees as being superior to his own ‘ill’ and lost one. It is his typical self-deprecation and low self-esteem discussion that resonates with people with, well, low self-esteem who like to self-deprecate. Morrissey’s self-esteem has been lowered by him being told he is ‘ill’ by his sexual partner, and he has submitted himself to a f*** with somebody who might have been doing it as a sympathetic gesture, or one of sexual health and vitality. So it’s clear Morrissey is in awe of this person, from the start of the song to the finish, in love or some simulacrum thereof, but too ill (or he thinks himself too ill) to have any kind of relationship with somebody he regards as being superior, poised, and sexually experienced. After all, this person had clearly had sex outdoors in this secluded spot before. He can barely believe this ‘wunderkind’ is stooping to have sex with somebody as sick and dull and plain as him. It’s very sad.
But I can’t believe you’d ever care
And so you never cared
For these things take time
And I know that I’m
The most inept that ever stepped
The version of the song that says ‘And so you never cared’ (not on the Cuckoo tape) is my favorite one, because, sadly, Morrissey knows that his angst and temperament will make his lover leaving him behind a self-fulfilling prophecy. It suggests a self-destructive streak a mile wide, married to a lack of self-esteem and self-confidence.
Oh the alcoholic afternoons
When we sat in your room
They meant more to me
Than any living thing on earth
They had more worth
Than any living thing on earth
Here the proximity of a loved/lusted after one is making Morrissey ecstatic. Notice they are just sitting in the room (echoing the young-sexual-partner-using Handsome Devil: ‘And when we’re in your scholarly room/who will swallow whom?’), not indulging in sex; they had to go elsewhere outdoors to do that, which suggests that his lover is young as well and had no real privacy. The alcohol mentioned here is not even necessarily real alcohol; it could just be Morrissey’s giddy intoxication with his lover. For somebody as lonely As Morrissey, merely sitting around with somebody, whether drunk or sober, is invigorating. The last four lines all just start with ‘th,’ and the song title itself uses alliteration with the letter ‘t’. The song title is Morrissey’s sad reference to his inner knowledge that he will somehow mess this relationship up before it can get a real head of steam going, that it will never be given enough time to mature into something more loving than just a tearyeyed transient train-track hillside f***, because Morrissey’s schizoid nature, coupled with his probable fear of being exposed as homosexual, would never let it.
Vivid and in your prime
You will leave me behind
You will leave me behind
Morrissey’s self-loathing and maybe even lack of sexual experience have already, in his mind, driven his young lover away (who is ‘vivid’ versus him being ‘ill’), leaving him both sexually (his ‘behind’) and existentially, leaving him floundering, devastated. He is certain of it, saying ‘You WILL leave me behind.’ There is no uncertainty here, just a statement of (to Morrissey) cold flat hard dull painfueled fact. It can never be any other way; how could it be with someone like him? On another note, I just love ‘Vivid and in your prime’ so much as an expression, and also the double drumroll at the start of the Cuckoo version.
So, erm, yeah, that’s pretty much it. No disrespect is intended towards Morrissey, obviously. Talk amongst yourselves...
The first two lines can be read as referencing Morrissey’s sexual partner’s relative wealth of sexual experience (‘But you know where you came from/you know where you’re going’) as compared to the singer’s. Or, of course, they can be read much more literally as to his partner’s life plan, which Morrissey clearly sees as being superior to his own ‘ill’ and lost one. It is his typical self-deprecation and low self-esteem discussion that resonates with people with, well, low self-esteem who like to self-deprecate. Morrissey’s self-esteem has been lowered by him being told he is ‘ill’ by his sexual partner, and he has submitted himself to a f*** with somebody who might have been doing it as a sympathetic gesture, or one of sexual health and vitality. So it’s clear Morrissey is in awe of this person, from the start of the song to the finish, in love or some simulacrum thereof, but too ill (or he thinks himself too ill) to have any kind of relationship with somebody he regards as being superior, poised, and sexually experienced. After all, this person had clearly had sex outdoors in this secluded spot before. He can barely believe this ‘wunderkind’ is stooping to have sex with somebody as sick and dull and plain as him. It’s very sad.
