Where is the Lyrical Depth?

[Vauxhall95]

Just got done with my first listen to "Years of Refusal." I'm struck by two aspects: first, we've already heard the vast majority of the album. The new material introduced on the last tour comes out just fine (IMO) with "Squeezing My Skull" really becoming a strong song. Other than the songs we've already heard, the new material (on first listen) doesn't seem to carry the same weight. I hope my opinion changes.:)

Two, I must confess disappointment with the lyrics. Besides, "Squeezing My Skull" there are really no memorable lyrics from this album. IMO, this is the first Morrissey album in which he fails to deliver the goods: no witty insights, sly one liners, just average run of the mill fair here.

With what seems a plethora of b-sides at the ready, I'm really hoping I get my Morrissey lyrical "tofu and potatoes" in those works.

P.S. I think the band with Morrissey singing with them sounds great. :guitar:

[Ben Budd]

Carol seems kinda interesting lyrically, I reckon.

[Erik]

I couldn't agree more. I've listened and listened and listened again, trying to give it chance and hoping against hope that something would catch my ears. "It's Not Your Birthday Anymore" started off with some promise but then builds up to nothing. It's like the first verse has melody then it get's lost in the chorus and never really finds its way back. All the songs, other than Skull and Farewell are lyrically duller than dull. I never thought I would start enjoying listening to other artists more than Morrissey's work. It really sucks!

[Vauxhall95]

I never thought I would start enjoying listening to other artists more than Morrissey's work. It really sucks!

My sentiments exactly...:(

Musically, the album is alright but it feels restrained. Towards the end of "Black Cloud" you can hear a guitar solo start but then you quickly realize the song ends. The slow breakdown at the end of "You Were Good in Your Time" is also perplexing: it starts off so promising with the French sound effects added and then builds to nothing.

I've never been one to really mind the music, I listen for Morrissey's words and this album just seems vapid. I'm really quite surprised.:confused:

[Corrissey]

Oh dear... I've always valued your opinion, Vauxhall. Unless you're talking about America ;) I shall try to listen with an unbiased ear in February. Good luck, I know. ;)

[thesqualorofthemind]

"Bailiffs with bad breath/I will slit their throats for you"

No one else would even think about such a line..:)

I would say the opposite to be honest, great lyrics, not so great music..

Only just listened though, some of my favourite albums of all time I have HATED on first listen. Plus a crappy MP3 will never beat the sound of a CD or vinyl record which we are all promising to buy in Feb!!!

How about..

"It's not your birthday anymore
there's no need to be kind to you
and the will to see you smile and belong has now gone
It's not your birthday anymore
did you really think we meant
all those syrupy, sentimental things
that we said?"

On top form here if you ask me..but the production and arrangement lets it down very badly. Hey ho..ask me after another 80 odd listens

[Vauxhall95]

Music is certainly subjective and for the record the first two songs begin the album with a wonderfully furious pitch. For me the album spirals downward from there; however as you wrote it's a first listen. I WANT it to improve.:)

As for great lyrics, you really think this compares with Vauxhall & I? Perhaps if I'd never heard the two songs from Greatest Hits and the ones played on tour I'd have a vastly different opinion - but I did, so I don't. Personally, I find "Children in Pieces" lyrical richer than anything on the album.

As for throat slitting, I'll take: "And a man who slits throats/Has time on his hands/And I'm going to get you" any day, any day, any day....:):):)



"Bailiffs with bad breath/I will slit their throats for you"

No one else would even think about such a line..:)

I would say the opposite to be honest, great lyrics, not so great music..

Only just listened though, some of my favourite albums of all time I have HATED on first listen. Plus a crappy MP3 will never beat the sound of a CD or vinyl record which we are all promising to buy in Feb!!!

How about..

"It's not your birthday anymore
there's no need to be kind to you
and the will to see you smile and belong has now gone
It's not your birthday anymore
did you really think we meant
all those syrupy, sentimental things
that we said?"

On top form here if you ask me..but the production and arrangement lets it down very badly. Hey ho..ask me after another 80 odd listens

[starless]

Sadly, I also find Children in Pieces better musically and lyrically than most of the tracks on YOR.

[riverbed]

It's so sad, I feel pretty much the same after one listen (and after reading the leaked lyrics a couple of weeks ago). It's like we've heard it all before, nothing's changed (I still love you?)...

I'm kind of disappointed at the moment, and I badly want this feeling to go away.

Oh, and I agree about Children in Pieces. My Dearest Love was really strong too. Shame they have been almost ignored.

[Stanley Ogden]

I`m a bit sad too, because I agree.

Earlier he had stories to tell (Even YATQ are full of them with America, Jesus, Couldn`t last)

On ROTT and YOR his lyrics has become more personal, and with that he serves us too much "i still love you, though I can not have you" and "I`m already dead"

[ThePersonUnderneath]

Then came an arm around my shoulder
well surely the hand holds a revolver?

Best rhyme since Stars/Reservoirs

[CrystalGeezer]

Maybe you cynics just need to dig a little deeper, beyond High School English Introduction to Metaphors. This thread is vapid.

[Voodoo Doll]

Yeah but Mozzie love on the floor?!? :horny:

[dicartwright]

Yeah but Mozzie love on the floor?!? :horny:

HAHA absolutely :horny:

I think YOR is a step up since ROTT, anyway I look at it. But I've said id more than I should have, lyrics haven't been superb for a long time now.
It has to do with the calm that comes with age I suppose. He's not tortured anymore :tears: (you know what I mean!)

[spinelessswine]

Then came an arm around my shoulder
well surely the hand holds a revolver?

Best rhyme since Stars/Reservoirs


See to me this still just comes from Morrissey's Big Book Of Modern Day Cliches.

We get it already Steven - nobody understands you, nobody wants your love, judges are proper rubbish. We. Get. It.

As I said in another thread, lyrically it feels like he's trying to write "A Morrissey Song" instead of a Morrissey song.

The lyrics are the least interesting thing on this record.

Bear in mind this is a record by a solo artist, thats pretty bad.

Then bear in mind this solo artist is Morrissey and it's pretty much inexcusable.

For those of you here that perhaps like Ryan Adams - Years of Refusal seems to be Moz's equivalent of Cardinology.

[TOBIN]

I am also dissapointed after my first listen,apart from something is squeezing my skull and mama the only song that stands out is its not your birthday anymore,this song starts out brilliant and really goes somehere but his wailing in the 2nd half of the song goes on a bit,
my view of things are he had 7yrs to write (lyrically and musically) some absolute crackers for yatq , and i think as of the morrissey now, bringing out an album every 2 yrs i feel with more time between each album the quality would be richer (lyrically and music),,
yatq deluxe version was a cracking collection of songs along with the extra tracks ie,friday mourning,,mexico etc (which may i say are far better than y.o.r),but these songs came in a 7 yr break(recording wise)

I am gonna wait for the deluxe version of y.o.r and hope for some cracking b sides...
I feel morrissey is like a mature wine the longer you leave him write, the quality from him is much better...steve.

[Lib]

wow, a lot of negative reviews here... honestly, i didn't even finish my first listen. got to the middle of the album and decided to go back in a few days. hopefully, i'll be in a different mood or something will change, but so far count me in with those who are mostly disappointed. so sorry to say that

[Lib]

For those of you here that perhaps like Ryan Adams - Years of Refusal seems to be Moz's equivalent of Cardinology.

perfect observation

[Jones]

wow, a lot of negative reviews here... honestly, i didn't even finish my first listen. got to the middle of the album and decided to go back in a few days. hopefully, i'll be in a different mood or something will change, but so far count me in with those who are mostly disappointed. so sorry to say that

So basically, you haven't bothered to listen to it but still feel qualified to dismiss it.

[A Mans Man]

Personally I really like the opening lyrics from "Its not your birthday anymore" - it actually says something to me about my life at the moment were I am trying to stay out of a situation but increasingly find myself drawn in against my better judgement

"Your voice it might say 'no'
but the heart has a will of its own
your voice it might say 'no'
but the heart has a heart of its own"

but I guess most of the lyrics do lack a certain gravitas and they dont really rummage through the emotional laundry like they used to but Morrissey is moving and adapting - a good thing? After all he can only write How Soon Is Now; TIALTNGO etc once and its unrealistic to expect these standards all the time. I also think the album sounds great; huge even but I agree a certain something (someone?) is missing in the music but he is still my hero and a genius and always will be and even on this album he is more interesting than anyone else out there! :guitar:

[ThePersonUnderneath]

HAHA absolutely :horny:

He's not tortured anymore

Listen to the yelps in Birthday! Aaah

[spinelessswine]

perfect observation

Thank you :)

It's genuinely the way I see it - Adams used to beautifully sum up his emotions and created a world lyrically and musically in which you could lose yourself. Now he is writing lyrical pastiches of himself and playing plodding pubrock.

A bit too similar to what we have on YoR for my liking!

[Vauxhall95]

Maybe you cynics just need to dig a little deeper, beyond High School English Introduction to Metaphors. This thread is vapid.

No really, tell us what you really think of us!:)

After several more listens, I'm certainly willing to edit my original opinion to some degree. "It's Not Your Birthday Anymore" is a good Morrissey tune. Also, I think the studio versions of the four songs played on tour are all very good. Additionally, AYNIM is great - always was.

However, "Black Cloud" is indefensible. The lyrics are banal and just when the music gets interesting the song ends. On the opposite end of the spectrum is "You Were Good in Your Time." I'm listening to this song thinking it's going to be an instant classic and then there is the senseless breakdown on the end ruining what could have been a brilliant song. The others are just so-so (IMO).

Again, it sounds like plenty of b-sides have been recorded, so I'm sure we'll get the usual genius.

P.S. I'll buy the album for the cover photo alone but please don't tell me my opinion is "vapid" and then offer nothing in the form of a counter argument.:)

[Vauxhall95]

That's the damnable thing about him. I cannot get enough of his music, so I want an album every year or two, but I think you're spot on when you write, "...Morrissey is like a mature wine the longer you leave him write, the quality from him is much better." Seven years without him was unbearable! I guess we reap the best from YOR (and there are some good/great songs) and hope for rich b-sides.

