What would have made "Ringleader" one of his best albums?

[!Viva Hate!]

I already think it is one of his best albums behind Bona Drag, Viva Hate, and Vauxhall & I...

But in my opinion, and although this may prove to be another pointless thread, I think what made this album suffer was the list of the final tracks as far as what order they were put in and what he chose to be b-sides.

As you all know the current track list is this:

I Will See You In Far Off Places
Dear God Please Help Me
You Have Killed Me
The Youngest Was The Most Loved
In The Future When All's Well
The Father Who Must Be Killed
Life Is A Pigsty
I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now
On The Streets I Ran
To Me You Are A Work Of Art
I Just Want To See The Boy Happy
At Last I Am Born

Morrissey seemed to stick everything that he thought would be a future single all one right after another. Which in my opinion was a bad choice. My solution would have been this...change the tracks around and take out a few of the lagging ones and replace them with some of the b-sides.

My final track list for Ringleader would have been this if I had to stick to the 12 track formula:

Dear God Please Help Me
Christian Dior
I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now
If You Don't Like Me, Don't Look At Me
The Father Who Must Be Killed
The Youngest Was The Most Loved
I Just Want To See The Boy Happy
In The Future When All's Well
Good Looking Man About Town
You Have Killed Me
Ganglord
Life Is A Pigsty

Thus leaving "At Last I Am Born", "On The Streets I Ran", "To Me You Are A Work Of Art", and "I Will See You In Far Off Places" to go with the other b-sides "I Knew I Was Next", "Human Being", and "A Song From Under The Floorboards". I myself would have put "A Song From Under The Floorboards" on ROTT but I just couldn't bear to put a cover song on a Morrissey album. And I am sure most people would say that I should have left "I Will See You In Far Off Places" on and taken "Christian Dior" off...but, I just like "Christian Dior" a lot better because "I Will See You..." just sounds very generic to me.

Anyway...I like to ramble...can you tell?

[Sir Alec]

I think if he stopped making songs with a similar sound he'd get higher ratings. I think he should do an album of all glam rock and hard rock songs that kicks the shit out of both Your Arsenal and Southpaw Grammer. Or he could go back to the softer sound. I don't know which would be better, but one of the two could save him.

[hatfull]

I do like ROTT, but I do understand what you mean to an extent about the running order. However, I think that even the songs which did not initially grab me may eventually turn into my favourites. And I would have left on 'To Me You Are a Work of Art' as I really love it!!!
You never know, maybe the next album will go back to being rock. That would be so cool, but as long as there is a next album, I'll be a happy bunny!

[mspendl828]

I can't really complain about Ringleader. In my opinion it's excellent. However, Ganglord instead of I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now would be nice, if not essential.

[Stitchell]

I think that Morrissey should forget about the singles market and leave the 'jangly-obviously-only-on as-a-single' tracks off the albums. I admire the effort Morrissey puts into his singles but I think his fans would prefer a more coherent album. On a number of albums, the singles have been the weaker tracks while better material is found on b-sides

[matto]

I think if he stopped making songs with a similar sound he'd get higher ratings. I think he should do an album of all glam rock and hard rock songs that kicks the shit out of both Your Arsenal and Southpaw Grammer. Or he could go back to the softer sound. I don't know which would be better, but one of the two could save him.

hell, i think he could get away with a surf rock record. and i wish he would

[!Viva Hate!]

I can't really complain about Ringleader. In my opinion it's excellent. However, Ganglord instead of I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now would be nice, if not essential.

Yes...Ganglord should have been on the album. Ganglord is FAR better than any other song on the album with the possible exception of Life Is A Pigsty.

Not to mention Children In Pieces sounds like one of the best songs Morrissey has put out in a long time...depending on what lyrics he puts to it of course.

I have never been more excited over a song than I am Children In Pieces.

[Danny]

I don't think Ganglord fit's into the themes of the album really which is more about personal relationships than political comment.

Personally I find the one thing that makes ROTT for me is it's running order. I think it works really well.

[dazzak]

Better songs?

The bottom line for me is that there have only been two brilliant songs produced during the Ringleader era ("Dear God, Please Help Me" and "Life Is A Pigsty) and only in producing more songs like this could the album have been great. You can mess with the fairly irrelevant tracklisting and rubbish B-sides all you want, it's quality that is the issue.

[!Viva Hate!]

Better songs?