But I can’t believe you’d ever care
And so you never cared
For these things take time
And I know that I’m
The most inept that ever stepped
The version of the song that says ‘And so you never cared’ (not on the Cuckoo tape) is my favorite one, because, sadly, Morrissey knows that his angst and temperament will make his lover leaving him behind a self-fulfilling prophecy. It suggests a self-destructive streak a mile wide, married to a lack of self-esteem and self-confidence.
Oh the alcoholic afternoons
When we sat in your room
They meant more to me
Than any living thing on earth
They had more worth
Than any living thing on earth
Here the proximity of a loved/lusted after one is making Morrissey ecstatic. Notice they are just sitting in the room (echoing the young-sexual-partner-using Handsome Devil: ‘And when we’re in your scholarly room/who will swallow whom?’), not indulging in sex; they had to go elsewhere outdoors to do that, which suggests that his lover is young as well and had no real privacy. The alcohol mentioned here is not even necessarily real alcohol; it could just be Morrissey’s giddy intoxication with his lover. For somebody as lonely As Morrissey, merely sitting around with somebody, whether drunk or sober, is invigorating. The last four lines all just start with ‘th,’ and the song title itself uses alliteration with the letter ‘t’. The song title is Morrissey’s sad reference to his inner knowledge that he will somehow mess this relationship up before it can get a real head of steam going, that it will never be given enough time to mature into something more loving than just a tearyeyed transient train-track hillside f***, because Morrissey’s schizoid nature, coupled with his probable fear of being exposed as homosexual, would never let it.
Vivid and in your prime
You will leave me behind
You will leave me behind
Morrissey’s self-loathing and maybe even lack of sexual experience have already, in his mind, driven his young lover away (who is ‘vivid’ versus him being ‘ill’), leaving him both sexually (his ‘behind’) and existentially, leaving him floundering, devastated. He is certain of it, saying ‘You WILL leave me behind.’ There is no uncertainty here, just a statement of (to Morrissey) cold flat hard dull painfueled fact. It can never be any other way; how could it be with someone like him? On another note, I just love ‘Vivid and in your prime’ so much as an expression, and also the double drumroll at the start of the Cuckoo version.
So, erm, yeah, that’s pretty much it. No disrespect is intended towards Morrissey, obviously. Talk amongst yourselves...
CrystalGeezer
My secret's my enzyme.
Re: These Things Take Time In-Depth Discussion That'll Piss Some People Off.
Interesting.
Interesting.
Bill Poster
Member
Re: These Things Take Time In-Depth Discussion That'll Piss Some People Off.
Thanks to anybody who likes it. I only heard the Pablo Cuckoo version very recently, and the difference in lyrics totally intrigued me, obscuring, as it does, the more explicitly sexual and poetic nature of the original version. I love all versions, mind you, in different ways. The version I talk about here, slower and heavier than usual, is here, first song up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFC-Y2l0vAs
Thanks to anybody who likes it. I only heard the Pablo Cuckoo version very recently, and the difference in lyrics totally intrigued me, obscuring, as it does, the more explicitly sexual and poetic nature of the original version. I love all versions, mind you, in different ways. The version I talk about here, slower and heavier than usual, is here, first song up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFC-Y2l0vAs
Old Mathew
Well-Known Member
Re: These Things Take Time In-Depth Discussion That'll Piss Some People Off.
Nice analysis, but I think you've missed the key plot point in the song, which is the line "a woman divides." It's not a metaphor. If you read it literally, the song becomes pretty clearly a tale of rejection after "crossing the (sexual) line" with a close friend, and the friend reacting poorly. More explicitly, it's a tale of two young male friends having a sexual encounter, and one of the men (the person addressed) retreating into and bolstering his heterosexual identity by blaming the encounter on the other.
