Anyone else rate Mozzer over The Smiths?

[Dave]

I have enjoyed some of the posts here in defense of being a fan of Morrissey as much or more than a fan of The Smiths, who of course, are stellar and legendary. Too many to quote, but some very well written posts here.

[egosheep]

I'm pretty sure Marr couldn't nail it in one go either. I may be wrong, if someone who saw the Smiths live can correct me, then ok.

You stand corrected. Look at him, he's not even breaking a sweat!!




For comparison... about half speed and the riffs are still wrong:

[Patrick!]

The Smiths are untouchable. Period.

"untouchable" is about the right word. i think moz's voice has gotten better (deeper) over the years, and he was at his peak attractiveness during the your arsenal era. around that time, morrissey said in an audience Q+A that when the smiths were around, if he had been presented with the opportunity to either join the smiths or his current band, he would have chosen the latter.

[kissmyshadestoo]

I think Boz is an underrated genius & this has been proven by the length of time Morrissey has kept him in the gang.

He's done nearly 20 years with Moz - 4 times longer than Marr,almost.

4 times longer = 4 times better.

Well, seeing as The Smiths broke up after 5 years, its really hard to say. But I will say no. Marr is better than Boz.

[nugz]

4 times longer = 4 times better.

that's fucking stupid logic.

some of the greatest musicians/bands ever were only around a short period of time.

the beatles, jimi hendrix, joy division, sex pistols, janis joplin, and THE SMITHS. just to name a few.

some of the worst won't ever go away. Aerosmith comes to mind.

[Neader]

The Smiths are better, by so much it's ridiculous. How anyone can think Moz is better just completely astounds me. Yeah I might sound ignorant and stupid and cocky but this is so simple in my mind. Someone early mentioned how Strangeways seemed more like a Moz album than a Smiths one, which I agree with 100%, keep that in my mind. Ironically I find Viva Hate to be more Smithesque than Strangeways. Finally maybe what I'm posting shouldn't really be eligible. I've only really listened to Viva Hate, Bona Drag, Vauxhall and I, You Are the Quarry, and Years of Refusal in detail, the others I listened to a little and couldn't stomach.

Let's break it down shall we?

1. Lyrics - The Smiths. No doubt. Morrissey's lyrics after the Smiths went downhill. I feel that Morrissey's lyrics became too personal, to the point where it was impossible to relate to. You're the One For Me Fatty? Everyone always hails The First of the Gang to Die as one of his best songs...it's not. You have never been in love until you've seen the stars reflected in the reservoir. What? That's not a good lyric, he's simply just trying to sound deep and philosiphical, nothing about it is as good as I decree today that life is simply taking and not giving. That evokes emotion. The fact that he uses decree. It's a fact, it's practically law, indisputable. Life is simply, there is nothing else to it, that's all it is. That one lyric stirs up complete and utter depression it's remarkable. Without a doubt life is only taking, but he says it in such a artistic way. How is the First of the Gang to Die artistic? Why do we care for Hector? Why do we care that he was the first to die? And why is Moz pulling lines of love in there? What do those have to do with Hector? They don't, you can make some connection, but it'll be through crazy rationale that will lead everyone to a different conclusion. Note how I am using Still Ill, an admittedly par Smiths song to compare with Moz's "best solo song". Oh, and I hate when Moz sings about love in general. For a man who has been a self-proclaimed celibate, and had what, 2 or 3 love songs for the first 5 years of his career to be singing about love as often as he does I think just doesn't fit. He possibly ran out of material and is trying to write generic love songs (Black Cloud anyone?)

2- Music. The Smiths. Boz is great and all but you can't top Marr. Everyone keeps asking why Boz is underrated. Well...I don't know...maybe because he's not even technically in a band, he's Moz's guitarist, he plays for the singer Morrissey, obviously he's not going to get credit, how many of us know the musicians behind Beyonce? The music is the worst part of Moz's solo career I think. There's nothing really worth listening to. I can NOT stand listening to Moz with distorted guitar (Something is Squeezing my Skull) it doesn't fit him at all.

3. The Singing. Ah yes. If you're not pissed yet, get ready to be . I really do not like Moz's voice at all anymore. I feel like he's departed from himself. During the Smiths it felt so genuine and emotional, he was pouring his emotions out of his soul, now it just doesn't seem that way. I miss the shrieks and yelps of This Charming Man, the speed and adrenaline of Barbarism Begins at Home, and I have nothing to remedy this cure. Let Me Kiss You have the high-pitched singing, but it just doesn't feel real. Instead of a yelp you get that Ah ah ah, Let me Kiss Yoooooo-oooooou! It just sounds awkward and forced.

