Anyone else rate Mozzer over The Smiths?

[Worm]

And I have friends who could never stand Morrissey but thought the music on Your Arsenal was excellent because they liked Ronson/Bowie/Bolan yet had nothing much to say about The Smiths.

Of course. We have to clarify: if it's just "Morrissey songs vs. Smiths songs" it's all pretty much on the same level. The common thread is Morrissey, and Morrissey is more than just a singer, he often makes the song.

But an offshoot of that debate, a sub-debate, is the comparison between the bands-- as bands, musicians, creative talents, etc. And as I said above regarding producers, Morrissey's real collaborators have been the guys behind the desk (Ronson, in the case of "Your Arsenal"). Now, Alain, Boz and the guys played superbly on "Your Arsenal", but in my view, when we compliment the music on "Your Arsenal", we're complimenting Mick Ronson, not the band. Whereas with The Smiths we're complimenting the producing and the playing of Johnny Marr, and to a lesser extent Andy and Mike. In my opinion this tips the scales decidedly in favor of The Smiths as musicians.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to know where Marr the producer ends and Marr the guitarist picks up, but in my head I can playback so many beautiful riffs in his songs, and I know they are Johnny's. He's even recognizable on other people's records. His sound is like a fingerprint. I can pick him out on Talking Heads, Billy Bragg, The The, Electronic, and The Cribs. On the other hand, while I can think of a great many musical flourishes on Morrissey's solo records, I can't tell if any of them are thanks to Boz/Alain or to Ronson, Street, Visconti, etc. If you asked me to describe Boz Boorer's style, I couldn't answer. I'd probably mumble "rockabilly" or something. Try the same experiment and see if you can even distinguish Morrissey's backing bands as musicians-- don't they all pretty much sound like session players answering the creative direction of Morrissey and his producer?

As I've said in the past, I think you can narrow the argument to exclude The Smiths, since emotions run so high about them. Even if you leave Marr out of the picture and just compare Vini Reilly to everyone else on the solo records, you'd still get the same argument from me.

In your anecdotes you're still talking about people who know who Johnny Marr is. I still believe if you played someone, who knew nothing, tracks like I've Changed My Plea, Everyday is Like Sunday, Now My Heart is Full or Pigsty to name a few next to Smiths classics they would not automatically say the latter is superior to the former, lyrically or musically.

No quibble here. But you could say that about Marcy Playground or Ben Folds Five or Dave Matthews, too. You can take the five or six best songs from any band and they're going to sound sharp. The cream of one band's crop always compares favorably to the cream of another band's crop.

Musically speaking, from top to bottom-- not just the cream-- The Smiths' back catalog is much more consistently impressive than Morrissey's solo work. In other words, if you take this person you're talking about, who knows nothing of either band, and forced her to listen to the entire back catalogs of each, I have no doubt this person would conclude The Smiths were superior.

Morrissey's bands have been superb. Nobody's saying they suck. They're just not as good as The Smiths. There are many, many Morrissey solo tracks that are musically just as great as The Smiths were. There are loads in fact. But there's also a middle segment of so-so tracks...and a bottom segment of half-assed crap that would barely pass as Matchbox 20 demo material. That just isn't true of The Smiths. The Smiths' worst tracks are still pretty good, musically-- or at least interesting. And then you throw in the fact that Morrissey's backing bands have been all over the place as live performers, with in-concert renditions ranging from stellar to unlistenable shit, while The Smiths were consistently incredible.

[CrookedLittleVein]

Given the musical guff that is available to all and sundry in the charts nowadays, i think it pointless to argue over Mozz's contributions at different points in time. Whether as a solo artist or with The Smiths - he is still a million miles ahead of todays chart toppers!

The Smiths changed music - they were visionaries. They covered issues that were previously untouchable, changed perceptions of what it is to be a pop star, and wrote such bloody fine tunes that they are still played regularly the world over. Morrissey has continued in his solo career where he left off with The Smiths.... still controversial, still redefining stardom and still redefining pop lyrically and musically. Hurrah for Moz.

