How Morrissey fans made me stop being a Morrissey fan!

Re: How Morrissey fans made me. stop being a Morrissey fan!

I actually agree, with the general thrust regarding Morrisseys becoming less interesting since he started catering for the North/South American audience.
Its seems he dumbed down and things became less interesting. The reason he does give the Americans so much time is money, in the main. The sad fact is since his return, it's mainly been about money over art.
Also, the audience in the Americans are less in the know in regards to what moz is about, to be kind...Although in truth they are just ( in general) less,intelligent.
I would never go to a moz gig in America simply because of the fans.
Moz likes America and some Americans but he knows their limitations.
He used to be about so much more than a singer..now he gives the bare minimum.
When performing in America I have often seen him mock Americans.
Again, he isnt being cruel, just aware of what his American audience are like.
I think if moz didnt have his slavish " oh look at my moz and johnny " tattoos. To rely on I think he would be less lazy and be more intresting in person and in song

Thanks for your honesty and sharing the way you feel. I see that others hate you for it and they are people who claim to be liberal and open minded people. It is a subject that will divide people but I guess you and me were there in the early days and have seen the change that you describe so well. That is the reality for me and you and others may feel differently.

I think americans need for an artist with something more to say drove them to worship Morrissey. It is as if american music and society on a whole is unable to come up with artists that have a real message. Just as with Hollywood americans have to look abroad for talent and genuine people with a proper message. Morrissey had indeed shown his contempt for his american fans but it seems they are not clever enough to get his very english sense of humour which was always based on slagging people off but in a very intellectual way.

Thanks again for your thoughtful and intelligent addition to this debate.
 
Re: How Morrissey fans made me. stop being a Morrissey fan!

Thanks for your honesty and sharing the way you feel. I see that others hate you for it and they are people who claim to be liberal and open minded people. It is a subject that will divide people but I guess you and me were there in the early days and have seen the change that you describe so well. That is the reality for me and you and others may feel differently.

I think americans need for an artist with something more to say drove them to worship Morrissey. It is as if american music and society on a whole is unable to come up with artists that have a real message. Just as with Hollywood americans have to look abroad for talent and genuine people with a proper message. Morrissey had indeed shown his contempt for his american fans but it seems they are not clever enough to get his very english sense of humour which was always based on slagging people off but in a very intellectual way.

Thanks again for your thoughtful and intelligent addition to this debate.

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Some of us collect The Smiths/Morrissey vinyl, cassettes, cds, etc and some of us just see signs.
For the record, my motives for collecting are nothing to do with financial gain, every single item I own has been opened and played (except for the Rank DAT and a few Japanese LDs ).
I don't expect you to understand, but thanks for the diagnosis anyway doc.
All these years not knowing what was wrong with me, and the answer was here all along.

All sorted, then, our love?
The sun is shinin, you're feelin fine and the birds are singin in the trees!
Those with extensive hours clocked reclining on a therapist's chair make the best pseudo-psychiatrists!
Have their own copies of the DSM-IV!
As a former med student, I can tell you, in psych and pathology, you diagnose everyone you know with an associative disorder, which in everyday lingo is just called a personality, and you diagnose yourself with every disease you study.
Never heard it applied to record collecting though.
Maybe a new category can be created!
 
Agree with self-diagnosis when reading the DSM IV!
But I believe the avid collectors (I include myself) are demonstrating quite a well known behavioural pattern.
These types of behaviours are often indexed to the autistic spectrum.
There is good research to support the notion that obsessives are simply showing they have an element of that type of 'wiring'.
Before I am flogged for implying some sort of negative view of collectors - it is actually a compliment!
This is definitely high end thinking and shows sophistication in intelligence!
That's how I justify 10+ copies of Kill Uncle at least! ;)
Regards,
FWD
 
Agree with self-diagnosis when reading the DSM IV!
But I believe the avid collectors (I include myself) are demonstrating quite a well known behavioural pattern.
These types of behaviours are often indexed to the autistic spectrum.
There is good research to support the notion that obsessives are simply showing they have an element of that type of 'wiring'.
Before I am flogged for implying some sort of negative view of collectors - it is actually a compliment!
This is definitely high end thinking and shows sophistication in intelligence!
That's how I justify 10+ copies of Kill Uncle at least! ;)
Regards,
FWD

Where in the DSM IV or any other medical book is autism and its spectrum of related disorders associated with high end thinking and intelligence? And what exactly is high end thinking anyway?
 
