Elder musicians with more credibility than Morrissey...

[DavidGlasgow]

Morrissey is and always has been a lyricist -occasionally a great one- but "songwriter" has never been on his resume. Especially not in the Lennon/McCartney sense, both of whom wrote fully formed songs together and alone. Morrissey has always been dependent on a partner to achieve the finished product.

The fact that Moz's music has the same, sometimes very similar, sound despite different bands/collaborators says he's composing/dictating music in some way. Yes. The Smiths recordings were often credited as music by Marr and lyrics by Morrissey. But it's more likely that Morrissey heavily influenced the final melody through his singing.

To my understanding, Morrissey will often invent a tune in his head, and then sing/hum it to the band. How proficient he is at the guitar/piano I haven't witnessed.

So in short to brand him a lyricist is to put him in the same box as Bernie Taupin and Sir Tim Rice. More aptly he is a song-writer even if someone else does write down the final notation.

 

[troubleluvsme]

Oh f*** me hard !!

No thanks.

Hey - maybe if he added Canada, billions would flock to see him.

 

[Charlie Cheswick]

The fact that Moz's music has the same, sometimes very similar, sound despite different bands/collaborators says he's composing/dictating music in some way. Yes. The Smiths recordings were often credited as music by Marr and lyrics by Morrissey. But it's more likely that Morrissey heavily influenced the final melody through his singing.

To my understanding, Morrissey will often invent a tune in his head, and then sing/hum it to the band. How proficient he is at the guitar/piano I haven't witnessed.

So in short to brand him a lyricist is to put him in the same box as Bernie Taupin and Sir Tim Rice. More aptly he is a song-writer even if someone else does write down the final notation.

You're correct. A lyricist just writes lyrics. A songwriter writes both a lyric and the vocal melody.

Legally that's been a sticky issue for many instrumentalists, some are classed as just arrangers while others have been given songwriting credits. At least Moz has always acknowledged that he's half of the equation.

 

[Skylarker]

The fact that Moz's music has the same, sometimes very similar, sound despite different bands/collaborators says he's composing/dictating music in some way.

No; it just means that since 1987 he's been working with people who will go out of their way to provide him with the format he's comfortable with, because they are hired by him, as opposed to "partners" like Marr was. And generally an employee wishes to keep his job and please his boss. In the case of Alain Whyte, who was (and presumably still is) incredibly gifted, this was not a problem. But nonetheless, Alain Whyte was, sadly, no more than a hired hand.

Yes. The Smiths recordings were often credited as music by Marr and lyrics by Morrissey. But it's more likely that Morrissey heavily influenced the final melody through his singing.

What do you base that on? I've read just about every book on the subject, seen every documentary, and watched Christ knows how many interviews with Johnny Marr and while he never shies away from praising Morrissey's gift for bringing something unexpected to the backing track, I don't know that I've ever heard him say Morrissey's vocal melody helped craft or even change the song's original tune. I don't think I've heard any of Morrissey's subsequent partners ever say that, either.

To my understanding, Morrissey will often invent a tune in his head, and then sing/hum it to the band. How proficient he is at the guitar/piano I haven't witnessed.

I just LOL'd for real at reading that statement, man. Are we living in the same reality? Because that is in NO WAY how Morrissey works. He gets tapes sent to him and he goes home and picks notebook poetry out that he thinks will fit the songs; then he comes up with a pattern to sing the words to in a way that will be harmonious with the pre-existing music.

So in short to brand him a lyricist is to put him in the same box as Bernie Taupin and Sir Tim Rice. More aptly he is a song-writer even if someone else does write down the final notation.

Yeah, and I'm a construction worker, even if someone else does draw up the schematics and cuts and assembles all the materials. But since I am paying them to build the house...well, you know, that counts.

 

[Peterb]

No; it just means that since 1987 he's been working with people who will go out of their way to provide him with the format he's comfortable with, because they are hired by him, as opposed to "partners" like Marr was. And generally an employee wishes to keep his job and please his boss. In the case of Alain Whyte, who was (and presumably still is) incredibly gifted, this was not a problem. But nonetheless, Alain Whyte was, sadly, no more than a hired hand.