[Emotional Guide Dog]

Morrissey's bands have been superb. Nobody's saying they suck. They're just not as good as The Smiths. There are many, many Morrissey solo tracks that are musically just as great as The Smiths were. There are loads in fact. But there's also a middle segment of so-so tracks...and a bottom segment of half-assed crap that would barely pass as Matchbox 20 demo material. That just isn't true of The Smiths. The Smiths' worst tracks are still pretty good, musically-- or at least interesting. And then you throw in the fact that Morrissey's backing bands have been all over the place as live performers, with in-concert renditions ranging from stellar to unlistenable shit, while The Smiths were consistently incredible.

Well quite alot of people say they suck actually. I'm not one of them. Morrissey's musicians have always been consistently 'alright' & I'm not trying to damn them with faint praise, I mean it as a compliment. I think in his entire solo career, there's been quite a few songs that don't 'float my boat' for one reason or another but I can only think of three or four that are flat out awful.

It was once said of Blur, 'they could bang bin lids together & make it sound decent' & I think the same applies to Boorer/Whyte/Street/Tobias etc etc

Although as far as his solo career goes, I'd single out Andrew Paresi for special praise. It's a shame he doesn't drum anymore.

[Worm]

I'd single out Andrew Paresi for special praise. It's a shame he doesn't drum anymore.

Yeah, he was good. I'd also single out for praise the guys playing bass and drums on "Sweet And Tender Hooligan (Live)", whoever they are.

[Emotional Guide Dog]

Yeah, he was good. I'd also single out for praise the guys playing bass and drums on "Sweet And Tender Hooligan (Live)", whoever they are.

I heard a rumour that one of those guys wrote a song called Girl Least Likely To, but as yet no-one has been able to confirm it.

[This charming man.]

Has 'April Fools' Day' come early with this thread?

[King Leer]

All good points -- I was going to say that The Smiths had an undeniably higher ratio of excellent songs than Morrissey solo, but I do believe there are plodders and forgettable tracks, too.

I already knew that you considered the best solo stuff equal to the best of The Smiths, which is good to hear. My reply (and devil's advocate posts) were more directed to people who put the whole solo catalogue a notch below The Smiths, which is madness in my opinion.

Regarding your comments about Boz/Alain not having a distinctive style the way Marr does, it comes down to auteurship I guess. But Marr was only a genius songwriter in The Smiths, painfully so.

I concede that it'd be very difficult for someone out of the know to say "Yep, that's distinctly Boz Boorer or Alain Whyte," but I'd use the film analogy (since I know you're into that) that a brilliant film director (edit: who has made some stinkers) like Steven Soderbergh makes movies that I'd defy anybody to say were made by the same person (and he even shoots them). Scorsese is like Marr in that he's still distinctly Scorsese but he's not what he once was...

Of course. We have to clarify: if it's just "Morrissey songs vs. Smiths songs" it's all pretty much on the same level. The common thread is Morrissey, and Morrissey is more than just a singer, he often makes the song.

But an offshoot of that debate, a sub-debate, is the comparison between the bands-- as bands, musicians, creative talents, etc. And as I said above regarding producers, Morrissey's real collaborators have been the guys behind the desk (Ronson, in the case of "Your Arsenal"). Now, Alain, Boz and the guys played superbly on "Your Arsenal", but in my view, when we compliment the music on "Your Arsenal", we're complimenting Mick Ronson, not the band. Whereas with The Smiths we're complimenting the producing and the playing of Johnny Marr, and to a lesser extent Andy and Mike. In my opinion this tips the scales decidedly in favor of The Smiths as musicians.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to know where Marr the producer ends and Marr the guitarist picks up, but in my head I can playback so many beautiful riffs in his songs, and I know they are Johnny's. He's even recognizable on other people's records. His sound is like a fingerprint. I can pick him out on Talking Heads, Billy Bragg, The The, Electronic, and The Cribs. On the other hand, while I can think of a great many musical flourishes on Morrissey's solo records, I can't tell if any of them are thanks to Boz/Alain or to Ronson, Street, Visconti, etc. If you asked me to describe Boz Boorer's style, I couldn't answer. I'd probably mumble "rockabilly" or something. Try the same experiment and see if you can even distinguish Morrissey's backing bands as musicians-- don't they all pretty much sound like session players answering the creative direction of Morrissey and his producer?

