I'd like to hear more collaborations from Jesse.

I enjoyed his co-writes on 'Ringleader' and the song that I enjoy the most from him is the 'If You Don't Like Me, Don't Look At Me' b-side. It's quite good!

With that said, I still want to see Alain return. Having both Alain and Jesse co-writing again can't hurt, can it?

But I would love to see a more of Boz, Alain, and also Mikey Farell songs.

Mikey I would love to hear something from him he is multi-talanted. He played the acoustic guitar The More you Ignore Me the Closer I get, really well, back in 2004

is it really an either Jesse or Alain?

curse those rockabilly greasers!

Alain has contributed so much to Morrissey. How could he leave him behind? Jesse Tobias has no great talent.

I remember there was a time when I really wanted MOZ to go out and collaborate with ohter artists. I felt that Alain and Co. were holding him down. Now that we have seen the end result, I take back what I said: Please Keep it to BOZ and ALAIN. They Know and UNDERSTAND Moz. They know what seems to work for him.

    If we can't have Johnny, Mike and Andy then the next best thing without a doubt is.......Boz, Alain, Gary and SPENCER! Bring back the best you've had my man.

Morrossey has worked with so many great songwriters- Marr, Street, Whyte, Boz, any many more. It's hard to see where Jesse fits in after just one CD. He was ok on ROTT but could do better. Again, I think Moz should skip any kind of U.S. tour (because the new CD was average and didn't sell well) and they should all go back into the studio to make another, better CD!
thetexasbloke

Just listen to this album's music. Not as good as other Moz solo work. And let's not get into a Marr comparison.
Jessie must taste good for Moz to keep a mediocre talent around.

I don't mind Jesse, but when I look at all the songs on this album (plus b-sides) I notice that Alain has generally written my favourites.

I never really had a problem with Boz and Alain etc, I thought they were doing great...if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

The last option is stupid indeed! First of all, Alain isn't gone when it comes to writing songs really so it's not a case of 'having him back' instead of Jesse. Second, Jesse is better live. I'm sure Jesse could produce decent numbers in the future. Alain's high points seem to be higher, but when it comes to MOR-stuff they're pretty even.

You Have Killed Me
The Youngest Was The Most Loved
In The Future When All's Well
I Just Want To See The Boy Happy
If You Don't Like Me, Don't Look At Me
I Knew I Was Next
On The Streets I Ran

Jesse Tobias is a stronger guitarist technically, as shown from the live performances. But Alain Whyte has a better sense of melody and his songwriting is stronger. This is not an uncommon difference between guitarists. And Alain Whyte's playing has improved radically in recent years, as has Moz's singing. So you'd rather have good songs than a 5% better performance of dull MOR shite, really.

If Moz only plans to make guitar based albums, I don't really care if Jesse writes some more or not. I think the biggest problem with ROTT was trying to fit three guitarists & the fantastic Mr Farrell on every song. So I think someone has to go & out of them all I'd rather it were Jesse. It was nice to hear someone new though.
But what I'd really love is if he made an orchestral 'crooner-esque' album. With grand string arrangements, Gospel choirs & such.
Elvis Costello did it with 'North' & others. Actually, Moz could learn a little from him. He seems less concerned with sales & more concerned with making music he can be proud of.
Ooooh, a Gospel choir on Dear God Please Help Me. How cool would that be?

path...pathe...pathek..pathtk...pathetic poll eva!!!!

niggas, please.

I will give Jessie some credit, as he has written a few jems on ROTT, but there is no way he could replace what Alain brings to Moz songs. That voice, the songs he wrote, that smile. He's done nothing but great things. Boz has obviously been just as important to the sound of the songs as well. Spencer and Gary as well. Spencer hands down wrote the best Moz song of all time "Lost" and then he was gone. I just hope Gary,Alain and Boz don't vanish completely from the picture and follow Spencer's fate.

Call me a conspiricy theorist, but for some reason certain songs on the album don't sound full Visconti to me. They have a Boz feel to them like I have heard on other Moz recordings in the past. It makes me wonder if on the album Boz had anything to do with the recording process aside from his playing????
Thoughts? or am I reaching?