Is Morrissey a great artist still? Yeah, without a doubt. Am I being harsh? No, I vote for the Smiths, because they are my favorite and in my opinion better. I'm sure a lot of you will think I hate Moz after this, but any band would look horrible if I compared them to the Smiths except the Cure.

[egosheep]

any band would look horrible if I compared them to the Smiths except the Cure.

I'll agree with the rest of your post wholeheartedly, but I think the Cure also look horrible compared to the Smiths.

[Worm]

around that time, morrissey said in an audience Q+A that when the smiths were around, if he had been presented with the opportunity to either join the smiths or his current band, he would have chosen the latter.

This was on "Hangin' With MTV" in 1992. It was a memorable moment, because even Boz looked surprised. However, Morrissey thought about his answer and chose his words shrewdly, as one would expect of him. His "preference" for his current lineup over The Smiths can be interpreted as a preference for artistic control rather than the new band's playing abilities. Look back on his comments about The Smiths in 1984. The best compliment he ever paid to Boz, Alain, and the rest pales in comparison to the love he showered on The Smiths (mostly Johnny, but he also spoke glowingly of Andy and, yes, Mike).

[MyDoppelganger]

As much as i love The Smiths, for me Morrissey as a solo artist towers above - both lyrically & with the music his band have produced for him.

Boz Boorer is every bit a match for Johhny Marr & Morrisseys best solo work easily outstrips The Smiths best.

Anyone agree?

Show me one Boorer song that is better than something like The Queen is Dead (song), What She Said, Stretch Out and Wait, etc etc etc.

The Smiths, no doubt. I feel the Smiths' body of work is a lot more consistent. I can listen to (and enjoy) every Smiths album from start to finish. There's only two or three Moz albums that I can claim to do the same with.

You can't listen to shit like America is Not The World and tell me it's on par with something like The Boy With the Thorn.

3. The Singing. Ah yes. If you're not pissed yet, get ready to be . I really do not like Moz's voice at all anymore. I feel like he's departed from himself. During the Smiths it felt so genuine and emotional, he was pouring his emotions out of his soul, now it just doesn't seem that way. I miss the shrieks and yelps of This Charming Man, the speed and adrenaline of Barbarism Begins at Home, and I have nothing to remedy this cure. Let Me Kiss You have the high-pitched singing, but it just doesn't feel real. Instead of a yelp you get that Ah ah ah, Let me Kiss Yoooooo-oooooou! It just sounds awkward and forced.

I don't know about that. I think Morrissey's voice is still fantastic. He often reminds me of Roy Orbison. You can't listen to something like Life is a Pigsty and not be impressed. That final verse is wrenching.

[Anaesthesine]

I have to agree with Neader, this question always astounds me.

The musical alchemy between Morrissey and Marr is the type of thing that happens maybe once or twice in a generation. It's very clear to me that Moz and Marr pushed each other to the limits of their creativity, and that mutual inspiration is how great music is born. Everything else is Morrissey coasting at various speeds, punctuated with moments of undeniable brilliance.

Lord knows I love Boz - I think he's done an incredible job as Morrissey's bandleader, but he is in no way a musical visionary, nor is his talent anywhere near a match for Morrissey's. Alain is a wonderful songwriter, and he and Morrissey have produced some of my favorite music, but they are not musical equals by any means.

His "preference" for his current lineup over The Smiths can be interpreted as a preference for artistic control rather than the new band's playing abilities. Look back on his comments about The Smiths in 1984. The best compliment he ever paid to Boz, Alain, and the rest pales in comparison to the love he showered on The Smiths (mostly Johnny, but he also spoke glowingly of Andy and, yes, Mike).

I often think that Morrissey's fatal flaw is a kind of entitled laziness. Not as bad as drugs or booze (which is what kills so many great talents), but it may prove to be artistically fatal, nonetheless.

[modrevolve]

That can be fround at 5:30 into this clip..Being put on the spot like that, what else was he suppose to say..I miss the Smiths terribly..these wankers can't cut it?

This was on "Hangin' With MTV" in 1992. It was a memorable moment, because even Boz looked surprised. However, Morrissey thought about his answer and chose his words shrewdly, as one would expect of him. His "preference" for his current lineup over The Smiths can be interpreted as a preference for artistic control rather than the new band's playing abilities. Look back on his comments about The Smiths in 1984. The best compliment he ever paid to Boz, Alain, and the rest pales in comparison to the love he showered on The Smiths (mostly Johnny, but he also spoke glowingly of Andy and, yes, Mike).

