The Official "Is/Does Morrissey..." thread

[Iona Mink]

Disdain for women doesn't mean you're gay. It just means you have disdain for women. I can't stand women, but I'm still very attracted to them. And I don't think they're all bad. I hate men too, but -not being attracted to them- it doesn't frustrate me as much, because my inability to relate to them doesn't hinder very much.

Or, taken to a very extreme level, look at Ted Bundy...he was about as "disdainful" of women as one could get; to a point of monstrous horrific violence and hate. But as much of a terrifying, sadistic, unsympathetic piece of shit as he was, his hate for women did not equate to homosexuality.

Aye. This is true and hence doesn't form the majority of my post.

Do you really have disdain for women though? Can't stand your girlfriend? Really condemn and have total scorn for NHNS? Have utter contempt for all the women on this board? Hate men? Truly hate them? I find that hard to believe.

You've repeated the line "I have always been attracted to men and women blah blah blah". To my mind, could he have said that any other way without giving away the game? If he is to pick one or the other he shows his hand. The only choice left is to say both. I don't put that much stock in that sentence. Others do, I can see that. I also don't put much weight on something that was written back in 1765 by a teenage kid whose whole schtick was to talk shit.

Indeed, contempt of women doesn't mean you're gay. There are women that can't stand men. There is even a branch of feminism whose ideology is that all women must hate men and as a consequence be lesbians. To do otherwise is to fraternise with the enemy. If you see women through the eyes of condemnation and scorn (and I contend this is becoming heightened in his increasing years), the last thing you want to do is to form any sort of intimate relationship with one.

Yes, you're right, it doesn't mean he isn't attracted to them. I've just not seen any evidence which indicates he his attracted to them. He does however roll around naked in bed with men, dance with them and if that actor is to be believed (I wish I could find that post), live with them. I don't see any sort of equivalent situations to those when it comes to women.

[Bluebirds]

Does he read when he's having a shit?

I'm aware there is, the in an(n)als of time, a thread where a fan/ stalker traipsed around his house and took some toilet paper

[!Viva Hate!]

That is different. Celibacy is a mindset that manifests in a lifestyle. Change the lifestyle and you change the mindset. It's a decision...he always said it "wasn't a decision" but that's him being him. He said in the sense of not having a choice..no one would fuck him. But it comes down to the same thing. Celibacy was his station UNTIL he started getting laid again. So he didn't "backtrack" about celibacy per se...he just changed his status depending on his circumstances. That's very believable.

The homo issue is different. You either like the same sex or you don't. You can be "bi" but you still like the same sex. Once you leave Straightsville, you don't come back. So, in that regard, on that issue, he has been a bit dodgier. But all in all I still see little that can be debated about the fact that he likes both men and women. He may sleep with only men for the next 20 years, but he still likes women too. Or vice versa.

Unlike celibacy, which is dependent on a physical set of external circumstances and decisions, your sexuality is inbuilt. It is what you are and how you feel, regardless of whether or not you act on it, or to what degree.

While what you said is true, you misunderstood my meaning because I wasn't specific enough.

In the 1990s, Morrissey continued to say he was celibate. Then he hinted that he was having sex for awhile. Then went back to claiming that he is and has been celibate for years.

He does that kind of thing a lot but with different things...he tests the waters to see what kind of publicity he can get from a "revelation" and then if it isn't what he wants, he goes back to acting like it never was said. No matter how he really is, he has an image that he clings to with a death grip that just doesn't gel with accounts of how he is offstage.

[Bluebirds]

Does he use Viagra? Or poppers?


Or both?

[Skylarker]

Aye. This is true and hence doesn't form the majority of my post.

Do you really have disdain for women though? Can't stand your girlfriend? Really condemn and have total scorn for NHNS? Have utter contempt for all the women on this board? Hate men? Truly hate them? I find that hard to believe.

