Andrew Collins and Morrissey

[Jukebox Jury]

Oh yes just like the time Ryan Adams pulled on a Celtic shirt in Glasgow for his encore and looked shellshocked when half the crowd booed and threw their drinks - "but i thought this was the local team?" he said

Oh dear.......

Ian Brown (at the Manchester v Cancer gig 2007) pointed out Gary Neville in the crowd..... to half cheers / half boos......
He then said ''You City fans are so bitter'' but at least he is a Manc and was doing it to purely wind us up....... rather than to suck up to us...... no problem with that...... but Ryan Adams doing that in Glasgow of all places
Surprised he got out alive!

Jukebox Jury

[Nats1977]

Oh dear.......

Ian Brown (at the Manchester v Cancer gig 2007) pointed out Gary Neville in the crowd..... to half cheers / half boos......
He then said ''You City fans are so bitter'' but at least he is a Manc and was doing it to purely wind us up....... rather than to suck up to us...... no problem with that...... but Ryan Adams doing that in Glasgow of all places
Surprised he got out alive!

Jukebox Jury

Poor wee soul didn't know what he had done wrong, someone backstage might have told him! Funny you should say that mind you, he only played Edinburgh last time he toured...

[Maurice E]

I wonder if somebody might answer me this question.

Morrissey chose to boycott the NME after the August 1992 issue. He kept up this boycott for 15 years - an admirably committed stance. However, when Danny Kelly, Stuart Maconie and myself moved to Q magazine (Danny and Stuart in 1992, myself in 1993), Morrissey was happy to deal with us at Q. His quarrel was clearly with the newspaper itself, not the staff who worked on the cover story that offended him.

Morrissey gave a number of interviews to Q while we were there, and once came up to the Q office to approve some cover photographs - the only time I ever met him. He was charming on this occasion.

He clearly held nothing against any of us. Stuart remains one of his favourite writers. All three of us remain huge fans of Morrissey's solo work. Now, I know a certain strata of Morrissey fan still holds the Madstock issue against those who created it - and some presumably boycott the NME (especially after the more recent furore). But if Morrissey himself can move on. Surely we all can.

I'm really interested to know any thoughts you may have on this issue. And I hope my presence here does not offend anyone.

Whoops, I've come a little late to this debate! I think I can answer this one though. When the 'Flirting with Fascism' issue came out, I don't think it was particularly obvious who at the NME was involved, because no-one interviewed Morrissey. In the eyes of Moz, it was simply 'the NME'. During the 1992 UK tour, almost every night Moz would slag off the NME (Moz; "Does anybody hear still read the NME?" the audience "boo!").

If, when Moz had come up see you at Q for photo approval and you'd said "Hi, I'm Andrew. I'm one of the guys who ran that Madstock piece about you when I was at the NME", he may have been a little less charming!

The recent NME fall-out was clearly based around two specific journalists; Tim Jonze (interviewer) and Conor McNicholas (editor) both of whom were in contact with Morrissey's manager (Merck). Who can forget Tim's email to Merck where he said that Moz had been charming in the interview, and then went on to ask for some guest-list tickets before signing off 'love Tim'!
I'm pretty certain Moz will never agree to work with either of these two ever again, regardless of which publication they work for.

[Danny_]

I also think his dealings with Q were probably mainly restricted to speaking to Stuart Maconie who has broken ranks and been very critical of the NME story himself. He couldn't exactly boycott any publication that ever employed any NME journalist.

[Nats1977]

I hadn't thought of it like that. I suppose Morrissey & Madness must have looked good on paper with both being 'British Institutions' but I guess Madness fans gave him the same respect they'd give any support act.

i came across this blog featuring an "eye-witness" account that supports our assumptions...does anyone know if Andrew Collins et al were actually at the Madstock gig? I understand it was only one factor of their concerns but I wonder which NME writers actually attended the event...
http://pastelcollision.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/117/

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

That's more or less my final reading of the song, too. But like "Asian Rut", which isn't racist either, you find yourself asking why ethnicity is a part of the song in the first place. Sans the word "Asian", and with maybe a touch-up of the lyrics, it could have been a disturbing, atmospheric track about a crime like, say, "Michael's Bones".

Yes, but the racism angle fits better into Morrissey's apparent persecution complex, doesn't it? He seems to expect the worst from most people. And he's often right.

It doesn't matter. Morrissey isn't guilty of racism. I just think onlookers have a right to ask questions, that's all. I feel that way about most subjects Morrissey writes about, because (aside from meat) he usually writes with ambiguity or takes up some positions that are contradictory with his beliefs (e.g. being a gentle man who loves boxing).

He has a strong contrarian streak, that's obvious. But that's not unlike the Robert Smith quote I know I'm misquoting... "Whatever Morrissey says he hates, I'll do..." Sometimes he just likes to argue.

