Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
So he has an opinion. I like the song. Always have. I can enjoy it until the day I die. Nothing Collins wrote or will ever write about the song can change that.Originally Posted by lainey
I don't really get the point of your post. Can you explain it?
"Cried over my supper, it revived. Got off the table... started to fly."
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
For me the issue isn't how Morrissey feels about the NME or any of the individual journalists. I couldn't care less about that particularly as we all know how sensitive he is to criticism so he's hardly a reliable barometer.
It's how those journalists operate and justify themselves. It being a good story that will sell seems to be the primary motive. OK, fair enough, you want to sell a lot of issues, but don't try and justify it by trying to claim some integrity for it. Racism is a massive stick to beat someone with and if you don't like it being used against your friends maybe you should stop and think before you use it against anyone else (or at least admit you were wrong to do so in the past).
Morrissey is a rich man who has other ways of being heard but there are plenty of other people who get stomped on by this attitude who have no recourse. Very few will be allowed to write their own response and get it published in The Guardian like Richard Herring, he only gets that because he is a media insider. But this is a problem all through the privileged media world where a good story and individual ambitions are far more important than the truth or real people's feelings.
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
I wish it weren't so, but I kind of agree with him (well, the description of the song, anyway). It still sounds strangely disorganised. Like there were some good ideas floating around but they didn't necessarily belong together. The Tears did an entire album of this kind of thing.
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
I think the drums are very boring in the song. The bass line is very simple with a bit of ambition during the outro.
The guitars are fine as is the vocal. It's not a great song but it's a good song and it was nice at the time to have something to turn up loudly from the solo selection.
"Cried over my supper, it revived. Got off the table... started to fly."
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
And your point is ...what?
A reviewer didn't like a song.
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
My God, I'm re-reading the original articles from 1992.
For those with strong stomachs
First, go to the bottom of the page. Andrew compiled a few dozen soundbites given by Morrissey over the years in which he made dubious statements about race. If there was concern at the NME over the story being one-sided, why in the world was this sidebar added? It's one thing to say, "Morrissey didn't give us his side". It's another thing entirely hit him with a tidal wave of decontextualized statements made over many years.
"ANDREW COLLINS presents a catalogue of quotes that may, or may not, add to the overall case for his 'prosecution'. You are the jury." How is it fair-minded to then list every single bad thing he's ever said, with nothing in balance to show that Morrissey has always stood for kindness, compassion, and tolerance?
Elsewhere.
"Therefore when he sends out signals on subjects as sensitve as those discussed above there seems little room for playfulness, never mind ambiguity."
I ask again: how is this different than Herring's podcast about hating Pakistanis? Hating Pakistanis isn't a sensitive subject?
"In Europe in 1992, with 'Ethnic Cleansing' a reality and the new Nazis on the rise across the continent, the need for clear thinking and clear statements is more acute than ever."
To which should have been added something like: "It is a fool's errand to try and hold Morrissey's feet to the fire in an attempt to get a clear statement from him on just about anything aside from meat, and therefore we are left in a quandary. For now: presumed innocent."
Was the story about racism? There's a section I'd forgotten describing "Machiavellian behind-the-scenes manoeuvres" about bumping The Farm the bill. What did this have to with anything, other than painting Morrissey out to be a conniving, unsavory character? Jesus, the story runs from The Farm being bumped to Morrissey's unethical use of Derek Ridgers' photograph!
Look at this sleight-of-hand:
The Farm's payback eventually came when Morrissey took the stage. Morrissey's affection for the skinhead and nationlist imagery was given its most public display ever at Finsbury Park. With Derek Ridgers' skinhead photos used as a backdrop, he waved and wrapped a Union Jack flag around his torso.
Notice how it reads "Morrissey's affection for...nationalist imagery". It is only true in the sense that some of the same symbols and images are used by both racists and those merely proud of England. Morrissey's love of the Union Jack isn't an example of loving nationalist imagery. It might be, but that's far from a fact. 'Nationalism' is too loaded a word. But that's not the worst of it! In the next sentence there's this gem:
Meanwhile, outside the park's perimeter, Union Jacks were also brandished — by National Front and British Movement supporters congregating to confront a Troops Out march.