I specifically said, "they're not all bad." I've had bad experiences with many of them, yeah. You mention specific people, who I'm not tactless enough to go into detail about in public. I have no problem with NHNS, in fact I like her a lot. My girlfriend isn't relevant to this thread. I assume you are a woman; I have nothing but high regard for your intellect.

Men, yeah, I hate them. They're one-dimensional apes and I'm ashamed to have the same sex drives they do...because when competing for the same goal, the simpletons always take the prize. Why? Because -by and large, and this is admittedly a generalization borne of personal emotional jaundicing- women want yes-men who won't question them and who will "protect" them and provide for them and all that shit. Which is fine. It bothered me when I was 25. I'm much older now and I have very different priorities. I've learned they only have the power you let them have. As Iggy Pop once said of them, "no matter how close they come, I'll always pull the rug out from under them." And yeah, I think that's a good motto.

But having said that; I'm not hateful toward women; and I've known several very intelligent and worthwhile and independent ones. I consider them exceptions. Most are dolts. But I can't relegate that to gender; as I said, I have universal contempt.

You've repeated the line "I have always been attracted to men and women blah blah blah". To my mind, could he have said that any other way without giving away the game? If he is to pick one or the other he shows his hand. The only choice left is to say both. I don't put that much stock in that sentence. Others do, I can see that. I also don't put much weight on something that was written back in 1765 by a teenage kid whose whole schtick was to talk shit.

He said it in 1990, at the height of fame, not as a bored obscure teenager in the 70s. I don't see it as a cop out. I used to own that copy of the magazine and, in context, he was being very frank about every aspect of himself and his career. I repeated the line because it says it all. Simple and blunt and to the point and real. He. Likes. Both.

But, you know, it's like pictures of UFOs, or the Mansi photograph...you can show people a picture you took on vacation at a lake of a dinosaur's head coming out of the water while you were trying to photograph your wife and kids, and have it analyzed by experts and it cannot be proven fake...but ultimately, people are not gonna want to believe it because it challenges the ideas they already have about what is and isn't real or possible.

Indeed, contempt of women doesn't make you gay. There are women that can't stand men. There is even a branch of feminism whose ideology is that all women must hate men and as a consequence be lesbians. To do otherwise is to fraternise with the enemy. If you see women through the eyes of condemnation and scorn (and I contend this is becoming heightened in his increasing years), the last thing you want to do is to form any sort of intimate relationship with one.

I have no argument with this statement.

Yes, you're right, it doesn't mean he isn't attracted to them. I've just not seen any evidence which indicates he his attracted to them. He does however roll around naked in bed with men, dance with them and if that actor is to be believed (I wish I could find that post), live with them. I don't see any sort of equivalent situations to those when it comes to women.

It's easier to do it with men, and it's more ambiguous and open to interpretation. And it's camp and it's shocking (even today) and it raises eyebrows and he likes that.

But you know, he does sing, "young girl one day we will be old but I love you NOW." And at the end of Pashernate Love he repeats, "where are you, where are you, where are you girl."

Seems odd unless, you know, gasp/horror...he likes women.

[!Viva Hate!]

It's easier to do it with men, and it's more ambiguous and open to interpretation. And it's camp and it's shocking (even today) and it raises eyebrows and he likes that.

But you know, he does sing, "young girl one day we will be old but I love you NOW." And at the end of Pashernate Love he repeats, "where are you, where are you, where are you girl."

Seems odd unless, you know, gasp/horror...he likes women.

Skylarker, you know I love you, and don't be offended, but...those aren't the right lyrics.

"Young girl, one day you will be old...but the thing is I love you now."

And in 'Pashernate Love', he doesn't say "girl"...he just makes noises.

Oh, and, while we're on the subject...

"Gay, I lay awake."

[Skylarker]

Skylarker, you know I love you, and don't be offended, but...those aren't the right lyrics.

"Young girl, one day you will be old...but the thing is I love you now."

And in 'Pashernate Love', he doesn't say "girl"...he just makes noises.

Oh, and, while we're on the subject...

