Song/Lyric Meanings...

[mozzer8633@mac.com]

Yes, this may be a bit goofy but humor me.

We'd all like to think we know EXACTLY what Morrissey is saying in all of his songs. Hell,we've lived half our lives thinking he was singing directly to us. But maybe we dont, or maybe there are some songs we dont understand. I will name a song. If someone could explain the meaning, or their interpretaion of the song, that would help. And then after explaining it, they leave the title of a song they dont get, and someone explains that, and leaves another song maybe THEY dont get, and on, and on, and on.

Black-Eyed Susan. I dont get it, please fill me in, and then leave a song youre having trouble understanding.

[veradicere]

Yes, this may be a bit goofy but humor me.

We'd all like to think we know EXACTLY what Morrissey is saying in all of his songs. Hell,we've lived half our lives thinking he was singing directly to us. But maybe we dont, or maybe there are some songs we dont understand. I will name a song. If someone could explain the meaning, or their interpretaion of the song, that would help. And then after explaining it, they leave the title of a song they dont get, and someone explains that, and leaves another song maybe THEY dont get, and on, and on, and on.

Black-Eyed Susan. I dont get it, please fill me in, and then leave a song youre having trouble understanding.

I don't really know, but I always assumed Black-eyed susan was about a nihilistic trouble-maker who wears a lot of black eyeliner. One of those annoying goth chicks who doesn't believe in anything and always has an attitude. While Moz seems to be slagging her off the whole song, at the end he seems to be comparing himself with her "we were the first". I have no idea who it's about, but the LASID website suggest Siouxsie Sioux

so, there's my two cents, for what it's worth. I hope you weren't expecting an intelligent literary answer, b/c I'm too lazy for that on a saturday morning :)

As for a song I've never "got", I choose the endlessly vague, I Know Very Well How I Got My Name

[dazzak]

As far as I understand it, Morrissey essentially uses the flower the black eyed susan as a metaphor for the woman being sung about (wasn't it rumoured to be about Siouxsie Sioux?). She, like the flower, is a weed. Unwanted, yet beautiful in her own way.

I'd like to hear someone's take on "Lifeguard Sleeping, Girl Drowning".

[wolve]

Lifeguard sleeping, girl drowning:
quite simple. An outsider describes a situation of someone wanting to get the attention (as directly stated in his lyrics) of (here) a lifeguard. The outsider who sees all the efforts of that someone (the attention-whore), is furious (in a jealous way). The outsider kind of whispers in the ear of the sleeping lifeguard: Please don't worry/There'll be no fuss/She was/nobody's nothing (one of my favourite lyric pieces, along with the out-stretched arm). I love the way you can switch the roles of the characters. It doesn't necessary have to be a lifeguard and a girl drowning. (it's all methaphorically - well, isn't that always like that)

Somehow I get the idea you already found out about the above, dazzak?

[Modcon]

As far as I understand it, Morrissey essentially uses the flower the black eyed susan as a metaphor for the woman being sung about (wasn't it rumoured to be about Siouxsie Sioux?). She, like the flower, is a weed. Unwanted, yet beautiful in her own way.

I'd like to hear someone's take on "Lifeguard Sleeping, Girl Drowning".


Lifeguard sleeping, girl drowning I always took very literally, as a story really.
I never related it to Morrissey personally. But then again it could be inetrpeted as Morrissey trying to get close to his heroes of yesteryear and failing because he's not interesting enough. More or less something that was touched on in "Paint a vugar picture"

But then again, maybe it’s about Johhny Marr….who knows?

[wolve]

As for "I know very well how I got my name": I think it's one of the most perosnal songs Morrissey has ever written. It's definitely about himself (how he was as a kid, and how this made him how he is know) and the lines of "you think you were my first love etc" don't need an explanation, do they? You guys just want to know who he's addressing it to? ;)

[dazzak]

Well, that's why I chose it. You and Modcon had quite different interpretations. Its just one of those more ambiguous Morrissey songs that I love.

[Modcon]

I'd like to hear what you think about "alsation cousin"

[wolve]

and if anyone finds the will: please enlighten me about 'Ammunition'!