I want to hear "I Am Bully Do Not Forget Me!!!!!":)


I am also dissapointed after my first listen,apart from something is squeezing my skull and mama the only song that stands out is its not your birthday anymore,this song starts out brilliant and really goes somehere but his wailing in the 2nd half of the song goes on a bit,
my view of things are he had 7yrs to write (lyrically and musically) some absolute crackers for yatq , and i think as of the morrissey now, bringing out an album every 2 yrs i feel with more time between each album the quality would be richer (lyrically and music),,
yatq deluxe version was a cracking collection of songs along with the extra tracks ie,friday mourning,,mexico etc (which may i say are far better than y.o.r),but these songs came in a 7 yr break(recording wise)

I am gonna wait for the deluxe version of y.o.r and hope for some cracking b sides...
I feel morrissey is like a mature wine the longer you leave him write, the quality from him is much better...steve.

[CrystalGeezer]

please don't tell me my opinion is "vapid" and then offer nothing in the form of a counter argument.:)

I said the thread was vapid in response to you saying the lyrics were vapid. From what I gather your lyrical analysis concludes by suggesting there will never be a "classic" in this album so by default no true meaning can be gleaned from the lyrical content. There's so many logical fallacies within the broader context of "Where is the Lyrical Depth?" that I conclude the thread is the very word you chose to describe the album, a waste of time. Shame on you.

[Vauxhall95]

I don't believe in New Year's Resolutions, but I may just start. I promise to not get into any internet pissing contests anymore.

I never wrote the album was a waste of time. I wrote the first several songs were quite good. I also wrote, in my opinion, the lyrics were not as strong as Morrissey's previous efforts.

I realize over the last eight years of the Bush Administration there have been a lot of changes in the law; however, I'm fairly certain I'm still entitled to my opinion.:)



I said the thread was vapid in response to you saying the lyrics were vapid. From what I gather your lyrical analysis concludes by suggesting there will never be a "classic" in this album so by default no true meaning can be gleaned from the lyrical content. There's so many logical fallacies within the broader context of "Where is the Lyrical Depth?" that I conclude the thread is the very word you chose to describe the album, a waste of time. Shame on you.

[CrystalGeezer]

Fine. You can have you guns too so you can shoot down any possibility of an intellectual discussion about the lyrics. :)

[Vauxhall95]

Fine. You can have you guns too so you can shoot down any possibility of an intellectual discussion about the lyrics. :)

I'm up for an intellectual discussion. I thought my posts were thoughtful enough given it was after a first listen. All I'm saying is I love the man too, so if we have a difference of opinion there is no need to type five letter words.:)

Vaux:)

[CrystalGeezer]

I'm up for an intellectual discussion. I thought my posts were thoughtful enough given it was after a first listen. All I'm saying is I love the man too, so if we have a difference of opinion there is no need to type five letter words.:)

Vaux:)

Okay, I'll look at your side and offer my thoughts and we can maybe meld our ideas together. It was just the subject of the thread that bothered me I suppose because I feel it's a very deep album. I have to take my mom to the mall first though. :o Later?

[the beast]

i personally don't think the lyrics are the be all and end all. as long as the lyrics aren't completly ridiculous all's well if the tune's good:guitar:

[Not Right in the Head]

So there aren't any exploding body parts this time around?

[Mike Mozfan]

I am glad that someone has pointed this out. I don't think there has been ANY lyrical depth since at least Maladjusted, maybe even earlier. I do get tired of hearing Moz bemoan life in general, seems like a great genre for the depressed. It could also be perhaps the music itself; he hasn't written or co-written a song in years that the melody sticks in your head. I think the album Vauxhall was the last to have any musical value when it comes to the music itself. I know many will disagree, but the last 12 years or so of music to me has been very disappointing, maybe 15. I hear tthe newer releases and think sos. 3 chords and that is about it. Who is he co-writing with now? I ask because I think it's very sub-standard especially for such a talented man as Morrissey. Oh well, that is my 2 cents, you can beat me up for it, but we all have a right to express our feelings. :guitar:

[Vauxhall95]

Okay, I'll look at your side and offer my thoughts and we can maybe meld our ideas together. It was just the subject of the thread that bothered me I suppose because I feel it's a very deep album. I have to take my mom to the mall first though. :o Later?

Deal!:) I just had to take my son to the pharmacy. Life happens, it's so very annoying...:)

[Vauxhall95]

Oh dear... I've always valued your opinion, Vauxhall. Unless you're talking about America ;) I shall try to listen with an unbiased ear in February. Good luck, I know. ;)

I voted for Obama! I think you're confusing me with Vauxhall94 (a common occurrence).:) He's a real American American.:)

[Corrissey]

As I said in another thread, lyrically it feels like he's trying to write "A Morrissey Song" instead of a Morrissey song.

Interesting.


i personally don't think the lyrics are the be all and end all. as long as the lyrics aren't completly ridiculous all's well if the tune's good:guitar:

I agree. Unless the lyrics include stuff like "shit" or "puke"... :rolleyes: I hate that.

I'm enjoying everyone's reviews, good and bad, but I can't form a full opinion until I hear the record myself. *willpower don't fail me now!* Not everything he does appeals to the masses. Take Kill Uncle for example. ;)


I voted for Obama! I think you're confusing me with Vauxhall94 (a common occurrence).:) He's a real American American.:)

No confusion. I was referring to America is Not the World.

[CrystalGeezer]

IMO, this is the first Morrissey album in which he fails to deliver the goods: no witty insights, sly one liners, just average run of the mill fair here.


Hi Vaux. It's me again.

Okay, so you say the album lacks "lyrical depth," yet your argument seems to lament that there are no witty insights or easily quotable one liners, etc..

To me this album is the epitome of lyrical depth. For example, Mama Lay Softly on the Riverbed questions why a "mother" or someone named mama would do something perhaps unsavory, then resolves to defend said person from the people who pushed her into doing it, not placing blame on her for doing it, but recognizing the same temptation in himself and empathizing with the situation with the resolve to protect her from future attack. This "mama" is no doubt MOTHER EARTH herself, for the goal is to lie down beside her (in his grave in the EARTH) and be sheltered with her. He alludes to kissing her as well, much like a man praying to heaven kisses the ground like a sun salutation in yoga. And who is this we? Is Morrissey the voice of many who seek to bond and be connected with the safety of Mother Earth? He's onto something here. I just caution you not to discount the lyrical depth while looking for witty one liners when the fabric of an awakening is right in front of your eyes, though perhaps it's foolish of me to cast pearls before swine, but I'm eager to hear your opinion. :)

[the beast]

[QUOTE=Corrissey;1050726]Interesting.



I agree. Unless the lyrics include stuff like "shit" or "puke"... :rolleyes: I hate that.

I'm enjoying everyone's reviews, good and bad, but I can't form a full opinion until I hear the record myself. *willpower don't fail me now!* Not everything he does appeals to the masses. Take Kill Uncle for example. ;)


;););) me and kill uncle get on very well together.......most of the time:guitar:

[dizzywhore_1804]

For example, Mama Lay Softly on the Riverbed questions why a "mother" or someone named mama would do something perhaps unsavory, then resolves to defend said person from the people who pushed her into doing it, not placing blame on her for doing it, but recognizing the same temptation in himself and empathizing with the situation with the resolve to protect her from future attack. This "mama" is no doubt MOTHER EARTH herself, for the goal is to lie down beside her (in his grave in the EARTH) and be sheltered with her. He alludes to kissing her as well, much like a man praying to heaven kisses the ground like a sun salutation in yoga. And who is this we? Is Morrissey the voice of many who seek to bond and be connected with the safety of Mother Earth? He's onto something here.

Wow, that is both something I had never thought of and yet instantly disagree with.
You can grab the latest dire pop song by anyone and crowbar depth into it, and you usually end up stretching it to a quite unbelievable conclusion.
There is as far as I'm aware nothing in the song that would make allusions think of Mother Earth (what an awful term). I agree with the first part of your analysis but it falls down at the Earth stuff, I just don't think there is anything to back it up.

My problem is that there seems to be no thinking behind the lyrics, most of them can be summed up quite easily in a sentence or two.
I'd be interested in seeing how many times in this album very obvious references to rejection are made.

I'm sure people will disagree with me, but I find that by focusing almost the entire album on his own feelings it lacks any sort of empathy.
With the exception of 'Skull', 'Carol' and 'Mama' there doesn't seem to be any other themes in the album other than being turned down. Which wouldn't be a problem for me, as it is a HUGE subject, except Morrissey has dealt with this theme countless times before and done it much more eloquent way.
Much of the album deals with themes much better expressed in previous albums.

Kills me to say it but some of the songs sound like a very good Morrissey impersonator trying some new material. I feel it lacks some of the magic. Which is horrible, but how I feel.

I've only heard it a few times (although I am already finding myself skipping certain songs) so hopefully it'll grow on me as a whole. Hearing songs live also help, so we'll see how I feel in May.

I'd love to love the album, but so far it's not blown me away.

[CrystalGeezer]

Wow, that is both something I had never thought of and yet instantly disagree with.
You can grab the latest dire pop song by anyone and crowbar depth into it, and you usually end up stretching it to a quite unbelievable conclusion.
There is as far as I'm aware nothing in the song that would make allusions think of Mother Earth (what an awful term). I agree with the first part of your analysis but it falls down at the Earth stuff, I just don't think there is anything to back it up.


You don't think being sheltered WITH mama in his GRAVE (which is in the earth) is an allusion to mother earth, an awful term? :confused: Go read the lyrics again.

Or is the term Mother Earth awful to you because it's full of awe?

[dizzywhore_1804]

You don't think being sheltered WITH mama in his GRAVE (which is in the earth) is an allusion to mother earth, an awful term? :confused: Go read the lyrics again.

Or is the term Mother Earth awful to you because it's full of awe?

Nope - I'd say the chances are (judging by all the references to money-men, civil servants etc) it's more about the very literal alleged hounding of his family by the courts when he lost the court case.

And I find the term 'Mother Earth' just a quite gross phrase, I'm not sure why. I think Captain Planet tainted it for me.

[CrystalGeezer]

Nope - I'd say the chances are (judging by all the references to money-men, civil servants etc) it's more about the very literal alleged hounding of his family by the courts when he lost the court case.


