*Hand In Glove played followed by Everyday Is Like Sunday

Dave Fanning: Okay Morrissey, tenth solo album, just tell us first of all, is it together, is it gonna be out soon, is it definitely gonna get a release, all that kind of thing?
Morrissey: Well, em, many questions…is it together..it’s not recorded, I don’t have a deal, so, God knows. I’ve waited a long time for the right deal and eh…

DF: Right, so it is just around the corner.
M: Well, it’s a big corner, but yes.

DF: And will it have songs that we’ve seen on stage like The First of the Gang To Die etc..
M: Yes, yes, it will do. It will do if I can record it quite soon, but…

DF: Because then it might change.
M: Exactly.

DF: You’re currently on tour, you’re playing Europe, you’ve played America, you’re going to Greece, you’re going to Australia…do you like it all, or is it something you feel you have to do?
M: Well, no, I’ve never felt that I have to do anything, but it’s very enjoyable and also, when you’re about to go somewhere and they sell out very quickly, it puts a spring in your step and you really want to be there. I mean, if ahead of you was a series of empty halls then you’d lack enthusiasm, perhaps. But people are always so welcoming, so off I go.

DF: Right. And what about the writing of the songs, say, for an album like this, is it the same you’ve done for previous albums, the same kind of way?
M: Yes, same process, nothing very technical, nothing very complicated, just the strength of the written word and saying something very concisely and effectively and…

DF: Profound or whatever…
M: Well, profound, if I’m lucky, if I’m lucky..

DF: Okay, but it is pen and paper as opposed to computer these days, isn’t it?
M: It’s completely pen and paper, yes, yes…

DF: Right. Just a few people that you’ve worked with on these solo albums over the last bunch of years, I mean, you’ve worked with Mick Ronson, you’ve worked with Steve Lilywhite, musician, producer, etc…
M: Yes, yes…

DF: Do you get much from them or is it just nice to get on with them, is that enough?
M: Em, no..producers really do something, they actually do work and when you have a good producer who pulls things together and pulls people together it’s fascinating- fascinating to watch because you can record a song and think it’s incredible and you can think- well, we don’t really need a producer, the song is so wonderful and then somebody walks in and they do some very basic manoeuvres and you just see the song move a hundred octaves! And eh..so it’s fascinating when you see a producer at work.

DF: Is it somewhat like a second opinion, though, in some ways? Because you can’t just always trust yourself?
M: No, it’s more than just a second opinion because everybody can give a second opinion, but they don’t know their way around the desk and they can’t forsee how an instrument will sound if you do a certain thing to it, so, no, it’s more than just somebody sitting there saying “Well, I think..” ‘cos they do actually jump in and start to eh..manipulate, slightly. And they also push and that’s quite nice.

DF: Okay, well what’s ‘quite nice’ with you, is you sound as though you’re in a position where you’re mellow to the point where you enjoy what you’re doing…maybe aggressive on stage or just like…y’know, everything is working out fine and you never want to play this fame game thing, which is being played more today than ever before..
M: Yes..

DF: Do you ever have any sympathy with those who play the fame game?
M: Not really, I think people who play the fame game, which is practically everybody, most of them actually do so because they end up going further than they really ever should have. I mean, most people in pop music have no talent, it’s all simply look and nothing else- and maybe they never thought they’d ever be visible in any way, so to play the game they go further and if they’re lucky they’ll get some money. So, maybe the fame game is useful for people who are bereft of any imagination.

DF: Well, you sing with the voice that you talk with, I mean a lot of people don’t, they put on this West Coast thingamibob..
M: (sighs) Yes…

DF: Now, this whole pop fame game thing, just to stay on that, does it, with you, induce a form of agoraphobia, like, the more you see, the more you just want to go back in and shut the door?
M: Well, I think I’ve seen so much now and I don’t think anything would surprise me anymore..I don’t think so, not really. But I’m terribly cynical about the music industry and it’s easy to be so, but…I still love music. And I still love to sing. And I still love to present it and to try to be visible in a respectable way, so..

DF: So when you talk about loving music and loving to sing, in your teens you were absolutely obsessed with music and pop music..
M: Yes, yes…

DF: And with the stuff that was in the NME and all that kind of stuff, writing to the NME etc…but when you talk about the vocal melodies and stuff of music…are the vocal melodies the one thing that are still the most important thing to you?
M: To me, yes. And if there are groups or artists and they have bad singers or they have no vocal melodies, I can’t listen to them. And it doesn’t matter how they’re rated or how much people applaud them, if there’s a bad singer- and in most cases there is a bad singer, ‘cos very few people have interesting voices to me..so I end up just being a terrible critic about that.