What do you base that on? I've read just about every book on the subject, seen every documentary, and watched Christ knows how many interviews with Johnny Marr and while he never shies away from praising Morrissey's gift for bringing something unexpected to the backing track, I don't know that I've ever heard him say Morrissey's vocal melody helped craft or even change the song's original tune. I don't think I've heard any of Morrissey's subsequent partners ever say that, either.



I just LOL'd for real at reading that statement, man. Are we living in the same reality? Because that is in NO WAY how Morrissey works. He gets tapes sent to him and he goes home and picks notebook poetry out that he thinks will fit the songs; then he comes up with a pattern to sing the words to in a way that will be harmonious with the pre-existing music.



Yeah, and I'm a construction worker, even if someone else does draw up the schematics and cuts and assembles all the materials. But since I am paying them to build the house...well, you know, that counts.

Of course the truth is more than likely a little less cut and dry.
Morrissey clearly has an influence on the collaborators he works with that goes beyond the simple writing of the lyrics.
For me the evidence of this is his past collaborators lack of visibility post Moz and the melodic tropes that persist throughout his work.
This is not definitive evidence but then again, what do any us know?

 

[Playcat2000]

No thanks.

Hey - maybe if he added Canada, billions would flock to see him.

Better yet, why don't you go ride your bike off a cliff.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

Better yet, why don't you go ride your bike off a cliff.

So, your point is she should incur death or grievous bodily injury because you're too vapid to have a grasp on anything involving numerics?

 

[Mozza220559]

So, your point is she should incur death or grievous bodily injury because you're too vapid to have a grasp on anything involving numerics?

Why bother asking anything? All you'll get is a "f*** you, asshole" retort.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

Why bother asking anything? All you'll get is a "f*** you, asshole" retort.

Because I enjoy embarrassing people who aren't aware they're being embarrassed.

 

[DavidGlasgow]

No; it just means that since 1987 he's been working with people who will go out of their way to provide him with the format he's comfortable with, because they are hired by him, as opposed to "partners" like Marr was. And generally an employee wishes to keep his job and please his boss. In the case of Alain Whyte, who was (and presumably still is) incredibly gifted, this was not a problem. But nonetheless, Alain Whyte was, sadly, no more than a hired hand.

What do you base that on? I've read just about every book on the subject, seen every documentary, and watched Christ knows how many interviews with Johnny Marr and while he never shies away from praising Morrissey's gift for bringing something unexpected to the backing track, I don't know that I've ever heard him say Morrissey's vocal melody helped craft or even change the song's original tune. I don't think I've heard any of Morrissey's subsequent partners ever say that, either.

I just LOL'd for real at reading that statement, man. Are we living in the same reality? Because that is in NO WAY how Morrissey works. He gets tapes sent to him and he goes home and picks notebook poetry out that he thinks will fit the songs; then he comes up with a pattern to sing the words to in a way that will be harmonious with the pre-existing music.

Yeah, and I'm a construction worker, even if someone else does draw up the schematics and cuts and assembles all the materials. But since I am paying them to build the house...well, you know, that counts.

I think we're talking about different people here. I am referring to Steven Morrissey, late of the The Smiths - the idea that no tunes enter his mind is just silly. Of course melodies must bounce around his head. You really expect any of us to believe that Moz is handed a finished melody and then just adds the words to it?

Even True To You confirmed that Moz writes melodies in their fan questions and answer thing.

He might not know much about traditional notation but as a singer he's heavily influential in the final melody. You are basically calling Morrissey a cabaret singer, crooning other people's songs.

Most likely Mozza, after 30 years in the business, composes melodies using a guitar or a piano and using a basic letter notation. You don't spend 30 years in music and never learn the basic chords on a guitar, mate, it just doesn't happen!

 

[Justin Playfair]

Neil Young, "The Godfather of Grunge"




Neil Young, at Farm Aid, in 2013.


-He's in his fifth decade of making tremendous music.

-His 2010 album, "Le Noise," is for the most part, exceptional. He's still making "rad" tunes after all these years. (I'll post one or two songs from this album at the bottom of this post.)