I think that Jessie's contributions to ROTT and the b-sides released thusfar, have been very good and that ROTT was largely a return to form for Morrissey. I would like to see more between the two, but I'd like Alain back in the fold too, I mean Vauxhall and Arensal are phenominal classics....but then their was Malajusted and some of the lesser momments on Southpaw, so perhaps the collabo had gotten somewhat stale...
How about Alain, Jessie and MOZ? or maybe someone else altogether....
Ultimately it comes down to what clicks and who gets the passion flowing at any given time....so who are/is we/me to decide? I wonder if Morrissey and Marr could ever give it a go (fresh, not nostalga would be the only way though)...
Just keep new stuff coming and jems are bound to fall regardless of who the "great one" collabs with....
How about Cody Chesnutt (get some soul and funk up in there)? Or Sly & Robie (roots reggae, worked for the Clash) or Mick from the Clash? or long shot try a song or two with the Weezer guy (some say he's a genious at creating tunes) Just please none of those mall punk posers like AFI or that group with the Hillary Duff boyfriend (YATQ would have been better without production from that Blink-182 producer)...Viva Visconti

jessie wasn't all that great to be honest but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt seeing how this was his first moz collaboration. i think alain and moz make a greater tandom.

The main thing that stands out about Jesse's co-writes are it's catchiness. I also can hear lots of past song references in his tunes, most notably "First Of The Gang To Die". Doesn't the
start of "If You Don't Like Me, Don't Look At Me" sound like it?

Call it quits! Your time is over, Morrissey (in case you're reading this)

I have been a visitor to this site since 1997 and, unequivocally, the only thing that caused greater rifts than the Smiths vs. Morrissey solo question was the relative worth of Alain/Boz/etc vs. Johnny Marr. And now it splinters off yet again to Alain/Boz/etc vs. Jesse Tobias. Funny how the time passes!

Funnier (in a sad way, I guess) is how Jesse's numbers on ROTT scream of retread. In The Future When All Is Well is warmed over Smiths, I Just Want to See The Boy Happy is warmed over Who, and, strangest of all, You Have Killed Me is warmed over Alain/Boz! Then, you have the melody-less mess that is The Youngest Was the Most Loved (surely one of the most overrated Morrissey songs of recent times). And this is a guy that Morrissey credits as being a new muse to him. Troubling. The mediocrity we could be in for boggles the mind.

Meanwhile, Alain responded to the challenge of another segment of this site's population who begged for more "out of the box" songwriting. With the exception of I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now, each of Alain's co-writes (including the strongest B-sides, Ganglord and Good Looking Man About Town) sounds vastly different. You can hear his trademark elements here and there, but each song has a different template, diverse sonic feel, and a freshness that was often lacking on You Are the Quarry. And, if the rumors are true, he wasn't even asked to tour despite his clear desire to do so, which is an astonishing slap in the face given his years of service, his "all for one" work ethic, and enthusiasm that you hear him bring to the new sessions.

Worse still, Boz turned in some of his strongest co-writes during Quarry (Come Back To Camden, Mexico, and The Public Image) but he is strictly persona non grata on these new sessions, not even a B-side. Could anything that he wrote have been any more off the mark than At Last I Am Born? (Yes, a Farrell co-write, I know, but still...)

Reaction to music is a gut feeling, I understand, so the readers' individual tastes will dictate their responses. Also, Morrissey's personality and presence has unaccountably allowed him to coast on weaker numbers since 1988. But an entire album of Jesse's material, especially given the jumpstart Alain's muse has obviously gotten of late, is not an end result to be desired.

Cheers,

Jamie

Both Morrissey and Alain have made that perfectly clear in 2006 interviews. He has left the touring line up for the time being, though.

The Tobias songs are pretty good; better than latter day Boz songs and all the singles on ROTT will have been Morrissey/Tobias. The thing that let's down the current single is really the lyric...

J

Whilst I love the work Alain has done with Morrissey over the years, I have always been a massive fan of Boz and would love to hear more from him.

I'd dearly love a few more rockabilly gems (either written with or without Boz...preferrably with) before Moz calls it a day after the next album (probably).

