Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier music?

[the_kaz]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

I see myself as someone on the left, what am I gonna put on my bookshelves, John Majors autobiography?
And anyway, this doesn't preclude exploring other ideas.

I totally agree with Qvist. I'm a pretty left-leaning guy myself, and I read excitedly read George W. Bush's autobiography shortly after it was released exactly because I want to hear the argument from the other side of the fence. For that same reason, I often watch Fox News (though that is equally down to morbid curiosity as it is to learn something), and I want to read Peter Mandleson's autobiography soon (although he's technically "labour", but I almost rank him along with Bush as someone who's views on life are radically opposed to my own). How can you go through life always reading things from the point-of-view you support?

 

[lilikoi]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

I totally agree with Qvist. I'm a pretty left-leaning guy myself, and I read excitedly read George W. Bush's autobiography shortly after it was released exactly because I want to hear the argument from the other side of the fence. For that same reason, I often watch Fox News (though that is equally down to morbid curiosity as it is to learn something), and I want to read Peter Mandleson's autobiography soon (although he's technically "labour", but I almost rank him along with Bush as someone who's views on life are radically opposed to my own). How can you go through life always reading things from the point-of-view you support?

and? did reading bush turn you into a republican? yes people can perfectly well go thru life not buying/reading works from the other point of view. as a matter of fact most people go thru life not reading anything besided playboy and tv guide. if the people who support an opinion do not support the author by buying the books then who will? saying that it's pointless to read hitchens if you already agree with him is just a pinnacle of arrogance. realitybites can read whatever she wants and doesn't need some strange dude with a lot of time to waste on a music forum telling her she's dumb like fox news cos she dares to like an author for his point of view.... get real, Qvist!

 

[TrueToYou]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

Walt Disney. Great Artist. Questionable Polititcs.

 

[Worm]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

Qvist, you're doing it wrong. The correct formulation is, "I respect all opinions, since all opinions are equal and mine are no better than anyone else's, and therefore I like to survey as many different points of view as I can since diversity is so important to a healthy society". You have to make sure you speak of free thinking in a way that makes it look and sound just like free thinking.

 

[lilikoi]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

Qvist, you're doing it wrong. The correct formulation is, "I respect all opinions, since all opinions are equal and mine are no better than anyone else's, and therefore I like to survey as many different points of view as I can since diversity is so important to a healthy society". You have to make sure you speak of free thinking in a way that makes it look and sound just like free thinking.

I don't think all opinions are equal at all. there are invalid scientific opinions and invalid moral opinions galore. the opinion that the earth is 5000 years old is one of them. the opinion that human sacrifice is good another one. moral and cultural relativism is fashionable but stupid. there are such things as scientific truths and there are such things as moral truths. and we have built and gradually improved our civilisation on them. as one of my favourite author once said: let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

I don't think all opinions are equal at all. there are invalid scientific opinions and invalid moral opinions galore. the opinion that the earth is 5000 years old is one of them. the opinion that human sacrifice is good another one. moral and cultural relativism is fashionable but stupid. there are such things as scientific truths and there are such things as moral truths. and we have built and gradually improved our civilisation on them. as one of my favourite author once said: let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.

Nice insight.

 

[Primitive_Painter]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

I respect the fact that some are not interested in an artists background/opinions, but I cannot see how it is the sole elite position to hold, as there is also worth in knowledge of the artist as a person. While it is not a pre-condition for appreciating every artistic expression, knowledge of the artist's background/experience/opinions can certainly heighten the ability for emotional connection and empathy.Investigation of an artist can be a way to verify that the components of our appreciation of the art, what we connect with - is indeed coming from a shared human experience or a similar core base - or if not those things, a genuine place (even if we don't agree with the sentiment).

There was an album a few years back by a band called Grandaddy called The Sophtware Slump and there is a track on it which is about a robot called Jed who drinks himself to death - "Jed's Other Poem (Beautiful Ground)". My friend loved the song and felt sorry for Jed, but felt differently when she found out he was a robot...I still feel sorry for old Jed, but I see where she's coming from. It is natural to empathize with sadness in a person, not so much with a robot. Artificial Intelligence is by now, likely capable of creating art, but would we have the same appreciation for the output without a shared human experience?

 

[CrystalGeezer]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

He wrote some poems, wrote them for no one, I guess I'll show them. Here's one of Jed's poems...

That gets me everytime too.

 

[Ben Budd]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

I'm sure that my political beliefs and life decisions may disappoint Morrissey but, luckily, our relationship is entirely one way so whether I'm not up to his standards doesn't bother me.

Now, when other fans of his try to insist they are 'bigger fans' than me, or anyone else for that matter, because they subscribe to militant left wing vegetarianism I roll my eyes and put another album on the mp3 player.

 

[Qvist]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

Qvist, you're doing it wrong. The correct formulation is, "I respect all opinions, since all opinions are equal and mine are no better than anyone else's, and therefore I like to survey as many different points of view as I can since diversity is so important to a healthy society". You have to make sure you speak of free thinking in a way that makes it look and sound just like free thinking.