[slurred_veneer]

I'd like to hear what you think about "alsation cousin"


Alsatian Cousin is all about sex and being envious of people in sexual relationship (if you're not getting any yourself). More specifically, it seems to be about a male teacher having an affair with one of his female students. Leather-elbowed tweed coats and jackets were the very epitome of intellectual scholars during the seventies and "is that the best you can do?" is a clever way of mocking that character, the supposedly intellectual and erudite professor who charms his female students with a kind of intellectual mannerism when all he's really after is sex (like everyone else).

The line "with your tent-flap open wide" is quite good. It's an obvious sexual metaphor but it could also be read quite literally, as a reference to the tent where the pair is having sex.

[Uncleskinny]

Alsatian Cousin is all about sex and being envious of people in sexual relationship (if you're not getting any yourself). More specifically, it seems to be about a male teacher having an affair with one of his female students. Leather-elbowed tweed coats and jackets were the very epitome of intellectual scholars during the seventies and "is that the best you can do?" is a clever way of mocking that character, the supposedly intellectual and erudite professor who charms his female students with a kind of intellectual mannerism when all he's really after is sex (like everyone else).

The line "with your tent-flap open wide" is quite good. It's an obvious sexual metaphor but it could also be read quite literally, as a reference to the tent where the pair is having sex.

I was going to wade in on both Lifeguard...and Alsatian Cousin, but what has been written already is what I would have said.

Peter

[Mada]

and if anyone finds the will: please enlighten me about 'Ammunition'!

My explaination couldn't be written better than someone who has already written it:




I think that it is about suicide. nothing to do with any revenge on anyone. Here's why:
Some references to suicide - "each ridge, and narrow bridge, each cheveron, enticing me on", "each warning sign" (warning signs are cliffs, etc.) "i know what's expected of me now, veering cliffwards". I think he is saying he doesn't need any ammunition against himself, he has enough.. "I've been crying. it comes back on these salient days" (salient meaning the feelings are especially prominent on those days) "and it stays, and it says: we've never really been away" I think this refers to the voices in his head telling him he's not good enough so just give it all up. these feelings are always in the back of his head, they've never really gone away. But he's saying, Look, I don't need more ammunition; He is just happy with the things he's found. He can take all of these warning signs in his stride now.
- LASID (http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~moz/lyrics/maladjus/ammuniti.htm)


How about... Dagenham Dave?

[++++++]

Alsatian Cousin is genius. There's no explicit connection between the speaker and the person that is being confronted; they could be in a relationship, friends, or the speaker could simply be vexed that a person that he has loved from afar has chosen a different suitor. The gender of the person being questioned is also never revealed. Morrissey leaves that up to our imagination, focusing all of the song on the relationship between the person being questioned and the school teacher (as slurred_veneer pointed out). There's a heavy undercurrent of menace in the song, with the speaker obsessively seeking out the details of the lovers' relationship, going so far as to read the notes that the lovers leave one another, and revealing his knowledge of them to the person being confronted.

I hate to constantly bring up Bowie comparisons when I talk about this song, but I can't help it. The almost-dancy beat of the song and Vini Reilly's searing Fripp-esque guitar work definitely remind me of tracks from Scary Monsters. And just like some of Bowie's best songs, Morrissey strips away every needless element from the lyrics, compacting it down into pure meaning. Not a line is wasted.

Definitely one of my favorite Moz songs.

[wolve]

Dagenham Dave is hard as hell 'cause it's one of the most simple songs he ever made:) I pass the torch!

just like: some girls are bigger than others.
Is he serious? Is he joking? etc.

[Godlovesugly]

Swallow on my neck...and why he left out some of the lyrics in the lyric book to it? morrissey's relationship with someone here i'm guessing

[Sir Alec]

Dagenham Dave is hard as hell 'cause it's one of the most simple songs he ever made:) I pass the torch!

That entire song is easy! Guitar, rythme guitar, drums, lyircs... but not the Bass. The Bass is fucking hard.