The bottom line for me is that there have only been two brilliant songs produced during the Ringleader era ("Dear God, Please Help Me" and "Life Is A Pigsty) and only in producing more songs like this could the album have been great. You can mess with the fairly irrelevant tracklisting and rubbish B-sides all you want, it's quality that is the issue.

Well, I certainly wouldn't call Ganglord rubbish...

[Danielledelu]

Id have to say, it would have made a already awesome album better if he had not used general chours's, like repeating the chours, I hate that. It sounded ok though, but I was like, this is new.

[Puddle]

Id have to say, it would have made a already awesome album better if he had not used general chours's, like repeating the chours, I hate that. It sounded ok though, but I was like, this is new.

i was going to say the something. too much repeating of lines. on teh album and in the b sides. but i would add it's not just the chorus. Take Ganglord for example, right from the get go he sings a line and repeats it. it's very lazy and greatly bringing down his work (except for a few exceptions).

I would think that singing his classics and brilliant covers would have him notice his current laziness to song writing. i wish more critics wrote this at the time of ROTT so morrissey would get the point. but how can he not know this?

it may just be a stylistic choice...here's hoping it will end NOW.

[!Viva Hate!]

i was going to say the something. too much repeating of lines. on teh album and in the b sides. but i would add it's not just the chorus. Take Ganglord for example, right from the get go he sings a line and repeats it. it's very lazy and greatly bringing down his work (except for a few exceptions).

I would think that singing his classics and brilliant covers would have him notice his current laziness to song writing. i wish more critics wrote this at the time of ROTT so morrissey would get the point. but how can he not know this?

it may just be a stylistic choice...here's hoping it will end NOW.

It may all end tomorrow or it could go on forever...

[Puddle]

It may all end tomorrow or it could go on forever...

:rolleyes: and you are timeless...

[!Viva Hate!]

:rolleyes: and you are timeless...

I thought it was rather funny myself...I giggled all the while of typing it.

[dazzak]

Well, I certainly wouldn't call Ganglord rubbish...
I, and most sane people I know, would call it average at best.

[Midnight]

I think Ganglord would have made a good album track - it is powerful and has a strong rock sound, and probably would have gone well next to the likes of You Have Killed Me and I Will See You In Far Off Places. I prefer it to several tracks on ROTT.

For me, one of the biggest annoyances I have with the album is the children's choir - their voices grate on my ears and I feel they were overused to a degree, so I wouldn't miss the songs where they are featured very much. I wouldn't mind if The Father Who Must Be Killed had been a b-side, and the same goes for At Last I Am Born as well. Since there's a certain narrative running through the album the absence of those might have messed with the order somewhat though. Anyway, for me the presence of stunning songs like Life is a Pigsty and I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now makes the album good enough for me.

[Jones]

It is one of his best albums, if not his best.

[dazzak]

It is one of his best albums, if not his best.
You crazy.

[M-in-Oz]

I too think it is 'one of his best'. It gets better with each listen. 'On the Streets..." and "At Last I am Born" are two of my favourites and i would leave them on the tracklisting. i think the weaker songs would be 'Work of Art" and "I Want To See the Boy Happy."

[Chartres]

Think that you should have the trumpets in "I'll Never Be..." as in the live version but a bit more as well, plus I think it should be the opener followed by "Dear God Please help Me".

"To Me You Are..." needs real lyrics and "On the Streets I ran" can be totally forgotten, as well as "IN The Future" and "At Last I Am Born". I really agree with Sir Alec's propotion in the begining of the thread, I do.

[lilybett]

I think ROTT was brilliant.

BUT I think Ganglord should have been included. And the cover of Human Being (shuddup I loved it).

And Dear God, Please Help Me and At Last I Am Born should have been taken off.

Oh, but anyway. Oh! ROTT introduced us to Life Is A Pigsty. One of the best things he's ever done. So :)

[!Viva Hate!]

I, and most sane people I know, would call it average at best.


Since when do they allow you people to use computers up there at Belleview?

[Lost]

I Will See You In Far Off Places
Dear God Please Help Me
You Have Killed Me
If You Don't Like Me Don't look at Me
Human Being
Christian Dior
Life Is A Pigsty
I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now
On The Streets I Ran
To Me You Are A Work Of Art
I Just Want To See The Boy Happy
Ganglord


Now that IS a good album!!!!!!! :D

[suspendedindusk]

I think Ringleader is possibly his best album, it's just brilliant. But you are right in that the order of the tracks was exactly ideal..

[Rupert]

Ringleader is his best without a doubt.

[!Viva Hate!]

^ Some people beg to differ...