I still lack the patience for that, although I have, to my great advantage, acquired a willingness to simply ingnore at least some of the fools some of the time.

Good questions about Oberst. I will return to them.

 

[lilikoi]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

I still lack the patience for that, although I have, to my great advantage, acquired a willingness to simply ingnore at least some of the fools some of the time.

says the person who openly accuses others of stupidity for not studying opinions they dislike. well that about tells it all doesn' it ;-)

 

[Worm]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

Good questions about Oberst. I will return to them.

Please do.

 

[Ben Budd]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

It used to bother me, if an artist I admired had different views than I did, when I was younger.

But when you get older you realize opinions are dictated by people's particular realities, and you can't hold people's personal experiences against them. Most people cling very ardently to the concept of ego, and they adopt political views to reinforce their particular idea of who they think they are. It's silly, but it's what people do.

I still cringe when I think of Michael Stipe at that MTV awards show in 1991, pulling off T-shirt after T-shirt of politically correct slogans. Sad. But, he is a good example of what I'm talking about.

Ultimately you have to just trust that the end is all that matters...if, despite various amounts of bullshit, they arrived somewhere great artistically, then it's OK. That's why Morrissey's vegetarianism crap doesn't bug me too much...the poetics, the songs are still pretty top-shelf. In the end, that's the deciding factor for me. I write off the rest as a psychological flaw that developed early in life as a result of not being able to harbor healthy, consistent human bonds...hence the absurdly militant allegiance to lower life forms, which can't say "no, I don't love you back." Very common with hardcore vegans and vegetarians.

Not too hard to fathom.

This, unironically, is the best post on this forum in years.

 

[Mr Reynolds]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

It used to bother me, if an artist I admired had different views than I did, when I was younger.

But when you get older you realize opinions are dictated by people's particular realities, and you can't hold people's personal experiences against them. Most people cling very ardently to the concept of ego, and they adopt political views to reinforce their particular idea of who they think they are. It's silly, but it's what people do.

I still cringe when I think of Michael Stipe at that MTV awards show in 1991, pulling off T-shirt after T-shirt of politically correct slogans. Sad. But, he is a good example of what I'm talking about.

Ultimately you have to just trust that the end is all that matters...if, despite various amounts of bullshit, they arrived somewhere great artistically, then it's OK. That's why Morrissey's vegetarianism crap doesn't bug me too much...the poetics, the songs are still pretty top-shelf. In the end, that's the deciding factor for me. I write off the rest as a psychological flaw that developed early in life as a result of not being able to harbor healthy, consistent human bonds...hence the absurdly militant allegiance to lower life forms, which can't say "no, I don't love you back." Very common with hardcore vegans and vegetarians.

Not too hard to fathom.

Or he could just genuinely have compassion for other sentient beings (not 'lower life forms') and feel motivated by their plight. Many do who don't share the profile you sketch out above. Me for example. By your standard it could equally be suggested your stance on the subject reveals a rather glib defensive irritation and lack of empathy. Of course, you might not agree with that.

 

[Mr Reynolds]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

The question was do an artist's viewpoints affect your evaluation of their art. I said "no, not anymore."

You're allowed to not eat meat. I'm allowed to say that sometimes -with some people- that's bullshit. That does not make me defensive or unempathic.

Your response point is in general a solid one, but it doesn't work here. His "genuine compassion for other sentient beings" ceases to be taken seriously given his multiple examples of blatant inconsistency in that regard.

I'm not anti-animal, but their "plight" is lost on me. I am absolutely categorically opposed to hunting for sport, torturing animals putting firecrackers in cat's butts, pulling wings off of flies, etc. But in nature -which we are NOT elevated from by evolution- animals eat each other. Do you condemn the cheetah? We are only different in that we are a far more advanced species (in some ways), but we still need to eat. Our intellect does not negate our appetite.

And by the way I'm not contesting that he genuinely cares about animals; but to me he uses that viewpoint -being vegetarian, and his whole "meat is murder" shtick- as an ego signifier. I wasn't saying that the viewpoint itself was intrinsically flawed. If you can abstain from meat and stay fit, regardless of your reason for doing so, then that's cool. But a lot of vegetarians are f***ing strokes, obsessed with flaunting their supposedly higher sense of biological connectivity and using that political view to say how they are "different" from the whole. But there is no separation, unless you cling to the concept of an ego-self.

Morrissey has been nothing other than consistent with regard to his animal rights stance. Indeed, it is probably his most enduring and cherished ethical cause.

We are separated from animal kind by our ability to reason. We can choose to treat animals with kindness. We can choose to not kill them. We can choose to eat vegan or vegetarian diets and still live healthy (if not in most cases, healthier lives). These are all facts. Animals are driven entirely by instinct alone.

What is your ‘ego-signifier’ in play here? That Morrissey is in some way fake regarding his stated support for animal rights? And that ‘some vegetarians are obsessed strokes’ who think they are better than you? Is that a concrete belief you hold there? Is it fixed?