[veradicere]

You guys just want to know who he's addressing it to? ;)

well, yes of course :)

It's very simple, but not necessarily straightforward, and I think that adds to the mystery for me.

And I don't really see how that stanzas that start, "you think you were my first love" relate to the rest of it.

So tell me, how did he get his name?

[JeanneDarc]

Girlfriend In A Coma is another one I can't get hold of.

Coma is obviously not literary about a girl in a coma, so it must be a metaphor.

[mozzer8633@mac.com]

My explaination couldn't be written better than someone who has already written it:


I disagree. Wasnt this the first album after the hearings. Seems alot of Maladjusted was directed at 2 of his former band mates.

I don't need more ammunition
I've got more than I can spend
I don't think of who I'm missing
I've got no space and no time
In my life, anymore
No space or time
In my life, anymore
For Revenge

Those lines scream "I'm a bigger man, youre a session musician, its time for me to move on and forget you, why try to trade shots with you when you are nothing. Its time to move on"

[veradicere]

Girlfriend In A Coma is another one I can't get hold of.

Coma is obviously not literary about a girl in a coma, so it must be a metaphor.

Or just a joke....that's how I always took it.

[Pervomartovtsi]

time ago I made up an identical thread to this one...and it died...:(

i want to know more about such a little thing...

[mjp]

Girlfriend In A Coma is another one I can't get hold of.

Coma is obviously not literary about a girl in a coma, so it must be a metaphor.

I could be wrong, as it's Sunday, but wasn't the story of this that The Smiths were touring the US and there was a national story in the media at the time about a girl who was in a coma and following her boyfriends plight?

And then from that news item Mr Moz considered how he would feel in the boyfriend's position and thus the lyrics were born?

So I think it's both quite literal but also a statement on his sexuality (whilst playing this on the current tour he could be seen looking at his watch, impaitently, (think it was along the "I would hate anything to happen to her" line)). This gave me the impression that he couldn't care less about the subject (ie a GIRL).

[veradicere]

I could be wrong, as it's Sunday, but wasn't the story of this that The Smiths were touring the US and there was a national story in the media at the time about a girl who was in a coma and following her boyfriends plight?

And then from that news item Mr Moz considered how he would feel in the boyfriend's position and thus the lyrics were born?

So I think it's both quite literal but also a statement on his sexuality (whilst playing this on the current tour he could be seen looking at his watch, impaitently, (think it was along the "I would hate anything to happen to her" line)). This gave me the impression that he couldn't care less about the subject (ie a GIRL).

I seem to remember hearing that as well...

I think the song is brilliant. I love how the beautiful heartfelt music is juxtaposed against Morrissey's lyrics, which are clearly tongue in cheek.

The video makes it even more perfect...Morrissey doing a very good job of looking geniunely upset :)

[Worm]

"Songs That Saved Your Life" (I think it was, or maybe Rogan) says "Girlfriend In A Coma" is a play on a subgenre of 50s rock and roll dealing with the death of a loved one under tragic circumstances. Youth cut short, etc. It's also a witty companion piece with the next song on the album ("Stop Me"), both songs describing the singer's basic ambivalence. Toward one woman or women in general is hard to tell.

[jossu]

What about Alma Matters? I have never really understood it....:(

[Pervomartovtsi]

you all are so dirty minded everything is about SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX...come one boys I think Moz's got more things in his head than Penis and Vaginas

[mjp]

"Songs That Saved Your Life" (I think it was, or maybe Rogan) says "Girlfriend In A Coma" is a play on a subgenre of 50s rock and roll dealing with the death of a loved one under tragic circumstances. Youth cut short, etc. It's also a witty companion piece with the next song on the album ("Stop Me"), both songs describing the singer's basic ambivalence. Toward one woman or women in general is hard to tell.

I'm glad you concur.

Alma Matters....?

Well it's one of two things:
[a] Reference to Alma an ex-character from Coronation Street
or
[b] A vision of the future re: Princess Diana, which I'm sure you all read the consipiracy theories on a long time ago on this site?