Soooooooo, what do you think Morrissey's mom (Elizabeth?) did exactly that would make he and some other people run to her and "lie down" beside her? :confused: C'mon dizzywhore, use your imagination, the lyrics are not literal.

[dizzywhore_1804]

Soooooooo, what do you think Morrissey's mom (Elizabeth?) did exactly that would make he and some other people run to her and "lie down" beside her? :confused: C'mon dizzywhore, use your imagination, the lyrics are not literal.

Maybe not, but I don't think there is anything in there to suggest it's about Going Green ('Methane Is Murder', anyone?) either.

I'm all for using my imagination but sometimes it doesn't work.

I'd love to know the deeper meaning of 'You Only Tell Me You Love Me When You're Drunk' by the Pet Shop Boys if you get a chance?

[ThePersonUnderneath]

It's not about his actual mum. Thanks for that.

But I think the narrative of the song is more or less literal, although used to explore a number of ideas. I think the subject of the song is an interesting continuation of a theme that's persisted throughout his work - it instantly reminded me of 'Mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head.' There's always been an association between Mother and Suffocation/Death ('Smother me mother'), hated and embraced. Remember he always 'ran back to Ma' on all his albums.

People have complained about a lack of empathy but this lyric is an expression of really powerful love and sympathy for someone who has been driven to exhaustion by a world unsuited to them (see Oscar Wilde, James Dean) but the song's narrator feels an inescapable, suffocating affinity with, and a rash, childish-adolescant, protective, passionate Hand-in-Glove love for ('I will slit their throats for you'). I think the end of the song is a fine example of that old Morrissey trick of making what is intensely personal, universal, and creating that 'Shoplifers of the World' unity, seige-mentality (We're gonna run to you, we're gonna come to you) while at the same time making the filial, almost sexual: 'We're gonna lie down beside you Mama.'

As a whole, it seems like a half-remembered expression of a child's emotions, which is illustrated in the wording of the title, the past tense and the use of the diminutive 'Mama', but tinged with an acquired bitterness at the 'lonely' world he has experienced 'here without you', berating the 'pigs in grey suits' ('policewomen, policemen, silly women, taxmen'), perhaps expressing a projected anger for an absent yet idolised mother figure.

It's a fucking great song.

[CrystalGeezer]

I'd love to know the deeper meaning of 'You Only Tell Me You Love Me When You're Drunk' by the Pet Shop Boys if you get a chance?

Morrissey is not The Pet Shop Boys.


It's not about his actual mum. Thanks for that.

But I think the narrative of the song is more or less literal, although used to explore a number of ideas. I think the subject of the song is an interesting continuation of a theme that's persisted throughout his work - it instantly reminded me of 'Mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head.' There's always been an association between Mother and Suffocation/Death ('Smother me mother'), hated and embraced. Remember he always 'ran back to Ma' on all his albums.

People have complained about a lack of empathy but this lyric is an expression of really powerful love and sympathy for someone who has been driven to exhaustion by a world unsuited to them (see Oscar Wilde, James Dean) but the song's narrator feels an inescapable, suffocating affinity with, and a rash, childish-adolescant, protective, passionate Hand-in-Glove love for ('I will slit their throats for you'). I think the end of the song is a fine example of that old Morrissey trick of making what is intensely personal, universal, and creating that 'Shoplifers of the World' unity, seige-mentality (We're gonna run to you, we're gonna come to you) while at the same time making the filial, almost sexual: 'We're gonna lie down beside you Mama.'

As a whole, it seems like a half-remembered expression of a child's emotions, which is illustrated in the wording of the title, the past tense and the use of the diminutive 'Mama', but tinged with an acquired bitterness at the 'lonely' world he has experienced 'here without you', berating the 'pigs in grey suits' ('policewomen, policemen, silly women, taxmen'), perhaps expressing a projected anger for an absent yet idolised mother figure.

It's a fucking great song.

You nailed it.

[dizzywhore_1804]

I'd just like to point out I don't think it is a literal re-telling of what happened to his Mum, but that's a more likely inspiration than the Mother Earth school of thought.

I think it is a very literal song, it is about exactly what it says it is.

[dizzywhore_1804]

Morrissey is not The Pet Shop Boys.

You nailed it.

Morrissey is also not the only person capable of clever, complex lyrics :rolleyes:

I'd also argue that the PSB have achieved what Morrissey always failed to do - writing clever, involving, funny, smart songs with a pop sensibility and being successful and appealing to a 'pop' audience.
I think even in The Smiths they were always too indie.

Now, that's not a bad thing, and I'd like to state I adore Morrissey, but he's not beyond a dud song now and then ;)

[CrystalGeezer]

I'd just like to point out I don't think it is a literal re-telling of what happened to his Mum, but that's a more likely inspiration than the Mother Earth school of thought.

I think it is a very literal song, it is about exactly what it says it is.

Mmmmmm. I bet Something is Squeezing My Skull is about a hat that doesn't fit properly.

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

Mmmmmm. I bet Something is Squeezing My Skull is about a hat that doesn't fit properly.
me too :D

[CrystalGeezer]

me too :D

Yeah, I got to thinking about it and that does actually make sense. :D Kind of like Cinderella and her shoes, but with hats. :p

[dizzywhore_1804]

Mmmmmm. I bet Something is Squeezing My Skull is about a hat that doesn't fit properly.

I'm not saying Morrissey can't write lyrics with dual meanings, I'm saying 'Mama...' is not one an example of one of them.
I honestly can't believe I'm the only person who sees NO strong connection to 'Mother Earth' in this song?

As for 'Skull...' I'd say it's a pretty literal song too. He mentions drugs prescribed for depression and the like by name.
Although, if we look hard enough, I bet it's really about globalization ;)

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Hi Vaux. It's me again.

Okay, so you say the album lacks "lyrical depth," yet your argument seems to lament that there are no witty insights or easily quotable one liners, etc..

To me this album is the epitome of lyrical depth. For example, Mama Lay Softly on the Riverbed questions why a "mother" or someone named mama would do something perhaps unsavory, then resolves to defend said person from the people who pushed her into doing it, not placing blame on her for doing it, but recognizing the same temptation in himself and empathizing with the situation with the resolve to protect her from future attack. This "mama" is no doubt MOTHER EARTH herself, for the goal is to lie down beside her (in his grave in the EARTH) and be sheltered with her. He alludes to kissing her as well, much like a man praying to heaven kisses the ground like a sun salutation in yoga. And who is this we? Is Morrissey the voice of many who seek to bond and be connected with the safety of Mother Earth? He's onto something here. I just caution you not to discount the lyrical depth while looking for witty one liners when the fabric of an awakening is right in front of your eyes, though perhaps it's foolish of me to cast pearls before swine, but I'm eager to hear your opinion. :)

The mother has left her children, which means she was beyond desperate. You have no idea what a woman will endure to avoid hurting her children. Then again, perhaps you do. I don't know.


Mmmmmm. I bet Something is Squeezing My Skull is about a hat that doesn't fit properly.

No, a wig. ;) Trust me, I know from wigs.

And in answer to the original question: It's there. Don't forget, these are brand new to us. All the old Smiths lyrics are 25+ years old, we've had all that time to disentangle them. I still keep coming across references that could have been influences, there are entire sites devoted to tracking them.

[Claudia2006]

I'm not saying Morrissey can't write lyrics with dual meanings, I'm saying 'Mama...' is not one an example of one of them.
I honestly can't believe I'm the only person who sees NO strong connection to 'Mother Earth' in this song?

As for 'Skull...' I'd say it's a pretty literal song too. He mentions drugs prescribed for depression and the like by name.
Although, if we look hard enough, I bet it's really about globalization ;)

You are not the only one who sees zero connection to "mother earth."

I think it's pretty literal - sung in the voice of the dead mother's bewildered children left alone. I think there's sympathy for the mother but the fact that it's in the voice of the children talking about killing themselves to be with her again makes it sound accusatory towards the mother as well. It's unspoken, but the very first time I heard it I felt like there was a hint of "look what you've done" towards the mother.

[CrystalGeezer]

Although, if we look hard enough, I bet it's really about globalization ;)

I think what I'm failing to communicate is that Mother Earth is not necessarily "the earth." She's a person. Who's head tilts at the same axis as the earth. Who holds a baby. Do you see where I'm going with this?

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

Yeah, I got to thinking about it and that does actually make sense. :D Kind of like Cinderella and her shoes, but with hats. :p
this works for me on many levels http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/gulrober/33.gif
i once had a hat so tight it gave me migraines :eek:
and recently i have taken up a habit(when drunk) of placing my hat on the heads of girls i like just to see what it looks like :o
sometimes i 4get to get them back and the hats are gone 4ever :tears:
but the one that brings my hat back, her i might marry :guitar:

[dizzywhore_1804]

I think what I'm failing to communicate is that Mother Earth is not necessarily "the earth." She's a person. Who's head tilts at the same axis as the earth. Who holds a baby. Do you see where I'm going with this?

I do.
And I'm even more worried about you now :confused:

[Not Right in the Head]

I think what I'm failing to communicate is that Mother Earth is not necessarily "the earth." She's a person. Who's head tilts at the same axis as the earth. Who holds a baby. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Not in the slightest.

[CrystalGeezer]

I do.
And I'm even more worried about you now :confused:

What am I talking about?

[dizzywhore_1804]

What am I talking about?

I really hope you're not tying in the album cover, with your tenuous analysis of one song off the album?

[CrystalGeezer]

I really hope you're not tying in the album cover, with your tenuous analysis of one song off the album?

Sort of. But who else holds a baby?

[dizzywhore_1804]

Sort of. But who else holds a baby?

I'm about to jump into the bath so how about you lay it out for me?

[CrystalGeezer]

I'm about to jump into the bath so how about you lay it out for me?

You figure it out. Think about it.

Also, this is just one song, imagine what the others are saying?

[dizzywhore_1804]

You figure it out. Think about it.

Also, this is just one song, imagine what the others are saying?

I'm not gonna think about it, I disagree with the thought at the beginning of the process so why bother trying to crowbar in support for it?

There is nothing in the lyrics (and I've read, and reread them tonight trying to see what you're saying) that would lead me in the slightest to agree with your analysis.

I think you let yourself and the artist down by searching for meanings that aren't there. I suppose it could be argued it's a better way to be, because you'll never be disappointed or let down.
On the other hand, when a mind blowing song or lyric comes my way it's much more impressive and I appreciate it a lot more.