I don't know if this holds up to close scrutiny, but it's my little crackpot theory that The Smiths and Morrissey were once thought to be God-sends for the left-wing writers in the music press (break with 80s consumerism, the outcast vibe, the hate for Thatcher, vegetarianism, liberation for gays and women and-- lest we forget-- men) but as time went on they turned on Morrissey for failing to be a good little foot soldier for the left.

I think that's a really good theory. He refused to play the game. He still refuses. It may be sheer block-headedness, but you have to admire him for never, never breaking with his principles, even when it makes him look bad or costs him money.

And you can get some sense of how Andrew views the role pop groups should play in society. I don't think he's alone in that. Tough going in the press if you're a man who "wants to turn the world on its head by staying in bed".

That's exhausting. And why is it so? Why are pop groups expected to be the leaders in social reform? They are, in many cases, just virtual savants with guitars. Just because they have the balls to get up and sing in front of everyone does not mean that they have the brains or courage to be revolutionaries. Someone, please, tell Bono he can stop. Only John Lennon was John Lennon. Only MLK was MLK. Bono is only Bono, and he's rapidly turning into a caricature. (I admit, the other two were murdered before they had a chance to start looking silly.)

But, fortunately, only Morrissey is Morrissey. Most people don't understand him at all. He is, at the same time, very simple and very not-simple. He's always been sort of a caricature to some extent, posturing and posing before Madonna ever learned how. The difference is, he really meant it. That's just too much for our cartoon society to handle, I think. We're used to irony, and I think Morrissey is actually very un-ironic. I think he put Candy Darling and the lottery winning chick and the naked guy on Hand In Glove and Pat Phoenix on his sleeves NOT because it was tongue in cheek, but because he found something genuinely fascinating or admirable about them. He meant every word and every image.

[CrookedLittleVein]

We're used to irony, and I think Morrissey is actually very un-ironic. I think he put Candy Darling and the lottery winning chick and the naked guy on Hand In Glove and Pat Phoenix on his sleeves NOT because it was tongue in cheek, but because he found something genuinely fascinating or admirable about them. He meant every word and every image.

I agree with you regarding the 'un-ironic' quality in Morrissey's lyrics and imagery. I remember when I heard the lyric 'you said that irony was the shackles of youth' in REM's What's the Frequency Kenneth, I wondered if the 'you' was in fact Morrissey. It's a stretch, I know, but the 'Steven, turn away' comment on the 'Monster' sleeve may add a little weight to the theory. Only a little, though.

[lainey]

I also think his dealings with Q were probably mainly restricted to speaking to Stuart Maconie who has broken ranks and been very critical of the NME story himself. He couldn't exactly boycott any publication that ever employed any NME journalist.

I was thinking this too

[Worm]

Yes, but the racism angle fits better into Morrissey's apparent persecution complex, doesn't it?

You're right. The tracks could have lacked any reference to race and been just as effective, that's all I'm saying. Why open a can of...

Sometimes he just likes to argue.

...

never breaking with his principles, even when it makes him look bad or costs him money.

You were right on both counts-- don't forget that some of his "principles" might be bull-headed stubbornness and nothing more.

That's exhausting. And why is it so? Why are pop groups expected to be the leaders in social reform?

Well, some pop groups can be. The Clash, for example. I don't think Andrew's point of view is wrong in itself. Music can give you the right perspective and the right attitude. Though the songs can often be intellectually useless, they can at least be gateways to sources of information that aren't. If your personal politics are entirely wrapped up in "Sandinista" I feel sorry for you. But if "Sandinista" put a badge on your jacket and pointed you toward history, political theory, etc, then that's a good thing, right?

The problem I have with this point of view is that very few groups can actually pull off the trick of being political in any serious way. Those that can't, or seek to change attitudes in different ways, shouldn't be tarred and feathered. The editorial in 1992 mentioned Morrissey's apparent refusal to be a part of "the liberal consensus in the more compassionate side of the media", which instantly made me think of "the smelly little orthodoxies contending for our souls" Orwell mentioned over half a century ago in his essay on Dickens. Sometimes there's tremendous disappointment when our best artists aren't willing to fight for the political causes we back in the way we'd like them to.

Someone, please, tell Bono he can stop. Only John Lennon was John Lennon. Only MLK was MLK. Bono is only Bono, and he's rapidly turning into a caricature.

Well, it's true Bono and U2 have gone completely off the deep end into sad self-parody. I had to grimace and slide lower in my seat as I was forced to watch a U2 ad for Blackberry in a movie theater over the weekend. That said, Bono has done more for poor people in Africa than anyone else. He deserves some respect. Lennon was a great figure for peace and love (and even some righteous anger) but he never campaigned tirelessly with actual heads of state as Bono has done.

We're used to irony, and I think Morrissey is actually very un-ironic. I think he put Candy Darling and the lottery winning chick and the naked guy on Hand In Glove and Pat Phoenix on his sleeves NOT because it was tongue in cheek, but because he found something genuinely fascinating or admirable about them. He meant every word and every image.

