Viva Veganism!

A lot of people go vegetarian because they empathize with animals. I find it hard to believe that so many people who post on this message board seem completely devoid of any empathy -and not just in regard to animals, but with each other. I'm always amazed by the hurtful remarks people direct towards one another here. I thought Moz fans would be more thoughtful? "It's so easy to laugh, it's so easy to hate, it takes strength to be gentle and kind."

P.S. I'm not religious. Please don't start blah blah blahing just because I mentioned god.

So I do not consider at all that meat is murder. People that blame me because I eat meat should blame their pets too. Never seen an alley tom eating vegetables come on. Cheers !

eat your meat, it is good for you

one thing i wish to comment on: leather is a by-product of the meat industry. by purchasing leather, one does not create a demand for more death as when purchasing meat.

A vegetarian diet provides all the nutrients a person needs, is a good source of carbohydrate and a wholly adequate source of protein, while meat has been linked to some types of cancer as well as heart desease, and the excess protein it often provides linked to osteoperosis and kidney failure. It is also possible to eat in almost exactly the same way as before after you have become a vegetarian, by eating veggie versions of meat products eg burgers, sausages etc. Have you ever heard of a cause of death being recorded as 'vegetarianism'?

Anyone who tries to justify killing and suffering in terms of nature is wrong - hasn't nature taken us to a point where it's not necessary anymore?

As the man said: "It's death for no reason".

More people should.

All vegitarian and meat eating animals are welcome!

There is simply no excuse for anyone who considers herself or himself to be an ethical human being, let alone an "animal lover," to be supporting these kinds of practices, all of which are routine and universal throughout the industries which turn animals into meat products.

If I can't watch it happening, I want no part of it. I enjoy watching fields tilled and love picking apples and tomatoes and carrots and other vegetarian products. If slaughterhouses had glass walls, as Paul McCartney is so fond of saying, we would all be vegetarians.

Every time I sit down to eat, I make a decision about who I am in the world: Do I want to add to the level of violence, misery, and bloodshed in the world? Or, do I want to make a compassionate and merciful choice? There is so much violence in the world, from war torn regions of Africa and Europe, to our own inner cities. Most of this violence is difficult to understand, let alone influence. Veganism is one area where each and every one of us can make a difference, every time we sit down to eat. I find it empowering that I can make an option for peace and compassion every time I eat, simply by not encouraging violence and misery against animals.

I think of meat much like I think of furs. It is no longer necessary to kill furry creatures to keep warm (not where I come from anyway). Therefore, I see no reason why the cruelty of the fur business should continue. We now know enough about nutrition that we can create yummy, veggie diets for ourselves that contain the necessary amounts of proteins, and nutrients we need to live healthy (heathier) lives. Why should we continue to eat meat when we can avoid it. Are we so important that if it tastes good, that justifies the cruelty that brought it to your plate?

Only expressing my views here...Morrissey was a sort of role model I suppose but I didn't stop eating meat because he did it. It's too big of a change to make for someone else. You must do it for yourself, and your own reasons.

Why don't you come down and bring some of those Canadian geese. You'd be the hit of the party. I'll even waive your $3.00 donation.

The RSVP's have been overwhelming! Most of the squirrels in the neighborhood are coming and I even heard a rumor that the aligator in the canal down the street(we can him "canaligator") is considering making an appearence. I'm kindof disappointed in the birds though, their copping attitudes for some reason this year!

Hurry, hurry, hurry.....space is limited!

Vegetarianism is the ONLY way 2go.

Lisa

Oh well, you probably knew all that anyway. Don't you mind me.

Theatre of the Absurd, ugh!!!

Anybody out there heard of the "blood-type diet"? It says that we are each genetically predisposed to eat certain types of food depending on blood-type. Type A = Vegetarian. Is Morrissey type A?

I say my truth, as does Morrissey, but I will not force my point of view on others.

Animals feel pain when they are debeaked, dehorned, declawed, placed on hooks, and have their throats sliced. Meateaters like to say there is too much suffering going on in the world to care about lowly animals. I highly doubt those who use that argument care about any kind of suffering at all to even attempt to make some kind of change... and also, it takes no more energy or time to not eat dead animals, then it does to eat them.

This hasn't got much to do with vegetarianism though. We should really try to convert people in to a murder-free diet instead.
I just don't know how.

END OF DISCUSSION!!!

