Atheism Thread

[CrystalGeezer]

This whole paragraph is so fraught with ignorance that I don't know where to begin.

I suspect you are unable to answer my questions because you don't know the answers.

I'm not convinced, no. Sounds like a self-assigned title, ascribed to excuse sloppy communication skills.

My Boss disagrees. You should listen to the song again. Every lyric.

 

[realitybites]

I suspect you are unable to answer my questions because you don't know the answers.

What questions did I fail to answer? Can you use Google? It is not my job to educate you about Dawkins' and Hitchens' credentials. Anybody who is familiar with them and who has also read my blog, knows I know my stuff. If you educate yourself first, I'd be willing to pick up this discussion again. If you want to know my fave books by both... and I have read dozens... The Magic of Reality and The God Delusion by Dawkins. And god is Not Great and The Missionary Position by Hitchens.

As far as all your name dropping of philosophers goes, none of the ones you mentioned are my intellectual heroes. Even Nietzsche was flawed. I only referenced him regarding my comment about playing to win... a nod to his concept 'will to power.' But it was lost on you.

My Boss disagrees. You should listen to the song again. Every lyric.

Your boss... the over-privileged, under-stimulated lady of luxury you house-sit for? Who pays people to buff the dead skin off her feet, read her astrological charts, and entertain her with flights of fancy?

 

[CrystalGeezer]

This whole paragraph is so fraught with ignorance that I don't know where to begin.

I am very surprised that you have no clue who Richard Dawkins is or how respected he is in the global scientific community. He IS the most well published zoologist on the planet... from scientific journals to best selling books. He is an evolutionary biologist by trade who just happens to be the most famous atheist alive. He had nothing to do with the Iraq war.

The late Christopher Hitchens was a journalist by trade who was also a passionate anti-theist and is regarded to be one of the most important and influential public intellectuals of the 20th century. He was loved by many. Respected by almost all who knew him--even his detractors. He did have an opinion about the Iraq war. He was an interventionist who believed in democracy and was a fierce anti-totalitarianist--much like his hero George Orwell. His support of the invasion of Iraq was consistent with these views. He, like Dawkins, has published hundreds of articles and dozens of books... some best sellers.


Again, your ignorance regarding these two brilliant men is astonishing. Before you jump in the pool you should at least know something about water, no?

And as far as your opinion of me goes, you are free to think as you wish. But I don't need to have a reason for having an opinion. Nor a title or credentials to justify why I should share it. I'm alive. I am a human capable of expressing myself. That is a good enough reason right there.

There is no place on this thread for discussion of my boss.

 

[realitybites]

There is no place on this thread for discussion of my boss.

What does that mean? I wonder what lyrics you will use to answer?

If you are saying we have no right to talk about your boss here, then why did you bring her up? Or is that not what you mean? I guess I'll have to wait for the lyrics.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

What does that mean? I wonder what lyrics you will use to answer?

If you are saying we have no right to talk about your boss here, then why did you bring her up? Or is that not what you mean? I guess I'll have to wait for the lyrics.

Meh. Don't really care anymore. Have a nice night.

 

[realitybites]

Meh. Don't really care anymore. Have a nice night.

You too.

 

[Skylarker]

This sounds like projecting to me. Honestly, I have never in my life tried to be different. I don't sand against the grain. I'm quite average and normal and don't stand out from the crowd in any way. And mostly I avoid drawing attention to myself. If I ever voice a strong opinion or get into a debate, it is more because it's a means to an end... the end being a greater understanding. I love learning. But reading books is not enough. Healthy intellectual interaction is a much fuller and richer way to gain insight into the human condition. I am a curious person. And I love learning. That is my motive. Not the things you stated.

This was a bit vague. So I'll try to fill in the blanks. Do you mean that I think that non-atheists are clueless? No. The clues are there for the taking. The information is out there. They just don't want to embrace it for some reason. I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink. I interact with people daily who have radically different views about religion than mine. Live and let live. I don't dislike them. Do I want them for best friends? No. I prefer my own company to theirs. But they are free to see the world as they see it. Doesn't mean I agree with them or can't be critical of their views.