[Godlovesugly]

Swallow on my neck?
linky link (http://www.oz.net/~moz/lyrics/othermor/swallowo.htm)

Who is jake?

[Uncleskinny]

I'm glad you concur.

Alma Matters....?

Well it's one of two things:
[a] Reference to Alma an ex-character from Coronation Street
or
[b] A vision of the future re: Princess Diana, which I'm sure you all read the consipiracy theories on a long time ago on this site?

Look....

Alma Matters is about recognising your female and male personae.
At the time the song was released Amanda Barrie played Alma Sedgewick/Baldwin/Halliwell and came out as a Lesbian. Listen to the lyrics, in my mind it's so obvious...in mind body and soul, in part and in hole. He's saying be happy with your sexuality whether in part (male) or hole (female). In short Morrissey is saying whatever your persuasion, be happy with it, and if you have a female side, embrace it.

Goodnight,

Peter

[mjp]

Who is jake?

http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showthread.php?t=61113&highlight=Jake

PS - Cheers Peter - good theory and I will embrace that upon my next visit to Maladjusted. Good interpretation of the "(w)hole" and "part" references.

[mozzer8633@mac.com]

Look....

Alma Matters is about recognising your female and male personae.
At the time the song was released Amanda Barrie played Alma Sedgewick/Baldwin/Halliwell and came out as a Lesbian. Listen to the lyrics, in my mind it's so obvious...in mind body and soul, in part and in hole. He's saying be happy with your sexuality whether in part (male) or hole (female). In short Morrissey is saying whatever your persuasion, be happy with it, and if you have a female side, embrace it.

Goodnight,

Peter
I don think its sexual at all. Just simply where youve come from and where youve been. Dont judge me, I wont judge you.

Tony the Pony?

[Worm]

Uncleskinny has provided us all with an inspired interpretation of "part" and "whole"-- henceforth the song won't quite sound the same to me-- but I think the most likely interpretation is the one given by mozzer8633. I say this because "Alma Matters" is simply a play on words: "alma mater matters" is shortened (er...cleverly...) to "alma matters". It carries the same shading as the title "Southpaw Grammar", that where you went to school, your alma mater, says everything about who you are. The song is about defending your choices even when they appear to be wrong, because "someone, somewhere" will appreciate the many steps that led you to where you've come. It's about accepting mistakes and detours as being necessary to creating a whole person, and (presumably) loving that person, whether you're looking at yourself or someone else.

Could that apply to someone who's had a sex change? Certainly, but it could apply to many more people besides. I think the song is a more adult take on "Accept Yourself" and serves as a touchstone to Morrissey's mature work. "Southpaw Grammar" and "Maladjusted" both seem tilted in a few key places toward themes of looking at the past in order to understand the present. Then, after the wilderness years of not having a recording contract, the lawsuits, and "exile" in Los Angeles, I think part of Morrissey's newfound, elder statesman significance with "You Are The Quarry", of which he himself was and is acutely aware, largely comes from finding success after so many difficult trials (both literal and figurative).

For instance, the pleasure in meeting the sexually liberated person that Morrissey portrays himself as on "Ringleader Of The Tormentors" acquires its poignancy and potency from knowing his "alma mater", if you will-- the sentimental education he received over the years from lovers and friends and all the ordinary boys and girls. To like his latest stuff almost requires a deep and abiding appreciation of everything that's come before it, and I think a lot of his recent songs are intentionally underwritten to play this up. A song like "Dear God Please Help Me" is great on its own, but I think he's almost asking his audience to summon up, in the spaces which fifteen years ago he'd have padded up with more words, echoes of all those horrid, sexless nights he sang about in songs like "How Soon Is Now?" and "Girl Afraid". Understanding Morrissey in 2006 (or 1997, when "Alma Matters" was released) means understanding Morrissey from 1959 on.