One day I will also be 40.
Is this because of his influence ?
I suspect so.

The Bible is not a comic book or some kind of joke. It is the true word of God, and it is an important resource for a Christian to have. It also figures into the views that some people have on eating meat. Don't make fun of it. There is a dangerous philosophy today called Tolerance. Tolerance works out great for the non-believer because they expect everyone to tolerate every perversion they hold dear to their heart, but you better believe the Christian doesn't receive the same tolerance towards their beliefs in Jesus and the Bible. If you want someone to respect your beliefs, you have to be willing to respect theirs too.

It's called survival of the fittest! Or in Morrissey's case...survival of the FAGGEST!!!

See you in hell!

At my upcoming "Open House for the Animals" we will have a room dedicated to Bible Study. My friend is an alter boy at the catholic church down the street and he said he's be happy to lead the sessions. I'll be sure to bring the question of meat eating and how it is viewed in the Bible.

regardless of how "intelligent" a cow or chicken may be, they DO feel pain and fear and i have no need or desire to eat them, and i don't.

its as simple as that; screw that "survival of the fittest" bulls**t. its completely unnecessary and yes, cruel, to participate in any way in the needless breeding and slaughter of other living creatures. why do it, unless you're simply an ignorant, loathesome and useless human creature--which most people are.

my advice to veggies: yeah, go ahead and try to convince your friends when they ask about vegetarianism, but don't bother shouting it from the rooftops; humanity is just too stupid and self-obsessed to care. just know that your choice does matter, damn the rest of the world.

Obviously "god" wants us to be carnivores, and that is truly evil, but I'm sure there's some nice quote that contradicts that.

I mean ARCH! A big gold one with the letter G in the middle and the saying, "Over 1 Billion Animals Saved" enscribed below. Where are you located Buck? You should really consider coming to one of these shindigs!!!

And people should not bring in God to defend their meat eating. I believe that since there are vegetarians out there, maybe we are God's way (if there even is a God) of saying meat consumption is wrong.

To all the veggies out there, continue the good you are doing. And by no means let ignorant people bring you down. As Emerson said "To be great is to be misunderstood." I often find that meat-eaters get almost belligerent with me. Is that because they know they are wrong, and that angers them??? As Moz would say "Well I Wonder?"

Lisa

It's completely impossible to be a pure vegan in the USA. Even the buildings which you go buy your food from are made from animal bi-products...(laughing)...and whether or not you buy your animal products second hand...you are still providing a second market for animal goods to be sold in...so mass production in the first market is effected so that they meet the demand for second hand products in the second hand hand market. I think they should make straw huts to sell whole foods in. :)

It's also funny to me how vegans overlook their the way they effect the lower class in the U.S. If the aim of veganism is to be considerate towards all life on Earth...then why take advantage of many Illegal-Aliens who work the fields all day to provide us with our precious fruits and vegetables for pennies on the dollar? If you are going to support the degradation of mankind...at least make sure that they get paid minimum wage, like the rest of us. It seems hypocritical to me to be considerate towards all the animals of the Earth...but to completely disregard the treatment of mankind. Yes, even Illegal-Aliens are part of mankind.

I say...if you're going to be a Purest..GO FRUITARIAN!!! :)

*Side note...I.N.S. agents don't make much effort in collecting illegal aliens from farms anymore.*

Viva Texas Rich!

If all else fails for Vegans and Vegetarians...GO FRUITARIAN!!!

Not to get off topic or anything but what do you dream about? You appear to be so ubnoxious and anxious! I would love to have some of that annoying energy. You must be a ravaging carnivore - for sure!

And about the lack of logic used in saying that animals are stupid so its okay to eat them...that is one of the worst arguments i have heard. I know of plenty stupid people, people with mental retardations, and people in comatose states, but we do not eat them or use their body parts just because they are "stupid". Just because a cow or pig cannot discuss poetry with us over a cup of tea does not mean it is stupid and deserves to be tortured and murdered.

THE QUESTION IS NOT, CAN THEY REASON? NOR, CAN THEY TALK? BUT, CAN THEY SUFFER?

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every

tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Only after the flood we were allowed to eat meat. Genesis 9: 3

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Even though I'm not a big believer in the Bible. I says right in there. That when God created us, God made us herbivores. Only when the flood subsided and there was no plants to eat, did God allow us to eat meat. Now since the plants are all back in full bloom, I'm sure that God would want us all to go back to our veggie diets.