(I know Boz didn't write "Sing your Life" but the rockabilly version the lads done after Kill Uncle was superb and one of my favourite Morrissey recordings)

Anybody else think Lucky Lisp is awesome and should be played live?

TT

I think Moz has a bigger problem with producers than with his co-writers. I think the production on Quarry was mediocre and on ROTT a bit better. What makes Vauxhall such a great album, apart from lyrics and music of course, is the production of Lillywhite. I think Whyte and Boorer made quite straight forward songs for the album, but that throught the production and the choices they became much bigger. I think after Vauxhall Lillywhite and Moz lost it a bit. I think he needs great producers, somebody like Brian Eno or Bowie in the seventies, or the guy who did Berlin with Lou Reed.

I think the main problem is that Morrissey seems to be more concerned with his lyrics rather than the song behind them. Until he starts taking more interest in the music we won't have anymore gems

I'd like to see Morrissey work with Vini Reilly of the Durutti Column.

I really think that this collaboration would truly be a return to form for Morrissey. For years, many people have been suggesting that Morrissey part ways with The Lads and search for a completely different sound. Morrissey would be able to adventure into a different sound, along with a different approach, with Reilly.

Aside from the experimentation that Reilly brings to the table, which Morrissey desperately needs at this stage in his career, he knows how to make a pop song. The exciting thing with Reilly is, unlike Morrissey's current collaborators, you never know what kind of sound you're going to get. Reilly's music alters hugely from album to album without losing that taste of brilliance.

Speaking of the sound, Reilly would bring a unique yet beautiful guitar sound that Morrissey hasn't had since the Smiths. While Johnny's guitar sounded like coming from the gates of heaven, Reilly offers a mysterious, haunting yet hopeful sound drenched in an ocean of reverb and delay. Strange and rare musical chords that are used in progressions that you never dreamt possible.

A new collaborator is deeply needed. While The Lads have provided excellent songs for us to enjoy, their brilliance is quickly fading. Fading is something that Johnny Marr has done since the demise of the Smiths. Morrissey does not need to reunite with someone who lacks inspiration in order to write new material or reflect on the 'good 'ole days'.

Morrissey and Vini Reilly, part two. This time, free from Stephen Street along with his
controversy. Manchester and Manchester, again. The way it should be.

Jesse Tobias is clearly a great asset to ROTT. The majority of the album and b-sides were co-written by Tobias. Obviously, Morrissey would not haven chosen Tobias to collarborate otherwise. He is a brilliantly talented and completely passionate musician. Witness him live and see it is undeniable. As for choosing Tobias/Alain, that's lame - why can't we continue to reap the benefits of two outstanding talents? Actually, all the boys were magnificent collaborators but you can't please everyone because not everyone has good taste!

As much as I really liked ROTT, I desperately wish that Morrissey would move on completely from the musical path he has trodden these last 14 or so years.
Given the beauty of his voice, accompanied by the wonder of his lyrics, it's a shame he has to hang them upon such a shabby and uninspiring backdrop.
Sure, there have been moments of musical brilliance; 'Life Is A Pigsty', 'Now My Heart Is Full', 'Lifeguard...' to name a few, but not enough to sustain such a forceful and extraordinary artist like Himself.
Too many songs just seem to be cloaked in the same old major chord progression that I feel has held Morrissey back from being a far more important figure in contemporary music culture. He was a major player in his days in The Smiths, less so in his solo career. Why? Because the music doesn't catch the ear of the casual listener in the way that The Smiths did. This is why there is the massive slump for TYWTML this week in the charts. Bewitching kiddies choir or not, the music just doesn't seem to hook the non-converted.

Now, I'm not suggesting Morrissey follow some drum'n'bass or industrial grindcore path, but surely such a major talent should be pushing the boundaries a little more, and REALLY flexing his creative muscles, instead of just pissing about in the shallow-end like he appears to have been doing through much of his solo career. We all know the peaks of greatness he can acheive, so must he.
Is it laziness? Or just convenience?

