Smiths lecture at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill - report
posted by davidt on Friday April 06 2001, @08:00AM

Bruce B. writes:

Last night (Apr. 4) I attended a lecture at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill titled "Take Me Back To Dear Old Blighty: The Smiths and the Last Days of England" given by visiting Professor Colin Coutler of the University of Ireland, Maynooth. After seeing a flyer around town about the talk I was quite interested in an academic perspective on the Smiths. Professor Coutler was intelligent and insightful and his unmasked enthusiam for the band was endearing. He discussed mainly The Smiths as an historical document of a specific time: i.e. their mourning on a mythical England now lost, as a reaction to Thatcherism (he pointed out that their career spanned the exact time period of Thatcher's second term), etc. He played a few of the Derek Jarmen videos and two songs. He also went on at length about The Smiths rejection of 80's glamour and their own glamourization of poverty and ordinariness. He noted at the beginning of the talk: "If you get me trapped late in a bar I'll go on for hours without end about this band!" Morrissey's solo career was nearly off-handedly dismissed as "poor" except to note that Vauxhall and I was "one of the best albums of the decade.

 
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    Smiths lecture at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill - report | Log in/Create an Account | Top | 37 comments | Search Discussion
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    Chapel Hill (Score:0)
    Ah, Chapel Hill. Still the Southern Part of Heaven, eh? It would be interesting to know if the talk was based on anything published.
    Anonymous -- Friday April 06 2001, @08:23AM (#9888)
      Coutler (Score:0, Flamebait)
      Solo career "poor"? Isn't that just very very well, considered The Smiths were about glamourizing "poverty and ordinariness"?

      Coutler is a sociologist. I take it that his views on the music are as good as mine.
      Anonymous -- Friday April 06 2001, @08:23AM (#9889)
        lucky you! (Score:1)
        UC santa cruz has a shitty class on the grateful dead. what's the value in that? i haven't a clue.

        now, a punk and post-punk class... now that's an era to study!
        state of emergency -- Friday April 06 2001, @08:24AM (#9890)
        (User #837 Info)
        "others conquered love, but i ran..."
        • Hey, I went to Santa Cruz! by Anonymous (Score:1) Friday April 06 2001, @12:10PM
          • Re:Hey, I went to Santa Cruz! by state of emergency (Score:1) Friday April 06 2001, @01:36PM
          • I minored in flyer art (Score:3, Insightful)

            I took a rock music class at UT. We had a hippie graduate student as our teacher who said that if it was up to him, he would have had the class be nothing but focusing on "race music" i.e. early blues, slave songs, etc, and it showed not because he did it, but because after a certain point, he really started to lose the thread on his knowledge and based his lectures on the PBS series....which, as you know, is full of holes, focuses on what most people tend to already know like a trip down memory lane, and doesn't go more indepth than "wow, man, I listened to the Beatles all night long, and now me and my buddies are big rock stars with drug problems!"

            But this lecture on the Smiths...that is a problem when you are a huge fan of anything because your view is going to be distorted in favor of what you like about them. Morrissey and Marr were big style freaks to the point of shopping for designer duds when possible which fits in well with what everyone else was doing in the 80's. Marr owned a BMW. They couldn't wait to get rid of their label in favor of more money. Their coverstars might have been from movies about working class lives, but those stars were still inherently different because in real life they had fame. Moz spent his waking hours trying to meet them all and pay homage to them by tying in their movies with what he is trying to say with his lyrics. You don't see anyone who is not famous on his early album covers. He opts for pictorial representations of working class life. Not real ones.