DF: So, lyrical content would be second in line?
M: Well, it hardly ever comes into it because nobody has any decent lyrical content, really..I mean, there aren’t really any decent pop lyricists around, are there?

DF: There’s a few!
M: How many can you name?

DF: Well I can start with Nick Cave, I think he’s great, although he’s not a pop lyricist as such..are you talking about like, pure pop, as in, chart pop? Because there’s certainly nothing there!
M: Well, when was the last time you heard a few lines that really made you leap and caught you by surprise?

DF: But a pop lyricist…
M: See, you’re not answering!

DF: Ok, ok, ok, I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you! (Morrissey laughs) We’ll stay with Nick Cave then, there’s a song called ‘Are You The One That I’ve Been Waiting For?’- some of the lines in that are just fantastic..
M: Right…

DF: There’s the “Stars have their moment when they die” line, well it ends with that, there’s about five beforehand and the whole nine lines, or the seven lines, are great! Yeah but okay, that was five years ago! (Laughs)
M: (Laughing) Exactly, exactly… And…maybe it didn’t catch you by surprise ‘cos you were listening anyway..and you liked him so much that you were ready to like it.

DF: I expected it. No question about it, yeah…

*Bigmouth Strikes Again is played, followed by William, It Was Really Nothing

DF: Do you think it’s better that artists remain aloof and give off the vibe of being superior? I’ve often thought that you’ve looked up to people like that, right down through your career.
M: Well, I don’t know how many people can really do that, because if you play the fame game then you just have to dive in and you have to be orchestrated somehow and if you don’t- if you’re uncontrollable- then people say you’re a problem. And if people can’t get one over on you, they say you’re a problem and you’re awkward. But it just means that they don’t really get away with anything where you’re concerned, so then they say you’re really difficult. But as far as I can see, most people do tow the line. I can’t really see anybody in pop music who’s rebellious. And certainly, when groups and artists have a certain footing and a large audience, they’re somewhat trapped. (Pause) God knows why…

DF: But when you were that teen person I was talking about, compared to now and nobody ever believes that life goes as fast as it does - it goes so slow, I suppose, in your teen years, compared to your 20’s, 30’s or 40’s - are you ok with that?
M: I feel fine, I mean..the older I get, the happier I feel and the prospect of a shock of grey hair, I think, is really quite nice..

DF: And musically…do you feel as a vocalist you’re growing, or is that irrelevant?
M: I feel, yeah- growing, I feel better- older, better and no, I don’t feel any kind of nervousness about the ‘dreaded’ looming years.

DF: Right. Do you think that the music press have treated you a lot differently than when you were with The Smiths between ’85 and ’90 in all of the 1990’s with those nine solo albums?
M: Well, yeah..they did, I mean they were terribly impatient in the ‘90’s and really unfriendly, as you might possibly have noticed, I don’t know. But yes, they tend to be very critical anyway, but I don’t mind, I’m used to it, it’s been 20 years really and I’m just used to all that now.. And people write things and they don’t really mean it and you meet them and they’re terribly nice and you say, well..it’s just all a strange system.

DF: And what about the stuff that you would have in your live current set? I mean, there was a time in the ‘90’s - I might be wrong about this, I’m not 100% sure- that you wouldn’t have included Smiths songs?
M: Well, I didn’t want to initially, because I think I did feel that if I had, I would have been criticised if The Smiths had ended and then I would’ve launched into a solo Smiths tour, so I purposely avoided all those songs and now I feel that they’re more mine than anybody else’s- they don’t belong to other people, so…I’m gonna sing them.

DF: There was a time when it was said that if you met a complete stranger and they wanted to see the best of what Morrissey is, or what Morrissey was, you might look to Vauxhall & I, or Your Arsenal or whatever…could you now open the door to say “Well, look at the Smiths songs as well” and was there a time you had that door shut?
M: No (Laughing) A nicely crafted question, but no. The door was always ajar, really. But when I became solo, I wanted to establish something, and for better or worse, I did. I wanted to take a solo leap and not just hide and pretend I was in the same situation. But you know, you can’t really win- I mean if you do this, people say “Well, why didn’t you do this?” and if you do this, they say “But yes, you should have done this!” so you think “To hell with it, really. Take me or leave me”.

*There Is A Light That Never Goes Out is played, followed by Suedehead

DF: A lot of your songs would be like…a conversation with yourself that you may never have had in the past.
M: Yes.