-He has released three more albums since "Le Noise" (2010). One of them features original songs written by him, and performed with his occasional backing band, Crazy Horse. The other two are both albums of "cover" songs.

-Has one of the coolest middle names of all-time, Percival.

-In 1985, Neil Young co-founded the Farm Aid benefit concerts, along with John Cougar Mellencamp and Willie Nelson. The Farm-Aid concerts raise money for family farmers in the United States. The first Farm Aid concert raised over 9 million dollars for family farmers alone. Since 1985, there has been a Farm Aid concert every year, except for 1988 and 1991. Neil Young performed in every concert except for 1989. (In '89, Willie Nelson incorporated Farm Aid into his tour, and visited 16 different towns.) Neil Young is currently on Farm Aid's board of directors, along with fellow musicians Mellencamp, Willie Nelson, & Dave Matthews. "Young's speeches about the environment are a highlight of the annual shows." (source for Farm Aid information is Wikipedia.)

-"In 1986, Neil Young helped found The Bridge School, an educational organization for children with severe verbal and physical disabilities." He also created, along with his wife Pegi, the annual supporting Bridge School Benefit concerts. Neil Young has two sons with cerebral palsy, (one son with Pegi, and one son with actress Carrie Snodgress, who unfortunately died in 2004.) Neil & Pegi also have a daughter who has epilepsy, which Neil himself also has. ( source, Wikipedia.)

I'm tired of researching and writing. Neil Young is ace in my book, both as a man and as a musician. Just like the rest of us, I'm sure he has his failings. He registers pretty high on the credibility meter with me. I'd have to place him above Moz on such a meter. Morrissey still rates higher than him on my favorite musical artists of all-time list. Last time I thought about such a list, Neil Young was 12th. The Smiths were 5th. Morrissey was number 1 on my list. That's the reason I came to Morrissey-Solo. Morrissey is still number 1 today.


-here are two classic cuts from "Le Noise" (2010)....


"Hitchhiker" by Neil Young



-This song is autobiographical.




"Love and War" by Neil Young



-Absolutely beautiful.

 

[Mozza220559]

Because I enjoy embarrassing people who aren't aware they're being embarrassed.

Never!

In all fairness though it doesn't take much effort when it come to playcat

 

[Deleted member 1074]

You are basically calling Morrissey a cabaret singer, crooning other people's songs.

He is.

Most likely Mozza, after 30 years in the business, composes melodies using a guitar or a piano and using a basic letter notation. You don't spend 30 years in music and never learn the basic chords on a guitar, mate, it just doesn't happen!

It did happen.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

Never!

In all fairness though it doesn't take much effort when it come to playcat

Just because it doesn't take effort, that doesn't mean it isn't fun.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

Neil Young, "The Godfather of Grunge"


View attachment 31589

Neil Young, at Farm Aid, in 2013.


-He's in his fifth decade of making tremendous music.

-His 2010 album, "Le Noise," is for the most part, exceptional. He's still making "rad" tunes after all these years. (I'll post one or two songs from this album at the bottom of this post.)

View attachment 31590


-He has released three more albums since "Le Noise" (2010). One of them features original songs written by him, and performed with his occasional backing band, Crazy Horse. The other two are both albums of "cover" songs.

-Has one of the coolest middle names of all-time, Percival.

-In 1985, Neil Young co-founded the Farm Aid benefit concerts, along with John Cougar Mellencamp and Willie Nelson. The Farm-Aid concerts raise money for family farmers in the United States. The first Farm Aid concert raised over 9 million dollars for family farmers alone. Since 1985, there has been a Farm Aid concert every year, except for 1988 and 1991. Neil Young performed in every concert except for 1989. (In '89, Willie Nelson incorporated Farm Aid into his tour, and visited 16 different towns.) Neil Young is currently on Farm Aid's board of directors, along with fellow musicians Mellencamp, Willie Nelson, & Dave Matthews. "Young's speeches about the environment are a highlight of the annual shows." (source for Farm Aid information is Wikipedia.)

