RIP Whitney Houston

[Worm]

Yeah i'm sure Morrissey is a closet racist. I don't think he would ever come out (much less any musician) and say it knowing that his fanbase would flatline. He hates black music (Rap, R&B, Jazz) and I don't know of any black musicians he has actually been vocal about it.

Right. Because Morrissey, throughout his career, has always shown a willingness to say what other people want him to say. Clearly Morrissey is terrified of speaking his mind and thinks carefully about how his comments are perceived.

By the way, he has been vocal about liking black music. In fact, in the article which contains the quote above, the interviewer, Frank Owen-- who was trying to portray Morrissey as a racist-- essentially conceded that Morrissey did like black music, just not contemporary black music. And I guess loving James Baldwin's books and using Maya Angelou on his pre-show tape were probably desperate attempts to appease his fanbase, too.

"I abhor racism and oppression or cruelty of any kind and will not let this pass without being absolutely clear and emphatic with regard to what my position is.

Racism is beyond common sense and I believe it has no place in our society".

MORRISSEY, 2007

[Urban the swede]

Right. Because Morrissey, throughout his career, has always shown a willingness to say what other people want him to say. Clearly Morrissey is terrified of speaking his mind and thinks carefully about how his comments are perceived.

By the way, he has been vocal about liking black music. In fact, in the article which contains the quote above, the interviewer, Frank Owen-- who was trying to portray Morrissey as a racist-- essentially conceded that Morrissey did like black music, just not contemporary black music. And I guess loving James Baldwin's books and using Maya Angelou on his pre-show tape were probably desperate attempts to appease his fanbase, too.

"I abhor racism and oppression or cruelty of any kind and will not let this pass without being absolutely clear and emphatic with regard to what my position is.

Racism is beyond common sense and I believe it has no place in our society".

MORRISSEY, 2007

His statement there contains all the hallmarks of a man trying to defend himself. I doubt anyone thinks he wants to kill all the other races but his own but at the same time he has clearly showed that he dislikes certain types of people that just happen to be of another race than his own. He is a closet racist at best (or worst) but I guess he never spoke his heart when it comes to racism and his sexuality so that we truly know. It might be his right to keep that to himself but that also means people will continue to speculate.

[Happy Maudlin]

"I abhor racism and oppression or cruelty of any kind and will not let this pass without being absolutely clear and emphatic with regard to what my position is.

Racism is beyond common sense and I believe it has no place in our society".

MORRISSEY, 2007

Guardian

Could just be the PR thing to do. Saying something and adhering to it, consistently, are two different things. Not declaring whether Morrissey is a racist or not, just to make myself clear.

[Happy Maudlin]

But back on topic. Whitney Houston. Her decline was well documented and is continually referenced by the same media that are supposedly paying tribute to her. That's show business and reality for you. Liked some her songs, specifically the schmaltz-y "Greatest Love of All". I like its message and sentiment, but that's me.

[Thesmithsmorrissey]

Whitney.jpg

[Thesmithsmorrissey]

She drowned in the bath tub after falling asleep so this was a natural death so to speak.

Considering her drug abuse past and the fact that pill bottles were found lining the rim of the bath tub when her body was discovered

yes, I'm sure her death was totally natural.

Excellent observation from someone who viewed the crime scene through the media's window

[Urban the swede]

Considering her drug abuse past and the fact that pill bottles were found lining the rim of the bath tub when her body was discovered

yes, I'm sure her death was totally natural.

Excellent observation from someone who viewed the crime scene through the media's window

Haha, well I meant that she drowned after taking something that made her fall asleep so in that sense it was probably an accident as I doubt she took her life. Who cares anyway about these primadonnas. I often see these people crying and feeling sorry for themselves and I always sum them up like this.
Poor little rich girl.

[Thesmithsmorrissey]

I was taking the piss and not trying to insult you

She probably took drugs, fell asleep, went under, and then, naturally, she died

[Thesmithsmorrissey]

also, wasn't that Springsteen quote a song lyric from one of his most recent albums?

like, people have nothing else to whine about that some quote taken completely out of context?

Because I'm sure The Boss was totally thinking about Whitney's death when he made that remark

[Worm]

Could just be the PR thing to do. Saying something and adhering to it, consistently, are two different things. Not declaring whether Morrissey is a racist or not, just to make myself clear.

Of course that's a possibility. In fact, that's the obvious impression the statement makes. Public relations, clear and simple. I hear it the same way, on the surface.