[CrystalGeezer]

You think I let the artist down?

[dizzywhore_1804]

You think I let the artist down?

No, I don't reckon Morrissey is crying into his tea because you've missed the point - but I think by applying blatent misinterpretation you take away the magic of the actual song.

I think 'Mama...' is a pretty good song. I don't think the studio version is as good as hearing it live, but think it has something interesting to say and says it very well in those four minutes.
I don't think you need to artificially attach a false sentiment to it, just to make it more profound.

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

You think I let the artist down?

dizzywhore_1804 thinks ur dumb, deal with it :rolleyes:

[CrystalGeezer]

No, I don't reckon Morrissey is crying into his tea because you've missed the point - but I think by applying blatent misinterpretation you take away the magic of the actual song.

I think 'Mama...' is a pretty good song. I don't think the studio version is as good as hearing it live, but think it has something interesting to say and says it very well in those four minutes.
I don't think you need to artificially attach a false sentiment to it, just to make it more profound.

Huh. So Morrissey is just a man singing songs about stuff, you know, normal stuff, because after all he just likes singing songs because that's the kind of guy he is and we should just enjoy those songs and not investigate them because afterall, he may seem a little strange, but that's because he is, but other than that, there's really nothing going on upstairs?

[dizzywhore_1804]

Huh. So Morrissey is just a man singing songs about stuff, you know, normal stuff, because after all he just likes singing songs because that's the kind of guy he is and we should just enjoy those songs and not investigate them because afterall, he may seem a little strange, but that's because he is, but other than that, there's really nothing going on upstairs?

Oh dear Lord - have you missed the numerous times I've said I agree Morrissey has written some complex lyrics in the past but I do not think that MAMA LAY SOFTLY ON THE RIVERBED is an example of that?

I don't think you have provided any real evidence for it being about 'Mother Earth', and I think I (and others in previous threads) have provided evidence to the contrary.

If you want to keep applying my argument for one song across 25 years of back-catalogue that's up to you. But please don't be that silly :cool:

[Danny_]

I don't understand why people think metaphor equals "deep". Morrissey has never used metaphor to a large extent. He's not one for hidden meanings. Usually he means just what he says. He paints a picture, sometimes it's very ambiguous, but it's not as simple as a clue with a definite hidden meaning you have to figure out.

[CrystalGeezer]

What do you think this song is about?

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

What do you think this song is about?
Ophelia, duh

[Danny_]

Pain, betrayal, exploitation, and love.

[CrystalGeezer]

But before you say that I am blatantly misinterpreting the song and subsequently sapping the magic from it thereby letting down the artist, explain to me what you think the song is about using Morrissey's words?

[still ill life]

[QUOTE=Vauxhall95;1050399]No really, tell us what you really think of us!:)
Again, it sounds like plenty of b-sides have been recordedQUOTE]

That also could almost be a description of the album Years of Refusal, I'm afraid...

Maybe not in Morrisseys case, since he usally has put out nice b-sides, but...you get my point. :(

[CrystalGeezer]

It is about Mama Rosa in the Pasolini movie. At the end of the movie her son is in prison, tied down, shouting for his mother and Mama Rosa tries to jump out of the window, but her neighbours and friends from the market hold her back just in time before she actually jumps.

How interesting. But why the grave do you think?

[CrystalGeezer]

You know what? I am baffled. I am absolutely dumb struck as to WHY my theory is implausible because I mention “mother earth.” Would it sound better if I said Madre Terra? It must be wrong because I said it is the disease here, yet nobody can explain the grave, the dirt they’re going to lie down in. and I’m supposed to sit back and say, “Oh they’re not going to believe me so I should shut up because I’m humiliating myself.” You know what’s humiliating? That Morrissey fans don’t take the time to question WHAT THE LYRICS MEAN, rather quibbling about chart position and how much they’re going to spend this year to see him. To entertain the notion of “being silly,” who exactly do you think this “girlfriend in a coma” was? This dormant girl whom he couldn’t live with or without? It’s himself. It’s a miracle. But nobody wants to see it. It’s like the saddest thing I’ve ever witnessed and all I can do is sit back and say that I’m crazy. It’s me you’re going to miss when I’m gone so I’d advise you to start asking questions now.

[CrystalGeezer]

And for your information, if anyone cares, I love the music foremost. But the lyrics are important. PAY ATTENTION.

[CrystalGeezer]

No, I don't reckon Morrissey is crying into his tea because you've missed the point - but I think by applying blatent misinterpretation you take away the magic of the actual song.

I think 'Mama...' is a pretty good song. I don't think the studio version is as good as hearing it live, but think it has something interesting to say and says it very well in those four minutes.
I don't think you need to artificially attach a false sentiment to it, just to make it more profound.

One last thing before I go to bed dejected and sick of defending something that's difficult to define. I'm not asking anyone to drop their belief regarding the interpretation of a song, but I resent, and have stewed all day about this, the implication that I artificially attach false sentiment to a song to make it more profound. This is my interpretation, yet your only argument is that I'm wrong because most likely Morrissey is saying "something interesting" yet you can't say what it is so by default neither can I. So on that note, screw you and good night.

[CrystalGeezer]

Besides, it's probably all about Johnny Marr anyway, why do I bother? NOW I'm going to bed. And for your information, Johnny Marr is married, I doubt Morrissey's a homewrecker. GOOD NIGHT! :mad:

[spinelessswine]

Besides, it's probably all about Johnny Marr anyway, why do I bother? NOW I'm going to bed. And for your information, Johnny Marr is married, I doubt Morrissey's a homewrecker. GOOD NIGHT! :mad:

Wowzers.

I think people are trying a little too hard to read something into lyrics that don't seem to have much to them. The lyrics now just seem to be, to quote Paul Draper, "just a vehicle for a lovely voice" when before they seemed to mean the world.

[CrystalGeezer]

I read through Morrissey's interviews and listened to them on youtube. Somewhere in all this I read that Mama is about the movie Mama Rosa. I watched the movie and I told you its ending. I don't know why Morrissey tried to give the movie an alternative ending. I thought it great that in the movie the neighbours and friends kept her from jumping. Very often people give such a person the final push.

Besides Morrissey was directly quoted in an interview in regards to "girlfriend in a coma". He said that it is about somebody in a drug haze. So the person is in a coma caused by drugs.

Well, there it is.

[CrystalGeezer]

Where is what?

The answers. Thank you for them, clearly I'm reading too much into his lyrics. At least your response is more rewarding than "he's doing something interesting within 4 minutes."

[CrystalGeezer]

You are very sure of yourself, aren't you. At least this is how you came across. You were asking for trouble.

I've never been more sure about anything in my life. I've studied symbolism for 20 years. I know how to detect forced symbolism and real symbolism. Morrissey is a gift from God, his words reflect a higher ideal. I've trained my whole life to watch for this, these signs. I'm not saying I'm Kung Foo Panda or anything, I'm saying that I know how to see these things because I've learned them in weird books and hours and hours and hours of tutoring from a man who also knows about things most people don't. I can joke in other threads and am a normal person, but it's my job to point out that Morrissey is showing us who he is. But, I also don't want to force anything down anyone's throat, but stuff's happening.

[bhops]

I've never been more sure about anything in my life. I've studied symbolism for 20 years. I know how to detect forced symbolism and real symbolism. Morrissey is a gift from God, his words reflect a higher ideal. I've trained my whole life to watch for this, these signs. I'm not saying I'm Kung Foo Panda or anything, I'm saying that I know how to see these things because I've learned them in weird books and hours and hours and hours of tutoring from a man who also knows about things most people don't. I can joke in other threads and am a normal person, but it's my job to point out that Morrissey is showing us who he is. But, I also don't want to force anything down anyone's throat, but stuff's happening.

I'm sorry but this has to be the most bonkers reading of a Morrissey lyric that I've ever heard.

I've felt and have always felt that way way waaayy too much gets read into Morrissey's lyrics by obsessive fans who believe that Morrissey is somehow communicating in some secret language to them.

Newsflash: He isn't.

But hey if that's what the song means to you that's what it means to you, there really is no right or wrong.

But please tell me what do baliff's have to do with mother earth? Oh let me guess they are governments of the world, and big corporations that pollute the earth regardless of environmental laws.

It reminds me of Nostrodamus, if you really want to, you can read into it what you want, and so too with Morrissey.

But I'll put big bucks on this NOT being Morrissey's eco anthem.

If you want a good one try Dan le Sac and Scrooobius Pip's 'Letter to God.'

[CrystalGeezer]

I'm sorry but this has to be the most bonkers reading of a Morrissey lyric that I've ever heard.

I've felt and have always felt that way way waaayy too much gets read into Morrissey's lyrics by obsessive fans who believe that Morrissey is somehow communicating in some secret language to them.

Newsflash: He isn't.

But hey if that's what the song means to you that's what it means to you, there really is no right or wrong.

But please tell me what do baliff's have to do with mother earth? Oh let me guess they are governments of the world, and big corporations that pollute the earth regardless of environmental laws.

It reminds me of Nostrodamus, if you really want to, you can read into it what you want, and so too with Morrissey.

But I'll put big bucks on this NOT being Morrissey's eco anthem.

If you want a good one try Dan le Sac and Scrooobius Pip's 'Letter to God.'

That's funny. I never said it was his eco-anthem. Mother Earth is Mary you moron.

[bhops]

That's funny. I never said it was his eco-anthem. Mother Earth is Mary you moron.

No you didn't but what else was I to take from your frankly bizarre reading of the song as?

Lie down with mother earth and take shelter. Holy moly and WTF?

And how did you know I'm a moron?

Have you been talking to one/any of my ex-girlfriends?

[CrystalGeezer]

No you didn't but what else was I to take from your frankly bizarre reading of the song as?

Lie down with mother earth and take shelter. Holy moly and WTF?

And how did you know I'm a moron?

Have you been talking to one/any of my ex-girlfriends?