I am passionate about reason and science. Thus I am concerned about the things that stand in the way of these things... like religion and pseudoscience. And yes, I will fight the enemies of reason with my dying breath. I don't thing that is a bad thing to fight for. Someone has to do it. If someone hadn't, we'd still be living in the dark ages with alchemists, astrologists, and witch doctors.

Alright, well, have fun with all that.

 

[nothappynotsad]

Alright, well, have fun with all that.

Dude, why are you being unkind to someone who has always been nothing but pleasant with you?

 

[Skylarker]

Dude, why are you being unkind to someone who has always been nothing but pleasant with you?

I have nothing but respect for Realitybites' intellect and I think she's a wonderful person...but I have some problems with her atheism schtick. And yes, saying shtick is a bit condescending, but on a serious note; I would be like that with anyone who adheres that strongly to atheism.

It's not a personal attack on the person who posts as Realitybites...who, when I talk to her privately, NEVER brings up atheism and we get along beautifully. But I have a lot of problems with the atheism dogma thing she does here in public. Maybe I shouldn't care. She's entitled to her views.

I realize it comes off as kind of shitty of me; certain things I say to her, but it really isn't meant to hurt her feelings, and it shouldn't. But I don't like her views and I don't like the way she expresses an implied intellectual superiority based solely on the fact that she does not believe in God. I do not feel I have been over the line or disrespectful in my public disagreements with her on the subject.

Having said that; she's a very articulate, funny girl who is very smart and I have enjoyed many conversations with her.

But yeah, sometimes -as Realitybites- she gets on my nerves.

 

[Peterb]

How can anybody know, one way or the other? All these debates ever amount to is a theist-atheist pissing contest because no side can prove anything they're saying.

The difference though, Amy, is that, if one is a theist, if they want to engage in debate, surely they have something to prove. Rationalists
do not need to disprove gods existence any more than they need to disprove the existence of the Smurfs.

 

[Peterb]

What questions did I fail to answer? Can you use Google? It is not my job to educate you about Dawkins' and Hitchens' credentials. Anybody who is familiar with them and who has also read my blog, knows I know my stuff. If you educate yourself first, I'd be willing to pick up this discussion again. If you want to know my fave books by both... and I have read dozens... The Magic of Reality and The God Delusion by Dawkins. And god is Not Great and The Missionary Position by Hitchens.

As far as all your name dropping of philosophers goes, none of the ones you mentioned are my intellectual heroes. Even Nietzsche was flawed. I only referenced him regarding my comment about playing to win... a nod to his concept 'will to power.' But it was lost on you.



Your boss... the over-privileged, under-stimulated lady of luxury you house-sit for? Who pays people to buff the dead skin off her feet, read her astrological charts, and entertain her with flights of fancy?

Hey there RealityBites! You are doing a fine job here. I see no problem in tackling the issue seriously here. It is a thread about atheism, so ofcourse you are going take it seriously and argue our point with vigour.

 

[realitybites]

I have nothing but respect for Realitybites' intellect and I think she's a wonderful person...but I have some problems with her atheism schtick. And yes, saying shtick is a bit condescending, but on a serious note; I would be like that with anyone who adheres that strongly to atheism.

Being an atheist isn't a shtick. It isn't a performance or a mask I put on when I post on Solo or other online communities. It is a part of me wherever I go. And it it a paradigm that acts as a map for my actions and thoughts. It shapes everything I do and think. It is never separated from me. It shapes what movies I watch and enjoy, what books I chose to read, what news items I focus on, and how I vote. Call me a crashing bore, but I am a dyed-in-the-wool atheist, much in the same way that a Jewish person raised by orthodox parents in Brooklyn is a dyed-in-the-wool Jew.

It's not a personal attack on the person who posts as Realitybites...who, when I talk to her privately, NEVER brings up atheism and we get along beautifully.