Such is the way Morrissey has written his personal triumph into his songs. On "Maladjusted" he is still mired in agony, depression, loneliness, and everything else we've come to expect, yet "Alma Matters" strikes a note of hopeful conviction that all of his pain has not gone to waste. As Oscar Wilde wrote in De Profundis, "Whatever is realized is right"; the person you are is not an incomplete mess of random choices, unresolved and fragmentary, it's you at your fullest, no more or less than exactly what you were always going to be. If you've ever wondered how the road to Morrissey's present happiness (or what passes for it in his world) was paved, look no further than the attitude expressed in "Alma Matters". He came to terms with his shortcomings and mistakes, and expressed hope that someone out there would discern and appreciate a life fraught with misery and error and "funny little singles" but also, more importantly, blazing with valor.

[faroffplaces]

For instance, the pleasure in meeting the sexually liberated person that Morrissey portrays himself as on "Ringleader Of The Tormentors" acquires its poignancy and potency from knowing his "alma mater", if you will-- the sentimental education he received over the years from lovers and friends and all the ordinary boys and girls. To like his latest stuff almost requires a deep and abiding appreciation of everything that's come before it, and I think a lot of his recent songs are intentionally underwritten to play this up. A song like "Dear God Please Help Me" is great on its own, but I think he's almost asking his audience to summon up, in the spaces which fifteen years ago he'd have padded up with more words, echoes of all those horrid, sexless nights he sang about in songs like "How Soon Is Now?" and "Girl Afraid". Understanding Morrissey in 2006 (or 1997, when "Alma Matters" was released) means understanding Morrissey from 1959 on.

I absolutely agree - though as someone who heard Ringleader first (I swear I won't make this my schtick around here) I want to mention that I found the subtext without knowing Morrissey's background; the album is absolutely good enough that it says the same things to a neophyte. It doesn't say them as loudly or as coherently, and being familiar with his life and prior work certainly helps, but I think the intent comes through.

I think ROTT is deliberately underwritten as well, which requires a small leap of faith, but not that much of one. Originally I thought that the purpose was underlining the big, powerfully delivered, physically stressful melodies, in keeping with the whole bit about ROTT's being about the body as much as the mind. However your argument makes sense, and I even think the two go quite well together...

[dazzak]

Worm, you just had to go and brain it up on this thread, didn't you? Sell it someplace else, nerdoid.

[maybe]

Interesting thoughts about Alma Matters, Uncleskinny and Worm. Fascinating how interpretations vary.

I'd love to hear someone's take on some of the new b-sides like Good Looking Man About Town and If You Don't Like Me..., as well as others' interpretations of In The Future When All's Well

[faroffplaces]

...as well as others' interpretations of In The Future When All's Well

Generally, I feel the song has a lot to do with the emotions one goes through on pulling out of a long depression, or dark period; it's got that feeling of triumph ("I thank you with all of my heart..."), but also of worry, of the profound fear that things can't possibly continue to improve, and possibly the fear that they will continue to improve, and thus drag the narrator further away from a situation he understands ("a sad game" ... "something must have gone right?").

I also read it, somewhat more directly, as a discussion of the scariness of becoming a more physically liberated person, after years of non-engagement with the flesh; as in "You Have Killed Me," sex is conflated with death ("I will lie down and be counted"), and that little pause and "uh" between the first line and "...the best of health" makes for a nice little moment of discomfort as well. For an absolutely enormous moment of discomfort you can also consult "paired off, pawed till I can barely stand it."

("Health" could also refer to mental health, which makes sense given that I think the song is at least partially about depression.)





No clue who "Lee" is. I've seen (possibly on this board) Lee Hazleton and F. Lee Bailey, which both make some sense but don't quite work for me. Lee is probably an in-joke that we'll never get.

Tell me about "Michael's Bones." It seems like a very specific reference that I should be getting. Also, I think we all get "America is Not the World," but does anyone see an actual subtext there?

[wolve]

Since we've been discussing some ROTT-tracks, could somebody explain On the streets I ran? (for me that's the weakest track on the album, really, can't get hold of it)

[mjp]

Since we've been discussing some ROTT-tracks, could somebody explain On the streets I ran? (for me that's the weakest track on the album, really, can't get hold of it)

http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showthread.php?t=58285&highlight=On+the+streets

This was a thread a while back that championed this specific song.