"Gay, I lay awake."

You are right about Disappointed as per the lyric sheet and how he sang it on record; however I was defaulting to live versions, which I listen to far more often and was hearing in my head, where he has said "we"...and it's a quibble; it's hardly a relevant factor in the debate or in the point I was making. But yeah, you're right. But it STILL is a pointed expression of attraction to a FEMALE. Yes?

I disagree with you about Pashernate Love. He is saying "girl."

And David Bret is a fuck. He's going back to Missoula...my dead ass.

[!Viva Hate!]

You are right about Disappointed as per the lyric sheet and how he sang it on record; however I was defaulting to live versions, which I listen to far more often and was hearing in my head, where he has said "we"...and it's a quibble; it's hardly a relevant factor in the debate or in the point I was making. But yeah, you're right. But it STILL is a pointed expression of attraction to a FEMALE. Yes?

I disagree with you about Pashernate Love. He is saying "girl."

And David Bret is a fuck. He's going back to Missoula...my dead ass.

Trust me, he isn't saying 'girl'...it's like how people hear "rubber ring" or "not again" in the yodeling he does in 'Rubber Ring'...but it's just not there.

Maybe it's because you're listening to those 320kbs rips while I'm listening to it lossless?

[nothappynotsad]

Trust me, he isn't saying 'girl'...it's like how people hear "rubber ring" or "not again" in the yodeling he does in 'Rubber Ring'...but it's just not there.

Maybe it's because you're listening to those 320kbs rips while I'm listening to it lossless?

You're a cheeky bitch.

[Skylarker]

Trust me, he isn't saying 'girl'...it's like how people hear "rubber ring" or "not again" in the yodeling he does in 'Rubber Ring'...but it's just not there.

Maybe it's because you're listening to those 320kbs rips while I'm listening to it lossless?

I used to have the CD single of Tomorrow. That's as lossless as it gets. He is totally saying 'girl.'

He isn't saying 'not again' at the end of Rubber Ring??

[Skylarker]

Listening back, I'll admit, you may be correct; maybe that was teenager-me hearing what I wanted to hear, and I just defaulted to interpreting it that way in the years that followed.

I still hear 'girl,' but...

Anyway I don't care if he says 'girl' or 'boy' or 'buffalo' or 'Sandusky' at the end of the song, it's a great song and this debate has caused me to play it again.

This live version is SO good it's stupid. Long live Alain Whyte.

[Iona Mink]

I specifically said, "they're not all bad." I've had bad experiences with many of them, yeah. You mention specific people, who I'm not tactless enough to go into detail about in public. I have no problem with NHNS, in fact I like her a lot. My girlfriend isn't relevant to this thread. I assume you are a woman; I have nothing but high regard for your intellect.

I only raise the issue of your girlfriend not to be crass or intrusive but rather because naturally the answer to my question would be "Of course not." I say it almost rhetorically.

Men, yeah, I hate them. They're one-dimensional apes and I'm ashamed to have the same sex drives they do...because when competing for the same goal, the simpletons always take the prize. Why? Because -by and large, and this is admittedly a generalization borne of personal emotional jaundicing- women want yes-men who won't question them and who will "protect" them and provide for them and all that shit. Which is fine. It bothered me when I was 25. I'm much older now and I have very different priorities. I've learned they only have the power you let them have. As Iggy Pop once said of them, "no matter how close they come, I'll always pull the rug out from under them." And yeah, I think that's a good motto.

This saddens me.

He said it in 1990, at the height of fame, not as a bored obscure teenager in the 70s. I don't see it as a cop out. I used to own that copy of the magazine and, in context, he was being very frank about every aspect of himself and his career. I repeated the line because it says it all. Simple and blunt and to the point and real. He. Likes. Both.

My fault. I was making two separate points. Perhaps a paragraph break would have been useful there. We have to agree to disagree on your final three sentences.