But as soon as you say it's just a "PR thing to do", the entire complexion of the matter immediately changes. We're talking about Morrissey. When in God's name has Morrissey ever been concerned with the "PR thing to do"? When has Morrissey censored himself out of respect for public opinion? When has Morrissey gone out of his way to appease the finger-wagging guardians of political correctness?

To the contrary, his almost 30-year record shows us a man who has very little sensitivity for the feelings of other people, especially where celebrities and other public figures are involved. He constantly puts his foot in his mouth. He constantly says the wrong things. On his first three solo albums he included songs which were dangerously ambiguous ("Bengali In Platforms", "Asian Rut", "National Front Disco") after critics were already wondering, in print in the music weeklies, if Morrissey and The Smiths were racists or at least indirectly contributed to racism.

I mean, is that clear to everyone? Frank Owen's hit-piece, the one containing the Whitney Houston quote, appeared in 1986. It was in that article that "Panic" was infamously condemned as racist. In 1987 there was already talk about how retrograde and (again, directly or indirectly) racist the indie music scene had become. That was the context for Morrissey's comment about "black pop": writers like Owen and Simon Reynolds had already identified a widening chasm between "black pop" and "white indie music", and Morrissey was speaking to that. So even as far back as 1986 Morrissey was being attacked. Yet in 1988, 1991, and 1992 he deliberately included tracks which (according to the "PR thing" theory) he ought to have known better than to include on albums?

And we're supposed to believe, in 2007, he broke down and decided to say what everyone else wanted him to say, though it went against his own feelings?

Nonsense.

I know you're only arguing that it's a possibility-- a fair and legitimate point which I agree with-- but even a cursory amount of thinking about the matter reveals it as nonsense.

His anti-racism statement was PR. It also reflected the truth.

[Worm]

His statement there contains all the hallmarks of a man trying to defend himself. I doubt anyone thinks he wants to kill all the other races but his own but at the same time he has clearly showed that he dislikes certain types of people that just happen to be of another race than his own. He is a closet racist at best (or worst) but I guess he never spoke his heart when it comes to racism and his sexuality so that we truly know. It might be his right to keep that to himself but that also means people will continue to speculate.

That just isn't true. There's plenty of evidence he likes people of other races. The evidence is almost overwhelming.

What the record shows is that he is not careful in his remarks and has no sensitivity for speaking as respectfully about other races as many people might wish. To some people that might make him seem "racially insensitive", naive, or maybe they just think he's a dickhead who keeps tripping over his own tongue. Whatever the case, it doesn't make him a racist.

A "closet racist" would not make a public remark like Morrissey's unless he had no spine and caved in competely to public outrage. For you or anyone else to convince this forum that Morrissey both (a) is a racist and (b) publicly stated the opposite of his true feelings, you would need to show that Morrissey is an invertebrate fool whose mind bends according to the winds of public opinion. You can't do that. The only claim more outrageous than "Morrissey is a racist" is the claim that Morrissey would actually speak a blatant untruth just to satisfy his enemies.

Does anyone think he would dance to the NME's tune? Does anyone seriously imagine that because Tim Jonze painted him as a racist, he'd scramble to win some hollow PR victory?

Please.

[Urban the swede]

That just isn't true. There's plenty of evidence he likes people of other races. The evidence is almost overwhelming.

What the record shows is that he is not careful in his remarks and has no sensitivity for speaking as respectfully about other races as many people might wish. To some people that might make him seem "racially insensitive", naive, or maybe they just think he's a dickhead who keeps tripping over his own tongue. Whatever the case, it doesn't make him a racist.

A "closet racist" would not make a public remark like Morrissey's unless he had no spine and caved in competely to public outrage. For you or anyone else to convince this forum that Morrissey both (a) is a racist and (b) publicly stated the opposite of his true feelings, you would need to show that Morrissey is an invertebrate fool whose mind bends according to the winds of public opinion. You can't do that. The only claim more outrageous than "Morrissey is a racist" is the claim that Morrissey would actually speak a blatant untruth just to satisfy his enemies.

Does anyone think he would dance to the NME's tune? Does anyone seriously imagine that because Tim Jonze painted him as a racist, he'd scramble to win some hollow PR victory?

Please.

Read my racism thread and you will notice I have changed my mind on this as I got it explained to me in that thread.

[Worm]

Read my racism thread and you will notice I have changed my mind on this as I got it explained to me in that thread.