 

[CrookedLittleVein]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

I've been a vegetarian for 20 years, and I've yet to come across a vegetarian/vegan who wasn't intelligent, thoughtful and sensitive. Maybe I've just been extremely lucky, given the profusion of fake and/or emotionally damaged individuals out there refusing to eat animals for all the worng reasons.

I have been unfortunate enough to encounter far too many anti-vegetarians who appear to take the refusal to eat meat as a direct attack upon their own dietary habits. Those c***s are f***ing everywhere.

 

[Mr Reynolds]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

It's inconsistent in that his compassion for life does not seem to extend to humanity.

He’s justifiably selective with humanity. For example, he has no truck with people who choose to accept that its fine to breed, rear and kill animals for various reasons – usually profit motivated and usually on an industrial scale. He has no time for hunters or supporters of hunting. Or whalers etc. It’s a very black and white issue for him. Which leads us to…

Yeah we can choose all that, sure, but we don't have to. And if we choose to eat meat, it does not make us "bad" people. All this moralistic hyperbole...f***ing bullshit.
If you don't want to eat meat, don't eat it, and shut the f*** up so the populace can do what they want to do.

…see for people like Moz your choice to support the meat industry and dismiss any welfare concerns with a casual wave and a stifled yawn does make you ‘bad’. You become ‘the enemy’ for him as he believes so fundamentally in this cause. Your support for it literally pollutes everything else about you from his standpoint. That’s fair enough isn’t it?

Yes, some vegetarians are strokes. So are some non-vegetarians.

With this we are in complete accord.

Morrissey is obsessed with the notion that he is "Morrissey"....if I have to explain it further, it's pointless.

Morrissey IS Morrissey. How can he be anything other than himself? That’s what makes him so valuable an artist. As he said ‘How can anybody possibly think they know how I feel? When they are they and only I am I’ and ‘I never ‘perform’ – only seals perform’.

Deal with it, babycakes. Boo hoo.
I can't speak for all non-vegetarians, but I personally do not take the vegetarian stance as an attack on my own dietary habits. I take it as an attack on reality, and I take it as unbearably pretentious.

Wow. This subject really pushes your buttons. Why the aggressive stance? So for the record anything you happen to believe, that is ‘REALITY’ and anything we who might disagree with you believe then that is an ‘attack on REALITY’ and an act of mere pretense. Wow. What were you saying about ‘ego’?

 

[Mr Reynolds]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

Ok, I'll drop this now. I don't have any serious problem with you. We'll agree to disagree agreeably on the veggie issue. Remember that Moz has indicated he sees no difference between humans being killed en masse (Holocaust/Norway etc) and animals being slaughtered every hour of every day. Now some will bridle at that kind of parity - but it is a legitimate view some choose to hold. And years ago certain sections of 'humanity' held a similar attitude to the way some view animals today towards black people for example - thinking of them as 'lower species' etc. Thankfully things moved on. One day future generations may look back at our time with horror and disbelief that we treated animals the way we do. Things change. Always in flux...

I wish you well.

Thanks for the debate.

 

[Qvist]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

Worm;

1. I think I know what you mean (and I appreciated your appreciation of Bright Eyes) but I've got two reactions which are tentative until I better understand your question: one, doesn't all music transcend its political content in one way or the other?

Perhaps, in some sense, but my point here was lyrics who manage to put political questions to you in such a way that agreeing or disagreeing with the writer’s political orientation seems to be beside the point.

2. Two, aren't you the least bit concerned that you are moved by music that transcends your faculty for sussing out what's right or wrong-- don't you feel conned, in a way?

Well, isn’t that a basic characteristic of all great writing? That it speaks to you while failing to fit comfortably and wholly into whatever preconceived categories you’re equipped with? It doesn’t make me feel conned, it makes me feel rewarded by the effort of listening. We are all already familiar with the conventional arguments against whatever political creed we subscribe to, and generally profit little from their restatement. It’s most useful to have familiar issues approached from unexpected angles. I don’t see it as conning. Anyway, if it is, and I’m unable to suss it, it’s a fair cop.

Or do I fail to understand your question correctly?

 

[CrookedLittleVein]

Re: Does your knowledge of an artists politics affect your appreciation of thier musi

I do not begrudge them their life choices, just their flaunting of it inasmuch as they imply that anything contrary is "wrong."

But who are these flaunty vegetarians? I haven't met one. Not one. In my experience, the subject of vegetarianism only comes up when eating out etc; in other words, when it pretty much has to come up. And then it is typically the meat eaters who suddenly round on them demanding an explanation or throwing up ludicrous what-ifs.

Surely most 'life choices' imply that anything to the contrary is wrong to a certain extent. If someone drives an electric car or has solar panels installed on their roof, aren't they implying that non-green energy users are 'wrong'?

You seem a bit thin-skinned for someone who regularly doles out insults to others. Live and let live, lad.