Article: Troy Tate sessions straight from master posted on smithstorrents.co.uk

[DavidA]

You can view the page at http://www.morrissey-solo.com/conten...torrents.co.uk

[Anonymous]

THANK YOU VERY KINDLY FOR THIS!!!!! LOVE IT! Blessed, Soundsville Paul!

[Anonymous]

Expect Morrissey's lawyers to come knocking on all your doors at 3am and bugger you until you subside and agree to drink from the teet of official releases and official releases alone.

[Anonymous]

Dale Hibbert, STOP THIS, AT ONCE!

[Wobble]

[thiskidtheo]

[Anonymous]

I remember the frustration of waiting soooo long for the John Porter-produced first album, only to be disappointed when it finally did surface. Hence the subsequent need for "Hatful". Now, getting to hear the master tape, it has become apparent why it was so necessary to re-record and to realise that the debut could have been so much less and - who knows? - changed the course of musical history.
You can now hear for yourself why Morrissey continued to be frustrated for years afterwards about the production on the debut, since it surely would have been suicide to attempt a third bite at it. So yes, thanks for posting - it explains so much.

[Dhalluin]

Magnificent... I'm happy like i was when I discovered The Smiths... A huge emotion for me ! Thanks, again and again

[Dhalluin]

I remember the frustration of waiting soooo long for the John Porter-produced first album, only to be disappointed when it finally did surface. Hence the subsequent need for "Hatful". Now, getting to hear the master tape, it has become apparent why it was so necessary to re-record and to realise that the debut could have been so much less and - who knows? - changed the course of musical history.
You can now hear for yourself why Morrissey continued to be frustrated for years afterwards about the production on the debut, since it surely would have been suicide to attempt a third bite at it. So yes, thanks for posting - it explains so much.

Can you explain why you say this ? ;-) I must admit I prefer some of these versions rather than John Porter's !

[Anonymous]

Expect Morrissey's lawyers to come knocking on all your doors at 3am and bugger you until you subside and agree to drink from the teet of official releases and official releases alone.

Shut up, Julia. Moz doesn't have any liars/lawyers.

[Anonymous]

Shut up, Julia. Moz doesn't have any liars/lawyers.

Oh how naive you are, twerp.

[Anonymous]

Well, they're thin-sounding, clumsy in places and (yes I'll say it) Morrissey's voice is too dominant. The Smiths were being touted as the next big thing and if this was to be the finished product it just wasn't going to cut it - these versions should have been an improvement on the Radio 1 sessions, instead they sound as if they were recorded with about as much care and attention (ie in a day). The concept of "Hatful" would then have been redundant. Don't get me wrong, I like thin-sounding/clumsy/Morrissey at full volume too, but it wasn't going to expand their audience beyond the indie chart.
Remember, Morrissey was being very forthright about their expectations of world domination and there was a danger of him sounding like a lot of hot air without songs to back it up. Well the songs are there, but sounding like this it's conceivable they may have gone unheeded. Could you honestly see either Troy Tate version of "What Difference" nudging up the charts alongside the sort of production, say, Frankie Goes to Hollywood had? (Actually, the pre- and post- Porter versions bear comparison to the pre- and post- Trevor Horn versions of "Relax").
I think Johnny's guitar suffers the most, and it was to some extent the acknowledgement by the record-buying public that there was more to The Smiths than Morrissey (his lyrics and self-promotional abilities in the press) that enabled them to develop their sound and to realise their ambitions.

[eugenius]

This is a great find. I have one version of the Tate Demos I got about 15 years ago, and now this.

I've been doing a little investigating and I have a question....

Can anyone (Beau, Steph, anyone?) explain the difference between the Tate 1 and Tate 2 demos? What are their approximate dates of recording? Where were they recorded? Any details would be great. And what version is this? One or Two?

[eugenius]

Found this from PassionsJustLikeMine...

The first studio sessions for the Smiths' debut album took place in the summer of 1983, with producer Troy Tate. Unsatisfied with his work as a producer, the Smiths re-recorded their debut with producer John Porter and this is what ended up being released. Unfinished versions (at varying degree) of the shelved Tate recordings are in circulation on various bootlegs. These are usually referred to as the Troy Tate outtakes or sessions, or incorrectly as the Troy Tate demos. The most finished Troy Tate recordings have not yet leaked to fans and collectors (bar a few lucky ones). This 'finished' master features the following songs in this order: "The Hand That Rocks The Cradle", "You've Got Everything Now", "These Things Take Time", "What Difference Does It Make?", "Reel Around The Fountain", "Hand In Glove", "Handsome Devil", "Wonderful Woman", "I Don't Owe You Anything", "Suffer Little Children", "Miserable Lie", "Accept Yourself", "Pretty Girls Make Grave".

