Atheism Thread

[realitybites]

Often the arguments with the "heavy hitters" squiffy of solo are so pointless I do not waste my time. I am not dumb but I blend as best I can. But I'm not like you.

What does blend mean? Dumb yourself down?

What do you mean by this: But I'm not like you?

 

[CrystalGeezer]

What does blend mean? Dumb yourself down?

What do you mean by this: But I'm not like you?

 

[realitybites]

That's the best you can do? Posting a video to a song with the title "Why Don't You Find Out For Yourself?" Weak. Lazy.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

That's the best you can do? Posting a video to a song with the title "Why Don't You Find Out For Yourself?" Weak. Lazy.

That's just me playing dumb then.

 

[Skylarker]

It's always the people who are indifferent who try to silence the passionate ones. I'd rather have lunch with a fundamentalist Christian than an agnostic. At least with the fundy the conversation would be interesting, passionate, emotionally-charged, and well articulated. For all the I-could-care-less people, I'm tired of you telling me that you don't care. Guess what? I don't care. I'm not shutting up. This is the Athesim Thread, after all. You're on my turf.

That's nice except it isn't "your turf"...it's an open forum and even then it's owned by someone, specifically...who is not you.

And actually, come to think of it, I made this thread.

And I don't need or want you to "shut up"; actually I don't care either way. Nor is it important to me to "silence" the "passionate ones" with my thinly masked indifference, or whatever.

If I scroll through these forums and see what I consider bullshit, I'm gonna address it. That doesn't mean it is a marked and concentrated effort to "silence you" or be an asshole. But if you would like to take it that way, I cannot stop you.

 

[realitybites]

That's just me playing dumb then.

Ya, that's your shtick. I prefer communicating in our own words rather than through someone else's lyrics which are deeply personal to the author, often misinterpreted by the solipsistic listener, and thus irrelevant to a discussion between two people. In other words, who f*cking argues or communicates with lyrics? If your boss asks you a question, do you email him the link to a Moz song... here's your answer buddy. Who the hell am I? Am I not worthy of the same degree of respect and personalization? Why start a conversation only to finish it so badly with a cop-out?

 

[Skylarker]

Ya, that's your shtick. I prefer communicating in our own words rather than through someone else's lyrics which are deeply personal to the author, often misinterpreted by the solipsistic listener, and thus irrelevant to a discussion between two people. In other words, who f*cking argues or communicates with lyrics? If your boss asks you a question, do you email him the link to a Moz song... here's your answer buddy. Who the hell am I? Am I not worthy of the same degree of respect and personalization? Why start a conversation only to finish it so badly with a cop-out?

Says the person who posts copious Youtube clips of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchins to articulate her belief system...

 

[realitybites]

That's nice except it isn't "your turf"...it's an open forum and even then it's owned by someone, specifically...who is not you.

And actually, come to think of it, I made this thread.

Not turf, as in ownership. Turf as in where I hangout... my side of the street. Where my people congregate.

And I don't need or want you to "shut up"; actually I don't care either way. Nor is it important to me to "silence" the "passionate ones" with my thinly masked indifference, or whatever.

I don't consider you to be a dispassionate person at all. You ARE one of the passionate ones. Maybe not about religion. But you are passionate about it being known that you don't like to talk about religion... and yet here you are talking about religion. There is fire there.

If I scroll through these forums and see what I consider bullshit, I'm gonna address it. That doesn't mean it is a marked and concentrated effort to "silence you" or be an asshole. But if you would like to take it that way, I cannot stop you.

I'm not offended at all. Nor do I feel persecuted.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

Ya, that's your shtick. I prefer communicating in our own words rather than through someone else's lyrics which are deeply personal to the author, often misinterpreted by the solipsistic listener, and thus irrelevant to a discussion between two people. In other words, who f*cking argues or communicates with lyrics? If your boss asks you a question, do you email him the link to a Moz song... here's your answer buddy. Who the hell am I? Am I not worthy of the same degree of respect and personalization? Why start a conversation only to finish it so badly with a cop-out?