[Worm]

I often think that Morrissey's fatal flaw is a kind of entitled laziness. Not as bad as drugs or booze (which is what kills so many great talents), but it may prove to be artistically fatal, nonetheless.

It is a kind of entitled laziness, yes. I think it really skews more toward incredible narcissism. You know the old Wilde line about putting his talent into his work and his genius into his life? Morrissey obviously feels that he is the work of art. By definition nothing he does is inartistic. The recent interview with Linder confirms this, if you read between the lines. The greater control he exerts over the other creative variables, the purer his self-expression.

He isn't necessarily wrong in believing this. I'm more than willing to call him a genius and admit that he and the work are basically the same thing (yes, I understand why it's dangerous to conflate art and artist; I mean in the final, final judgment it's true). But it's obviously a double-edged sword and opens him up to criticism as lazy-- lazy, self-absorbed, creatively inert, fatally solipsistic. Not that one would ever be so impertinent as to suggest he was any of those things. Just saying.

[Worm]

That can be fround at 5:30 into this clip..Being put on the spot like that, what else was he suppose to say..I miss the Smiths terribly..these wankers can't cut it?

Exactly. It was a masterfully political answer. That said, I believe he meant it. I do think he would have chosen that band over The Smiths had they existed simultaneously.

One additional dimension no one has yet mentioned is his collaboration with producers. I would hazard the remark that he simply shifted his creative collaboration from his guitarist/co-writer (Marr) to his producers (Street, Lillywhite, Langer/Winstanley, Ronson, Finn, Visconti). To my ears, Boorer/Whyte et al simply provided raw materials for the producers to mold. "Your Arsenal", for example, ought to be considered a Morrissey/Ronson album.

Actually you could go a step further and say that, aside from the first Smiths LP, Morrissey has never collaborated with a guitarist and instead "composed" the songs in a partnership with the producer-- Marr, of course, being a producer as well as a guitarist. Comparing his bands would thus become pointless-- from a certain point of view, Morrissey has never been in a band. A more correct analogy might be this: in terms of creative/power dynamics, in The Smiths Morrissey was Lieber to Marr's Stoller; in his solo career, Morrissey is Phil Spector recruiting various talents to embody his music. That is probably a more accurate picture...and keeps Johnny's true worth in mind, because the notion that he was "just another guitar player" is absurd.

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Exactly. It was a masterfully political answer. That said, I believe he meant it. I do think he would have chosen that band over The Smiths had they existed simultaneously.

One additional dimension no one has yet mentioned is his collaboration with producers. I would hazard the remark that he simply shifted his creative collaboration from his guitarist/co-writer (Marr) to his producers (Street, Lillywhite, Langer/Winstanley, Ronson, Finn, Visconti). To my ears, Boorer/Whyte et al simply provided raw materials for the producers to mold. "Your Arsenal", for example, ought to be considered a Morrissey/Ronson album.

Actually you could go a step further and say that, aside from the first Smiths LP, Morrissey has never collaborated with a guitarist and instead "composed" the songs in a partnership with the producer-- Marr, of course, being a producer as well as a guitarist. Comparing his bands would thus become pointless-- from a certain point of view, Morrissey has never been in a band. A more correct analogy might be this: in terms of creative/power dynamics, in The Smiths Morrissey was Lieber to Marr's Stoller; in his solo career, Morrissey is Phil Spector recruiting various talents to embody his music. That is probably a more accurate picture...and keeps Johnny's true worth in mind, because the notion that he was "just another guitar player" is absurd.

Worm, did you read the Word magazine article on Visconti? He doesn't talk much about Morrissey, but by making clearer the role dynamic producers have, it lends credence to your theory that Morrissey sought out producers to create with, rather than bands. It's just been posted today, there are links around. I just read it this morning.

[Worm]

Worm, did you read the Word magazine article on Visconti? He doesn't talk much about Morrissey, but by making clearer the role dynamic producers have, it lends credence to your theory that Morrissey sought out producers to create with, rather than bands. It's just been posted today, there are links around. I just read it this morning.

The interview with Nick Kent is even more telling. Describing true inspiration, he recounted watching The Smiths record "Stretch Out And Wait". (I can't copy and paste it, sorry) He said he watched Johnny arrive at the studio with a few chords, "work them up" into an arrangement with Mike and Andy, and then Morrissey showed up two hours later with words and a melody. "In literally three takes they were making the first mix". I can't recall many stories about Alain and Morrissey turning out a classic like they were casually brushing God-dust off their shoulders, can you?