See what they did? "Morrissey sported a Union Jack inside the venue. The NF sported Union Jacks outside the venue". Funny how Morrissey and the National Front sort of seem like allies in that paragraph. Interesting how these things happen in a carefully-edited piece of journalism!
The rest of the section isn't an "impassioned" plea for a sensible discussion of race and the meaning of Englishness in 1992, but a bunch of random musings by Flowered Up and (again) The Farm. No facts on offer. No reasonable arguments. No intelligent discussion of the "racism" flap. Just Peter Hooton rambling on about how out of touch Morrissey is, out of tune with public opinion, "I think he's a very very sad and mixed-up man". What did the editors intend, if not to use Peter Hooton as a mouthpiece to vent the opinions they didn't want to stand behind?
Sorry, this post is getting disorganized, but it's a treasure trove of howlers. I just laughed at the incredible smugness of the line "the liberal consensus in the more compassionate side of the media". Was Morrissey really a right-wing racist? Or did his own sense of compassion simply not fit into the orthodoxy of the liberal journalists at the NME?
"Morrissey's flirtation with racism didn't really begin until...". I see-- but it did begin, then? That's a fact?
The summation of Morrissey's history is a joke. Here is the NME's timeline: 1986 ("Panic")-- 1988 ("Bengali In Platforms")-- 1991 ("Asian Rut")-- and then the two offensive songs on "Your Arsenal", 1992. Counting at home? That's five songs out of, what, a hundred and twenty? Over a span of eight years? In which he released many other songs extolling kindness, love, gentleness, compassion for outsiders, etc?
"Morrissey, however, must be aware of what flag-waving means in the Euro-90s". Really? Why? Collins pulled this quote from our favorite "egotist" later in the issue: "I despair of politics and, interestingly, the 'murder' of Margaret Thatcher was the last point of my interest. I'm not interested in John Major, The Gulf War I didn't care about or want to know about, so I'm certainly less political than I was." Why is it assumed Morrissey knew about "the Euro-90s" when he didn't even care about The Gulf War?
Just a few paragraphs later, Morrissey's music is said to have roots in black music-- and it is then asserted that Morrissey is probably unaware of this rich irony. So if he flirts with the Union Jack, he "must be aware" of its deeper meaning, but of the music on his own album he is utterly ignorant?
Then we have the most ridiculous parts of the piece, the ones concerning the danger in all this. We are the danger, apparently. "Gullible Morrissey acolytes and fans who hang on his every word and applaud his every image-move (only a percentage; I'd wager some think for themselves)". Thanks for "some", NME! Later: "Not all of his audience are as smart as him". Morrissey's songs and comments are dangerous to the "the gullible or suggestible fan". Eh?
The batch of articles ends with a final sucker-punch from Collins himself talking about how much money some Morrissey fans wasted because of his no-show. "189.60. For nothing but disappointment". Unfair. Uncalled for. Far from an unbiased discussion of Morrissey and racism.
Sorry for the ramble.
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
You're too generous, Worm. Not even those songs support an interpretation of Morrissey as a racist. Not for anyone who listens to them. But I suppose we're way too far gone to even bother defending those songs.
It's sad that Morrissey has been so widely misinterpreted, but... the one element that stands out here is Collins' insistence that Morrissey confirmed these allegations by refusing to defend himself against them. Yes, he did refuse to address them, for the most part. Which must surely be intentional, because he has eyes and ears and reads all this too. He surely knew how this would play out, and did nothing in particular to stop this ridiculous spin into name-calling and clever editing. And this says the most to me: Morrissey let the British press frame him up like that. So who was really in control? I vote for Morrissey. He manipulated the press puppets. The end result doesn't make him look great, and many people will and do believe that portrayal of him, but I suspect that he doesn't really care. I think it's more interesting to him to accept the taint of martyrdom (which feeds his backward ego) and watch the press pervert the concept of journalism for the sake of sales.
Even Collins admitted it: Kylie doesn't sell magazines. Morrissey does.