But, you know, it's like pictures of UFOs, or the Mansi photograph...you can show people a picture you took on vacation at a lake of a dinosaur's head coming out of the water while you were trying to photograph your wife and kids, and have it analyzed by experts and it cannot be proven fake...but ultimately, people are not gonna want to believe it because it challenges the ideas they already have about what is and isn't real or possible.

You're entitled to discount my reasoning. I would have hoped it expressed a logical and reasoned argument and not something based on symbols or gut feeling. I can only use my own judgement to determine my opinion. If I am to truly to share my beliefs I would say that I believe that we are all bisexual. Bisexuality is the default. There are just degrees to it. To say that I am unable to imagine what might be possible is unfair and incorrect. The evidence just hasn't convinced me.

It's easier to do it with men, and it's more ambiguous and open to interpretation. And it's camp and it's shocking (even today) and it raises eyebrows and he likes that.

What's easier? To be rolling around naked in bed with men having photos taken of the event of which none have ever seen the light of day? To live with a man and not publicise it? I'm not certain shock value is what he is after in these instances.

But you know, he does sing, "young girl one day we will be old but I love you NOW." And at the end of Pashernate Love he repeats, "where are you, where are you, where are you girl."

Seems odd unless, you know, gasp/horror...he likes women.

Who says that that is a sexual love anyway? Actually maybe he laments that this young girl would one day turn into a woman. After all he has lost faith in womanhood.

[Skylarker]

If I am to truly to share my beliefs I would say that I believe that we are all bisexual. Bisexuality is the default. There are just degrees to it. To say that I am unable to imagine what might be possible is unfair and incorrect. The evidence just hasn't convinced me.

Despite it seldom if ever being mutual, I can honestly say that I have never been attracted to anything but females.

[!Viva Hate!]

I used to have the CD single of Tomorrow. That's as lossless as it gets. He is totally saying 'girl.'

Yeah, but didn't you say you had a stereo that wasn't very good?

Listening back, I'll admit, you may be correct; maybe that was teenager-me hearing what I wanted to hear.

But I don't care if he says 'girl' or 'boy' or 'buffalo' or 'Sandusky' at the end of the song, it's a great song and this debate has caused me to play it again.

This live version is SO good it's stupid. Long live Alain Whyte.

I AM correct. You know this...you know.

And Alain is a bad motherfucker...people who don't know this, well, they're stupid.

He isn't saying 'not again' at the end of Rubber Ring??

I would answer this but I know you're kidding.

You better be kidding or else I will dissolve your balls in a cup of acid.

[!Viva Hate!]

Despite it seldom if ever being mutual, I can honestly say that I have never been attracted to anything but females.

LOGIC FAIL - I'm not a female!

[Iona Mink]

Despite it seldom if ever being mutual, I can honestly say that I have never been attracted to anything but females.

Never thought that another man was good looking? Or appreciated his appeal?

[Bluebirds]

Will he be following the Olympics? or does he think it's a massive white elephant?

Has he ever received a Jeremy Clarkson DVD as a gift?

What does he think about Martin McGuinness shaking the Queen's hand?

[Skylarker]

Never thought that another man was good looking? Or appreciated his appeal?

I can see how some guys would be attractive to women but that is a far cry from me actually feeling attracted to them.

Yeah, but didn't you say you had a stereo that wasn't very good?

I've since upgraded to a Harmon Kardon. Besides, I forget if or when I said that but I've never had a stereo that wasn't at least respectable.

LOGIC FAIL - I'm not a female!

I don't get it. Are you implying I'm attracted to you physically? Don't me wrong, I'd consider jumping in front of a train for you as a friend, but...sexually, you're all Lindsey's.

[!Viva Hate!]

I don't get it. Are you implying I'm attracted to you physically? Don't me wrong, I'd consider jumping in front of a train for you as a friend, but...sexually, you're all Lindsey's.

Don't you mean you'd jump my bones? It's OK...you can admit it. We're all open-minded here...

[Skylarker]

We're all open-minded here...

Yeah, but not all of us are open-assed.