Firstly, I agree with a poster above who claimed thar Morrissey seems unconcerned about the music. This, to me, is his greatest failing at the moment - his belief that greatness will ensue from the mere force of his personality and vocal, regardless of the musical backdrop. I think it's true that a considerable part of Morrissey's appeal DOES derive from the force of his personality, BUT I think his tendency to overlook the music is grave and deadly, especially if he wants to a) catch the ear of the casual listener or b) secure a lasting musical legacy. I have often speculated as to whether Morrissey sees all this as his message to Marr, Joyce and Rourke - e.g. "see, I don't NEED a band, I am successful because I am me" kind of thing.

Secondly, Alain and Box are out of inspiration. Saying "but look at Pigsty and Camden" is simply not enough. One great song per album is not enough. Alain had seven songs on ROTT, yet 'Father' is abysmal. Conclusion? Alain just can't sustain musical brilliance across even half an album. Meanwhile, 'Noise Is...' is enough evidence of Boz's lack of inspiration for anyone.

So, we all clamoured for new collaborators - quite rightly. Yet Morrissey opted to bring in a facsimile of Alain - I mean, Jesse's songs COULD be passed off as Whyte co-writes quite easily. 'YHKM' could easily replace 'Best Friend On The Payroll' on 'Southpaw' for instance. So, the change was made, but to no purpose. It's almost as though Moz thought "well, we need someone new - well, we know Jesse, he'll do". Moz needs to take far more chances if he is to fulfil his potential.

Is J Marr the answer? Probably not, going by his recent work, but one can't escape the nagging feeling that Marr COULD pull it off again if circumstances were right. It's not our of the question, as the latter day works of other artist (after long fallow periods) have shown.

But really MOrrissey needs NEW - totally new - collborators. He needs someone with a genuine musical gift rather than a proficiency. If he cares about securing a consistently great musical output then this is necessary.

Marr.

And if you don't know this, then what do you know?

Bring back Johnny.

should Tony Visconti produce Morrissey again..

I still say Boz is pissed off after seeing both 'Kit' & 'Mexico' thrown down the toilet.
I've been thinking, does Moz really need two guitarists on every album? Sure, he'll need two for live work.
What about having Boz or Alain (my preference would be Boz), write a whole album & play all the guitar parts on their own? It seems to me one of the advantages of having Mikey Farrell on board is that he can flesh out songs without the need for lots of guitar.

I'd like to see a return to good quality releases - don't care who writes 'em. Please stop trying to appeal to the Keane and Franz Ferdinand crowd. Leave the kids to their own and get some decent grown-up music out.

Alain and Jesse both had 3 each in the top 6 (Piggy, You have Killed, Work of Art, Futire, Youngest) so we seem to rate their songs pretty similarly, so let's keep them both in.
Boz seems to have lost the plot recently. His Quarry songs were the worst (Not sorry, I like you etc) although he's written some amazing songs in the past...
J

Oh how I long for the days when Morrissey sang about anything and everything;
Dublin, Dundee, Humberside, plans for wars on Channel 4, playboys, bucked toothed girls in Luxembourg, seaside towns which should have been closed down, Keats and Yates, some girls being relatively bigger (than others), dancing in his bedroom in those ugly houses, shy bald buddhists, plundering desires for love, double decker buses and ten ton trucks, sponges and rusty spanners, ability to play the pianna, sad veiled brides and handsome grooms; the list goes on and on.
He used to turn his hand to so many subjects with such amazing wit, pathos and dexterity.

What do we get now:
fathers who need to be killed, the youngest who became a killer, someone who has killed him (as he lives and breaths), criminals, gang memberszzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Can't you lot see; it's Morrissey's lyrics which are the main problem these days?
J

I'd never realised it before, but his voice lends itself well to practically anything. Much as I'm not overly enamoured of ROTT, songs like "IWSYIFOP" prove that he could rather easily do something like UNKLE did on "Psyence Fiction"- an album of collaborations with artists he likes- something that really pushes the envelope.

It's time to dump the rockabilly backing group and move on, I think. He's said everything he could in that direction, musically. Another album like ROTT would just be a waste of time. (It sounded great live of course, but enough already!)

