Putin's takeover of the Ukraine, what should be done?

the Ukraine, what should we do?

  • root for Putin! it his "god given" right to re-establish Czarist Russia!

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • European approach; empty words, but in the end let him get away with it

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • American approach; act first, think later, maybe make it worse

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • somewhere in between option 2 and 3, if that is even possible, but time is of the essence

    Votes: 8 53.3%
  • I don't care, I prefer to keep my head in the sand

    Votes: 2 13.3%

  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .

Oh my god. it's Robby!

spontaneously luminescent
141889_600.jpg

obviously, I am biased, I have seen post-Soviet Russian tyranny first hand :straightface:
it still could destroy the world if left unchecked :(
 
Nothing you can do Robby. Check Georgia.

Putin's a complete tyrant who's armed to the teeth with probably the most powerful army in the World.

It's a simple case of the biggest boy on the block being one of the most dangerous. Unless everyone else just cut them off, which they won't, there's not a lot else that can be done.
 
Putin will do as he wishes. I'm watching his press conference now. His body language screams f*** you.

The EU has a lot to answer for here, as does Obama, whose "let's all be mates" approach to geopolitics proves that a weak US President is a very dangerous thing.

The Chinese must be watching with some fascination. They've condemned Putin's actions, but are sure to be eyeing those disputed islands with renewed interest.
 
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I've been to Russia twice. The western side and then the far east. Both time being there I was amazed by the sheer number of personnel in the armed forces and the constant sight of police and armed forces everywhere. Coming from New Zealand which no longer has a combat wing of the air force I nearly wet myself when two fighter jets buzzed over Vladivostok.

Russia was humiliated after the collapse of the Soviet Union. From then on Putin is doing everything he can to restore Russia to it's former glory. He's lost nearly all this allies apart from Belorussia, some 'Stans in central Asia. Russia doesn't give a flying fig what the rest of the world thinks. As soon as it all kicked off in Ukraine I knew he would go in to protect Russian Nationals. America has shifted its focus to the Pacific but I think that was the wrong move. Russia will keep Crimea and may advance into pro-Russian areas of southern Ukriane, but will stop there. I laughed when John Kerry said "You just can't go around invading countries these days" It could be said that Russia has a more valid reason for taking back land which was once theirs.
 
I've been to Russia twice. The western side and then the far east. Both time being there I was amazed by the sheer number of personnel in the armed forces and the constant sight of police and armed forces everywhere. Coming from New Zealand which no longer has a combat wing of the air force I nearly wet myself when two fighter jets buzzed over Vladivostok.

Russia was humiliated after the collapse of the Soviet Union. From then on Putin is doing everything he can to restore Russia to it's former glory. He's lost nearly all this allies apart from Belorussia, some 'Stans in central Asia. Russia doesn't give a flying fig what the rest of the world thinks. As soon as it all kicked off in Ukraine I knew he would go in to protect Russian Nationals. America has shifted its focus to the Pacific but I think that was the wrong move. Russia will keep Crimea and may advance into pro-Russian areas of southern Ukriane, but will stop there. I laughed when John Kerry said "You just can't go around invading countries these days" It could be said that Russia has a more valid reason for taking back land which was once theirs.


I think you're making the mistake of believing anything that comes out of Russia.
 
Putin will do as he wishes. I'm watching his press conference now. His body language screams f*** you.

The EU has a lot to answer for here, as does Obama, whose "let's all be mates" approach to geopolitics proves that a weak US President is a very dangerous thing.

The Chinese must be watching with some fascination. They've condemned Putin's actions, but are sure to be eyeing those disputed islands with renewed interest.

Agreed.
 
it is, kind of, amazing how many American right wingers seem to love a corrupt ex-Commie KGB officer whose grampa was first Lenin then Stalin's
swedish%20chef.jpg

cook :eek:

 
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it is, kind of, amazing how many American right wingers seem to love a corrupt ex-Commie KGB officer whose grampa was first Lenin then Stalin's:eek:

I think it is as simple as Putin being a strong leader whose first and abiding principle is what he sees as being best for Russia. I'm sorry to say the West doesn't have anyone remotely like that at the moment. Obama, Cameron, Hollande, Merkel, are varying shades of centre to centre left liberal, although Cameron pretends he's a Tory. In an historical "what if?" and God forbid those four were anywhere near the decision to sanction the D-Day landings we'd still be sat in the south coast harbours wondering if Hitler is really all that bad? Here in the UK there are a substantial number of people who suspect British politicians put Britain's interests last, in part due the hangover of Empire.

I talked earlier in this thread about geopolitics. I think in some ways perhaps even something that complex eventually comes down to the sorts of interactions we have in daily life. Many of us will have had an issue with someone where in the end you have to put your cards on the table and say, look, if you do this, this will happen. Some of us will have said such a thing to someone so nuts you have no choice but to carry out that threat, because they are either too stupid or too confident in their position to back down.

None of us will now know what might have happened if the US had moved a carrier fleet into the Aegean, or if NATO suddenly decided to hold military manoeuvres near the Polish border. Perhaps Putin might have held off a little. A video emerged last night of a train of Russian tanks moving towards Kharkiv. A worrying development. Putin's international strength lies in his domestic power. The Duma rubber stamp his decisions on the nod.

In the end, in world politics as in daily life, you have to ask yourself a question. "If you're not in control, who is?" The problem with the West, post Iraq and Afghanistan, is that by withdrawing from world affairs even by a slight degree you embolden those who would rather like to take your place.