Okay, fine. I'm different because I'm not technically a person. I use lyrics to communicate because in some schools of thought I'm a muse. There. Happy?

 

[Skylarker]

I don't consider you to be a dispassionate person at all. You ARE one of the passionate ones. Maybe not about religion. But you are passionate about it being known that you don't like to talk about religion... and yet here you are talking about religion. There is fire there.

I don't like or dislike talking about religion. I dislike anyone who speaks with authority on the subject...to me, that is absurd. I have as much contempt for Dawkins as I do for the preacher in the pulpit on Sunday mornings.

I honestly don't care about this turning into a big wankfest or an argument. I like you very much as a person but, just as with vegetarianism, I cannot abide any proclamation of atheism that ventures into ego-definer territory. And it always does.

 

[realitybites]

Says the person who posts copious Youtube clips of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchins to articulate her belief system...

No. I am sharing videos with interested parties. Much like the R.E.M. thread shares tunes. I'm not trying to preach to a theistic audience. I have a feeling that the majority of the readers of this thread are already atheists. It is a niche thread. I'm not attempting to communicate through cryptic codes by using someone's lyrics. I'm a tell-it-like-it-is, straight-forward kind of gal. I think you do know that about me. But then again, maybe you don't know me at all.

 

[Skylarker]

No. I am sharing videos with interested parties. Much like the R.E.M. thread shares tunes. I'm not trying to preach to a theistic audience. I have a feeling that the majority of the readers of this thread are already atheists. It is a niche thread. I'm not attempting to communicate through cryptic codes by using someone's lyrics. I'm a tell-it-like-it-is, straight-forward kind of gal. I think you do know that about me. But then again, maybe you don't know me at all.

No one here knows anyone else here. It's a f***ing web forum about Morrissey.

 

[realitybites]

I don't like or dislike talking about religion. I dislike anyone who speaks with authority on the subject...to me, that is absurd. I have as much contempt for Dawkins as I do for the preacher in the pulpit on Sunday mornings.

I honestly don't care about this turning into a big wankfest or an argument. I like you very much as a person but, just as with vegetarianism, I cannot abide any proclamation of atheism that ventures into ego-definer territory. And it always does.

It is because atheism is salient to my identity as a person. Much like vegetarianism is to another. You nailed it on the head. That is why both atheists and vegetarians are often branded as being militants, obsessives, even fascists--terrible misuse of that concept. Mostly we suffer from ad hominem attacks from those who are unable to understand why we care so much about the things we care about. Why are we so idealistic? We just are. It is who we are. We don't separate our values and beliefs from our self-concepts. They are our self-concepts. It's like asking the painter why he paints all day. Or why the musician plays guitar until his fingers bleed. It's passion. Some passions are about creating... some, like atheism and vegetarianism, are about ideas. Ideas turn us on. And ideas give us a reason to live.

 

[realitybites]

No one here knows anyone else here. It's a f***ing web forum about Morrissey.

But I'm very transparent, honest, and pretty consistent. I am knowable. And glad that I am.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

It is because atheism is salient to my identity as a person. Much like vegetarianism is to another. You nailed it on the head. That is why both atheists and vegetarians are often branded as being militants, obsessives, even fascists--terrible misuse of that concept. Mostly we suffer from ad hominem attacks from those who are unable to understand why we care so much about the things we care about. Why are we so idealistic? We just are. It is who we are. We don't separate our values and beliefs from our self-concepts. They are are self-concepts. It's like asking the painter why he paints all day. Or why the musician plays guitar until his fingers bleed. It's passion. Some passions are about creating... some, like atheism and vegetarianism, are about ideas. Ideas turn us on. And ideas give us a reason to live.