I'd agree with your analysis of the first verses, but would emphasize the importance that the object of the song needs to find "a place... where we are not known." IE, it's important to the object (though not the narrator) that the encounter be discreet.
I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the fact that the narrator is the passive "bottom" in the encounter. After all, remember the old locker room joke: "It's only gay if you receive it."
In any case, yes, the narrator and the object (a male friend) hook up, and afterward the narrator (Moz) is ecstatic that his longed-for romantic interlude has come to pass. He does have reservations though:
But I can’t believe that you’d ever care
And this is why you will never care
The narrator is sensing that the other man doesn't feel the same way he does -- i.e., despite the sexual event, he isn't likely to see being in a relationship with a man as a desired option.
These things take time
What takes time? Coming to terms with the fact that one isn't as straight as they think they are? Coming out in general?
And I know that I’m
The most inept that ever stepped
The narrator isn't afraid that he'll mess up the relationship because he's inept; he's worried that the relationship will or is falling apart simply by having begun. IE, a bit of Catholic guilt about allowing things to go too far (even if in a more passive sexual role during the actual encounter) and thus having damaged the friendship.
"I'm spellbound." Again, the narrator is ecstatic about the encounter.
"But a woman divides." The friend with whom he hooked up is now interested in someone else, a woman, or women in general. And probably always has been. His friend's desire for women "divides" the two of them.
"And the hills are alive with celibate cries." This is the hillside desolate, expressed in a more funny way. Even though he's ecstatic over the interaction (clearly evoking the spinning on the hillsides scene from The Sound of Music), nature -- or at least heteronormative nature -- is telling him he'll be alone.
And, likely, the object of his affection tells him exactly this in the very next verse:
"But you know where you came from
You know where you’re going
And you know where you belong
You said I was ill and you were not wrong."
IE, the other man is retreating into his heteronormative world -- the world of the Ordinary Boys -- and blames his more homosexually-inclined friend for the encounter, even though he instigated it.
The next verse is the narrator's nostalgia for the friendship they had before the encounter, which has now been destroyed by the other's reaction to their sexual interlude.
"Oh the alcoholic afternoons
When we sat in your room
They meant more to me
Than any living thing on earth
They had more worth
Than any living thing on earth."
If only they could return to those "alcoholic afternoons," which is both a lovely phrase of nostalgia but also can be read literally: under the influence of alcohol, perhaps the hetero-identifying friend sent the mixed signals to the more gay narrator that would cause him to believe a romance, rather than just a friendship, was possible.
(A side note: the bleacher scene in "Forgive Someone" expresses a similar scene and sentiment: the confusion a young gay man might experience with his heterosexual friends, particularly those heterosexual (or at least hetero-identifying) friends who flirt and tease with gay men.)
Vivid and in your prime
You will leave me behind
You will leave me behind
Despite the narrator's love for his friend, he knows that the encounter has not only not led to romance, it's destroyed their friendship, and the friend, having told him "he is ill" for being the way he is, will retreat back into the hetero-normative world, leaving the narrator behind with memories of a lovely, fleeting romantic encounter that will never happen again.
Nice analysis, but I think you've missed the key plot point in the song, which is the line "a woman divides." It's not a metaphor. If you read it literally, the song becomes pretty clearly a tale of rejection after "crossing the (sexual) line" with a close friend, and the friend reacting poorly. More explicitly, it's a tale of two young male friends having a sexual encounter, and one of the men (the person addressed) retreating into and bolstering his heterosexual identity by blaming the encounter on the other.
I'd agree with your analysis of the first verses, but would emphasize the importance that the object of the song needs to find "a place... where we are not known." IE, it's important to the object (though not the narrator) that the encounter be discreet.
I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the fact that the narrator is the passive "bottom" in the encounter. After all, remember the old locker room joke: "It's only gay if you receive it."