I deduced you were a moron like I deduce that Morrissey's lyrics are extraordinary. You should trust my deduction skills because while nutters think that Nostradamus is talking to them, I can show on many different levels and in several traditions that Morrissey is "different." His work is multi-cultural and the interesting thing is that he's probably learning about it one day at a time himself as I am, I hope anyway. I don't think he's "talking to me" specifically, he's talking to us. I just know what he's saying because I've been taught to recognize it. Trust me, I'd trade this job in for anything, it's not easy. Except for being a moron, now that's an easy job. Try pretending to be a moron, that's more difficult. :p

[spinelessswine]

I've never been more sure about anything in my life. I've studied symbolism for 20 years. I know how to detect forced symbolism and real symbolism. Morrissey is a gift from God, his words reflect a higher ideal. I've trained my whole life to watch for this, these signs. I'm not saying I'm Kung Foo Panda or anything, I'm saying that I know how to see these things because I've learned them in weird books and hours and hours and hours of tutoring from a man who also knows about things most people don't. I can joke in other threads and am a normal person, but it's my job to point out that Morrissey is showing us who he is. But, I also don't want to force anything down anyone's throat, but stuff's happening.

"I was driving my car
I crashed and broke my spine
So yes there are things worse in life than never being someones sweetie
That's how people grow up"

If that's a higher ideal than I'm perfectly happy where I am.

No offence, but you are mad as a bottle of wasps.

[bhops]

I deduced you were a moron like I deduce that Morrissey's lyrics are extraordinary. You should trust my deduction skills because while nutters think that Nostradamus is talking to them, I can show on many different levels and in several traditions that Morrissey is "different." His work is multi-cultural and the interesting thing is that he's probably learning about it one day at a time himself as I am, I hope anyway. I don't think he's "talking to me" specifically, he's talking to us. I just know what he's saying because I've been taught to recognize it. Trust me, I'd trade this job in for anything, it's not easy. Except for being a moron, now that's an easy job. Try pretending to be a moron, that's more difficult. :p

You should contact that dude that wrote the Morrissey/Diana conspiracy mystery.

Apparently (and that guy gave countless examples just like you claim you are willing to do) as to how Morrissey fortold the death of Diana.

Man Morrissey has more powers than he realises!

Seriously you and that other guy should get together and read tea leaves, howl at the moon and swap some ideas you'd have a great time.

[CrystalGeezer]

"I was driving my car
I crashed and broke my spine
So yes there are things worse in life than never being someones sweetie
That's how people grow up"

If that's a higher ideal than I'm perfectly happy where I am.

No offence, but you are mad as a bottle of wasps.

Perhaps. (i'm not though.) BUt since you want to play pick and choose fun with symbols, you seem to think this is literal, that he crashed his car and broke his spine, that you're happier in your "space" or "ideal" or whatever. But let's say it's a (GODFORBID:eek:) metaphor for something else? What do you think the metaphor of his "spine" could be?

[CrystalGeezer]

Seriously you and that other guy should get together and read tea leaves, howl at the moon and swap some ideas you'd have a great time.

Totally. We could paint pictures of Morrissey with my menstrual blood and do tarot readings predicting how well the tour will go. :( For some reason I was in contact with that man, he's very nice but keeps to himself.

[bhops]

Totally. We could paint pictures of Morrissey with my menstrual blood and do tarot readings predicting how well the tour will go. :( For some reason I was in contact with that man, he's very nice but keeps to himself.

It comes to me as no surprise that you were in contact with that man. No surprise at all.

[CrystalGeezer]

It comes to me as no surprise that you were in contact with that man. No surprise at all.

Oh. Am I guilty of insanity by association?

[bhops]

Oh. Am I guilty of insanity by association?

To be guilty of insanity by association you are insinuating that the other guy must be insane?

I certainly didn't make that assertion all I said was I think you two would have a lot to talk about.

Now I'm tired and having read a few other pages on this thread I realise I'm not the first sucker who has tried to use reason and logic in a futile attempt to talk you down from bizarre and zany ledge you now find yourself stranded on.

So I'll bid you goodnight, leave you with the last word and let some other poor moron get into this with you.

[CrystalGeezer]

key word = stranded

sweet dreams

[spinelessswine]

Perhaps. (i'm not though.) BUt since you want to play pick and choose fun with symbols, you seem to think this is literal, that he crashed his car and broke his spine, that you're happier in your "space" or "ideal" or whatever. But let's say it's a (GODFORBID:eek:) metaphor for something else? What do you think the metaphor of his "spine" could be?

Ok, you want me to dissect the lyrics to that song? Ok here is how I see it - and do bear in mind this is simply my opinion -

They're nonsense.
Actual human nonsense.
They don't mean anything.
They are a collection of words that an incredibly talented man threw together to sound similar to his stronger work and to fit around a melody he had written for a dull piece of music that sounded vaguely commercial.
I don't believe they are based on a true story.
I reckon we would've heard if Moz had been in a car crash and broke his spine.
Pointing out that there are things worse in life than never being someones sweetie is not the kind of observation that only someone who was a gift from God could've made. It's pretty obvious. For example, I would much rather go through my entire life having never been someones sweetie than get gang-raped a bunch of rabid wolves in Steven Gerrard masks screaming the lyrics to 'Have A Nice Day' by Stereophonics in my face.
Morrissey is not a gift from God. He is one of the greatest British lyricists of all-time who seems to be losing his touch of late.

In summary - I'm not overly keen on the new album.

[Jones]

If you put on a record expecting to be stunned by the lyrical content, I can guarantee you won't be. Sitting back and saying "impress me" is never the right way to approach a new record.

What is lyrical depth anyway? A lot of Smiths records were often a series of quips. Lyrically interesting maybe, but often not much depth. It's very easy to put together lyrics that people will interpret as being "deep". Just make sure you make the meaning as obscure as you possibly can. Coldplay are good at that. It's much harder to write directly and clearly.

[spinelessswine]

If you put on a record expecting to be stunned by the lyrical content, I can guarantee you won't be. Sitting back and saying "impress me" is never the right way to approach a new record.

What is lyrical depth anyway? A lot of Smiths records were often a series of quips. Lyrically interesting maybe, but often not much depth. It's very easy to put together lyrics that people will interpret as being "deep". Just make sure you make the meaning as obscure as you possibly can. Coldplay are good at that. It's much harder to write directly and clearly.


I never said I was sitting back demanding to be impressed but there are certain traits that draw you to an artist and with Morrissey his lyrics were the main thing. I could sit and just read the booklet that came with the record and be happy. Now the lyrics just seem to drop into the song as some sort of melodic addition to the song and nothing more.

I don't demand answers from an artist over every piece of music but if I feel that a piece of writing is lazy then I have every right to say so. I feel there's some really lazy stuff on this record.

I don't agree on your point about Coldplay at all though - I don't think they're good at sounding obscure or deep. I never for one second sit back and think about the meaning of such all-purpose phrasing.

[CrystalGeezer]

In my point of view nothing to be especially proud of. Why do you and the many other people who use symbols need a secret language for? Because you have a silly elitist way of thinking and need to be "special",one of the few who understand the "symbols". And then you go public with it to communicate to the "other chosen few" who "understand" and insult others claiming that they "don't understand", while you and your likes are simply not able to use a language that everybody understand. Oh no, sorry, it is not a matter of not being able to, it is a matter of not wanting to, only in wanting to insult others for their "inferiority".

Well, you make many excellent points. But I think you misunderstand my intentions. I don't want to insult you, I want you to question the lyrics, to see for yourself instead of dismiss what you don't understand as intentional gibberish. I'd say that's insulting to Morrissey. But you're absolutely correct, secret languages are ridiculous and nothing to be proud of knowing or aligning oneself with. One would think the word of God would come from a place of Truth, not secrets.

[dizzywhore_1804]

Well, you make many excellent points. But I think you misunderstand my intentions. I don't want to insult you, I want you to question the lyrics, to see for yourself instead of dismiss what you don't understand as intentional gibberish. I'd say that's insulting to Morrissey. But you're absolutely correct, secret languages are ridiculous and nothing to be proud of knowing or aligning oneself with. One would think the word of God would come from a place of Truth, not secrets.

Who is to say we don't understand the lyrics?
Just because you and your apparently superior understanding of symbolism have come to one conclusion doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it. But if you're the only one supporting the idea maybe you've gone too far through the looking glass?

You can dig and dig and dig for deeper meaning, but eventually you're just going to find what you're looking for and not what is actually there.

And what was all that stuff about Mother Earth being Mary? You make less and less sense the more you reveal. I'm not even convinced you're discussing the song any more, you've completely left the lyric sheet and are just analysing the symbolism of the symbols only you have seen...

[CrystalGeezer]

And what was all that stuff about Mother Earth being Mary? You make less and less sense the more you reveal. I'm not even convinced you're discussing the song any more, you've completely left the lyric sheet and are just analysing the symbolism of the symbols only you have seen...

Here's a wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_goddess). Scroll down to "Christianity."

[dizzywhore_1804]

Here's a wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_goddess). Scroll down to "Christianity."

OK, I still don't see how on Earth that ties into the song though.

It's all very depended on taking the words 'Mama', 'grave' and 'lay' as the three most important words and interpretting them to them exclusion of everything else.
Why can't it just be a song about a mother driven to despair/suicide and her children being torn between protecting her and wanting to stay with her even after her death?

[CrystalGeezer]

I have not dismissed what I don't understand as intentional gibberish.
I never once said anywhere that I don't understand Morrissey's lyrics.
You are saying that and claimed that you are the only one who does understand them.

You're correct, I was unfairly lumping you in with some of the other comments regarding lyrical interpretation. And yes, it is important to consider his words, which I do, I'm afraid the only reference to Mama Rosa I've heard is yours. And I'm not saying that I'm the only one who understands them, I'm just asking people to open their minds to the ideas I have and am getting frustrated in the process and going off which is bad form for debate and discussion. AND my pearls before swine comment was followed by a smilie face, I was joking, something that doesn't communicate well on a message board. So whatever trouble I got in I asked for it, you're right, but I make no claims that my ideas are superior, I just want people to consider them.

[CrystalGeezer]

OK, I still don't see how on Earth that ties into the song though.

It's all very depended on taking the words 'Mama', 'grave' and 'lay' as the three most important words and interpretting them to them exclusion of everything else.
Why can't it just be a song about a mother driven to despair/suicide and her children being torn between protecting her and wanting to stay with her even after her death?