However, a vegan diet can be the most efficient and healthy diet...

Plus, it looks like many of the greatest minds were vegetarian or vegan, Plato, Socrates, Pythagoras, Theano, Newton, Da Vinci, Franklin, and Einstein, for starters...

I've been vegan for almost 10 years... it's so worth it, probably the best decision I have made for myself (esp. my health). Go vegan!

The old testament is mostly myths with a moral to the story! Do you really think we ALL came from Adam and Eve? Do you really think there was a flood? If there was a flood....where is the scientific proof? I can see and feel dinosaur bones and know that they definately existed. Where in the bible does it mention anything about God creating dinosaurs? When did they exist in regards to the bible? So don't give me this crap about the book of Genesis, it means nothing!

Sharks don't hunt people! If they did, they would just sit out there waiting for swimmers and pick us off one at a time! It would be easier than taking candy from a baby! And what do you know about surfing anyway? You live in Florida! Florida surfers are crap! You're story is B.S! Keep to the topic!

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against thestones."(Psalm 137:9, KJV)"Happy the man who shall seize and smash your little ones against therock!"(Psalm 137:9, New American Bible)"a blessing on anyone who seizes your babies and shatters them againsta rock!"(Psalm 137:9, Jerusalem Bible)
Comment
Ask a Christian friend whether he or she should feel happy to dash achild against the rocks. Your friend will most likely stare at you inhorror, much less believe this idea exists in their sacred Bible.

also in 2 kings 2:23-24

2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of

the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two

she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

god goes and kills children for making fun of a mans baldness.... a very loving and forgiving god, to be sure.

I won't even start talking about all the flaws in the flood story.

Frankie, I know the bible is all @#!!!ed up, I know about the inquistion, I know alot. I don't believe in it like some ppl, I was just making a comment that it supports vegetarianism....

Sheila...sorry I didn't list all the building materials that contain animal bi-products. My Vegan friend has a list of all the building materials that contain animal bi-products...I can see if i can get a hold of it and email it to you. As for a general idea of what those things are....glues, paints, thinners, insulation, cocking sealers, etc. I will try and get a more detailed list. :)

Viva Fruitarianism!!!! ;)

Jubal:

Ira meeks a god punt. Whey half know idiom watt does pee pill mint wind day sad does sings sew lawn ergo. Wash watt ewe save nexus thyme!

How's that for verb[i]age, Ira? You know like??

A Plant is a living thing. When you go and pluck a plant out of the ground...you kill it. If a plant could speak...would the plant say "Eat me...Kill me?" Yes, killing and animal is messier and more emotional. Last time I checked, ending a life against the living things will meant killing it. A plant will struggle to survive just the same as an animal...it's just a much slower process, but you may catch it's dying efforts to survive if you use time-elapsed photography stills.

The bottom line is...
Everyone is a hypocrite. Every living thing Exploits its surroundings. Everyone a Murderer.

Meat is Murder!
Veggies are Murder, Too!

If you want to be an extremist...
Go Fruitarian!!! ...........

oh wait.........if you do that.........you may be stealing the rotting fruit of a starved insect...which may lead to its death.

Let's Starve and Die!!!

MILK: ITS UNNATURAL.

i'm late (as usual) with posting to this particular argument. however, couldn't let it go by.

unlovable #22 ... bravo, couldn't have said it better myself.

carl #39 ... that is just so sad, don't even know where you are coming from.

dave #60 ... people can find other employment, let's keep in mind the BFP (big f'n picture) here. your argument is the same one used by the nuclear power people and the wood chip industry. ho hum.

helen #71 ... well, now i know, blow me down. i'm type a and my body does NOT like meat in it's diet. helen where exactly did you get your info?

and that's as far as i got tonight, it's late.

ciao julie

Therefore, they do not feel pain.
Stop making excuses for the pain, suffering and death that you cause by consuming meat.

THE LEATHER RUNS SMOOTH ON THE PASSENGER'S SEAT>>>>>

I used the terms exploit and murder with precision. I knew it would cause some people to emotionally respond and others to soberly/rationaly come to a conclusion...in hopes of feedback. I think there are some mighty intelligent people posting here...and I can't wait to hear some rebuttles and defenses for some of the statements.