Bono haters will be pleased to note that Kent used Mr. Hewson as an example of an artist who was decidedly uninspired. Not sure if I agree, but I do know I always like Nick Kent's perspective on vital matters like this.

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

The interview with Nick Kent is even more telling. Describing true inspiration, he recounted watching The Smiths record "Stretch Out And Wait". (I can't copy and paste it, sorry) He said he watched Johnny arrive at the studio with a few chords, "work them up" into an arrangement with Mike and Andy, and then Morrissey showed up two hours later with words and a melody. "In literally three takes they were making the first mix". I can't recall many stories about Alain and Morrissey turning out a classic like they were casually brushing God-dust off their shoulders, can you?

Bono haters will be pleased to note that Kent used Mr. Hewson as an example of an artist who was decidedly uninspired. Not sure if I agree, but I do know I always like Nick Kent's perspective on vital matters like this.

There is a funny passage in Visconti's interview in which he asks a London producer if he can see charts on a song. The London guy says, "We don't use them. We just light up a spliff and go."

The problem with pure creative genius like that is that it doesn't last. If you've been composing and listening and dreaming for years, you probably have a fair amount of stuff waiting to pour out. Maybe that's why The Smiths died. After the initial smattering of God-dust, it takes a lot of work to put out good creative work. You have to know how to work an idea up, let it go if it's not good, shape it. Once a career gets rolling, you don't have time to let your subconscious do all the work. Unless you're, like, Peter Gabriel, apparently. I'm thinking he's used up all his good ideas. After ten years, he just released an album of covers, his singing backed up by a string orchestra. Every song slowed way down, in what sounds like an attempt to touch profundity. It doesn't quite work. And I like Peter Gabriel, I like his voice very much.

Bono is uninspired, of course. Have you heard any of his songs lately? He used up all his good stuff by 1991. Achtung, Baby!

So can older artists really do anything interesting? If we're in our thirties and just getting going, have we any chance?

[CrookedLittleVein]

I don't mean to be dismissive of the whole debate (because there have been some really interesting and well-argued posts) but, to me at least, it really doesn't matter. A critical bird's-eye view is all well and good, but when you're listening to a song, you're at very close quarters with the thing and how you are feeling gets tangled up with what the song is expressing (both musically and lyrically) and the resultant mess is beyond rational criticism.

I listened to ‘The Father Who Must Be Killed’ this morning (a song that I normally find a little silly) and it just completely thrilled me. And I don't care why this should be.

Calm, measured, intellectual cataloguing of a song's (or an artist's) merits and flaws has its place (not least of which is that it makes for an entertaining 'brain game') but, as an activity, it is utterly removed from the thing it is attempting to analyse, as soulless as the songs are soulful.

Put another way, when I’m listening to ‘Nobody Loves Us’, I’m not thinking about ‘William, it was Really Nothing’.

[Amy]

You stand corrected. Look at him, he's not even breaking a sweat!!




For comparison... about half speed and the riffs are still wrong:

In the last clip - "As big as dinner plates" was one of Marr's rare lyrical suggestions, which Moz shelved and replaced with "bigger than dinner plates" for the recording. Minor change, but interesting that he should sing Marr's line at that moment.

[Worm]

Maybe that's why The Smiths died. After the initial smattering of God-dust, it takes a lot of work to put out good creative work.

I think the genre dried up. Despite the guitar-heavy C86 and grunge flare-ups from '86 to '92 or thereabouts, rock music could no longer be innovative in the late 80s. I think Marr was keenly sensitive to that. I know debate rages about the quality of Marr's work in electronic music but there's no question he was right in principle. The Smiths marked a more profound ending; they shut every door they walked through.

Every song slowed way down, in what sounds like an attempt to touch profundity. It doesn't quite work. And I like Peter Gabriel, I like his voice very much.

Not with you there I'm afraid. Rod Stewart for the gallery-crawling set? No thanks.

Bono is uninspired, of course. Have you heard any of his songs lately? He used up all his good stuff by 1991. Achtung, Baby!

The drummer still looks good.

So can older artists really do anything interesting? If we're in our thirties and just getting going, have we any chance?

Comes down to what sort of art you're attempting, don't it, like.

[nightingale+therose]

A stray from perfection for Moz (sits back and awaits fireworks)





NSAM on TOTP and ICMPTG on Tonight with JR..... aaah, sublime


.