I read it. peptastic's definition, which you agreed with, is somewhat satisfactory.

The word "racism", according to the definition of the suffix "ism", implies systematic acting or thinking. Does Morrissey occasionally feel awkward around people of other races, specifically because of their race? Perhaps. Maybe we could even say "probably". But that puts him in the category of, oh, 100% of the world's population.

Calling him a racist, even a "closet racist", implies that he thinks or acts systematically out of a conscious hatred of other races. That isn't true.

Morrissey has always stood for compassion, kindness, intelligence, and above all a passionate hatred of cruelty. His entire career is a monument to these things. A few stupid, ill-considered comments and some ambiguous lyrics shouldn't distract us from the overwhelmingly positive message in his music. I think as fans we should not use inappropriate terms like "racist" (or "closet racist") or generalize about his feelings about an entire race. I'm not trying to play Thought Police, here, I just think we owe it to Morrissey to be fair-minded. Words matter, especially on the web, where quotes (like the one about Whitney Houston) can be Googled and taken out of context by innocent web-surfers-- as well as not-so-innocent cherry-pickers like Theo.

[Worm]

But back on topic. Whitney Houston. Her decline was well documented and is continually referenced by the same media that are supposedly paying tribute to her. That's show business and reality for you. Liked some her songs, specifically the schmaltz-y "Greatest Love of All". I like its message and sentiment, but that's me.

I'm curious to know why people call her a legend.

She had two hit albums, right?

One mildly successful acting appearance in "The Bodyguard"?

One good rendition of the National Anthem?

I'm not surprised by the adulation for her, which is of course expected, but it does seem a bit excessive. She was pretty hot about 20 years ago. But that doesn't change the fact that most of the people showering her with praise can only name about two or three of her songs.

As for the song, yeah, it has some nice phrases. But...

If I fail, if I succeed
At least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity

...does come across as heavily ironic, does it not? In the song she claims she depends on herself and lives "as she believes". Well, she became a drug addict. Other people didn't have to take her dignity away. She did it all by herself. I say this not to make fun of her. I say this because her death could become a "teachable moment" for "the children" of the world but it won't. Everyone ignored her problems while she was alive, everyone's looking away from the truth of her pitiful demise now. It's pretty sad in that respect, and not the least bit surprising.

[Urban the swede]

also, wasn't that Springsteen quote a song lyric from one of his most recent albums?

like, people have nothing else to whine about that some quote taken completely out of context?

Because I'm sure The Boss was totally thinking about Whitney's death when he made that remark

That man used up his last brain cell as he rolled up the sleeves on his shirt so what can you expect from such an overrated nobody of a man?

[Happy Maudlin]

Whitney.jpg

Not a fan. Very casual listener who heard a good amount of her singles, (it's kind of impossible not to) and I do have my stubborn favorites, but they are the typical ones. If I didn't like her music before, why would I bother with it after her death?

[Happy Maudlin]

I'm curious to know why people call her a legend.

She had two hit albums, right?

One mildly successful acting appearance in "The Bodyguard"?

One good rendition of the National Anthem?

I'm not surprised by the adulation for her, which is of course expected, but it does seem a bit excessive. She was pretty hot about 20 years ago. But that doesn't change the fact that most of the people showering her with praise can only name about two or three of her songs.

Similar situation with Michael Jackson's untimely death, people don't associate with star's solely on their merit alone, they associated with the because the attracted to the image, the aura, the persona, rather than the person. Hence the term "icon". Whitney Houston, while I admit to not having enough knowledge to rationally calculate her achievements, she is by the media's definition, an icon. She had help and a corporate strong arm (and Clive Davis) to help boost her career, but how many people can buy a gimmick for long? Her vocal talent is what brought her amongst the highest ranks of female entertainers in the last 25 years. She is cited as an influence to numerous established female vocal artists, did contribute to breaking the racial barrier in popular music as Michael Jackson (though myself personally, wouldn't characterize appealing to the mass white audiences as "groundbreaking") did a few years earlier. She was pretty much a 'fallen angel' by the time that infamous interview with Diane Sawyer aired. She couldn't live up to the pristine image tailor-made for her, she suffered as a result because she wasn't honest with herself and others weren't entirely honest to her either. Her only lasting legacy is one tinged with disappointment and lost potential, I'm afraid.

As for the song, yeah, it has some nice phrases. But...