Oh dear! I know its an emotive term but you really need me to explain?
Autism is a spectrum with high and low ends of cognitive ability/function.
For low - see people rocking in their own world. For high- see Einstein and aspergers.
The cognitive processes required in what we are discussing are sophisticated and not what people picture the 'disorder' to be.
I have worked as a behaviourist for many years and can assure you my light-hearted reply regarding obsessive collecting and traits it might be linked to was exactly that - light hearted. I was not as clearly put saying people who collect have autism - just a similar set of behavioural patterns.
I don't think the chemical breakdown, supporting evidence and references are needed.
The DSM was not cited to support my view.
I think there is enough info online to perhaps challenge your view that autism has no high functioning aspects but thats your educational journey , not mine!
Regards,
FWD
(This might be one of those classic lost in translation moments of UK/USA? But here aspergers is called high functioning autism. Perhaps next debate - the US and its poor record on researching and managing people with any ASD? Maybe not! My hairspray isn't flame retardant).
 
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Oh dear! I know its an emotive term but you really need me to explain?
Autism is a spectrum with high and low ends of cognitive ability/function.
For low - see people rocking in their own world. For high- see Einstein and aspergers.
The cognitive processes required in what we are discussing are sophisticated and not what people picture the 'disorder' to be.
I have worked as a behaviourist for many years and can assure you my light-hearted reply regarding obsessive collecting and traits it might be linked to was exactly that - light hearted. I was not as clearly put saying people who collect have autism - just a similar set of behavioural patterns.
I don't think the chemical breakdown, supporting evidence and references are needed.
The DSM was not cited to support my view.
I think there is enough info online to perhaps challenge your view that autism has no high functioning aspects but thats your educational journey , not mine!
Regards,
FWD
(This might be one of those classic lost in translation moments of UK/USA? But here aspergers is called high functioning autism. Perhaps next debate - the US and its poor record on researching and managing people with any ASD? Maybe not! My hairspray isn't flame retardant).

You're funny. :)

I am not a behaviorist but I have read a fair share about this disorder. There are autistics who do exhibit high functioning abilities especially in the area of abstract thinking.

But they often lack verbal abilities and emotional intelligence (if there really is such a thing). Twenty-five to seventy-five percent are classified as mentally retarded.

Why does collecting look like high end thinking and sophistication in intelligence? Because it's data centered and orderly?

PS--It is my understanding that Aspergers will no longer be a separate diagnosis in the DSM V.
 
You're[/url] funny. :)

I am not a behaviorist but I have read a fair share about this disorder. There are autistics who do exhibit high functioning abilities especially in the area of abstract thinking.

But they often lack verbal abilities and emotional intelligence (if there really is such a thing). Twenty-five to seventy-five percent are classified as mentally retarded.

Why does collecting look like high end thinking and sophistication in intelligence? Because it's data centered and orderly?

PS--It is my understanding that Aspergers will no longer be a separate diagnosis in the DSM V.

Well you are right about the DSM V.
However, certainly here, it is viewed as a device to justify a psychiatrist's choice of diagnosis and drug regime.
Psychologists dont rely so heavily on said!
The type of autism u relate in the UK would be established at 80iq points or lower.
But remember we are talking about obsessive collectors and autistic-like traits not someone in a chair who rocks all day and becomes aggressive if you don't buy them a Moz Japanese 3" cd!
Have a look here for some very functional and communicative 'autistic' people:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_autism_spectrum_disorders
I would assert the mental process required to understand the abstract concept of collecting music by Moz uses brain chemistry, intellectual bandwidth and a set of concepts that your 'retarded' example does not have.
A stereotypical autistic example wouldn't grasp even the concepts of data or order so your own logic reinforces my view that its a sophisticated thought process!
I really would recommend reading up on anything by Temple Granding.
http://templegrandin.com/
Who is a Doctor with autism and a leading advocate.
I must thank you, this dialogue is much better than the usual who bought what colour rose debate
But I really must off as I have a dry white wine calling me which will probably render me rocking in a chair also!
Regards,
FWD
(ps 'retarded' here is the psychiatric equivalent of the 'n' word and is beyond taboo).
 
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Well you are right about the DSM V.
However, certainly here, it is viewed as a device to justify a psychiatrist's choice of diagnosis and drug regime.
Psychologists dont rely so heavily on said!
The type of autism u relate in the UK would be established at 80iq points or lower.
But remember we are talking about obsessive collectors and autistic-like traits not someone in a chair who rocks all day and becomes aggressive if you don't buy them a Moz Japanese 3" cd!
Have a look here for some very functional and communicative 'autistic' people:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_autism_spectrum_disorders
I would assert the mental process required to understand the abstract concept of collecting music by Moz uses brain chemistry, intellectual bandwidth and a set of concepts that your 'retarded' example does not have.
A stereotypical autistic example wouldn't grasp even the concepts of data or order so your own logic reinforces my view that its a sophisticated thought process!
I really would recommend reading up on anything by Temple Granding.
http://templegrandin.com/
Who is a Doctor with autism and a leading advocate.
I must thank you, this dialogue is much better than the usual who bought what colour rose debate
But I really must off as I have a dry white wine calling me which will probably render me rocking in a chair also!
Regards,
FWD
(ps 'retarded' here is the psychiatric equivalent of the 'n' word and is beyond taboo).