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
Nah, Morrissey didn't manipulate anything. He did what he always does in difficult situations, especially early in his career, stuck his head in the sand, went to ground and hoped it would go away.
Difference is, I don't interpret that response as an admission of guilt like those journalists did. I interpret it as the actions iof a shy man prone to depression who found it hard to deal with the pressure of his position when faced with a barrage of unfounded allegations. Also, for someone of quite excessive pride like Moz I think he probably felt to answer such ridiculous allegations would just make him look ridiculous, like begging for forgiveness when you haven't done anything.
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
Well, I am.
Of course the songs aren't racist. I do allow for the fact that they represent a complicated worldview that does require some thought to understand, however. Those are five songs that can be singled out (along with numerous quotes, as the NME showed) as reflecting some of Morrissey's more ambiguous positions. I've never denied that Morrissey has said some dumb things and made bad choices with regard to his imagery. But I have maintained that he deserves a more sophisticated critical assessment, and that such an assessment would show that his total body of work answers any doubts those few songs might create in our minds. (Not to mention that these "dodgy" songs can each be explained away.)
I think what amuses me is that the NME suggested-- within the space of a single article-- that his flirting with racist imagery was a danger to the nation because of Morrissey's "vast influence", yet the only people they can actually imagine as being susceptible to Morrissey's influence are a small cadre of "gullible, stupid, easily-led" fans who "aren't as smart as he is". Incredible.
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
Worm, you make some very good arguments but to only list NME's 5 songs of reference and completely leave out all of the other statements attributed to his quotes seems like you are trying make an argument for something rather than state the facts. That's just my take on it. I could be wrong but this is what journalists do.
Why did Collins write the story the way he wrote it? Perhaps he wanted to be provocative, perhaps he wanted to sell papers, perhaps he truly believed what he wrote. I don't know. Only he knows.
Why did Morrissey respond with silence? Was he sticking his head in the sand as was suggested? Dunno. Was he completely furious that he couldn't respond? Maybe. Did he feel that the subject was so outrageous that responding would only give it credibility? Could be.
There is so much speculation going on here and people are defining the reasons people did things. I don't mind the speculation but I don't understand why people are speaking so matter of factly about something that they were not part of (except for Collins) and has nothing to do with them.
Here are all the Moz quotes from the article as written on: http://motorcycleaupairboy.com/inter.../caucasian.htm
"Take me back to dear old Blighty..."
So sang Cicely Courneidge in The L-Shaped Room, as grafted onto the evocative intro to 'The Queen Is Dead''s opening title track.
The '60s kitchen sink movie is one of Morrissey's pet favourites; the use of the patriotic pub singalong a mere atmosphere-setting quirk on an album littered with ambiguous pro/anti-nationalist signals. But, as ever with the controversy-courting bard of Whalley Range, it conjures images of Old England, Dunkirk spirit, British bulldog nostalgia and — stop us if you've heard this one before.
Throughout The Smiths' dazzling, media-friendly career, and on into Morrissey's own, provocative soundbites have been Steven Patrick's stock-in-trade.
Here, ANDREW COLLINS presents a catalogue of quotes that may, or may not, add to the overall case for his 'prosecution'. You are the jury. But don't qote us on that.