That is because I am not a one trick pony. I have other interests besides religion and philosophy. You and I have talked about music, mostly. That is probably your number one area of interest/expertise. And I have enjoyed our conversations very much. I have other friends here with whom I do speak with about atheism. Because they are atheists as well. I, like most people, vary my conversations depending on whom I am conversing. Just like you talk about certain things with your kids, other things with your male buddies, and still different things with your girlfriend. But there are certain things that stay in the background at all times... your political views, religious beliefs, beliefs about yourself. They may not be the topics of the discussion, but they shape the content you contribute. I talk about atheism in my blog. But I talk about so many more things. And for the most part, my talking about atheism has been limited to the Atheism Thread... except for a random quote, use of the A on my avatar... I am not incorporating my non-belief of a god into every post, anymore than you name drop Moz in every post. We are well-rounded people. This is a Morrissey fan site. But we are not robots who only live and breathe Morrissey. Same with atheism. There's more to life than atheism and Morrissey, ya know.

But I have a lot of problems with the atheism dogma thing she does here in public. Maybe I shouldn't care. She's entitled to her views.

What dogma? Dogma, by definition, is the official system of belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization. Atheism has no such thing. There is no code, handbook, set of values, doctrine... nothing. It simply means non-belief in a god(s). I post Hitchens and Dawkins videos because I love those guys and what they stand for. But not all atheists love Hitchens. And not all Hitchens fans are atheists. Some atheists love Dawkins but don't like Hitchens, etc.

I realize it comes off as kind of shitty of me; certain things I say to her, but it really isn't meant to hurt her feelings, and it shouldn't. But I don't like her views and I don't like the way she expresses an implied intellectual superiority based solely on the fact that she does not believe in God. I do not feel I have been over the line or disrespectful in my public disagreements with her on the subject.

Last night, Geezer and I were getting down and dirty. But I think there was an air of humor about it. Debates can get heated--even a little nasty. But at the end of the day, I have no hard feelings about CG regarding what we discussed. I don't feel superior to her in any way. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I have stated this before. If I put on some sort of 'superiority cloak' when discussing atheism in this thread, that may indeed be a type of shtick... in that it is a method or style of debate I employ. It may be likened to a peacock spreading his feathers to impress or intimidate the competition, or a puffer fish inflating his cheeks to appear larger than he is. Who doesn't do this when debating? Lawyers do it in the courtroom. Politicians do it at the podium. Preachers do it at the pulpit. Hitch was famous for the Hitch slap, whereby he'd basically leave his opponents lying in the dust... speechless... without any possibility of recovery in the debate. I have no such gifts--not even close. But, almost every single opponent of Hitchens' walked away from the debate with a modicum of respect for Hitch and his intellectual prowess. Even if they disagreed with his beliefs. Thus, I too can separate the person from the debate. I don't hate Geezer. I actually like the fact that she is willing to jump into the ring and discuss atheism. And not only that but so many other topics as well. She's a fighter. I love that about her. so I have no hard feelings for her. And I do hope she has none for me... at least not because we have different metaphysical beliefs.

But, am I not doing what I am supposed to do on this thread... discussing atheism? If I were trolling you... pushing my views on you in music threads, then I could see where this would be a problem. But like I said before, this is my turf... where I am comfortable or at home. Why should I have to apologize for acting as to be expected... and even required?

 

[realitybites]

Hey there RealityBites! You are doing a fine job here. I see no problem in tackling the issue seriously here. It is a thread about atheism, so ofcourse you are going take it seriously and argue our point with vigour.

Thanks Peterb. I appreciate that.

 

[Skylarker]

Being an atheist isn't a shtick. It isn't a performance or a mask I put on when I post on Solo or other online communities. It is a part of me wherever I go. And it it a paradigm that acts as a map for my actions and thoughts. It shapes everything I do and think. It is never separated from me. It shapes what movies I watch and enjoy, what books I chose to read, what news items I focus on, and how I vote. Call me a crashing bore, but I am a dyed-in-the-wool atheist, much in the same way that a Jewish person raised by orthodox parents in Brooklyn is a dyed-in-the-wool Jew.