-"In 1986, Neil Young helped found The Bridge School, an educational organization for children with severe verbal and physical disabilities." He also created, along with his wife Pegi, the annual supporting Bridge School Benefit concerts. Neil Young has two sons with cerebral palsy, (one son with Pegi, and one son with actress Carrie Snodgress, who unfortunately died in 2004.) Neil & Pegi also have a daughter who has epilepsy, which Neil himself also has. ( source, Wikipedia.)

I'm tired of researching and writing. Neil Young is ace in my book, both as a man and as a musician. Just like the rest of us, I'm sure he has his failings. He registers pretty high on the credibility meter with me. I'd have to place him above Moz on such a meter. Morrissey still rates higher than him on my favorite musical artists of all-time list. Last time I thought about such a list, Neil Young was 12th. The Smiths were 5th. Morrissey was number 1 on my list. That's the reason I came to Morrissey-Solo. Morrissey is still number 1 today.


-here are two classic cuts from "Le Noise" (2010)....


"Hitchhiker" by Neil Young



-This song is autobiographical.




"Love and War" by Neil Young



-Absolutely beautiful.

Absolutely agree. Neil is a legend.

 

[Anonymous]

You really expect any of us to believe that Moz is handed a finished melody and then just adds the words to it?

 

[Charlie Cheswick]

Never got Neil Young either.

Johnny Cash bucked the trend a bit but I can't think of another musician that was making music as good as he got older as he was making when he was younger. Someone said Mark E Smith, he's not really wavered much over the years, not my bag but he's kept his standards. If I wasn't into Morrissey when he was in The Smiths I sure as f*** wouldn't be in to him now. Nothing against what he's doing now but I don't think it's better .

All the others on here, NONE are making better music than when they were young and most are a f*** sight worse and some were shit to begin with.

 

[troubleluvsme]

Better yet, why don't you go ride your bike off a cliff.

Your effort is improving.
I thought that your keyboard looked something like this...

 

[Skylarker]

Of course the truth is more than likely a little less cut and dry.
Morrissey clearly has an influence on the collaborators he works with that goes beyond the simple writing of the lyrics.
For me the evidence of this is his past collaborators lack of visibility post Moz and the melodic tropes that persist throughout his work.
This is not definitive evidence but then again, what do any us know?

You do understand that coming up with a vocal melody that is suggested (even if it is a countermelody) by pre-existing music does not actually constitute "songwriting"...yes? You do understand that how Paul Weller sat down on his bed one shitty Saturday morning and wrote "That's Entertainment" from start to finish in 5 minutes is something Morrissey could never do...yes?

I think we're talking about different people here. I am referring to Steven Morrissey, late of the The Smiths - the idea that no tunes enter his mind is just silly. Of course melodies must bounce around his head. You really expect any of us to believe that Moz is handed a finished melody and then just adds the words to it?

Show me the part where I said he didn't come up with a vocal melody that corresponds to music he is presented with beforehand. Also please show me the interview with any of his musical collaborators where they talk about the day Morrissey came in and whistled a tune to them, and they transcribed the notes.

Even True To You confirmed that Moz writes melodies in their fan questions and answer thing.

Really? He "writes" melodies? Are you sure? From scratch? You sure?

He might not know much about traditional notation but as a singer he's heavily influential in the final melody. You are basically calling Morrissey a cabaret singer, crooning other people's songs.

Finally you say something not entirely insipid...

Most likely Mozza, after 30 years in the business, composes melodies using a guitar or a piano and using a basic letter notation. You don't spend 30 years in music and never learn the basic chords on a guitar, mate, it just doesn't happen!

I'm starting to think you're a troll. Nobody can possibly be that genuinely ignorant on this subject...

 

[Deleted member 1074]

You do understand that coming up with a vocal melody that is suggested (even if it is a countermelody) by pre-existing music does not actually constitute "songwriting"...yes? You do understand that how Paul Weller sat down on his bed one shitty Saturday morning and wrote "That's Entertainment" from start to finish in 5 minutes is something Morrissey could never do...yes?

It would be like giving an editing credit to a test audience that has convinced the studio to change the ending of their film...

I'm starting to think you're a troll. Nobody can possibly be that genuinely ignorant on this subject...

Actually, I think most Morrissey fans are genuinely ignorant regarding Morrissey...why else would they still be fans?