Mmmm. You're right in a limited sense. He did admire Viv Nicholson, Candy Darling, etc. The "irony" as such isn't in the images. I think the irony is buried deeper, within himself. You said he's simple and not-simple, and I think that is a very not-simple situation to be in. He's complicated. I think the irony is there, it just works on a different level than we're used to.

For example, in the case of the darling Candy image used for "Sheila Take A Bow", you can say that he genuinely liked her. It's not an ironical use of her image. But you can also say that the choice of image, from an intellectual standpoint, was "shallow". Think less a bookish Morrissey poring over an image database to find a perfect photo of a Factory personality and more him acting like (say) Marc Jacobs picking a color or a fabric for some new concoction of his. We like to supply his images with meaning but more often than not they're simply images that catch his fancy. You called those rockers 'savants' and that's exactly what Morrissey is. His artistic instincts are impeccable. And his instincts are playful and revel in striking ironies, only they're enigmatic and highly personal rather than the broader ironies we're used to seeing in the culture.

Morrissey embodies the warning in the Preface to The Picture of Dorian Gray: "All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril". You might say the job of the critic is to navigate the murky waters between those two approaches. Had a few critics done so with greater depth and sensitivity back in 1992...

[IDon'tOweYouAnything23]

Worm, (Going off-topic and not to lick your boots) I wish I could write like you. I hope you're old, It'll only depress me if you're young because I'm shite in comparison.

[Worm]

Worm, (Going off-topic and not to lick your boots) I wish I could write like you. I hope you're old, It'll only depress me if you're young because I'm shite in comparison.

Haha. Thank you.

Yes, I am old. Not to worry. You have many years to hone your skills so that you can plague message boards with TLDNR posts well into your golden years.

[This charming man.]

Oh dear.......

Ian Brown (at the Manchester v Cancer gig 2007) pointed out Gary Neville in the crowd..... to half cheers / half boos......
He then said ''You City fans are so bitter'' but at least he is a Manc and was doing it to purely wind us up....... rather than to suck up to us...... no problem with that...... but Ryan Adams doing that in Glasgow of all places
Surprised he got out alive!

Jukebox Jury

I wouldn't mind; Ian Brown isn't even a Manc. Reni and Mani are, so 1 red and 1 blue between those two. What's happened to Reni?

[CrookedLittleVein]

Haha. Thank you.

Yes, I am old. Not to worry. You have many years to hone your skills so that you can plague message boards with TLDNR posts well into your golden years.

Also going off-topic and not that I want to alarm you or anything, but are you aware that your avatar has turned into a lady?

[This charming man.]

Peter
You are right...... artists do pander to the audience to seek approval..... I'm sick of bands / artists (usually American) name checking a ''certain football club'' from just outside the Manchester boundary in a cheap knowledge that there will be a cheer of approval..... New Kids On The Fucking Block disgracefully this year came on for the encore wearing the replica shirts of said team - a far bigger crime in my eyes than what Morrissey did and the twats probably played the following night in Birmingham and wore Villa shirts

I think Morrissey just read this one horribly wrong on the day.

Jukebox Jury

Bitter, bitter bitter! By the way, Aston is in Birmingham, so there would be no issue with your last sentence. Come back to me after 11 prem titles.

[Worm]

are you aware that your avatar has turned into a lady?

That's Patti. She's from an old New Order video. Lovely, no? You should see the larger version on the cover of New Order's 1989 tour book. She has lips that would make Angelina Jolie eat six of her foundlings in envy.

I changed my avatar to a lady in the hopes that Andrew Collins might respond in more detail to my posts. Words didn't seem to do the trick.

[CrookedLittleVein]

I changed my avatar to a lady in the hopes that Andrew Collins might respond in more detail to my posts.

With that avatar, he may well turn up at your house. Be prepared.

[Worm]

With that avatar, he may well turn up at your house. Be prepared.

If he learned his research skills at the NME, I'm not worried.

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Yes, I am old.

...an old New Order video.

I don't like your definition of old.

[Worm]

I don't like your definition of old.

We are who we are, as a wise woman once told me.

Look, I'm still hip. I've got my finger on pop culture's pulse. Just last night I re-organized my collection of decorative Broadway plates to the way cool happenin' sounds of Dee-Lite and Naughty By Nature. M'kay? Don't bury me just yet, I'm as young as I feel thanks very much.

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

We are who we are, as a wise woman once told me.

Look, I'm still hip. I've got my finger on pop culture's pulse. Just last night I re-organized my collection of decorative Broadway plates to the way cool happenin' sounds of Dee-Lite and Naughty By Nature. M'kay? Don't bury me just yet, I'm as young as I feel thanks very much.

Groove, like youth, is truly in the heart.

You know Harriet?