Two unfinished versions of most songs Troy Tate worked on can be found on bootlegs, except for a few titles for which there are either only one or three versions out there. The first versions to have leaked (let's call the set TATE1) are rougher outtakes while the versions in a later set (TATE2) seem to be more polished and include or exclude different vocals/sounds/elements. The Troy Tate recordings of "Jeane" and "Pretty Girls Make Graves" were considered good enough to be officially released so most bootleggers added them to their bootlegs, or replaced the unfinished versions they had with the finished ones.

Does this still hold true?

[DavidA]

Stephane's hunch is that Tate 1 were actually John Porter's attempt to fix up the Troy Tate sessions. Lots more debate here.

[Dhalluin]

The Troy Tate version of "Pretty Girls Make Graves" has been released ? I just know the John Porter's version...

[Stephane]

Stephane's hunch is that Tate 1 were actually John Porter's attempt to fix up the Troy Tate sessions. Lots more debate here.

No, actually I say that about TATE2. All info here.

Stephane

[eugenius]

If we assume that Porter attempted to "fix" the Tate1 recordings, then yes, we can call this new batch the Tate2 recordings. Although, I wish we could start calling them the Tate-Porter recordings, just to clarify things.

That said, I've never read anywhere that Porter gave the Tate1 recordings a clean up. Of course, this is all from research (books, interviews, etc.) but didn't Porter give the initial Tate Session a listen and decided to scrap the lot and start from scratch?

If we are to believe what John Porter told Simon Goddard in "The Songs That Saved Your Life (2nd edition, page 45), Geoff Travis gave Porter a listen in a Regent Sound Studio to get Porter's opinion of the session. Porter said it was "out of tune and out of time." He then told Travis that it would be cheaper, easier and quicker to scrap the Tate session and start from scratch.

And thus the Porter sessions were birthed into the debut album we all know of.

That said, where has it been said or written that Troy Tate recorded two sessions? Are Tate1 and Tate2 possibly just different takes from the same sessions? That would make more sense.

Again, if we are to go by Goddard, Porter and Travis, Tate1 and Tate2 are the same sessions--the only differences being some tracks have been overdubbed, some haven't. Also, Tate2 is obviously the group of tracks that have been given the studio treatment (overdubs, effects, edits, etc).

But do you know who could probably answer this? Mike Joyce.

Mike?

[Anonymous]

The Troy Tate version of "Pretty Girls Make Graves" has been released ? I just know the John Porter's version...

first B-side on "I started something I couldn't finish" single

[Stephane]

I wish we could start calling them the Tate-Porter recordings, just to clarify things.

If we can prove that Porter was involved in the TATE2 set, that's what I intend to do on PJLM.

That said, I've never read anywhere that Porter gave the Tate1 recordings a clean up.

Well assuming he did work with previously recorded material, he would have gone back to the multi-tracks I guess. Which is different to working with the finished or near-finished Troy Tate job (the TATE1 set).

didn't Porter give the initial Tate Session a listen and decided to scrap the lot and start from scratch? If we are to believe what John Porter told Simon Goddard in "The Songs That Saved Your Life (2nd edition, page 45), Geoff Travis gave Porter a listen in a Regent Sound Studio to get Porter's opinion of the session. Porter said it was "out of tune and out of time." He then told Travis that it would be cheaper, easier and quicker to scrap the Tate session and start from scratch.

Which doesn't mean he didn't give it a try, particularly if Travis stressed that they were running out of funds. Rogan does suggest that they might have attempted to 'fix' the recordings first. I trust Goddard as a biographer more than I do Rogan, but Rogan also spoke with key people and there might be something there. This doesn't negate the fact that the versions on the debut album were re-recorded. It's just that there might have previously been an attempt at working with what was already recorded.

How else can we explain that the TATE2 set includes musical and vocal elements that come from the Troy Tate recordings, but also elements that we find in the final Porter versions released on the debut album?

That said, where has it been said or written that Troy Tate recorded two sessions? Are Tate1 and Tate2 possibly just different takes from the same sessions? That would make more sense.

The alternative to the hypothesis that TATE2 includes Porter's involvement is that TATE2 would pre-date TATE1, because TATE1 is the final or near-final Troy Tate mix that the band would have released if they had liked it.

All in all I'm not saying you are wrong, but rather playing devil's advocate by confronting what you say with what others have been reporting here and there. I think there are elements in the alternative theories that we can't ignore. We can only see clearly if we put all our minds and knowledge together.

Stephane