"I'm really chained to those iron bridges. I'm really chained to the pier. I'm persistently on some disused clearing in Wigan. I shall be buried there, I'm sure, and I shall be glad to go at that point." (Morrissey, Feb 1984)
"I think the main blemish on this country is absolute segregation which seems to appear on every level, with everything and everybody. There is no unity." (Morrissey, Feb 1984)
"I'm not totally averse to violence. I think it's quite attractively necessary in some extremes. Violence on behalf of CND is absolutely necessary... obviously CND care about the people and that's why they do what they do. That's patriotism." (Morrissey, December 1984)
"The common sense for the future is to try and preserve as much as we can from the past." (Morrissey, December 1984)
"Reggae is vile." (Morrissey, NME questionnaire, February 1985)
"Personally, I'm an incurably peaceable character. But where does it get you? Nowhere. You have to be violent." (Morrissey, March 1985)
"Happiness is eating an ice cream, happiness can be Bernard Manning..." (Morrissey, April 1985)
"The memories I have of being trapped in Piccadilly bus station while waiting for the all-night bus, or being chased across Piccadily Gardens by some 13-year-old Perry from Collyhurst wielding a Stanley knife." (Morrissey, September 1986)
"Reggae to me is the most racist music in the entire world. It's an absolute glorification of black supremacy." (Morrissey, September 1986)
"I detest Stevie Wonder." (Morrissey, September 1986)
"I think Diana Ross is awful." (Morrissey, September 1986)
"Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, I think they're all vile in the extreme." (Morrissey, September 1986)
"Obviously to get on Top Of The Pops these days one had to be, by law, black. I think something political has happened and there has been a hefty pushing of all these black artists and all this discofied nonsense into the Top 40... In essence, this music doesn't say anything whatsoever." (Morrissey, September 1986)
"To those who took offence at ('Panic''s) 'Burn down the disco' line I'd say — please show me the black members of New Order! For me, personally, New Order make great disco music, but there's no black people in the group. You can't just interchange the words 'black' and 'disco'." (Johnny Marr, February 1987)
"On the racism charge, then, any judge would declare Morrissey the hapless victim of a lynch mob. Mind you, with people who put their heads into nooses for fun — remember 'all reggae is file', M? — the occasional fatality gets filed as an industrial accident." (Danny Kelly, NME February 1987)
"I believe that everything went downhill from the moment the McDonalds chain was given license to invade England — don't laugh, I'm serious. To me it was like the outbreak of war and I can't understand why English troops weren't retaliating. The Americanisation of England is such a terminal illness — I think England should be English, and Americans should go home and spoil their own country." (Morrissey, September 1987)
"In Morrissey's mind, ('Bengali In Platforms') may be a profound statement about personal alienation, but unfortunately it would go down very well at a singalong after a National Front picnic." (Review, Q magazine, March 1988)
"Even the English language, I find, has been hoplessly mucked about with and everything is American or Australian. It's astonishing but it's so rife. But because Margaret Thatcher is such a weak Prime Minister any influence American business wishes to have on England, it has. They've completely taken over Newcastle."
I thought that was the Japanese?
"Well, American/Japanese, they're all foreign... I don't mean that." (Morrissey, February 1989)
"I rarely watch TV, I never read a newspaper. I feel separate from the political world. I just find it harder and harder to care. I despair of politics and, interestingly, the 'murder' of Margaret Thatcher was the last point of my interest. I'm not interested in John Major, The Gulf War I didn't care about or want to know about, so I'm certainly less political than I was." (Morrissey, May 1991)
"I'm incapable of racism, even though I wear this T-shirt and even though I'm delighted that an increasing number of my audience are skinheads in nail varnish. And I'm not trying to be funny, that really is the perfect audience for me. But I am incapable of racism, and the people who say I am racist are basically just the people who can't stand the sight of my physical frame. I don't think we should flatter them with our attention. ... The sight of streams of skinheads in nail varnish, it somehow represents the Britain I love. Wouldn't it be awful to find yourself 'followed' by people you didn't want? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the skinhead was an entirely British invention."
Do you pine for a mythical Britain?
"Perhaps. It's certainly gone now. England doesn't only not rule the waves, it's actually sunk below them. And all that remains is debris. But in amongst the debris shine slits of positivity."
If you aren't a racist, are you a patriot?
"Yes, I am. I find travelling very hard. I miss England." (Morrissey, May 1991)
"I don't want to sound horrible or pessimistic, but I really don't think, for instance, black people and white people will ever really get on or like each other. The French will never like the English. The English will never like the French. The tunnel will collapse." (Morrissey, August 1992)
"I'm not a football hooligan... but I just undertand the character." (Morrissey, August 1992)
"When I see reports on the television about football hooliganism in Sweden or Denmark or somewhere, I'm actually amused. Is that a horrible thing to say?" (Morrissey, August 1992)
"I don't want to be European. I want England to remain an island. I think part of the greatness of the past has been the fact that England has been an island." (Morrissey, August 1992)
"Even while denouncing racial prejudice in stirring fashion, he was wont to admit that he disliked Pakistanis. 'I don't hate Pakistanis, but I dislike them immensely' was his flippantly blunt adolescent observation (1977)." (Johnny Rogan, The Severed Alliance)
"Cried over my supper, it revived. Got off the table... started to fly."