BUT, this is Morrissey.. he hasn't done anything groundbreakingly interesting since "Vauxhall" in all fairness, so it's unlikely he'll change his tune now.

I predict we'll get one more album, probably better then ROTT but not as good as Quarry, and then he'll stop altogether and it'll only be his autobiography and occasional appearances until he shuffles off this mortal coil after that.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the way he'll go.

Mark E Nevin has a lot to do with MOZ sound. why not bring him back in the mix. Of course vini reilly as well.

You Have Killed Me, The Youngest and whichever is chosen from Boy Happy and All's Well.
Although Alain's songs were nice; he didn't come up with any singles this time so I think it's great that Moz has got a new writer on board to help out...
Maurice E

If he is still there when the next album comes out and he has has co wrote it , i will not be buying it , that is how strong I feel about this.I have never refused before about buying M records , but , The songs Tobias has written are shocking , they are terrible.

M should pick up the phone and speak to the boys from Gene , especially Steve Mason , who is the closest thing to Johnny Marr I have ever seen. The ex Gene drummer and Bass guitarist are quality , trust me , ive seen them live that many time's and they are available...... Gene , sadly are no more

I don't know if there is someone here who shares the same opinion, but I never saw this division between pre-vauxhaul and post-vauxhall Morrissey, or between pre-Smiths and post-Smiths Morissey - or Alain Whyte versus Tobias. In my humble and entirely subjective opinion, there are songs I care more and care less for, from no matter what period or written by no matter who. I did not care that much for the melody of "Noise Is The Greatest Revenge" (great title, great lyrics, though) - and it was composed by Boz Boorer, who made another song I really love, "Jack The Ripper". I love "Life Is A Pigsty", but I love "Ganglord" also, who has that same shadowy mood to it, and it was composed by our poor underappreciated Tobias - as well as "I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero", which is such a tender song, and never gets mentioned (I guess I am the only fool that likes it). I addition, as great as The Smiths were, and I don't give a hoot about reputation, just my taste, I don't care about "Sheila Take A Bow"'s melody a whole lot, which I fell less appealing to "I'll Never Be...", for example. But I love "How Soon Is Now", "Meat Is Murder", "William It Was Really Nothing", etc. I wonder if some of the people even bother to listen to "Songs From The Underfloor" (sorry if I got this title wrong), which I find mesmerizing, such a vivacious and open-hearted way of expressing outideness, and without sounding morbid! To mee, I find it does a better job in this respect than "Unlovable"! I'm not going to ask you to give the "fallen king" a break, because I know you won't anyways, but maybe you should try
1) Cleaning your ears with less cotton (it tends to build up in the ears
2) Getting a better stereo system (Cambridge Sound Works and Bose are awesome brands)
3) Not drinking so much booze right before a Moz show or when you're listening to ROTT. It might seriously impair your musical jugdement
4)And above all, try not to sing along with it! (unless you have a very unusual ability to complement and not destroy the singing!
5)Or just listen without prejudice, or based on what so and so said, that's all.

I think Morrissey should do exactly as he likes, and target whoever he wishes for collaboration, for there are queues urging, ‘ask me, ask me, ask me!’ Basically, it’s the Lady’s Choice!!

There is no thud after ROTT; it appeared on the front of the Daily Mail, and, like all the other albums he can stand on it proudly, and be sure that it will be heard as a gift by fans and new listeners for long into the future. He should not be shocked into shame to discover that, like some of its descendants, when it lands on hatfuls of hollow, there’s no immediate appreciation. Has the world changed? Bah! Though it can be so lonely on a limb, Morrissey is the master; just check all the registered historical facts.

He should just go for a walk where it’s quiet and dry, past the pub and the church, to a place in the sun to save his skyward hair from the rain, to let his soul expand under the palms and be himself. He has nothing to prove; his legacy is set in stone, like a Piazza Morrissey between arches. The queen, never sure whether his precious things – “the things that kill me” - would leave him dead or alive, meant it when he said; “you can trust me, boys”.

Of course there will be those who misunderstand, and even accuse him: “Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing”, but why do they look at him so? ‘Cos he’s the ringleader of the tormentors, and its quarry, in one; a unicorn, never a boar. Maybe we should hear him play piano –life, the one true free life, is very long, yet - but whatever or whoever he fancies lassoing, head in a sling, into his set, we should hear him.