Do you feel you're only using contemporary atheist polemics to shore up your superiority complex, a character flaw that's made of you a deranged shut-in? What practical use to you are these talking points at any rate? Are you a teacher, coping with religious parents, a conservative school board? Are you a researcher, your projects stymied by the political climate? Or are you simply an arrogant person who's found a steady supply of ego-justification? Do you realize how many Christians, Muslims, etc there are in the world who are your intellectual betters in every imaginable way? Do you realize how much Nietzsche respected Dostoevsky, a Christian? Do you know what he said about Islam? Are you aware of Schopenhauer's respect for Hinduism and Buddhism? What are the scientific accomplishments of Richard Dawkins? What's your favorite work by Christopher Hitchens? Oh, he produced no major works? He mainly appeared on cable TV and did short hack work for magazines? Oh. Maybe not so much. Are you shocked, do you find any dissonance in this, that the one solid achievement of Dawkins/Hitchens has been effective public support for wars and policies in the middle east that have killed over half a million children, over 113 thousand civilian deaths during the invasion of Iraq alone, led to countless instances of torture and maiming, opposed democracy and supported dictatorship, etc; and they felt their crusade against Islam was one on behalf of CIVILIZATION? Do you worry that perhaps your two heroes, with their posh accents and lack of concrete accomplishments, were simply empire's latest PR men? Discuss.

 

[realitybites]

Do you feel you're only using contemporary atheist polemics to shore up your superiority complex, a character flaw that's made of you a deranged shut-in? What practical use to you are these talking points at any rate? Are you a teacher, coping with religious parents, a conservative school board? Are you a researcher, your projects stymied by the political climate? Or are you simply an arrogant person who's found a steady supply of ego-justification? Do you realize how many Christians, Muslims, etc there are in the world who are your intellectual betters in every imaginable way? Do you realize how much Nietzsche respected Dostoevsky, a Christian? Do you know what he said about Islam? Are you aware of Schopenhauer's respect for Hinduism and Buddhism? What are the scientific accomplishments of Richard Dawkins? What's your favorite work by Christopher Hitchens? Oh, he produced no major works? He mainly appeared on cable TV and did short hack work for magazines? Oh. Maybe not so much. Are you shocked, do you find any dissonance in this, that the one solid achievement of Dawkins/Hitchens has been effective public support for wars and policies in the middle east that have killed over half a million children, over 113 thousand civilian deaths during the invasion of Iraq alone, led to countless instances of torture and maiming, opposed democracy and supported dictatorship, etc; and they felt their crusade against Islam was one on behalf of CIVILIZATION? Do you worry that perhaps your two heroes, with their posh accents and lack of concrete accomplishments, were simply empire's latest PR men? Discuss.

This whole paragraph is so fraught with ignorance that I don't know where to begin.

I am very surprised that you have no clue who Richard Dawkins is or how respected he is in the global scientific community. He IS the most well published zoologist on the planet... from scientific journals to best selling books. He is an evolutionary biologist by trade who just happens to be the most famous atheist alive. He had nothing to do with the Iraq war.

The late Christopher Hitchens was a journalist by trade who was also a passionate anti-theist and is regarded to be one of the most important and influential public intellectuals of the 20th century. He was loved by many. Respected by almost all who knew him--even his detractors. He did have an opinion about the Iraq war. He was an interventionist who believed in democracy and was a fierce anti-totalitarianist--much like his hero George Orwell. His support of the invasion of Iraq was consistent with these views. He, like Dawkins, has published hundreds of articles and dozens of books... some best sellers.


Again, your ignorance regarding these two brilliant men is astonishing. Before you jump in the pool you should at least know something about water, no?

And as far as your opinion of me goes, you are free to think as you wish. But I don't need to have a reason for having an opinion. Nor a title or credentials to justify why I should share it. I'm alive. I am a human capable of expressing myself. That is a good enough reason right there.

 

[realitybites]

Okay, fine. I'm different because I'm not technically a person. I use lyrics to communicate because in some schools of thought I'm a muse. There. Happy?