That is because I am not a one trick pony. I have other interests besides religion and philosophy. You and I have talked about music, mostly. That is probably your number one area of interest/expertise. And I have enjoyed our conversations very much. I have other friends here with whom I do speak with about atheism. Because they are atheists as well. I, like most people, vary my conversations depending on whom I am conversing. Just like you talk about certain things with your kids, other things with your male buddies, and still different things with your girlfriend. But there are certain things that stay in the background at all times... your political views, religious beliefs, beliefs about yourself. They may not be the topics of the discussion, but they shape the content you contribute. I talk about atheism in my blog. But I talk about so many more things. And for the most part, my talking about atheism has been limited to the Atheism Thread... except for a random quote, use of the A on my avatar... I am not incorporating my non-belief of a god into every post, anymore than you name drop Moz in every post. We are well-rounded people. This is a Morrissey fan site. But we are not robots who only live and breathe Morrissey. Same with atheism. There's more to life than atheism and Morrissey, ya know.





What dogma? Dogma, by definition, is the official system of belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization. Atheism has no such thing. There is no code, handbook, set of values, doctrine... nothing. It simply means non-belief in a god(s). I post Hitchens and Dawkins videos because I love those guys and what they stand for. But not all atheists love Hitchens. And not all Hitchens fans are atheists. Some atheists love Dawkins but don't like Hitchens, etc.



Last night, Geezer and I were getting down and dirty. But I think there was an air of humor about it. Debates can get heated--even a little nasty. But at the end of the day, I have no hard feelings about CG regarding what we discussed. I don't feel superior to her in any way. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I have stated this before. If I put on some sort of 'superiority cloak' when discussing atheism in this thread, that may indeed be a type of shtick... in that it is a method or style of debate I employ. It may be likened to a peacock spreading his feathers to impress or intimidate the competition, or a puffer fish inflating his cheeks to appear larger than he is. Who doesn't do this when debating? Lawyers do it in the courtroom. Politicians do it at the podium. Preachers do it at the pulpit. Hitch was famous for the Hitch slap, whereby he'd basically leave his opponents lying in the dust... speechless... without any possibility of recovery in the debate. I have no such gifts--not even close. But, almost every single opponent of Hitchens' walked away from the debate with a modicum of respect for Hitch and his intellectual prowess. Even if they disagreed with his beliefs. Thus, I too can separate the person from the debate. I don't hate Geezer. I actually like the fact that she is willing to jump into the ring and discuss atheism. And not only that but so many other topics as well. She's a fighter. I love that about her. so I have no hard feelings for her. And I do hope she has none for me... at least not because we have different metaphysical beliefs.

But, am I not doing what I am supposed to do on this thread... discussing atheism? If I were trolling you... pushing my views on you in music threads, then I could see where this would be a problem. But like I said before, this is my turf... where I am comfortable or at home. Why should I have to apologize for acting as to be expected... and even required?

Jesus Christ...no one cares.

I answered a f***ing question for someone, and you write a thesis. This is unbearable.

I GET IT ALREADY: You are an atheist, atheism is an intrinsic part of you, you never leave home without it, etc etc.

Fine.

But it doesn't have a dogma because it is a dogma. "THERE IS NO GOD." That's the dogma.

Lather, rinse, repeat, make sure everyone knows, etc; anyone who believes in a god isn't "educated" or "intellectually evolved" enough, etc.

Fine.

You say tomato, I say annoying.

 

[realitybites]

Jesus Christ...no one cares.

I answered a f***ing question for someone, and you write a thesis. This is unbearable.

I GET IT ALREADY: You are an atheist, atheism is an intrinsic part of you, you never leave home without it, etc etc.

Fine.

But it doesn't have a dogma because it is a dogma. "THERE IS NO GOD." That's the dogma.

Lather, rinse, repeat, make sure everyone knows, etc; anyone who believes in a god isn't "educated" or "intellectually evolved" enough, etc.

Fine.

You say tomato, I say annoying.

I thought you'd relate to this... Here's your shtick...