[AHappyRocket]

Not having "Dear God" "Father" "Streets" "Boy Happy" and "At Last.." would have helped I suppose. From one of popular music's all time greats, just nowhere near good enough.

Sorry I can't comment on the B-Sides - after being so disappointed with ROTT I haven't bought any more of last year's output.

For whatever reason, Morrissey merely went through the motions last year with the album and the live shows.

.......cue bucketloads of abuse for not showing blind devotion....

[!Viva Hate!]

You should at least download the b-sides...we've got em here somewhere...in the DL section...

Trust me, the B-sides, with the exception of "I Knew I Was Next" written by that talentless hack Jesse Tobias, are all FAR superior than anything on the album...

[helmoz]

the children's choir got a bit irritating at times... perhaps keep them on "the father who must be killed" but not on any other songs.

[!Viva Hate!]

Yes...I concur...I think the album could have done without any Tobias songs with the exception of You Have Killed Me and If You Don't Like Me...

[Roma De Moz]

With the exception of tracks such as Dear God and Pigsty, the autobiographical focus of the lyrics was a distraction for me. Of course, Morrissey has always written personal, self reflective lyrics, but before Ringleader he did so in such a way that it left the songs open to interpretation and varied understandings. Future, Hero, At Last I Am Born, Work Of Art and You Have Killed Me, while being good songs, seem somewhat one dimensional to me in terms of writing, and don't offer up the engrossing possibilities that the likes of Quarry and other back-catalogue material does.

Morrissey can write songs that feel at once personal and universal, but I didn't feel it as strongly on this record. Therefore, Morrissey should move away from the autobiographical somewhat, and make more songs in the vein of Lifeguard Sleeping, Girl Drowning: personal, yet mystifying and layered with different subtexts.

[!Viva Hate!]

^ as long as it's written and played by someone OTHER than Jesse Tobias!

[Roma De Moz]

^ as long as it's written and played by someone OTHER than Jesse Tobias!

Ok, please can you kindly stop with this tangent. You don't like Jesse Tobias as musician and co-writer, so what? Your as free as anyone to dislike his work, but the fact is, he has only been on board for one record, and even then, it's not as if he wasn't being directed by other band mates and producers.

Morrissey and Visconti's vision of what they wanted the album to sound like dictated and directed Jesse's craftsmanship, even more so than it did with the rest of the band because he is now Moz's co-writer.

[boyvoyeur]

What would have made "Ringleader" one of his best albums?

if it had sounded like "vauxhall and i"

[!Viva Hate!]

Ok, please can you kindly stop with this tangent. You don't like Jesse Tobias as musician and co-writer, so what? Your as free as anyone to dislike his work, but the fact is, he has only been on board for one record, and even then, it's not as if he wasn't being directed by other band mates and producers.

Morrissey and Visconti's vision of what they wanted the album to sound like dictated and directed Jesse's craftsmanship, even more so than it did with the rest of the band because he is now Moz's co-writer.

Sorry, but I created this thread which makes me the Hitler of it...

[MozIsGod]

Trust me, the B-sides, with the exception of "I Knew I Was Next" written by that talentless hack Jesse Tobias, are all FAR superior than anything on the album...

Hey! 'I Knew I Was Next' was the best b-side from that single. And it could have easily replaced 'On The Streets I Ran', don't ya think? ;)

I'm glad that you like at least one of Jesse's songs...'If You Don't Like Me...'. :)

[!Viva Hate!]

I only like it because of Morrissey's echo'ed belting of the words "that's all"...it is so beautiful!

[thewarroom]

I Will See You In Far Off Places
Dear God Please Help Me
You Have Killed Me
If You Don't Like Me Don't look at Me
Human Being
Christian Dior
Life Is A Pigsty
I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now
On The Streets I Ran
To Me You Are A Work Of Art
I Just Want To See The Boy Happy
Ganglord


Now that IS a good album!!!!!!! :D

Yes, it certainly is! Though I would take out Dear God and reinsert The Youngest, that is a great tracklist! :cool:

[!Viva Hate!]

^Mine is better!

[!Viva Hate!]

Actually...my opinion has changed...Boz was right...this would have been better had it been a double album!

See...Boz knows...Boz knows...

[HIM]

twelve different songs would've made it better... ...probably.

[hatfull]

twelve different songs would've made it better... ...probably.
Hubby!!!! was wondering where you were. Now, let's not argue over ROTT again please...

[!Viva Hate!]

Maybe...