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
Are you a music journalist, Worm? You should be.Well, I am.
Of course the songs aren't racist. I do allow for the fact that they represent a complicated worldview that does require some thought to understand, however. Those are five songs that can be singled out (along with numerous quotes, as the NME showed) as reflecting some of Morrissey's more ambiguous positions. I've never denied that Morrissey has said some dumb things and made bad choices with regard to his imagery. But I have maintained that he deserves a more sophisticated critical assessment, and that such an assessment would show that his total body of work answers any doubts those few songs might create in our minds. (Not to mention that these "dodgy" songs can each be explained away.)
I think what amuses me is that the NME suggested-- within the space of a single article-- that his flirting with racist imagery was a danger to the nation because of Morrissey's "vast influence", yet the only people they can actually imagine as being susceptible to Morrissey's influence are a small cadre of "gullible, stupid, easily-led" fans who "aren't as smart as he is". Incredible.
Peter
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
I remember being very disappointed, especially with it being the first Morrissey/Whyte collaboration, and thinking it didn't bode well for the future. And then, a few weeks later, I dropped 'You're the One for Me, Fatty' onto my turntable and I was so relieved. I still love that song. It got quite a lot of airplay and I remember the people at my work singing along, despite not liking Morrissey or The Smiths.
And then 'Your Arsenal': a complete revelation.
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
Last night I read an album review in iTunes that sounded just like Worm wrote it. It wasn't a user-submitted review. Maybe he is. Maybe not.Are you a music journalist, Worm? You should be.
Peter
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
Did you miss that I started my rambling post with a link to the quotes and immediately afterward directed any interested readers to scroll down to the bottom to look specifically at that section?
You seem to be interested in the question of whether or not Morrissey is racist, or whether he said or did anything that might have caused right-minded people to ask that question in good faith. I think Morrissey's thoughts about race and nationalism are certainly open to questioning and I do think he said and did enough to warrant an inquiry. The point, though, is to have a fair assessment of these questions. Collins said "we are the jury", but that was a kangaroo court if ever I saw one.
I already stated how I believe this relates to me, as a fan, and not to Morrissey. Nor am I stating "facts". I am interpreting Andrew's recent statements and (earlier today) took a look at the original articles in light of his claim of acting fairly and with moral seriousness. We have a right to judge on that basis. He's a journalist. The NME and Morrissey are in the public domain. I don't presume to say what was in Andrew's mind and I have nothing against him personally. I only mean to say that what came out on the page was grossly unfair to Morrissey.
To balance the avalanche of unfortunate quotes you posted, I would encourage any interested parties to explore the following:
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
Haha, you're too kind, Peter. I'm not catholic enough in my tastes. I think I'm doomed to be a watchdog of actual working journalists.Are you a music journalist, Worm? You should be.
Peter
I think people are going to get the impression that I still care about this stuff. I would have gone another five or ten years without thinking of the 1992 incident had Danny not posted the link to Andrew's blog. I'm not that fired-up, really. I've forgiven the NME. It was several years ago now that I had the "DIE, NME" tattoo lasered off my chest.
It must have been tragically over-written and mercifully under-read.
Last edited by Worm; July 30, 2009 at 08:41 PM.
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
I got the link from your post but I thought your selective quoting was a little confusing.
I know it may not seem like it from the way I've posted but I don't believe Morrissey is racist. I do think it is an interesting discussion. I think he has said many things over time that might make people think that but that's on them.You seem to be interested in the question of whether or not Morrissey is racist, or whether he said or did anything that might have caused right-minded people to ask that question in good faith. I think Morrissey's thoughts about race and nationalism are certainly open to questioning and I do think he said and did enough to warrant an inquiry. The point, though, is to have a fair assessment of these questions. Collins said "we are the jury", but that was a kangaroo court if ever I saw one.