I don't have time to respond properly now. But I just wanted to let you know that I am aware that the term retarded has been branded politically incorrect. However, the definition of the word still fits the diagnosis. Developmentally disabled is the preferred term these days.
 
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I don't have time to respond properly now. But I just wanted to let you know that I am aware that the term rear retarded has been branded politically incorrect. However, the definition of the word still fits the diagnosis. Developmentally disabled is the preferred term these days.

Psht. That's retarded. :D
 
Psht. That's retarded. :D
Even I raised a smile at this!
I hate political correctness, but in this case - I think I take the view that it is an inappropriate term as its etymology is from the French meaning 'slow'.
To describe people who are 'differently abled' (lol an american p.c. term) as 'slow' is a little unfair!
Most of the rest of the world are more used to the term being applied as a suffixe to medication - namely slow release.
All this typing is preventing me from re-cataloging my collection. Must dash.
Regards,
FWD
 
Well you are right about the DSM V.
However, certainly here, it is viewed as a device to justify a psychiatrist's choice of diagnosis and drug regime.
Psychologists dont rely so heavily on said!
The type of autism u relate in the UK would be established at 80iq points or lower.
But remember we are talking about obsessive collectors and autistic-like traits not someone in a chair who rocks all day and becomes aggressive if you don't buy them a Moz Japanese 3" cd!
Have a look here for some very functional and communicative 'autistic' people:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_autism_spectrum_disorders
I would assert the mental process required to understand the abstract concept of collecting music by Moz uses brain chemistry, intellectual bandwidth and a set of concepts that your 'retarded' example does not have.
A stereotypical autistic example wouldn't grasp even the concepts of data or order so your own logic reinforces my view that its a sophisticated thought process!
I really would recommend reading up on anything by Temple Granding.
http://templegrandin.com/
Who is a Doctor with autism and a leading advocate.
I must thank you, this dialogue is much better than the usual who bought what colour rose debate
But I really must off as I have a dry white wine calling me which will probably render me rocking in a chair also!
Regards,
FWD
(ps 'retarded' here is the psychiatric equivalent of the 'n' word and is beyond taboo).

I am familiar with Temple Grandin and her work regarding humane slaughter practices/design. Have you seen the made for TV biography starring Claire Danes? I haven't. But it is supposed to be good.

Do you collect many things? Are you obsessive about other things besides music?

Do you think collecting obsessively is more similar to the behaviors associated with autism or OCD?
 
You're funny. :)

I am not a behaviorist but I have read a fair share about this disorder. There are autistics who do exhibit high functioning abilities especially in the area of abstract thinking.

But they often lack verbal abilities and emotional intelligence (if there really is such a thing). Twenty-five to seventy-five percent are classified as mentally retarded.

Why does collecting look like high end thinking and sophistication in intelligence? Because it's data centered and orderly?

PS--It is my understanding that Aspergers will no longer be a separate diagnosis in the DSM V.

Psychology is a theory and not a science so you are wrong as usual but we are getting used to that by now. I have read about people in isolated areas becoming stupid as time goes by even though they have books and internet and tv. Are you one of those?
Just a theory of course as everything with the mind is as it can never become science.
 
Psychology is a theory and not a science so you are wrong as usual but we are getting used to that by now. I have read about people in isolated areas becoming stupid as time goes by even though they have books and internet and tv. Are you one of those?
Just a theory of course as everything with the mind is as it can never become science.

Odd then, that the scientific study of the nervous system, including the brain (mind), is called neuroscience. :rolleyes:
 
Odd then, that the scientific study of the nervous system, including the brain (mind), is called neuroscience. :rolleyes:

Very apt. And my religion, Scientology, and my mother's, Christian Science, are other examples of this. And then you have the social sciences, which Dawkins says are bullshit but he's a f***ing atheist.
 
Very apt. And my religion, Scientology, and my mother's, Christian Science, are other examples of this. And then you have the social sciences, which Dawkins says are bullshit but he's a f***ing atheist.

Well if you truly knew anything about Scientology and Christian Science then you would know very well why these religions hijacked the word science, now wouldn't ya, genius?
 
Well if you truly knew anything about Scientology and Christian Science then you would know very well why these religions hijacked the word science, now wouldn't ya, genius?

The post was actually (and obviously) a joke.

If you "knew anything," by the way, you would know that the brain vs mind debate occupied science for centuries, and "mind" is now accepted as synonymous with consciousness and the subconscious, not with the "machine"--the brain--which runs these "programs." (See for example Dennett, of course, of whom you've heard via your Hitchens worship.) Your gloss on the matter was ignorant and flat-out false.

This is very basic stuff commonly found in the sort of academic-subjects-for-total-lunkheads works you're so proud of having stacked, a whole one-and-a-half feet high, in your home. I'm surprised.
 
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