As I've said in the past, I think you can narrow the argument to exclude The Smiths, since emotions run so high about them. Even if you leave Marr out of the picture and just compare Vini Reilly to everyone else on the solo records, you'd still get the same argument from me.



No quibble here. But you could say that about Marcy Playground or Ben Folds Five or Dave Matthews, too. You can take the five or six best songs from any band and they're going to sound sharp. The cream of one band's crop always compares favorably to the cream of another band's crop.

Musically speaking, from top to bottom-- not just the cream-- The Smiths' back catalog is much more consistently impressive than Morrissey's solo work. In other words, if you take this person you're talking about, who knows nothing of either band, and forced her to listen to the entire back catalogs of each, I have no doubt this person would conclude The Smiths were superior.

Morrissey's bands have been superb. Nobody's saying they suck. They're just not as good as The Smiths. There are many, many Morrissey solo tracks that are musically just as great as The Smiths were. There are loads in fact. But there's also a middle segment of so-so tracks...and a bottom segment of half-assed crap that would barely pass as Matchbox 20 demo material. That just isn't true of The Smiths. The Smiths' worst tracks are still pretty good, musically-- or at least interesting. And then you throw in the fact that Morrissey's backing bands have been all over the place as live performers, with in-concert renditions ranging from stellar to unlistenable shit, while The Smiths were consistently incredible.

[Worm]

I concede that it'd be very difficult for someone out of the know to say "Yep, that's distinctly Boz Boorer or Alain Whyte," but I'd use the film analogy (since I know you're into that) that a brilliant film director (edit: who has made some stinkers) like Steven Soderbergh makes movies that I'd defy anybody to say were made by the same person (and he even shoots them). Scorsese is like Marr in that he's still distinctly Scorsese but he's not what he once was...

Bravo, King Leer! Marr=Scorsese is actually a pretty right-on analogy. "Shutter Island" is no "Raging Bull"-- but I wouldn't have missed it for the world. The man gets my $12 any day.

To extend the analogy to its (illogical and absurd) conclusion: rather than find a director analogy for Boz/Alain (or any of the solo band members) I'd instead find a producer analogy for Morrissey-- Russ Meyer. The man himself was a living brand, as a director and a producer, who utilized a wide array of 'talent' to realize his own consistently unique vision. Only a handful of people could name more than two or three Russ Meyer flims, but everyone knows exactly what a Russ Meyer film is going to be like. And like Morrissey his legend dwarfs his commercial viability.

I could've said Jerry Bruckheimer but I didn't want to sound facetious.

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

my heart says no, but my head(and last fm ratings) says

I do rate Moz over his old band

[Worm]

my heart says no, but my head(and last fm ratings) saysI do rate Moz over his old band

Flawed case study, Robby. Morrissey has more tracks to play.

[modrevolve]

Morrissey solo has recorded three times as many tracks as The Smiths did

my heart says no, but my head(and last fm ratings) says

I do rate Moz over his old band

[King Leer]

Never expected to see Russ Meyer mentioned on here, but I welcome it! The legend vs. commercial viability is an accurate comparison. Except Meyer controlled the rights to all his own "recordings" and sold them himself whereas Morrissey hates DIY -- he likes company legitimacy behind him. He does seem to "replace" older band members with younger, better looking ones, while keeping Boz around out of loyalty (his Edy Williams?).

Actually I think the Marr/Scorsese analogy works better for you than me because while I'd still pay for anything Scorsese directed I would only buy a Marr song if I heard something great about it, not just because it's him. I think a Scorsese-DeNiro reunion would be just about as good as a Morrissey-Marr one. Not brilliant, but damn good.

Bravo, King Leer! Marr=Scorsese is actually a pretty right-on analogy. "Shutter Island" is no "Raging Bull"-- but I wouldn't have missed it for the world. The man gets my $12 any day.

To extend the analogy to its (illogical and absurd) conclusion: rather than find a director analogy for Boz/Alain (or any of the solo band members) I'd instead find a producer analogy for Morrissey-- Russ Meyer. The man himself was a living brand, as a director and a producer, who utilized a wide array of 'talent' to realize his own consistently unique vision. Only a handful of people could name more than two or three Russ Meyer flims, but everyone knows exactly what a Russ Meyer film is going to be like. And like Morrissey his legend dwarfs his commercial viability.