In any case, yes, the narrator and the object (a male friend) hook up, and afterward the narrator (Moz) is ecstatic that his longed-for romantic interlude has come to pass. He does have reservations though:
But I can’t believe that you’d ever care
And this is why you will never care
The narrator is sensing that the other man doesn't feel the same way he does -- i.e., despite the sexual event, he isn't likely to see being in a relationship with a man as a desired option.
These things take time
What takes time? Coming to terms with the fact that one isn't as straight as they think they are? Coming out in general?
And I know that I’m
The most inept that ever stepped
The narrator isn't afraid that he'll mess up the relationship because he's inept; he's worried that the relationship will or is falling apart simply by having begun. IE, a bit of Catholic guilt about allowing things to go too far (even if in a more passive sexual role during the actual encounter) and thus having damaged the friendship.
"I'm spellbound." Again, the narrator is ecstatic about the encounter.
"But a woman divides." The friend with whom he hooked up is now interested in someone else, a woman, or women in general. And probably always has been. His friend's desire for women "divides" the two of them.
"And the hills are alive with celibate cries." This is the hillside desolate, expressed in a more funny way. Even though he's ecstatic over the interaction (clearly evoking the spinning on the hillsides scene from The Sound of Music), nature -- or at least heteronormative nature -- is telling him he'll be alone.
And, likely, the object of his affection tells him exactly this in the very next verse:
"But you know where you came from
You know where you’re going
And you know where you belong
You said I was ill and you were not wrong."
IE, the other man is retreating into his heteronormative world -- the world of the Ordinary Boys -- and blames his more homosexually-inclined friend for the encounter, even though he instigated it.
The next verse is the narrator's nostalgia for the friendship they had before the encounter, which has now been destroyed by the other's reaction to their sexual interlude.
"Oh the alcoholic afternoons
When we sat in your room
They meant more to me
Than any living thing on earth
They had more worth
Than any living thing on earth."
If only they could return to those "alcoholic afternoons," which is both a lovely phrase of nostalgia but also can be read literally: under the influence of alcohol, perhaps the hetero-identifying friend sent the mixed signals to the more gay narrator that would cause him to believe a romance, rather than just a friendship, was possible.
(A side note: the bleacher scene in "Forgive Someone" expresses a similar scene and sentiment: the confusion a young gay man might experience with his heterosexual friends, particularly those heterosexual (or at least hetero-identifying) friends who flirt and tease with gay men.)
Vivid and in your prime
You will leave me behind
You will leave me behind
Despite the narrator's love for his friend, he knows that the encounter has not only not led to romance, it's destroyed their friendship, and the friend, having told him "he is ill" for being the way he is, will retreat back into the hetero-normative world, leaving the narrator behind with memories of a lovely, fleeting romantic encounter that will never happen again.
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Old Mathew
Well-Known Member
Re: These Things Take Time In-Depth Discussion That'll Piss Some People Off.
Thanks Chickpea.
On further reflection, I think Handsome Devil, Still Ill, You've Got Everything Now, I Want the One I Can't Have, Reel Around the Fountain, and Forgive Someone all are probably based on this event(s)/relationship.
Thanks Chickpea.
On further reflection, I think Handsome Devil, Still Ill, You've Got Everything Now, I Want the One I Can't Have, Reel Around the Fountain, and Forgive Someone all are probably based on this event(s)/relationship.
Bill Poster
Member
Re: These Things Take Time In-Depth Discussion That'll Piss Some People Off.
I don't see many things the same way at all, least of all the guy being straight and recoiling (what evidence is there for this?), but I guess you can read whatever you want into things. Surprised you never added What Difference Does It Make into the list in the post above, which is a tale of homo-on-hetero rejection. The only person who will truly know what it's about is Morrissey. And he will never tell us.
I don't see many things the same way at all, least of all the guy being straight and recoiling (what evidence is there for this?), but I guess you can read whatever you want into things. Surprised you never added What Difference Does It Make into the list in the post above, which is a tale of homo-on-hetero rejection. The only person who will truly know what it's about is Morrissey. And he will never tell us.