I doubt Ukraine will be the last issue of this kind we have in some of the younger democracies. They don't seem to
have fully grasped the idea that you vote, and then you are stuck with that lot until you vote again. It was telling that those on the streets were largely younger people. Yanukovych may have been a prick, may even have sought to change certain rules to suit himself, but unless and until he suspends democracy technically he is still the legally constituted President. That's the way democracy works. I would suggest a similar situation on the streets of London, Paris, Berlin or Washington DC might well end in a perhaps less bloody, but broadly comparable manner. Those guys in uniform we send off to foreign lands to defend our interests are only "our boys " up to a point. There would be little doubt which side of the barricades they'll be on come the day.

My guess is that after the Crimean referendum, it will move back under Russia's wing, and hopefully that will be that. When Georgia started the South Ossetia conflict Putin went down there and gave them a slap, and stayed in SO and Abkhazia to protect those territories. He could have moved on Tbilisi and didn't. Luckily one if the things Russia isn't short of is land. With a bit of luck the same thing will happen in this instance.

BTW: It's worth torrenting a BBC four part documentary from a couple of years ago called, "Putin, Russia and the West". It's a fascinating series, and after watching it it is hard not to have a grudging admiration for Putin.
 
I think you've hit on something with Afghanistan and Iraq. Those were massive mistakes and have just undermined us as a military power because the government managed to lose the backing of its people.

Disagree a bit on your point on democracy, a democratic leader is there to represent his people, something that gets a bit lost in modern democracies. When your leader's incapable of representing you then it's fine to demand change early, mid term elections aren't unheard of.

Our last leader of the ilk of Putin was Thatcher. It's just a case of where most leaders have a line that they won't cross certain leaders don't give a damn. This can be dangerous if you get two of them meeting each other but when there's only one then you've got a leader that's put his country in a very strong position. As my father in law says, Putin's bad for everyone else but great for Russia. I don't admire him though, he's lucky in that he's got no serious opposition. If the US had leader of a similar kind it'd have ended in catastrophe.
 
had a well thought out response written, f***in Solo ate it :mad:
not the first time that has happened, getting a bit sick of it to be honest :straightface:
some good posts above though :thumb:
but I gotta say, I don't believe leaders like Putin are good even for their own people in the long run
and maybe especially in a place like Russia, where the natural tendency is already towards chauvinism, sexism, racism, f***, all those sort of "isms" :rolleyes:
for a while it might appear they are "expanding again" but this will undoubtedly be followed by an even worse collapse then before
basically a shit leader like Putin puts them back another 20 years, Russia of 2035 will look back on this time period as what could have been
unless they overthrow scum like Putin and replace him with a forward thinking leader
I don't think its too late yet, but if it is, and they wake up the "white trash country of Eurasia" well, they will have no one to blame but themselves and their love for a chest pounding leader :crazy:
its just gonna be sad if they are going to be allowed to pull other countries like the Ukraine down with them :cool:
 
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I think it is as simple as Putin being a strong leader whose first and abiding principle is what he sees as being best for Russia. I'm sorry to say the West doesn't have anyone remotely like that at the moment. Obama, Cameron, Hollande, Merkel, are varying shades of centre to centre left liberal, although Cameron pretends he's a Tory. In an historical "what if?" and God forbid those four were anywhere near the decision to sanction the D-Day landings we'd still be sat in the south coast harbours wondering if Hitler is really all that bad? Here in the UK there are a substantial number of people who suspect British politicians put Britain's interests last, in part due the hangover of Empire.

I talked earlier in this thread about geopolitics. I think in some ways perhaps even something that complex eventually comes down to the sorts of interactions we have in daily life. Many of us will have had an issue with someone where in the end you have to put your cards on the table and say, look, if you do this, this will happen. Some of us will have said such a thing to someone so nuts you have no choice but to carry out that threat, because they are either too stupid or too confident in their position to back down.

None of us will now know what might have happened if the US had moved a carrier fleet into the Aegean, or if NATO suddenly decided to hold military manoeuvres near the Polish border. Perhaps Putin might have held off a little. A video emerged last night of a train of Russian tanks moving towards Kharkiv. A worrying development. Putin's international strength lies in his domestic power. The Duma rubber stamp his decisions on the nod.

In the end, in world politics as in daily life, you have to ask yourself a question. "If you're not in control, who is?" The problem with the West, post Iraq and Afghanistan, is that by withdrawing from world affairs even by a slight degree you embolden those who would rather like to take your place.

I doubt Ukraine will be the last issue of this kind we have in some of the younger democracies. They don't seem to
have fully grasped the idea that you vote, and then you are stuck with that lot until you vote again. It was telling that those on the streets were largely younger people. Yanukovych may have been a prick, may even have sought to change certain rules to suit himself, but unless and until he suspends democracy technically he is still the legally constituted President. That's the way democracy works. I would suggest a similar situation on the streets of London, Paris, Berlin or Washington DC might well end in a perhaps less bloody, but broadly comparable manner. Those guys in uniform we send off to foreign lands to defend our interests are only "our boys " up to a point. There would be little doubt which side of the barricades they'll be on come the day.

My guess is that after the Crimean referendum, it will move back under Russia's wing, and hopefully that will be that. When Georgia started the South Ossetia conflict Putin went down there and gave them a slap, and stayed in SO and Abkhazia to protect those territories. He could have moved on Tbilisi and didn't. Luckily one if the things Russia isn't short of is land. With a bit of luck the same thing will happen in this instance.

BTW: It's worth torrenting a BBC four part documentary from a couple of years ago called, "Putin, Russia and the West". It's a fascinating series, and after watching it it is hard not to have a grudging admiration for Putin.

Well said.
I couldn't agree with you more.
 
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