I do however mean it when I said exploit and murder, whether voluntary or involuntary. Make sure you use a dictionary defention when you read such words...it is the way I intended to use them and use them effectively. One of the applications of the word exploit is: (coincidently reffering to afore mentioned topics)
Merriam-Webster- 2 : to make use of meanly or unjustly for one's own advantage (I swear that was in there and that I didn't add anything.) :)

murder:3 a : to put an end to b : TEASE, TORMENT c : MUTILATE, MANGLE d : to defeat badly
intransitive senses : to commit murder
--synonym see KILL--

Exploit:2 : to make use of meanly or unjustly for one's own advantage (exploiting migrant farm workers)

central nervous system notwithstanding -
plants DO respond to physical stimuli nonetheless.

regardless, your assumption that they therefore cannot feel pain is wishful thinking at best. anyone who has felt the very real sting of emotional grief can attest to the fact that, although not physical in nature, the pain is very real indeed.

what's to say that plants do not experience something similar on their own level (which we simply do not YET understand???

ouch...

So if you give up meat cus of him - don't be silly! (tishk tishk)

Let me start by saying that I'm not as "emotional" about this topic as you are assuming. Although, what's the harm with a little seriousness every now and again? Being serious about something does not imply that you have to be "sensitive" or "emotional," it just implys that you mean what you say; and that your saying things to educate, invoke, enlighten rahter than to rile up. That's what I have been doing. Yes, you have been quite sarcastic, a bit insulting here and there (connatitive), and you give off the presentation that this is all a joke to you. This is what you write, the truth can be otherwise. Although, some people who post (namely myself) do so with seriousness. Sometimes I want to actually discuss issues and get at points rather than run around debating word usage, and tone of argument. In the situation of a debate, I think I'm not the person that your looking for. Your general statements were absurd in themselves ('everyone's a murderer', 'everyone exploits everyone else'). It really isn't that complicated dear, it shouldn't have to require that much thought to see. If you can't see the absurdity, frankly I can't help you, maybe some else posting can.

I appreciate your sensarity in your last post, It's obvious that we have differeing obinions. I neither want to change yours, but rather if you make statements that I see to be untrue I will question them. If they are found to be true, then so be it, if not not, if they reamin in the grey then that just is. This is merly a messageboard, that's all that can be done. I expect nothing more than that.

I said everyone is a murderer...which is a hasty generalization on my behalf...but I believe that everyone at some point or another has taken a life. I don't know of anyone who's ever gone their whole life without killing an insect. Even though an insect is a minuscule creature, it is still a living organism. I wonder to myself...why people don't go around protecting insects as well...holding cockroach rallies in defense of the cockroach (I can picture it now, haha...Cockroach t-shirts and bumperstickers)...After all...isn't a living creature a "living creature" no matter what size it is? Yes, a cow is much bigger than a cockroach...but they are both equally alive. So how does one come to a measure of selectively picking and choosing what is classified as murder and what is not...when the equivalent outcome of ending their lives are the same. A central nervous system necessary?...bugs have them. I still believe this applies to plants...though not having an animal like nervous system...a plant is still able to distinguish between light and darkness...the need to regenerate and repair specific portions of it's structure when injured...temperature...seasons... resperation, water consumption...and all of this without a brain! Again, the plant does struggle to survive...an observant and un-biased examiner would agree. So if it struggles to live...I believe it deserves to...otherwise accept your own hypocrisy and be thankful for the sacrifice of its life to help you survive(This statement applies to those that believe that meat is murder). Take a moment to think next time you come upon a scampering, struggling, miniscule insect before you drop your foot on it or spray it. It is a living creature.

This is a bit humerous to me...I hope you can see the humor in this. If you can't...I understand. I am very serious in what I believe. Who ever established the rule that you can't make a serious point using humor? Many well-known people have left serious lasting impressions using humor....From Jesus Christ to the Director/Actor Roberto Benigni ("Life Is Beautiful").

Sheila...the fact that you made mention of your dissaproval to me using humor with this serious situation lead me to believe that you were speaking emotionally...but I guess I was wrong...your commentary which expressed your dissaproval of my use of humor...must have been through a non-emotionally induced logical perspective.

I made this statement before...

Everyone is a hypocrite. Every living thing Exploits its surroundings. Everyone a Murderer.

Every Living thing does exploit its surroundings. Plants exploit us for Carbon Dioxide...we exploit them for oxygen. Living things need to exploit to survive.