I could've said Jerry Bruckheimer but I didn't want to sound facetious.

[Anaesthesine]

Bravo, King Leer! Marr=Scorsese is actually a pretty right-on analogy. "Shutter Island" is no "Raging Bull"-- but I wouldn't have missed it for the world. The man gets my $12 any day.

There's more to that analogy - Scorsese and De Niro were magic together; they revolutionized the idea of what a film could be and created several masterpieces that set the bar for a type of cinema that cannot be seen again. Anything approaching it becomes pastiche.

If Marr = Scorcese, then Moz = De Niro. Of course De Niro is ridiculously talented, but it took Scorsese to bring out his greatest performances. Sure, his work in The Deer Hunter and Awakenings towers above most others, but with Scorsese there was a spark...

To extend the analogy to its (illogical and absurd) conclusion: rather than find a director analogy for Boz/Alain (or any of the solo band members) I'd instead find a producer analogy for Morrissey-- Russ Meyer. The man himself was a living brand, as a director and a producer, who utilized a wide array of 'talent' to realize his own consistently unique vision. Only a handful of people could name more than two or three Russ Meyer flims, but everyone knows exactly what a Russ Meyer film is going to be like. And like Morrissey his legend dwarfs his commercial viability.

I'd say Morrissey is closer to David Cronenberg myself.

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

Flawed case study, Robby. Morrissey has more tracks to play.

yes, but I tend to only listen to either songs I rate @ "5" or entire albums one at a time
and since she asked "rating" I have now tallied which songs for Morrissey & The Smiths which are rated 5 by me

Morrissey 67 V The Smiths 45
Morrissey wins by more than twenty tracks
and really I do not see how to figure into this the fact that "he" has so much more total output
especially since I do not often listen to many of those songs

[Orson Swells]

As much as i love The Smiths, for me Morrissey as a solo artist towers above - both lyrically & with the music his band have produced for him.

Boz Boorer is every bit a match for Johhny Marr & Morrisseys best solo work easily outstrips The Smiths best.

Anyone agree?

The Smiths were a better band. Marr is a greater guitarist. I prefer Morrissey solo.

[King Leer]

Thank you -- this is exactly what I feel.

The Smiths were a better band. Marr is a greater guitarist. I prefer Morrissey solo.

[Mars_Rover]

Nope.

Though I give much respect and kudos to Morrissey for having built a successful solo career for lo these 23 years. I was a rabid Smiths fan when they broke up, and as great a lyricist and performer as Moz obviously was, I feared for his future without Marr's musical ability. Morrissey's first solo album was absolutely brilliant, better than anyone could have predicted possibly. Since then though, musically, it's been spotty. He remains a brilliant lyricist and performer. His output has been better than Marr's solo career it must be said. Together they would be so much more powerful.

[Dave]

People have said what they're gonna say. A very familiar pattern. The responses break down like this:

1) "Morrissey is better than The Smiths!"

2) "The Smiths are better than Morrissey!"

3) "The question is irrelevant because it all boils down to personal taste!"

4) Random song lyrics quoted without elaboration.

Apparently not.

[Anaesthesine]

The Smiths were a better band. Marr is a greater guitarist. I prefer Morrissey solo.

That's a great distinction.

Whenever I see Morrissey live, it's his most recent solo output that I most want to hear. Despite the fact that I rate his work in The Smiths more highly, the music he creates in any given moment is part of the soundtrack to life as I'm living it.

The Smiths songs live sound like a distant (but thrilling) memory; were he to put together a set of his BEST solo material, I could live without him playing a single Smiths song.

[PUNKturedBIKE]

As much as i love The Smiths, for me Morrissey as a solo artist towers above - both lyrically & with the music his band have produced for him.

Boz Boorer is every bit a match for Johhny Marr & Morrisseys best solo work easily outstrips The Smiths best.

Anyone agree?

I don't really give a toss about Johnny Marr and i'm not very interested in Boz's roll in Morrissey's band. I prefer Morrissey solo to The Smiths, most of the time. It depends on the song but really, it's all about Morrissey.