            Even Johnny Marr spent his time trying to chase after the idea of being like his heroes. It's like both of them spent their lives trying to make themselves meet somebody else's standards. Keith Richards. Oscar Wilde. James Dean. Elvis. etc and tying in their lives in a way that makes themselves feel worthy against their heroes' standards.
            suzanne <{suzsch} {at} {sbcglobal.net}> -- Friday April 06 2001, @07:32PM (#9915)
            (User #36 Info | http://www.myspace.com/snootywriter )
            I scare dead people.
            [ Parent ]
        • Re:lucky you! by Anonymous (Score:0) Friday April 06 2001, @02:59PM
          • Re:lucky you! by state of emergency (Score:1) Friday April 06 2001, @08:56PM
          i told you so (Score:1, Troll)
          Ha ha.
          Passing Kijowski <jeanegrave@hotmail.com> -- Friday April 06 2001, @08:43AM (#9892)
          (User #1810 Info)
          So how can you call this a home, when you know it's a grave? But can you SING, Verrechia?
            Lucky people (Score:1)
            How I envy those people with interesting jobs! Being a sociologist and talking about how the glamour can be reconverted and new symbols are created... That's the opposite of bitter art criticism, for it is understanding how times change and how people are affected by all this.
            I wonder if the lecture could be posted somewhere, it would be so interesting to read it!
            Havfine -- Friday April 06 2001, @10:37AM (#9895)
            (User #284 Info)
            "Have you forgotten how to love yourself?" Red House Painters
              Ah, University! (Score:2, Funny)
              As a double major student (one being history), it is a great peice like this that makes me want to get my masters so i can teach classes and make Morrissey and The Smiths references!!!

              I'd teach: Great mobsters of the early 20th century.
                                   
                        History's greatest scandals AND FINALLY
                                   
                                    200 reasons to jump into Morrissey's pants... DAMNIT! I meant head... into his head. cause, you know.. he's so incredibly complex...
              but the pants are a nice bonus!!!

              ok, that's enough.. :-)
              Maplefreak -- Friday April 06 2001, @11:33AM (#9898)
              (User #1234 Info)
              And the songs we sing, they're not supposed to mean a thing...
                Smiths Lecture (Score:2)
                Lectures like this give academics a bad name. Isn't there a degree course in David Beckham studies somewhere? Good luck to the good doctor, at least he has a great taste in music, but honestly what could he tell us about the Smiths that we don't already know. They were a great band and mean a lot to us all but they hardly changed the social fabric of Britain. They championed Red Wedge and the miners strike and sadly got wasted both times.
                And now he's harshing on Morrissey's solo period!
                Those who can do, those who can't teach.
                Holy Name -- Friday April 06 2001, @12:24PM (#9902)
                (User #1418 Info)
                oh but I know what will make you smile tonight..
                  my god! im so jealous! (Score:1)
                  my best friend goes to UNC, and shes not a smiths fan... had i known about it, i wouldve hopped on down. damn! what a cool lecture!
                  thinlizzie -- Friday April 06 2001, @12:29PM (#9903)
                  (User #1134 Info)
                    Academia or Fandom? (Score:1, Interesting)
                    As much as I think that Morrissey/Smiths culture warrants academic investigation, as someone who studied popular culture, I'd say this guy is taking more a fan/rock critic perspective than one of than that of a critic judging from what is posted about his lecture. By that, I mean he's discussing what Smiths did as artists --glamorized poverty, reacted against contempory political and artistic currents (or judging that Morrissey's solo work was "poor"). That doesn't tell us much from a sociological/cultural perspective. But for all I know, he did focus on that aspect from the whole.

                    Frankly, I think from a sociological point of view, the post-breakup Morrissey fans would make an facinating study.

                    Xhris -- Friday April 06 2001, @01:24PM (#9905)
                    (User #1858 Info)
                    lost england? (Score:2, Flamebait)
                    hmmm... this guy's whole rap is dubious at best; saying that they longed for a "lost england"? This is, after all, a band who named an album "The Queen Is Dead." showing the jarman videos, which the band had nothing to do with; "glamourising poverty"? and the kicker, dissing Mozz's solo career; "Your Arsenal" kicks ass.
                    fut -- Friday April 06 2001, @05:04PM (#9913)
                    (User #401 Info | http://www.flickr.com/photos/iamklaus/ )
                    Hateful when you're dead... (Score:3, Funny)
                    One day, in 200 years, us kids will loathe Morrissey and the Smiths. At least 50% of our G.C.S.E. English courses will be based on Morrissey or Morrissey related material.

                    We will be trapped in a sweltering classroom, on a summer's day, trying to write 1000 words on whether Morrissey was the first and last great pop star, while all we really want to do is ogle the little red-haired cutie two desks in front.

                    We will be forced to watch such educational films as
                    'Morrissey in Love' and 'Carry on Kensington' and will develop a contempt for Morrissey far exceeding the current generation's contempt for Wilfred Owen or Siegfred# Sasson.

                    Is this what you wanted when you bought the records!? Is it!?