Old Mathew
Well-Known Member
Bill,
You're probably right about "What Difference Does It Make" being inspired by that same (real?) relationship. "Miserable Lie" probably ranks as well, or at least partially.
Yes, the difference in interpretation relies upon how metaphorically or literally you interpret "a woman divides." And to clarify, I meant the guy was straight-identifying, not necessarily straight completely. I think the evidence is pretty well laid out for how one could interpret that in my longer post above. And it's pretty well justified by human experience, and the way many people "experiment" with sexual identity at a young age, only to fall into more traditional norms (gay or straight) later in life.
As you say, only one person will ever really know. But it's enjoyable to dig down into Morrissey's lyrics. They are so rich, and even years later they can surprise me. (It took me a full 20 years to get the joke about the "tent flap open wide." :
)
Thanks for starting a great discussion.
You're probably right about "What Difference Does It Make" being inspired by that same (real?) relationship. "Miserable Lie" probably ranks as well, or at least partially.
Yes, the difference in interpretation relies upon how metaphorically or literally you interpret "a woman divides." And to clarify, I meant the guy was straight-identifying, not necessarily straight completely. I think the evidence is pretty well laid out for how one could interpret that in my longer post above. And it's pretty well justified by human experience, and the way many people "experiment" with sexual identity at a young age, only to fall into more traditional norms (gay or straight) later in life.
As you say, only one person will ever really know. But it's enjoyable to dig down into Morrissey's lyrics. They are so rich, and even years later they can surprise me. (It took me a full 20 years to get the joke about the "tent flap open wide." :
)Thanks for starting a great discussion.
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Billtwasreallynowt
Member
Agree with Old Mathew about these interpretations - the only potential differing opinion I would offer - Where lies the line between Morrissey's experiences and Morrissey's fantasies?
These could well be fantasies and suppositions based on his knowledge of the other male and his imagined reactions.
Fascinating stuff all the same and lovely to see in discussion.
These could well be fantasies and suppositions based on his knowledge of the other male and his imagined reactions.
Fascinating stuff all the same and lovely to see in discussion.
Amy
from the Ice Age to the dole age
Re: These Things Take Time In-Depth Discussion That'll Piss Some People Off.
I agree with this completely; and I'd add "What Difference Does It Make?" and "I've Started Something I Couldn't Finish" to the cluster of songs dealing with the same theme (sexual longing/encounters with a straight friend who retreats back into "normal" life afterwards).
In "What Difference..", the narrator "comes out" to his friend about his feelings:
We have been through hell and high tide
I think I can rely on you
But yet you start to recoil
Heavy words are so lightly thrown
He faces/imagines rejection:
What difference does it make?
It makes none, but
Now you have gone
And your prejudice won't keep you warm tonight
and then eventual desertion:
"Now you know the truth about me you won't see me anymore
But I'm still fond of you...".
I'm going to put my feet in the fire again and say that I believe the "inspiration" behind these songs to be... very, very obvious
thumb, an issue revisited later in many songs including I Started Something I Couldn't Finish, There Is a Light, I Won't Share You, Angel, Angel etc.
To this day, I don't know how he got away with the "A woman divides" line, though. Cheeky bastard!
I agree with this completely; and I'd add "What Difference Does It Make?" and "I've Started Something I Couldn't Finish" to the cluster of songs dealing with the same theme (sexual longing/encounters with a straight friend who retreats back into "normal" life afterwards).
In "What Difference..", the narrator "comes out" to his friend about his feelings:
We have been through hell and high tide
I think I can rely on you
But yet you start to recoil
Heavy words are so lightly thrown
He faces/imagines rejection:
What difference does it make?
It makes none, but
Now you have gone
And your prejudice won't keep you warm tonight
and then eventual desertion:
"Now you know the truth about me you won't see me anymore
But I'm still fond of you...".