...does come across as heavily ironic, does it not? In the song she claims she depends on herself and lives "as she believes". Well, she became a drug addict. Other people didn't have to take her dignity away. She did it all by herself. I say this not to make fun of her. I say this because her death could become a "teachable moment" for "the children" of the world but it won't. Everyone ignored her problems while she was alive, everyone's looking away from the truth of her pitiful demise now. It's pretty sad in that respect, and not the least bit surprising.

The irony (and the sadness of it) was not lost on me. Even more ironic those words were not her own, they were given to her. She vocally postured as if she believed in them herself, but it was only a performance.

[Urban the swede]

What Moz said about her and many other black people in music is that they do not make music filled with statements. It is music that does not fill any purpose at all for people who feel that music should be some kind of statement. For me the last time black people said something with their music was when Public Enemy burst onto the scene and questioned the society and the racism and many other issues.

It seems black people cannot make a statement in music just as they cannot swim or come up with a dish that does not include chicken. I am sorry but I just cannot take black people seriously at all. It is as if they were meant to be slaves and all the freedom they were given just made them confused and made them destructive and misfits in the world we live in. They are insecure as hell and need to wear bling-bling and behave in a way that they are supposed to behave in due to people expecting fook all from them.

It is high time the black community wised up and started behaving like human beings instead of some sort of twisted american mind fuck brought on by the medias perception of them. What you can say is that black people bought the myths told about them and are living up to the bad example they are expected to set in todays society.

If you cannot stop behaving like a nigger you cannot stop being one. I'm tired of this black culture that never seem to create anything good and always falls back into being about living a thug life and posing with wealth they never really had. Blacks may love that some black people become famous but when they do they never become a good example for others and throw the whole black community back to the beginning. They take one step forward and two steps back.

I wish the black power community distanced itself from black rappers and all that shit that never gave us anything of worth and sadly still Public Enemy is the only good example where they raised issues of importance. I know my post seems filled with racism but it is just me venting my frustration with something that seems stuck for eternity and it is time we moved on and these black stars are never gonna be a great example to other black people or for the rest of the world.

Media loves this when abuse kills another one and it is so clear that those driving this on are the mostly white people in this world buying the shit that media is throwing at them and as long as that continue the black community will never develop and become something other than the colour of their skin.

Farrakhan is needed and I would love to see the black people rise again and take America bit by bit as the white people are just silently loving their dominance. It has to stop and it must stop now!

[Worm]

Once again, Urban, some of the lowest and most despicable words ever typed on Morrissey-Solo have your name attached. I thought maybe you'd changed a little, but I guess my memory is bad, too, because this bullshit you just wrote shouldn't have been unexpected at all.

[Uncleskinny]

What Moz said about her and many other black people in music is that they do not make music filled with statements. It is music that does not fill any purpose at all for people who feel that music should be some kind of statement. For me the last time black people said something with their music was when Public Enemy burst onto the scene and questioned the society and the racism and many other issues.

It seems black people cannot make a statement in music just as they cannot swim or come up with a dish that does not include chicken. I am sorry but I just cannot take black people seriously at all. It is as if they were meant to be slaves and all the freedom they were given just made them confused and made them destructive and misfits in the world we live in. They are insecure as hell and need to wear bling-bling and behave in a way that they are supposed to behave in due to people expecting fook all from them.

It is high time the black community wised up and started behaving like human beings instead of some sort of twisted american mind fuck brought on by the medias perception of them. What you can say is that black people bought the myths told about them and are living up to the bad example they are expected to set in todays society.

If you cannot stop behaving like a nigger you cannot stop being one. I'm tired of this black culture that never seem to create anything good and always falls back into being about living a thug life and posing with wealth they never really had. Blacks may love that some black people become famous but when they do they never become a good example for others and throw the whole black community back to the beginning. They take one step forward and two steps back.

I wish the black power community distanced itself from black rappers and all that shit that never gave us anything of worth and sadly still Public Enemy is the only good example where they raised issues of importance. I know my post seems filled with racism but it is just me venting my frustration with something that seems stuck for eternity and it is time we moved on and these black stars are never gonna be a great example to other black people or for the rest of the world.

Media loves this when abuse kills another one and it is so clear that those driving this on are the mostly white people in this world buying the shit that media is throwing at them and as long as that continue the black community will never develop and become something other than the colour of their skin.

Farrakhan is needed and I would love to see the black people rise again and take America bit by bit as the white people are just silently loving their dominance. It has to stop and it must stop now!

You utter fucking cock.