"Grave" ties "earth" to the song because graves are in the earth. They're going to run to her, come to her, and lie down beside her. They need to run to her because she's running from them, it's a chase but like the oldest chase in history and they've finally almost caught her. It's such a beautiful turn of lyrics. Then once they catch her they're going to protect her as she's protected them.

[dizzywhore_1804]

"Grave" ties "earth" to the song because graves are in the earth. [this is where I think you go off the mark] They're going to run to her, come to her, and lie down beside her. They need to run to her because she's running from them, it's a chase but like the oldest chase in history and they've finally almost caught her. It's such a beautiful turn of lyrics. Then once they catch her they're going to protect her as she's protected them.

I'd say that I'll accept the tying of 'grave' to 'earth', but I'd also say there is nothing in the song to encourage that line of thought, and certainly nothing to encourage further analysis from that basis.

You know what, I think you are totally 100% off-the-mark here but you're clearly just going to repeat yourself so I'll let you get on with it.
I think you're fitting your own agenda into someone elses' lyrics, but if you're happy with that then fair enough: go for it.

[CrystalGeezer]

I'd say that I'll accept the tying of 'grave' to 'earth', but I'd also say there is nothing in the song to encourage that line of thought, and certainly nothing to encourage further analysis from that basis.

You know what, I think you are totally 100% off-the-mark here but you're clearly just going to repeat yourself so I'll let you get on with it.
I think you're fitting your own agenda into someone elses' lyrics, but if you're happy with that then fair enough: go for it.

My agenda isn't a bad one.

[dizzywhore_1804]

My agenda isn't a bad one.

Never said it was, but try and ram it into things/places that it's not necessary just makes it easier for people to ignore it and mock it.

Symbolism is great - but try and make EVERYTHING symbolic and you bore people.

[CrystalGeezer]

His song is an answer to this song, hardly boring. Notice how she runs on stage at the end.

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[Not Right in the Head]

His song is an answer to this song, hardly boring. Notice how she runs on stage at the end.

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Holy shit--my favorite Bjork song, and a totally odd connection to make, but brilliant! Wow.

[CrystalGeezer]

Holy shit--my favorite Bjork song, and a totally odd connection to make, but brilliant! Wow.

Thank you. It is a beautiful song, especially this version of it.

[Je Suis Julie]

I think Len Brown has the most insightful take on Mama.

It seems to be very Virginia Woolf - inspired.

Still, I'd say enjoy it without overanalyzing it to death. You'll squeeze the joy out of it.

The songs stand alone, they don't need any other references.

[CrystalGeezer]

I think Len Brown has the most insightful take on Mama.

It seems to be very Virginia Woolf - inspired.

Still, I'd say enjoy it without overanalyzing it to death. You'll squeeze the joy out of it.

The songs stand alone, they don't need any other references.

That's true, but once you understand Mama, then you can understand Black Cloud (which isn't about the weather.) It's like dominos but with music. :o

[Wall of Death]

That's true, but once you understand Mama, then you can understand Black Cloud (which isn't about the weather.) It's like dominos but with music. :o

I 'get' Black Cloud lyrically except for one tiny little thing - the whole black cloud bit? Care to explain? and start my musical dominoes tumbling down?

[yesitis]

That's true, but once you understand Mama, then you can understand Black Cloud (which isn't about the weather.) It's like dominos but with music. :o

that's not entirely true though is it? it's more a case of once you've ascribed your take on mama as the truth, you can then use that to back up your opinions on another song.

do you think all the songs reflect one cohesive theme? is this a concept album?

[CrystalGeezer]

I 'get' Black Cloud lyrically except for one tiny little thing - the whole black cloud bit? Care to explain? and start my musical dominoes tumbling down?

Well, you know how he says that he sees his love everywhere but there's nothing he can do to make her (or him) his? The Black Cloud is like Bjork. Clearly he doesn't pine for Bjork, but rather a sort of mythical presence that speaks through her to him that he most likely sees in EVERYONE he meets. So this presence speaks to him, says that they want him then just as he's about to make a pass or attempt to connect, the presence runs away and the actual person is left wondering why he's making a pass and rebukes his attempt to connect leaving him eternally alone. He calls it a black cloud because it's seemingly the work of magic and follows him EVERYWHERE, hence the reference to snapping spells. Even Bjork mentions charms. One could say it's a song about mental instability, but it's not, it's an affliction that plagues Morrissey and has left him lonely for too long.

[CrystalGeezer]

do you think all the songs reflect one cohesive theme? is this a concept album?

Yes, I do.

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

that was a lot of lame arguing to skim through
but the bjork connection, i like that and hope its true
maybe someday they'll do a duet :sweet:

[CrystalGeezer]

that was a lot of lame arguing to skim through
but the bjork connection, i like that and hope its true
maybe someday they'll do a duet :sweet:

You're lame. :p But thanks for enabling at least some of my delusions. That's what friends are for. :)

[CrystalGeezer]

So, having established that he's accompanied by this black cloud which denies him love, we move onto Throwing My Arms Around Paris which involves more symbolic interpretation which I won't get into because it's pointless and seems to just make everybody upset but to make a long story short, he resolves to avoid the conflict of having to chase a ghost who's just going to run away anyway and focus on loving himself. HE is Paris, namely the Eiffel Tower, but he loves it because it accepts him, he accepts himself. Why is he forced to love himself? Because the presence has a long-standing agenda, a directive and needs to protect him from going to waste in the wrong arms. Sort of a reverse on Mama, but the ghost is doing the protecting and Morrissey's forced to suffer.

[CrystalGeezer]

No, I don't agree. The black cloud is there because he loves Nancy but there is only friendship on her side.

Oh, you mean he loves sinatra?

[Vauxhall95]

Point well made. This is a piece of pop music, not the Illuminatus. Morrissey is a talented lyricist; however on this album I feel he largely fails to deliver his usual high standard. The imagery, metaphors, and thus lyrics (IMO) have either been done better before by him or are largely transparent.

That being stated, I've certainly gotten a few vocal choruses stuck in my head, so I reckon the album has grown on me.



I'm sorry but this has to be the most bonkers reading of a Morrissey lyric that I've ever heard.

I've felt and have always felt that way way waaayy too much gets read into Morrissey's lyrics by obsessive fans who believe that Morrissey is somehow communicating in some secret language to them.

Newsflash: He isn't.

But hey if that's what the song means to you that's what it means to you, there really is no right or wrong.

But please tell me what do baliff's have to do with mother earth? Oh let me guess they are governments of the world, and big corporations that pollute the earth regardless of environmental laws.

It reminds me of Nostrodamus, if you really want to, you can read into it what you want, and so too with Morrissey.

But I'll put big bucks on this NOT being Morrissey's eco anthem.

If you want a good one try Dan le Sac and Scrooobius Pip's 'Letter to God.'

[yesitis]

Point well made. This is a piece of pop music, not the Illuminatus.

are you referencing robert anton wilson's illuminatus trilogy? if so, i love you.

[Vauxhall95]

are you referencing robert anton wilson's illuminatus trilogy? if so, i love you.

Yep.

P.S. The feeling is mutual...:)

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

Oh, you mean he loves sinatra?
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/gulrober/her/symbols/mozzy%20babie/37_1_b.jpg
i think they'd make a gr8 couple :guitar:

[dizzywhore_1804]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/gulrober/her/symbols/mozzy%20babie/37_1_b.jpg
i think they'd make a gr8 couple :guitar:

...and didn't she do a cover of 'Let Me Kiss You', and if she covered a Morrissey song that must mean they both want to be UNDER covers :eek:

Oh my Lord, Morrissey's entire career has been a build up to him asking Nancy Sinatra out on a date!! :cool:

[CrystalGeezer]

:doh: Oh brother.

The album is about himself. It's an ode to his most favorite muse, himself.

[Vauxhall95]

That's true, but once you understand Mama, then you can understand Black Cloud (which isn't about the weather.) It's like dominos but with music. :o

Hasn't Billy Bragg used the "little black cloud in a dress" line before? Again, what is so remarkable about "Black Cloud?" I'm writing lyrically and musically? It seems b-side material at best.:confused:

[CrystalGeezer]

You are doing it again!

Is this all that you can come up with?

Please consult your menstrual blood for clarity.

Paris was, by the way, written for me, so that I have a nice song to sing. Unfortunatly he got the city wrong.

I guess my menstrual blood was wondering why everyone is so eager to insert pieces of gossip they've heard into the fabric of his album? Why does a song have to be about Nancy Sinatra or Johnny Marr or whatever? Because there's a picture of them posing for a photo together? I suppose you could turn this around and say "Why does a song have to be about the planets?" Well, it doesn't. But I reference a universal theme of symbolism that stems back ages to back up my theories, not a single photograph and half a theory based on an interview from 10 years ago. Now, as for a song being made for you to sing, THAT is absolutely correct. Nailed it. I'm sure you can link your city to Paris somehow. ;) It's EASY to stretch and make a connection work. :p

[CrystalGeezer]

But yes, I think "Black Cloud" is about Nancy Sinatra.

I’d like to thank you for the reference to Nancy Sinatra, silke, who’s presence shows up in the next song, All You Need is Me. In the video (which for reasons I can hardly fathom is ENABLED for viewing) we find Morrissey singing that all we need is him. He wears a blue sweater with holes in it because his baby has shot him down. So, all we need is him, but not just him, the feminine him (GIRLS WANTED) who has the power to shoot him down and transform him from his natural masculine state into a different sort of receptive state of femininity that so many have confused with him being effeminate and gay, when really he’s channeling his inner lady. It’s very complicated, but it’s what sets apart Morrissey from others. For instance, in this frame from the video,

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3513/3180679276_522b488985_o.jpg
Morrissey uses his tambourine, his crown so to speak, to frame the man at the KEY broad. Did he do this on purpose? Probably not. But being Morrissey as feminine, this is his song saying that he is the key, which is why all we need is him. All we need is love too, a similar video in the respect that it is happy and celebratory of love, but in a studio completely, not walking outside the studio, where Morrissey takes us. Hey! Lookie there at the end, that darned mother earth again. She’s so sneaky.

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[yesitis]

nutty

[CrystalGeezer]

nutty

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:D:D:D (Actually, I kind of want you to be my friend even though I seem kind of cuckoo. :o)

[yesitis]

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:D:D:D (Actually, I kind of want you to be my friend even though I seem kind of cuckoo. :o)


yeah, i'll be your friend. so long as you don't try to make a suit out of my skin.