I'm going to put my feet in the fire again and say that I believe the "inspiration" behind these songs to be... very, very obvious
thumb, an issue revisited later in many songs including I Started Something I Couldn't Finish, There Is a Light, I Won't Share You, Angel, Angel etc.To this day, I don't know how he got away with the "A woman divides" line, though. Cheeky bastard!
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A
Anonymous
Guest
I wish he still wrote like this.
A
Anonymous
Guest
This reminds me of the background picture during "I Know It's Over" when Morrissey sang at Vina in 2012. One man sitting on the lap of another man playing the banjo. Morrissey has been not so subtle for years.....
A
Anonymous
Guest
yeah thats davids user image i believe and yeah hes way subtler about other things like language and humor
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: These Things Take Time In-Depth Discussion That'll Piss Some People Off.
Didn't James Maker once say that the two of them were chased through the streets of Manchester one day and they ended up on Morrissey's bed crying that because they were gay and they would always encounter difficulties in society?
Those songs remind me of that. So sad. His very early songs have a strong theme of angst regarding his sexuality. Seems like by MIM he became a bit more accepting of it
Didn't James Maker once say that the two of them were chased through the streets of Manchester one day and they ended up on Morrissey's bed crying that because they were gay and they would always encounter difficulties in society?
Those songs remind me of that. So sad. His very early songs have a strong theme of angst regarding his sexuality. Seems like by MIM he became a bit more accepting of it
Old Mathew
Well-Known Member
Re: These Things Take Time In-Depth Discussion That'll Piss Some People Off.
Thanks Amy, great feedback, except:
NONE of the early songs i referenced above are or could possibly be about Johnny Marr. These are roughly the first 10 of the 15 Smiths songs ever written. Most likely, every lyric was written before Johnny met Moz in May of 1982.
Moz left school in 1976. My guess would be the "affair" with the unknown person we're talking about, which formed the basis of all those early songs, happened in 1980 or 1981. Probably someone at the local uni. And recently enough that Moz felt going back to those lyrics, which had already been written (in some form) not too long before Marr came along, was a good idea.
Hell, I remember writing about 50 poems about a break up to a relationship that never happened when I was 18. Morrissey was barely 23 when Marr came along; most likely, these are the deeply poetic and talented but nonetheless typical poems that young broken-hearted people write in their rooms to vanquished dreams of love at that tender age.
It wasn't Marr, and I doubt it was James Maker. The muse remains undisclosed, but when you look at that earliest body of work, it seems clear that most of The Smiths and Hatful of Hollow was inspired by, if not one person, then a series of similar events.
It's no secret Moz likes the rough boys (Boxers, etc)... which leaves a lot of room for quashed hopes and misunderstandings, especially in working-class Manchester around 1981.
Thanks Amy, great feedback, except:
I'm going to put my feet in the fire again and say that I believe the "inspiration" behind these songs to be... very, very obvious
NONE of the early songs i referenced above are or could possibly be about Johnny Marr. These are roughly the first 10 of the 15 Smiths songs ever written. Most likely, every lyric was written before Johnny met Moz in May of 1982.
Moz left school in 1976. My guess would be the "affair" with the unknown person we're talking about, which formed the basis of all those early songs, happened in 1980 or 1981. Probably someone at the local uni. And recently enough that Moz felt going back to those lyrics, which had already been written (in some form) not too long before Marr came along, was a good idea.
Hell, I remember writing about 50 poems about a break up to a relationship that never happened when I was 18. Morrissey was barely 23 when Marr came along; most likely, these are the deeply poetic and talented but nonetheless typical poems that young broken-hearted people write in their rooms to vanquished dreams of love at that tender age.
It wasn't Marr, and I doubt it was James Maker. The muse remains undisclosed, but when you look at that earliest body of work, it seems clear that most of The Smiths and Hatful of Hollow was inspired by, if not one person, then a series of similar events.
It's no secret Moz likes the rough boys (Boxers, etc)... which leaves a lot of room for quashed hopes and misunderstandings, especially in working-class Manchester around 1981.
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