I already stated how I believe this relates to me, as a fan, and not to Morrissey. Nor am I stating "facts". I am interpreting Andrew's recent statements and (earlier today) took a look at the original articles in light of his claim of acting fairly and with moral seriousness. We have a right to judge on that basis. He's a journalist. The NME and Morrissey are in the public domain. I don't presume to say what was in Andrew's mind and I have nothing against him personally. I only mean to say that what came out on the page was grossly unfair to Morrissey.
To balance the avalanche of unfortunate quotes you posted, I would encourage any interested parties to explore the following:
My comment about stating things as fact was less directed at you and more so at other people in the thread.
I thought the avalanche of posts was pretty fair in that there are times where he clearly denies being racist in anyway. I think that Morrissey is someone who strongly believes in being English and doesn't like to see non-English people changing the landscape of the country. The term non-English does not equate to non-white. I think the racism accusations are missing that point.
Last edited by bored; July 30, 2009 at 08:55 PM.
"Cried over my supper, it revived. Got off the table... started to fly."
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
Collins is just another to stick in the knife, for the sake of selling a rag.
"You have killed me Jose' but my heart is free"
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
Selling a rag is his job.
I think the article is actually well done in that they covered it from a lot of aspects. It makes for an interesting read. Worm did point out some contradictions where they state Morrissey is X and then later said Morrissey is not X but spicing up the article is the job of a writer. Also, Collins was one of 3 people who worked on it and he said he didn't actually write the review of the show stuff, just the quotes and the like.
In fact, this article was so well written that 17 years later we are still talking about it.
"Cried over my supper, it revived. Got off the table... started to fly."
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
Exactly right. You could apply the same comment he made in the Importance of being Morrissey when asked about his sexuality.
Interviewer: "Why have you not set the record straight?"
Morrissey: "I don't see a crooked record."
perfect
"It's not your bidet anymore."
Re: Andrew Collins and Morrissey
Well, I admitted my post was a ramble. I was ALT-TABbing as I re-read the article and blabbed into the Moz-Solo box. That said, I stand by what I did pluck out. I can do a more detailed, methodical analysis, as I have done in the past-- you might have missed when I completely re-wrote the article from the Conor McNicholas era-- though I will spare us all any more horror. My hands are tired.
No, I know that. And I think it's a very interesting discussion, too. I can think of many enlightening conversations we have all had around these parts about this very subject. But you don't get anywhere unless you start from the position that you're going to try and unravel a complicated issue with sensitivity and imagination. The NME, as I quoted, started from the position that times were too perilous to risk anything but clear statements. The outcome of their "inquiry" was inevitable.
Have you actually gone to Andrew's blog? He makes a very convincing case for Herring as an anti-racist. He was most articulate and generous in defense of his friend. What do you think those 1992 articles would have read like, had Andrew and his colleagues taken that point of view instead of the one they did?
That's a good point on the non-whites.
This subject is harder for me to talk about because I'm not English and nationalism in America is a different kettle of fish. I don't know how English people view Morrissey's behavior. It's probably fair to say that Morrissey forces us to re-think some of these questions, though. A lot of left-wing writers talk with great dismay about the movement toward globalization we see happening all around us thanks to the unleashed monster of late capitalism. There isn't going to be an England or an America or a France anymore, just zones of commerce featuring brand-names that used to be called countries. None of these liberals bats an eyelid talking about that. I read the quote about McDonald's "ruining" England and thought, "Yes, he's on to something there". Maybe we can't adopt all of his views-- some, as I wrote, are flat-out dumb-- but they might force us to re-examine some basic questions that political correctness has glossed over to its detriment.
Oh, by the way. Who was it Morrissey paid tribute to at his show the other night? Churchill, was it? Richard II? Oh, that's right-- Jean Charles de Menezes. I suppose that's another case of Morrissey "not really understanding what he's doing". He has those episodes, you know. They alternate with his periods of "knowing exactly what he is doing".
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