Mo-rriss-ey, Mo-rriss-ey, Mo-rriss-ey…ole’!

Jesse Tobias isnt that bad a song writer but he cant play live!

Come back Alain, but lets have 3 guitarists! Or Alain could play the drums!

options and rubbish grammar.
'I'd rather have Alain back than keeping Jesse'? What?!!!
Listen; this is what happened...
Alain left the Quarry tour and Jesse came in to replace him (after Barrie).
Then, last year, Alain came BACK to write and record songs with Moz and Jesse etc for Ringleader but has not been on tour.

Moz has made it perfectly clear that Alain is still on board, at least as a songwriter.
This poll implies that Alain was booted out and replaced by Jesse which is absolute boll***s and should not have been published without severe editing.

I think the band are superb as they are now. They are so dynamic and interesting. They beat all the indie bands around at the moment by a long way. Great band, great singer. Carry on as you are Moz. Yamaha

I loved when Morrissey rocked it up with rockabilly flare for the 91-92 tours. The classic lineup of Moz, Alain, Boz, Gary, and Spencer cannot be beat. Keep Mikey so they can play "International Playboys" "Such a Little Thing" "King Lear" "Lucky Lisp" "Ouija Board" etc properly. No more suits! I want jeans, greased hair, t-shirts, and those shiny shirts for Moz.

Any guitarists out there , I have a question...

If these guitarists are the quality M likes to make out , why cant they reproduce the sound of The Smiths?

Im just listening to suffer little children, the sound Johnny gets from the guitar is so far different from anything we have had since , with the exception of Vini who in my opinion came close...

1.is it because they havent the talent to reporduce the sound.
2. they dont use the same guitar or setup as Johnny.
3.it is direct instruction from M not to reproduce the sound and emphasise the guitar on tracks.

i dont now , im mystified.

don't forget that none of them can sing like Alain!

Looking at the ASCAP site today, I realise he wrote many of the Morrissey solo songs I love most. Not all-many.

Alain must keep his place in the band of The Moz-Father. He and Boorer are an excellent co-writin' team which must keep (I repeat) their delightful place with Moz. They write songs like "LIFE IS A PIGSTY" or "THE FATHER WHO MUST BE KILLED", both the greatest of the Ringleader Of The Tormentors album.

C'mon!

And Jesse is great, yeah... but don't compare with old moz-friends like Alain and Boorer.

I would like to see Theo Walcott come on. Why did Sven take him if he's not going to play him?

The current incarnation of the band is clearly out of inspiration. Boz, Alain, Jesse, whatever permutation, scrap them all and start over with a new vision and a new sound. I miss the old Morrissey who was too unstable to maintain healthy long-lasting relationships. Morrissey needs to be challenged once again, in the current formation he is coasting.

in my opinion jesse tobias is a very powerful guitar player. he adds a kind of sharpness to the sound that makes it very strong and lively. For me his songs fit very good to the lyrics and i personalyl hope, that they will keep on working

they are never going to be The Smiths..... here endeth the story...........

Definatley go for bernard butler....it was a rumour not long back and the apparent source of M and Al falling out when it was strongly suggested they would write together.

bass and drums....dont know really.

Their is really nothing Alain or Jesse can do to save MOZ.. He's finished! Go hug your vinyl and watch the Wolverhampton gig from '88 or some classic Smiths vids from '85.

"I know it's over."

that would be shit. the tears return is rubbish and butler has become a parody of himself in a guitar sense and a parody of others in his production techniques.

morrissey needs a strong songwriter to encourage better lyrics. to inspire better lyrics. ROTT doesn't inspire at all, i'd have trouble being creative lyrically over something that lacks creativity. ROTT lacks in new energy (chi!) and that's why it's so tedious for some of us. cos some of us need energy in our music, and bland backdrops wont do. boorer and alain have become parodies of themselves in the way they record their guitar parts. i'm sure that's down to the producer too, but it's them who play the same old guitar patterns, not visconti.