[CrystalGeezer]

yeah, i'll be your friend. so long as you don't try to make a suit out of my skin.

If you're not an orphaned child from Africa you'll be fine. :p

[CrystalGeezer]

Now, before you start saying "You expect me to believe that Morrissey holding a tambourine up framing a key board player is a sign? That's a coincidence!" Do you really think it's a coincidence that the earth is magically placed a certain distance from the sun which allows us to inhabit this planet, not making it too hot or too cold? No, that's the work of God, or some "thing" that makes such decisions, take your pick and insert your own deity into the equation. My point is that is big G can make that happen, what makes you think he can't jump into his son and have him point out all the right things through his body, as a representative of Him. Well he can and he does. However, I think for the sake of my self and for the sake of Morrissey, I'll shut up, because the more I talk about it, the more it'll make sense and the less chance he has to live a normal life, because that's all he wants, to be normal. He's spent his whole life being weird, it's time for him to be normal for a change. So for the record I am insane and what I'm talking about is all very crazy and the work of delusional thinking because I'm a diagnosed schizophrenic and not on my meds at the moment. :) But if you're wondering the rest of the album is equally awesome and the connections amazing because Morrissey is amazing. I'm assuming this thread will die soon but nothing or nobody else will. Got it? :o Good.

[yesitis]

so moz is jesus?

[CrystalGeezer]

so moz is jesus?

No. He's just a signer.

[yesitis]

No. He's just a signer.

he converses with the deaf?

[CrystalGeezer]

he converses with the deaf?

Woops, I meant singer. Although he may do that too, there's no telling what he was doing in the Maladjusted years.

[ThePersonUnderneath]

CrystalGeezer, mate. You're the best.

[ellay mort]

firstly, wow there is a lot of nonsense being spoken on this thread, hah.





there doesn't seem to be any other themes in the album ...Which wouldn't be a problem for me, as it is a HUGE subject, except Morrissey has dealt with this theme countless times before and done it much more eloquent way.
Much of the album deals with themes much better expressed in previous albums.




this is my opinion as well.

i worry a lot about self parody.

relaying the same ideas that you've been stereotyped for for years, in a way that truly is boring and cringey?? he's better than that. i am not bored of the themes, i just want them to be done well- ex: My Dearest Love.

'nobody wants myyy love, nobody neeeeeds my love' on repeat at the end of a single, AT THIS POINT in his career is only SELF PARODY, and is cringey. he shouldn't be allowed to say things like that at this point. i know he is lyrically brilliant and that's what makes it frustrating, i want to SEE it- i want him to kick every stereotype or surpass it with such wit and brilliance that they become moot points.

i have to say though, the vocal melodies on this album sorely kick the ass of ROTT and are very satisfying. unfortunately for me, lyrics hold a lot of weight in my enjoyment of music though. i still miss quarry.

[Vauxhall95]

I have to agree. I've gotten some of these vocal melodies stuck in my head. They are catchy, but the songs themselves lyrically are either tired and cliches of another far better Morrissey song.


'nobody wants myyy love, nobody neeeeeds my love' on repeat at the end of a single, AT THIS POINT in his career is only SELF PARODY, and is cringey. he shouldn't be allowed to say things like that at this point. i know he is lyrically brilliant and that's what makes it frustrating, i want to SEE it- i want him to kick every stereotype or surpass it with such wit and brilliance that they become moot points.

i have to say though, the vocal melodies on this album sorely kick the ass of ROTT and are very satisfying. unfortunately for me, lyrics hold a lot of weight in my enjoyment of music though. i still miss quarry.

[Vauxhall95]

Dear God please help me. I'm sorry I created this thread!

"Do you really think it's a coincidence that the earth is magically placed a certain distance from the sun which allows us to inhabit this planet, not making it too hot or too cold? No, that's the work of God, or some "thing" that makes such decisions, take your pick and insert your own deity into the equation."

I'm afraid to ask how this pertains to the lyrical depth on Years of Refusal?! There's nothing magical about it. It's called SCIENCE. Please tell me you're not a proponent of "moronic design?"


Now, before you start saying "You expect me to believe that Morrissey holding a tambourine up framing a key board player is a sign? That's a coincidence!" Do you really think it's a coincidence that the earth is magically placed a certain distance from the sun which allows us to inhabit this planet, not making it too hot or too cold? No, that's the work of God, or some "thing" that makes such decisions, take your pick and insert your own deity into the equation. My point is that is big G can make that happen, what makes you think he can't jump into his son and have him point out all the right things through his body, as a representative of Him. Well he can and he does. However, I think for the sake of my self and for the sake of Morrissey, I'll shut up, because the more I talk about it, the more it'll make sense and the less chance he has to live a normal life, because that's all he wants, to be normal. He's spent his whole life being weird, it's time for him to be normal for a change. So for the record I am insane and what I'm talking about is all very crazy and the work of delusional thinking because I'm a diagnosed schizophrenic and not on my meds at the moment. :) But if you're wondering the rest of the album is equally awesome and the connections amazing because Morrissey is amazing. I'm assuming this thread will die soon but nothing or nobody else will. Got it? :o Good.

[CrystalGeezer]

Dear God please help me. I'm sorry I created this thread!

"Do you really think it's a coincidence that the earth is magically placed a certain distance from the sun which allows us to inhabit this planet, not making it too hot or too cold? No, that's the work of God, or some "thing" that makes such decisions, take your pick and insert your own deity into the equation."

I'm afraid to ask how this pertains to the lyrical depth on Years of Refusal?! There's nothing magical about it. It's called SCIENCE. Please tell me you're not a proponent of "moronic design?"

I love morons! :p Here's some more. The link to the song is the music, the lyrics are too personal to get into, but swords are hammered. That's a plausible stretch? :)

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When Last I spoke to Carol is about en eternal duel. Carol is the ol’ Car, or the old American. Morrissey is the bride here proving that he has the appropriate sword, resurrecting from defeat and lopping off her crown and claiming it as his own. He then crosses her off his list, but her honorable death remains in her heart. It’s really quite a beautiful dance as Tarantino displays it. WLISTC could be interpreted as REALISTIC, but i think it’s more along the lines of WEILDING THE STICK, what both the bride and the sphynx atop the Wheel of Fortune do as they drive toward their goal, in the Brides case, union with her stolen daughter.

I can haz meds now?

[Vauxhall95]

If we had no morons, there'd be no government, journalists, or IRS agents. Wow, completely by accident, I've just stepped into the mind of Morrissey!

And to answer your question: yes, by all means, get on a stable medication now.;) It's worked wonders for me...:confused:


I love morons! :p Here's some more. The link to the song is the music, the lyrics are too personal to get into, but swords are hammered. That's a plausible stretch? :)

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When Last I spoke to Carol is about en eternal duel. Carol is the ol’ Car, or the old American. Morrissey is the bride here proving that he has the appropriate sword, resurrecting from defeat and lopping off her crown and claiming it as his own. He then crosses her off his list, but her honorable death remains in her heart. It’s really quite a beautiful dance as Tarantino displays it. WLISTC could be interpreted as REALISTIC, but i think it’s more along the lines of WEILDING THE STICK, what both the bride and the sphynx atop the Wheel of Fortune do as they drive toward their goal, in the Brides case, union with her stolen daughter.

I can haz meds now?

[CrystalGeezer]

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Here’s an excellent mirror to THPGU. Notice how Beth Gibbons is smoking (moz king) during the entire song as she laments the dark nature of wasting time by seeing shadows cast by the moon instead of truth as reflected by the sunlight. It’s an ode to the frustration associated with compiling truth based on cosmic rumor and this video is the compliment to THPGU as indicated by the wailing at the end of the song as opposed to Kristeen’s wailing at the beginning. In another mirror of this same sentiment is The Hexx (which is exactly what is is whcih is why Morrissey trusts hardly anyone) by Pavement. Note the upsidedown tear drop on the speakerstand, a massive symbol of The Moon as the truth is going in the wrong direction giving power to the scary psyche of fears and frustration. Morrissey’s the capistrano swallow who for so long had no home, but definitely the radar to return to this mythical home that he so desperately wanted to make real. So he grows up and learns, but it’s not an easy road by any stretch of the imagination. The good news for his is that “someone” does exist. :)

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[Bluebirds]

I think the lyrics are dealing with the usual mortality and lovelorn topics without the ironic wit. Is he taking the piss or what?:)

One must say his singing voice is strong, more like a Vegas crooner but lyrics like rhyming day with say and other expected couplets... the music in places is strong (Alain Whyte mainly) but theres something lacking, as has been the way since the mid 90s

I think the next great Morrissey LP will be when his dear old mother passes this mortal coil. Unfortunately

[anon x]

I think the next great Morrissey LP will be when his dear old mother passes this mortal coil. Unfortunately

You could be right with that.:(

[CrystalGeezer]

Makes more sense, because she drowned herself in the river.

Morrissey's a huge fan of Anne.

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[nugz]

Morrissey's a huge fan of Anne.

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anne of green gables. wow.

[Vauxhall95]

Hey Crystal -

The Stereogum review on the main page is a good overall review of the album. It pretty much surmises my feelings towards it.

Vaux:)

[CrystalGeezer]

Hey Crystal -

The Stereogum review on the main page is a good overall review of the album. It pretty much surmises my feelings towards it.

Vaux:)

I'll go check it out.

+++

That's a very fair review. But still, the lyrics are far from shallow. :)

[Vauxhall95]

I'll go check it out.

+++

That's a very fair review. But still, the lyrics are far from shallow. :)

I'm a raging reactionary. Honestly, when I hear a new Morrissey tune, I should stay away from the forum for at least a month. I'd get myself in far less trouble.:)

I'm still feeling pretty much the same towards the album. I wish I could like it more... Still and all, I'm clinging to the b-sides. There seem to be a raft of them, and there are some intriguing song titles.

[Je Suis Julie]

Makes more sense, because she drowned herself in the river.

That, and the whole Shakespeare's Sister thing.....
An ode to women (or artists of any gender) who were never allowed to be free due to social / political / familial restraints.