                    'I wanna go home, I don't wanna stay, Another Morrissey couplet will kill the hairs on the nape of my neck'
                    Ade <aprhyatt@aol.com> -- Saturday April 07 2001, @04:14AM (#9922)
                    (User #2458 Info)
                    A statement so deep it would take a lifetime to fully comprehend every nuance of its meaning. Either that or it’s Crap.
                      academia (Score:2, Insightful)
                      I'm not going to try to be witty following Ade's comment since that was one of the funniest bits I've ever read on this website. I'm currently a college student in Boston, MA and in my own personal experience, the music of the Smiths and/or Morrissey is incomprehensible to anybody outside what I lovingly refer to as "the cult of Morrissey." In the U.S. today, the Smiths are a extremely obscure cultural reference and people who may have heard about Morrissey in passing inevitably write him off as either one of two things:
                      1. Homosexual icon.
                      2. Suicidal icon.
                      Therefore, I am tempted to simply give up discussing Morrissey or the Smiths. Much like life, it is too complex a subject to even think about.
                      MTK -- Sunday April 08 2001, @10:13AM (#9934)
                      (User #1927 Info)
                      "Under the moonlight... The serious moonlight"
                      Sounds like heaven to me. (Score:1)
                      I'd just like to say that the lecture sounded fantastic. This story has impressed me no-end. I hope he comes over to the uk to lecture this some time. I will definately try to make it.

                      Listen, could everyone stop slagging this off? For crying out loud, this is an extremely intelligent man talking about a group for whom he has a great intrest in. What is your problem? ha! C'mon, you would have loved it... I know I would have done.

                      I wonder why the dislike to his solo material though... some of it is better than the group work. Well, I think so anyway.

                      swallow_on_my_neck <United Kingdom.> -- Sunday April 08 2001, @01:16PM (#9938)
                      (User #2115 Info)
                        impoverished one! (Score:1)
                        Moz's style and tone has noticeably changed since post-Smiths. The first love experience of when we first heard the Smith's should not cloud our image of growth and survival of Moz. His archive of songs reveal him at any given point without prejudice or predictionc like the view to a window. The determination used to attempt change or effect this outcome shuts down the ability to receive its beauty.
                        shyone -- Monday April 09 2001, @05:41PM (#9956)
                        (User #2359 Info)
                        Do androids dream of electric sheep?
                          Moz lecture (Score:2, Informative)
                          As a PhD student embarking on a study of post-Smiths Morrissey, I am slightly disheartened by some of the comments made here. I suppose that since I am a Musicologist (not a sociologist), I will do a better job than this fellow? Not necessarily. Music affects much of life, and in the readings I have done, many think that the Smiths did in fact have a great influence on English music (see Michael Bracewell's book, _England is Mine_ to see some of the longed for England of the past).

                          Also, as a Canadian (and as one who came to Morrissey's music much after the 1980s), it is increasingly difficult to work on the subject. Anyway, I just thought I would throw in my 2 cents. Thanks.

                          Nicholas Greco
                          PhD student, McGill University
                          Montreal QC Canada
                          Anonymous -- Tuesday April 10 2001, @05:43AM (#9969)
                          • Re:Moz lecture by Maplefreak (Score:1) Tuesday April 10 2001, @06:20PM
                            • Re:Moz lecture by Anonymous (Score:0) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:01AM
                              re: lecture (Score:0)

                              I think the last person that would know anything about the SMiths would be a professor. This moron, doesn't he realize how much better Morrissey's work was as a soloist? He probably did most of the writing for SMiths anyway..

                              The only significant SMiths album to me is 'MEat is Murder' and 'the Queen is Dead'.

                              He seems to have been more into the social rhetoric than the actual music itself..

                              Anonymous -- Tuesday April 10 2001, @06:28PM (#9998)
                                And now I know how Joan of Arc felt ! (Score:0)
                                So you don't need to feel ashamed of poverty and all the dirty scene where you came from, eh? I said once the smiths just hated the glamour of 80's, and someone said to me that Moz is just a catholic who hates everything. It's not so easy as it seems.

                                Why do we need fake misfits, when we can have all this desagreement? This adorable impudende wich brings so much truth, and so many monster Margaret ever wanted to hide?

                                MEDUSA

                                maladjusted68@hotmail.com
                                Anonymous -- Tuesday April 10 2001, @09:57PM (#10003)


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