DF: I mean, obviously everybody talks about Morrissey in terms of ‘the way you were as a kid’ or ‘the way you grew up’ or the fact that you felt alone and you wanted to go..For instance, you used to go to Bowie and Roxy Music concerts, and you didn’t go in a crowd like most people do, you went by yourself..
M: Yes, that’s right, yes…

DF: Did you genuinely go to these things at the age of 12 and 13? That’s pretty young to be going to things like that by yourself!
M: Yes, unbelievably, em…when I was 12 I went to see the New York Dolls in Manchester and Roxy Music and…the New York Dolls didn’t turn up because the drummer died the day before, but I was there from 8am, pressed against the door and then pressed against the stage and then they made the announcement that the drummer had died, and all the audience began to weep and…so yeah, to be going to see people like that, and Lou Reed at the age of 12..and he wouldn’t come on ‘til midnight, and he was singing about heroin and transexuality and…I thought it was fascinating. And much better than the world that everybody else knew in Manchester. I thought this is really interesting, these people are interesting. It’s eh..so…I was ready. I was ready for all that. I was ready for anything that was sort of..pushing people to question gender politics, or anything like that. Only because it was interesting.

DF: And therefore, you were ready to become…did you want to become a star, by the way?
M: Eh..I never believed I could be, because I was always terribly shy and I always felt that when you would see people on stage, and on television and so forth, that they must have had some incredible…er…what’s the word…umm…they must have been very outgoing and very brave and so forth, and I wasn’t that person. So when I found that I was beginning to do it I realised that it was easier than I thought.

DF: And also, anything was an antidote to school, wasn’t it? Because school was a bit of a hellhole, wasn’t it?
M: Yeah, it was shocking, really shocking. I mean, I can’t really…I didn’t survive school, to be honest. It still gives me nightmares, I can’t believe it was so bad, and so forth and….very shocking. But, you know, a common story, I think.

DF: I was just gonna say, does it make you feel anyway better at all to know that there’s millions out there that feel the exact same way?
M: No, no, because there’s millions who view education and…’it was a breeze’ and ‘it was useful’ and they got something from it and..those people I really envy, when they look back on their school days and college days and especially in America, when it was so fruitful and giving, education was so fruitful…I can’t imagine that. When I think of education and school I just think of violence and nothing else. And that’s the teachers, not the pupils.

DF: Or the system, even.
M: Yeah, the system, really.

DF: And what about the sadism of Catholicism, or is sadism a bit of a big word?
M: Eh…it’s well…it’s not that big, no…(chuckles) it’s quite sadistic, yes. But we can all survive that, really. We can all rationalise that.

DF: But like, when you were a kid and you go to bed, I mean the Moors Murders happened and you had a song about that - did that affect you in a strange way? Did it give you nightmares, did it keep you awake?
M: Well, em, yes, because at that time, the world was a very different place, in the ‘60’s, and it was incredibly shocking crimes and they still are shocking crimes. I mean, if you read the details of those crimes, they’re still very, very shocking now. So being in Manchester and being close by, being small, and all the victims, well most of the victims were quite small, it was a very profound thing. I mean, it still is. You see a picture of Myra Hindley or Ian Brady in the newspapers today and it’s almost like a Victorian…it’s almost like a witch trial or something. It’s got some strange mythology about it. They’re larger than life figures, the crime is still unbelievable.

DF: It looks like we’re talking, having a conversation with the word compassion here…you once said “Compassion? I only have compassion for myself”
M: (Chuckles)

DF: (Laughs) I mean, should I not throw back old quotes, is that a mean one?!
M: Well, some of them are useful, but yeah, I’d still say that today, I think.

DF: I think one of the best ones is your description of Manchester- (laughing) “Docklands without the docks”. Was it that bad, yeah?
M: (Laughing) Well, I believe there is a new Manchester now, I think there’s lots of bright, sparkling shops everywhere and people are rejuvenated, but you know, somehow I can’t imagine several industrial revolutions changing the people of Manchester- they won’t change. So there can’t really be a new Manchester.

*The Headmaster Ritual is played

DF: When, around the age of 17 or whatever it was, in 1979, you went out to a gig and met Johnny Marr..was that a really pivotal..this was like “This moment..”
M: Well, no, it didn’t seem so at the time. I’d first met him at a Patti Smith concert and…then we didn’t meet each other for 4 years and eh….but no, it didn’t seem pivotal at the time. But when we began to form The Smiths, everything happened incredibly rapidly…so rapidly that I scarcely had time to think. And it was just a matter of “Well, either you’re ready to do this or you’re not. Either you’re prepared, or you’re not. And, eh..”