I'm not convinced, no. Sounds like a self-assigned title, ascribed to excuse sloppy communication skills. Like... I am a beautiful muse to my friend John the painter... so I only communicate through my watercolor paintings. I'm beyond normal methods and channels... I'm better than that.

 

[realitybites]

Sex, Death and the Meaning of Life with Richard Dawkins from the Oct. 15th broadcast on Channel 4. Episode One:

 

[Skylarker]

It is because atheism is salient to my identity as a person. Much like vegetarianism is to another. You nailed it on the head.

Yes and it's clearly very important to you that people see you as a specific kind of person. You need to be validated and noticed. "Oh how different she is! Let us behold her in wonder! Ooh, ahh!"

You need to proclaim your you-ness very loudly and often...because you aren't actually too sure it's real. So you scream out into the void, hoping for your sound to bounce off of others and echo back to you. Quite sad, really...the human condition.

That is why both atheists and vegetarians are often branded as being militants, obsessives, even fascists--terrible misuse of that concept. Mostly we suffer from ad hominem attacks from those who are unable to understand why we care so much about the things we care about.

I love this notion that anyone who disagrees with you or criticizes you just doesn't "get it." Such utter f***ing bullshit.

Why are we so idealistic? We just are. It is who we are. We don't separate our values and beliefs from our self-concepts. They are our self-concepts. It's like asking the painter why he paints all day. Or why the musician plays guitar until his fingers bleed. It's passion. Some passions are about creating... some, like atheism and vegetarianism, are about ideas. Ideas turn us on. And ideas give us a reason to live.

No...you need to see the world in a certain way. You need to be seen by the world in a certain way. I mean, c'mon...you're passionate about there not being a God? That doesn't even make sense. You can't be passionate about a negative. What you're passionate about is believing there is no God and furthermore about making sure everyone knows that you believe there is no God.

Because maybe once you convince everyone else, they can convince you.

 

[realitybites]

Yes and it's clearly very important to you that people see you as a specific kind of person. You need to be validated and noticed. "Oh how different she is! Let us behold her in wonder! Ooh, ahh!"

You need to proclaim your you-ness very loudly and often...because you aren't actually too sure it's real. So you scream out into the void, hoping for your sound to bounce off of others and echo back to you. Quite sad, really...the human condition.

This sounds like projecting to me. Honestly, I have never in my life tried to be different. I don't sand against the grain. I'm quite average and normal and don't stand out from the crowd in any way. And mostly I avoid drawing attention to myself. If I ever voice a strong opinion or get into a debate, it is more because it's a means to an end... the end being a greater understanding. I love learning. But reading books is not enough. Healthy intellectual interaction is a much fuller and richer way to gain insight into the human condition. I am a curious person. And I love learning. That is my motive. Not the things you stated.

I love this notion that anyone who disagrees with you or criticizes you just doesn't "get it." Such utter f***ing bullshit.

This was a bit vague. So I'll try to fill in the blanks. Do you mean that I think that non-atheists are clueless? No. The clues are there for the taking. The information is out there. They just don't want to embrace it for some reason. I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink. I interact with people daily who have radically different views about religion than mine. Live and let live. I don't dislike them. Do I want them for best friends? No. I prefer my own company to theirs. But they are free to see the world as they see it. Doesn't mean I agree with them or can't be critical of their views.

No...you need to see the world in a certain way. You need to be seen by the world in a certain way. I mean, c'mon...you're passionate about there not being a God? That doesn't even make sense. You can't be passionate about a negative. What you're passionate about is believing there is no God and furthermore about making sure everyone knows that you believe there is no God.

Because maybe once you convince everyone else, they can convince you.

I am passionate about reason and science. Thus I am concerned about the things that stand in the way of these things... like religion and pseudoscience. And yes, I will fight the enemies of reason with my dying breath. I don't thing that is a bad thing to fight for. Someone has to do it. If someone hadn't, we'd still be living in the dark ages with alchemists, astrologists, and witch doctors.