Brown also notes the title of one of Pasolini's films La Donna del fiume (Woman of the River) and then there is Mamma Roma. (I haven't seen either film).

It's all just fun conjecture. It probably has nothing to do with any of the above :p

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

I'm listening to bootlegs from live shows, but apparently the song hasn't changed in the final studio version, correct?

I don't know why, but since first hearing it, I've pictured a widow whose mortgage is being foreclosed or who cannot pay her rent, leaving her and her children homeless. Orphaning them at least gives them a home in a workhouse. It's very Dickensian. Back when I heard it live, over a year ago, the mortgage crisis was just a whisper on the wind.

But, Julie, you are raising some interesting possible influences or themes... going to have another listen and see what jumps out at me.

In the last few days, I am struck by how I focus on the literary side of the songs. This might be because I only have the lyrics for the six new songs (no, I'm not wearing a halo, they are currently on backorder.) There might be another reason. We'll see.

[Maurice E]

well, I'm as critical as anyone about modern-day Moz lyrics but have just looked up Black Cloud and am pretty impressed (haven't heard the song yet).
some really nice, subtle rhymes. 'I can please you or I can freeze you (out)'. plus the use of the wonderful verb 'to woo'.
brilliant. go Moz!

The one I love
is standing near
the one I love
is everywhere
I can woo you
I can amuse you
but there is nothing I can do to make you mine
black cloud, black cloud
The one I love
roosts in the mind
can snap this spell
or, increase hell
I can chase you
and I can catch you
but there is nothing I can do to make you mine
black cloud, black cloud
oh, black cloud
oh, black cloud
I play the game of Favorites now
I can I must I will I do
I can please you
or, I can freeze you out
but there is nothing I can do to make you mine
Black cloud, black cloud, black cloud
I can choke myself to please you
and I can sink much lower than usual
but there's nothing I can do
to make you mine

[dizzywhore_1804]

I don't know why, but since first hearing it, I've pictured a widow whose mortgage is being foreclosed or who cannot pay her rent, leaving her and her children homeless. Orphaning them at least gives them a home in a workhouse. It's very Dickensian. Back when I heard it live, over a year ago, the mortgage crisis was just a whisper on the wind.

This was always what I imagined when I heard it, there were quite a few stories in the UK press about people being hounded by banks and moneylenders to the point they killed themselves, I believe there was also a very, very touching documentary about it too.

[Vauxhall95]

well, I'm as critical as anyone about modern-day Moz lyrics but have just looked up Black Cloud and am pretty impressed (haven't heard the song yet).
some really nice, subtle rhymes. 'I can please you or I can freeze you (out)'. plus the use of the wonderful verb 'to woo'.
brilliant. go Moz!

The one I love
is standing near
the one I love
is everywhere
I can woo you
I can amuse you
but there is nothing I can do to make you mine
black cloud, black cloud
The one I love
roosts in the mind
can snap this spell
or, increase hell
I can chase you
and I can catch you
but there is nothing I can do to make you mine
black cloud, black cloud
oh, black cloud
oh, black cloud
I play the game of Favorites now
I can I must I will I do
I can please you
or, I can freeze you out
but there is nothing I can do to make you mine
Black cloud, black cloud, black cloud
I can choke myself to please you
and I can sink much lower than usual
but there's nothing I can do
to make you mine

To me the bolded lyrics are the most emotionally impactful of the sound. But honestly, don't you think we've heard all this before, and better? Regardless, I'm more disappointed with the under utilization of Jeff Beck. If you're going to bring in a flash guitar player, why castrate his output? Would it have killed Moz to break formula and include a guitar solo instead of the usual chord changes?

[Vauxhall95]

After listening to Morrissey's new album for this past month, my opinion to some degree has changed. I stand by my assertion the album (and now b-sides) are lyrical lacking the depth and superiority of Morrissey's earlier work. My current thinking on YOR is it is a well crafted pop album. Nothing more, nothing less. It is upsetting to me that the lyrical bridge which once separated Morrissey from his musical peers was once "an ancient ocean wide" is now melting faster than the polar ice cap. But I am he is recording and any Morrissey is better than none.

To those listening mainly for the hooks and music, this is easily the most accessible Morrissey album ever. It should sell and chart well. It's good pop music and ranks right up there with Pink and other artists of that ilk.

As for me, I've found I've "run through" this album quicker then anything Morrissey has ever released. I'm very much looking forward to the remastered and re-released "South Grammar," which should feature some intriguing new songs.

[Mars_Rover]

It's not about his actual mum. Thanks for that.

But I think the narrative of the song is more or less literal, although used to explore a number of ideas. I think the subject of the song is an interesting continuation of a theme that's persisted throughout his work - it instantly reminded me of 'Mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head.' There's always been an association between Mother and Suffocation/Death ('Smother me mother'), hated and embraced. Remember he always 'ran back to Ma' on all his albums.

People have complained about a lack of empathy but this lyric is an expression of really powerful love and sympathy for someone who has been driven to exhaustion by a world unsuited to them (see Oscar Wilde, James Dean) but the song's narrator feels an inescapable, suffocating affinity with, and a rash, childish-adolescant, protective, passionate Hand-in-Glove love for ('I will slit their throats for you'). I think the end of the song is a fine example of that old Morrissey trick of making what is intensely personal, universal, and creating that 'Shoplifers of the World' unity, seige-mentality (We're gonna run to you, we're gonna come to you) while at the same time making the filial, almost sexual: 'We're gonna lie down beside you Mama.'

As a whole, it seems like a half-remembered expression of a child's emotions, which is illustrated in the wording of the title, the past tense and the use of the diminutive 'Mama', but tinged with an acquired bitterness at the 'lonely' world he has experienced 'here without you', berating the 'pigs in grey suits' ('policewomen, policemen, silly women, taxmen'), perhaps expressing a projected anger for an absent yet idolised mother figure.

It's a fucking great song.

Beautifully written analysis there, very well done

[Vauxhall95]

Beautifully written analysis there, very well done

One song does not an album make.

[joe frady]

Just spent 3 hours playing the album very loud for the first time (abstained from the dl) and it is, in my opinion, and to quote, "utterly brilliant". It's too early in the process to elucidate in words why it is so. That will come later, after living with it for a while. But the point is, after 3 hours I am tingling with excitement, adrenalin and anticipation at the thought of living with it for a while. Whereas with some previous albums, at the same initial stage, I was confused, wary and nervous ('Maladjusted, 'Quarry' to name 2). But then I've grown to LUV both of those, so......?
But just to say one thing that I felt quite pointedly during 'It's Not Your Birthday Anymore' regarding lyrical depth. I don't know what it says about me or my appreciation of lyrical art (and right now I don't actually care) but I would take just that one closing minute long vocalised 'climax' to 'Birthday' over a hundred 'well Caligula would have blushed's, etc, any day of the week.
Or as King Leer put it perfectly elsewhere regarding the words on 'Years of Refusal' ~ " Don't read them, don't quote them, just listen to the man sing them and you will be sated. "
It may indeed be the case that Morrissey, now, is a greater vocalist than lyricist. After listening to 'Years of Refusal' I can't say that I have a problem with that.
~ Sated on Saturday :)

[Je Suis Julie]

Just spent 3 hours playing the album very loud for the first time (abstained from the dl) and it is, in my opinion, and to quote, "utterly brilliant". It's too early in the process to elucidate in words why it is so. That will come later, after living with it for a while. But the point is, after 3 hours I am tingling with excitement, adrenalin and anticipation at the thought of living with it for a while. Whereas with some previous albums, at the same initial stage, I was confused, wary and nervous ('Maladjusted, 'Quarry' to name 2). But then I've grown to LUV both of those, so......?
But just to say one thing that I felt quite pointedly during 'It's Not Your Birthday Anymore' regarding lyrical depth. I don't know what it says about me or my appreciation of lyrical art (and right now I don't actually care) but I would take just that one closing minute long vocalised 'climax' to 'Birthday' over a hundred 'well Caligula would have blushed's, etc, any day of the week.
Or as King Leer put it perfectly elsewhere regarding the words on 'Years of Refusal' ~ " Don't read them, don't quote them, just listen to the man sing them and you will be sated. "
It may indeed be the case that Morrissey, now, is a greater vocalist than lyricist. After listening to 'Years of Refusal' I can't say that I have a problem with that.
~ Sated on Saturday :)

Beautiful review!

I still think it's his best album ever, and it's getting even better with repeated listening.

[joe frady]

Beautiful review!

I still think it's his best album ever, and it's getting even better with repeated listening.

Thank you.
Oh well, in that case, I better just have another quick (7) goes.........:thumb:

[zacksfansite]

Ophelia, duh

Haha.
Nice.
In someway that works.



'nobody wants myyy love, nobody neeeeeds my love' on repeat at the end of a single, AT THIS POINT in his career is only SELF PARODY, and is cringey. he shouldn't be allowed to say things like that at this point. i know he is lyrically brilliant and that's what makes it frustrating, i want to SEE it- i want him to kick every stereotype or surpass it with such wit and brilliance that they become moot points.

Sadly true.
It seems it's usually the case when a lot of artists come back after a long gap.
Doubt they're any NIN fans here, but Trent's a perfect example.



To those listening mainly for the hooks and music, this is easily the most accessible Morrissey album ever. It should sell and chart well. It's good pop music and ranks right up there with Pink and other artists of that ilk.

It seems this is the case.
The word accessible scares me; It seems to be ominous of a Morrissey out of touch with his old wit and other peccadilloes.
Well, that is if it's even an omen anymore.

In my own opinion I think this is kind of like Southpaw.
It's "the band's album".
It's easily debatable.
The music does seem to outrank Morrissey at times but when the music isn't top-notch (if you can call it that) Morrissey saves it.

Black Cloud does give me a vitriolic feeling after a listen to it.
That guitar solo could have saved it.

These songs I think are obviously superior:

Something Is Squeezing My Skull (Probably best on the record.)
Mama Lay Softly On The Riverbed (Well, maybe this is the best. :p)
When Last I Spoke To Carol
It's Not Your Birthday Anymore (I love the wailing. :))

I think those four are examples of when Morrissey and the band connect almost perfectly.

[zacksfansite]

All You Need is Me and That's How People Grow Up are excellent pops tunes as well.

I like to consider those as stand alone singles / additions to the new best of album however.