If the world has always managed to compensate for the various catastophies it has experienced (ie. ice age, various extinctions, ozone depletion etc.)...surely...it will compensate for our damage...it's called adaptation. The world is bound to outlive us.

i didn't give it up for moz, i gave it up for me and then decided it was a great thing to do, because of moz's lyrics..... (nobody gives up eating meat cos someone tells them to).

(oh and warren you made me laugh again.... veggies too puny and weak to play competitive sports.... lol).

ciao

Althoguh, for the idea of seriouness vs. humor I must elaborate. Humor has it's place, although there is a diference in humor that serves a purpose (makes a point), and humor that not only distracts from your points, but gives off the idea that you don't really mean or care about a single thing that your saying. The latter was the impression that I had been given from you previously, although now I can see it s otherwise through your shift of speech.

For the point on "explotation", you must realize what that word means to the other people before you use it lightly. Isn't our arrrangement with the plant world not only that? Plants are merly using us as pawns to further their own survival. Exploitation also has the dictonary defition of "an act that victimizes someone". And, normally when you use the word that's the first thing that people are going to think of. Tread lightly with it. Although, you made some very good points overall.

This is lucky for me as a Brit, as it means I've avoided the spectre of BSE and Scrapie that is even now stalking all who eat beef and lamb.

Just 'coz your government says it ain't poisoned doesn't mean it's safe!

Your choice, friends.

As the human race becomes more educated and civilised, we will challenge the primitive concepts and practices that have survived from our long history. I believe that killing animals unnecessarily will become a 'dying' trend.

Enough food for thought. Enjoy the Tour people!

I've been vegetarian all my life and have been an ethical vegan (no meat, dairy, eggs, honey, leather, silk, wool, ...) for the last ten years, yet I would not throw stones at leather-wearing vegetarians. These people are doing what they can to make a difference, and that *counts* for the many animals whose lives are spared as a result.

Many carnivores on this list have said that leather-wearing vegetarians are hypocrites, but what are they? I would like to ask these people: "Do they kick dogs in the street?", "Do they impale parrots with hooks?", "Do they slit the throats of kittens?" If not, why not? Indeed, these sorts of cruelties are visited upon farmed animals, at a rate of 9 billion every year in the U.S. alone. What is the philosophical backbone, I would like to know, of a person who says that it's fine to bludgeon a pig to death but that it's criminal to do the same to a dog? The answer is that there isn't a philosophy which underlies this "pick and choose, pet the cat, slaughter the cow" mentality (it has been said that in the popularity contest for animals, the losers get eaten). This mentality is sheer hypocrisy of the greatest degree (after all, we're not just talking about "you have your opinion and I'll have mine" -- there are lives that hang in the balance). As Natalie Merchant has said, "If you can't think of kicking a dog, you shouldn't think of eating a cow."

There are essentially three justifications people use when they exploit other animals: religious tradition, cultural tradition and economic benefit. None of these justifications comprises a philosophical system. Meanwhile, the practise of veganism is predicated on a proud tradition of "ahimsa" - dynamic harmlessness and minimization of violence to others. We may never be perfect, but it's well worth the effort to try. People who have made the decision to eliminate meat from their diets have acknowledged this fact, but people who continue to eat meat while throwing stones at leather-wearing vegetarians haven't gotten beyond society's basic prejudices regarding animals.

And for the people who think that animals don't feel, have you heard of the central nervous system? Do you think that animals have complex systems of neurons and synapses in their bodies just for the heck of it? Have you read anything that was published after Decartes', "How to vivisect a mechanical clock -- I mean, dog [well, same thing] -- in three easy steps"?

And for everyone who's citing the food chain and Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest," please familiarize yourself with the work of Cornell's T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D. (China Study - dubbed the "Grand Prix of epidemiological studies" by the NYT - Campbell and his associates from Oxford and Beijing found that villages in China that ate the least animal products were also the villages with the least heart disease, stroke, cancer, diabetes, obesity, etc.); UCSF's Dr. Dean Ornish (reversing heart disease - Ornish uses a vegetarian diet, instead of surgery, to melt the atherosclerotic plague from the walls of heart patients); George Washington University's Dr. Neal Barnard ("The Power of your Plate" - studies on the connections between obesity, diabetes and heart disease and animal product consumption). Survival of the fittest, indeed.

Happy reading,
Alka