[!Viva Hate!]

Hubby!!!! was wondering where you were. Now, let's not argue over ROTT again please...

She's cheating on you for a hoseful of oatmeal HIM! Just thought you should hear it from me...

[HIM]

She's cheating on you for a hoseful of oatmeal HIM! Just thought you should hear it from me...

well she is a bit erm... odd

...but i kinda like that

[!Viva Hate!]

But she wants YOU to eat the overflow! :eek:

[hatfull]

well she is a bit erm... odd

...but i kinda like that
Odd? I prefer 'quirky' or 'eclectric' (not that I can spell it)

[!Viva Hate!]

Odd? I prefer 'quirky' or 'eclectric' (not that I can spell it)
Yeah...you butchered it all to Hell...

[hatfull]

Yeah...you butchered it all to Hell...
Thank God for spell check on essays, that's all i have to say! (wish you could use it on the forum though, can't find my dictionary)

[!Viva Hate!]

Did you mean to spell "eccentric"?

[Hellie]

But it WAS one of his best...

[!Viva Hate!]

But it WAS one of his best...
YOUR opinion...not everyone else's...

[hatfull]

No. Eclectic. Ir means mixing styles from various ideas and sources

[!Viva Hate!]

No. Eclectic. Ir means mixing styles from various ideas and sources
Now you're spelling simple words wrong! :eek:

[hatfull]

Now you're spelling simple words wrong! :eek:
I am dyslex. And clumsy...

[!Viva Hate!]

I am dyslex. And clumsy...
What is dyslex???

[hatfull]

What is dyslex???
Dyslexic. I can't even type it now, oh God...

[!Viva Hate!]

I didn't want to come out and say you spelled it wrong...it seemed even too cruel for me...:o

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

if every copy came with
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/gulrober/me/weapons/ccc.jpg

[!Viva Hate!]

Crack...

[Practising Troublemaker]

In my opinion ROTT is fantastic and one of his best yet. I would only make a couple of changes to the track list by taking out perhaps At Last I Am Born and replacing it with Ganglord. Apart from the awkard little change I think it is near perfect. I still vote Dear God, Please Help Me as one of his best EVER songs.

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

In my opinion ROTT is fantastic and one of his best yet.

of course you think that, you are like 12 or something...

[!Viva Hate!]

of course you think that, you are like 12 or something...
ROFL!!!

[Practising Troublemaker]

of course you think that, you are like 12 or something...

16, so what does that mean?, Can I not judge Morrissey's albums?

[Oh my god, it's Robby!]

16, so what does that mean?, Can I not judge Morrissey's albums?

no, not really
sorry :o

[Practising Troublemaker]

no, not really
sorry :o

I realise I may be a bit young to be talking about Morrissey's albums like I have been around to see the release of all of them and been a fanatic for years and years, but since getting into Morrissey when I was about 11 I have been constantly listening to his albums aswell as The Smiths and so 5 years of solid listening has given me a clear view and allowed me to make a well judged opinion...in my opinion.

[MozDesign]

I realise I may be a bit young to be talking about Morrissey's albums like I have been around to see the release of all of them and been a fanatic for years and years, but since getting into Morrissey when I was about 11 I have been constantly listening to his albums aswell as The Smiths and so 5 years of solid listening has given me a clear view and allowed me to make a well judged opinion...in my opinion.

Don't listen to him. If he's not taking the piss, then he's being an arsehole, age has nothing to do with how people can rate an album.

Ringleader was a strong album in my opinion. Because I'm twenty this means I don't know anything? Nah like.

[Fingers B.]

I usually skip tracks when listening to CDs. I hardly ever do it with Smiths or Morrissey albums, because all the tracks seem to work as a whole.
Unfortunately I skip tracks on ROTT and only listen to these three:

Dear God Please Help Me
Life Is A Pigsty
I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now

Others bore me. They're not bad compared to other music around here, but they're not good considering Morrissey's potential.

Ganglord, Christian Dior and If You Don't Like Me, Don't Look At Me would have made the album better.

I don't want to criticise or be judgemental, because I respect Morrissey a great deal. It's good to be honest about it, I wouldn't want to turn into a fan who blindly takes everything he gives. If you say it's good, then it's good and you'll never get a better one.

I'd like to see an album where all songs are as good as Life Is A Pigsty and I know that he is the only one capable of doing it.

edit: Oh, and of course, Sweetie-Pie. Sweetie-Pie should have been on this album.

[!Viva Hate!]

I agree with you totally...