DF: It looks to me as though you two- or you, in particular, are one of the few who was able to cope pretty damn well- or it seemed to me as though you did- with literally, overnight success.
M: Well, it felt very overnight, it really did. But I think I was prepared- because even as a child, I could never stop singing and I was truly obsessed with pop music and I had thoughts of doing it throughout the period that we know as punk and it never happened. So..the door opened, and… there I was.

DF: And it was a good five years.
M: Yes, it was.

DF: You all had good fun.
M: Em…it was a very…interesting way to pass five years. Fascinating. And it was like a constantly revolving door.

DF: But a lot of laughter.
M: Umm.. a few giggles, yes..a few giggles…would I say laughter? Yes, little bits of laughter.

DF: And when Johnny left then, when he did leave, around ’87, that must have been a bit of a shock.
M: Yes, it was. It was a shock. And I think it was a really bad idea, as well. I don’t know how he lived with it, really.

DF: Well (Morrissey laughs) he wanted to do something else outside The Smiths, you didn’t!
M: Well, no, I didn’t, I never imagined I would be solo and I think he wanted to work with other people, but I imagine that need was temporary. And I think he probably did regret dissolving it.

DF: And if it was temporary in a very short space of time, you think he didn’t have the pride to say “Listen, sorry- that was really only a six month thing, let’s get back to The Smiths”.
M: Oh yeah, he would never say that. No, never. He’d never say that. So, I mean, he just sort of…it was a dreadful decision he made and he supports it simply now by saying that “The Smiths were a terrible experience and Morrissey was evil and he made us record the Cilla Black song” and you know, that’s how he justifies his terrible decision, but… it is history now.

DF: It is history, but you’re also grown men now!
M: Only…

DF: Things do get buried.
M: Only outwardly.

DF: (Laughs) Yeah, ok, alright. So, with the music you’re making in the 1990’s, with the solo career that did happen, because you hadn’t planned this, but it had to happen, because what you do is make music, this is what you want to do..and almost ten albums down the line now. I mean, is there a vindication of any sort along the way here? Of “Look, y’know, it’s worked out well for me, I’m a musician, I’m doing what I’m doing and nobody else is”?
M: Well, originally, Johnny and I had signed a contract with EMI which was never fulfilled, so when the group dissolved, EMI contacted me and said “Don’t think you’re a free agent, you have to honour the Smiths contract” which is the same thing that happened with the contract we had in America. So both the labels pounced on me and said they had made this financial investment and I, as a solo artist, must honour it. And, which I did, which is something that Johnny completely slipped away from. So I wasn’t really that free, ‘cos people were telling me “Well, you have to record now, because you’re under contract”. But luckily, it turned out well.

DF: Mmm. “I’ll make a couple of number one solo albums and fourteen hit singles and..”
M: Yes, yes, it makes life more pleasant…

DF: I’m sure it does…

*Panic is played

DF: It’s the obvious thing that people have this phrase, a lot of British journalists have of “Being Morrissey”, where you can get a wry little sentence out that sort of dismisses any question that might have to go into too much detail or whatever…is that a defensive mechanism, or does it exist at all?
M: Well, I think it’s…I think it defines a certain type of sort of…supposedly willowy, but ummm….feisty character, I think. So it simply defines a type. I think…maybe not.

DF: Well, it’s not for you to have to worry about, I suppose..
M: It’s not for me to worry about, because…I am Morrissey.

DF: Exactly. Your music has been judged a lot more than a lot of other people’s music down through the years because… it just meant so much to so many people.
M: Yes, yes.

DF: Are you okay with that?
M: Well…..it annoys me sometimes because so many people in music just seem to get away with so much and so many artists who I think are absolutely dreadful are very leniently dealt with and…I never am, of course. People seem to take a very severe line and so…I just see so many people slipping through the net with just dreadful songs and dreadful presentation and…they go on to be multi-platinum and applauded and so forth and…it does irk me sometimes. But there’s nobody else I’d rather be…I don’t think “Well, I wish I was that person”. I don’t think anybody has the perfect career…everybody has great gaping holes in what they do.

DF: You’re not alone. I mean, I remember Randy Newman saying something about Bob Dylan like “If I was younger looking, better looking, east coast, smoked a bit of dope and didn’t come from a middle class/upper class family in LA, my albums might be treated the same way as Dylan’s were” and frankly, I think he’s got a point.
M: Yeah, but there’s too many ‘if’s’ isn’t there?

DF: (Laughs)
M: You know, if there was one, it’d be okay.

DF: Alright, okay.

*November Spawned A Monster is played

End of Part One.