 

[Skylarker]

I thought you'd relate to this... Here's your shtick...

Yeah...I don't know what that means.

Anyway...

Like I've said FAR more times than I've ever said anything caustic or antagonistic to you...I like you, I think you're a lovely person, based on far more than anything publicly viewable. But clearly this is becoming an issue and a source of contention and I truly have no desire to inadvertently push away another person with whom I formerly shared fun, amicable correspondence with.

I don't take back any views I've shared on atheism or atheists nor do I labor under the impression that anything I've said has kept you up at night...but I certainly am not interested in being seen as hostile to you, and apparently I don't know how to draw the line here between detached debate and personal offense.

So I'm going to drop this.

 

[realitybites]

Yeah...I don't know what that means.

Anyway...

Like I've said FAR more times than I've ever said anything caustic or antagonistic to you...I like you, I think you're a lovely person, based on far more than anything publicly viewable. But clearly this is becoming an issue and a source of contention and I truly have no desire to inadvertently push away another person with whom I formerly shared fun, amicable correspondence with.

I don't take back any views I've shared on atheism or atheists nor do I labor under the impression that anything I've said has kept you up at night...but I certainly am not interested in being seen as hostile to you, and apparently I don't know how to draw the line here between detached debate and personal offense.

So I'm going to drop this.

OK. Truce.

 

[billybu69]

"tomato"

 

[kip winger]

I think the better question is, "how can anyone care?"

Personally, I couldn't care less if anyone thought that Eve was created from Adam’s rib; that the world rests on the back of a turtle; that the Sun god rides around the earth in a fire chariot; etc. So long as it doesn't affect me. But therein lies the problem. I am affected on a practical level. Churches get tax exemptions to the tune of about $71 billion dollars per year... while they drain public-funded resources. While folks like you and me foot their bill. Further, national policies are often shaped by christians in this country (U.S.). Right to an abortion; right to contraception; right to have kinky, consensual sex; right to refuse medical treatment; right to die; right to buy booze on a Sunday; etc. These civil rights are constantly under attack. They also advance discrimination, e.g., Mormons spending ghastly sums in support of Prop 8 which is against gay-marriage. They favor institutionalized discrimination, which bleeds into the fabric of our society. And not to mention that they have attempted to thwart advances in science, e.g., stem-cell research, which obviously can save lives. And they want to teach creationism in science classes, and favor curriculum that oppose critical thinking. The aforementioned is just in the US alone. In present day. This doesn't even contemplate the malignancy that is fundamentalist Islam. Every time a TSA agent cups my 'nads when I go through airport security, I'm reminded what a blight on our existence they are. So you ask how can anyone care? I think the better question is, how could anyone not care?

 

[realitybites]

Personally, I couldn't care less if anyone thought that Eve was created from Adam’s rib; that the world rests on the back of a turtle; that the Sun god rides around the earth in a fire chariot; etc. So long as it doesn't affect me. But therein lies the problem. I am affected on a practical level. Churches get tax exemptions to the tune of about $71 billion dollars per year... while they drain public-funded resources. While folks like you and me foot their bill. Further, national policies are often shaped by christians in this country (U.S.). Right to an abortion; right to contraception; right to have kinky, consensual sex; right to refuse medical treatment; right to die; right to buy booze on a Sunday; etc. These civil rights are constantly under attack. They also advance discrimination, e.g., Mormons spending ghastly sums in support of Prop 8 which is against gay-marriage. They favor institutionalized discrimination, which bleeds into the fabric of our society. And not to mention that they have attempted to thwart advances in science, e.g., stem-cell research, which obviously can save lives. And they want to teach creationism in science classes, and favor curriculum that oppose critical thinking. The aforementioned is just in the US alone. In present day. This doesn't even contemplate the malignancy that is fundamentalist Islam. Every time a TSA agent cups my 'nads when I go through airport security, I'm reminded what a blight on our existence they are. So you ask how can anyone care? I think the better question is, how could anyone not care?

Bravo. Couldn't agree more with all you said.