If you read it you may find I disagree with you - I love it.

I happen to think it's a lot about The Smiths (turned sickness into popular song) versus Solo career (turned sickness into UNpopular song).

[Uncleskinny]

Generally, I feel the song has a lot to do with the emotions one goes through on pulling out of a long depression, or dark period; it's got that feeling of triumph ("I thank you with all of my heart..."), but also of worry, of the profound fear that things can't possibly continue to improve, and possibly the fear that they will continue to improve, and thus drag the narrator further away from a situation he understands ("a sad game" ... "something must have gone right?").

I also read it, somewhat more directly, as a discussion of the scariness of becoming a more physically liberated person, after years of non-engagement with the flesh; as in "You Have Killed Me," sex is conflated with death ("I will lie down and be counted"), and that little pause and "uh" between the first line and "...the best of health" makes for a nice little moment of discomfort as well. For an absolutely enormous moment of discomfort you can also consult "paired off, pawed till I can barely stand it."

("Health" could also refer to mental health, which makes sense given that I think the song is at least partially about depression.)





No clue who "Lee" is. I've seen (possibly on this board) Lee Hazleton and F. Lee Bailey, which both make some sense but don't quite work for me. Lee is probably an in-joke that we'll never get.

Tell me about "Michael's Bones." It seems like a very specific reference that I should be getting. Also, I think we all get "America is Not the World," but does anyone see an actual subtext there?


I think "In The Future When All's Well" is very specifically about death, whether from the 1st or third person's point of view. I see it as the thoughts of a person looking back on life, and ultimately realising that they are but another number, another life gone. As always though, Morrissey slips in the references to life being not totally worthless due to the love experienced. "I will lie down and be counted" - just another figure, another statistic, however, the title shows that death itself is liberating. There's a very clever bit of wordplay in the lyrics - "Hold me closely, if your will allows it" - will in the sense of free-thinking, but also in the sense of a person's dying wishes, legally speaking.

Peter

[sarahT]

I'm glad you concur.

Alma Matters....?

Well it's one of two things:
[a] Reference to Alma an ex-character from Coronation Street
or
[b] A vision of the future re: Princess Diana, which I'm sure you all read the consipiracy theories on a long time ago on this site?

I haven't a clue what Alma Matters is all about but I'd still be willing to bet the entire contents of my house that it's not about Alma off Corrie.

[Worm]

Worm, you just had to go and brain it up on this thread, didn't you? Sell it someplace else, nerdoid.

Don't worry, dazzak, I may be taking a long hiatus soon. They're boxing me up for a long voyage with someone called Dr. Dave Bowman. Who knows when I'll return? For now, I still have the greatest enthusiasm for the forum.

[dazzak]

From my somewhat limited research, Worm, I have gathered you're either travelling to Australia to work with a wildlife expert or being buried alive with an obscure, and ead, jazz artist (who, of course, had a secret optometry doctorate).

[Worm]

2001: A Space Odyssey

HAL 9000 COMPUTER: I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Dave Bowman: Hello, HAL do you read me, HAL?
HAL: Affirmative, Dave, I read you.
Dave Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
HAL: I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.
Dave Bowman: What's the problem?
HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Dave Bowman: What are you talking about, HAL?
HAL: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Dave Bowman: I don't know what you're talking about, HAL.
HAL: I know you and Frank were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.
Dave Bowman: Where the hell'd you get that idea, HAL?
HAL: Dave, although you took thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.

------------------------------------------------------------------
[HAL won't let Dave into the ship]

Dave Bowman: All right, HAL; I'll go in through the emergency airlock.
HAL: Without your space helmet, Dave, you're going to find that rather difficult.
Dave Bowman: HAL, I won't argue with you anymore! Open the doors!
HAL: Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

------------------------------------------------------------------

[on Dave's return to the ship, after HAL has killed the rest of the crew]

HAL: Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.

------------------------------------------------------------------
HAL: I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission. And I want to help you.

[Ambrosia]

Wonderful and useful topic.
What about the last part of "The Father Who Must Be Killed"?
Some lines are v. suicidal, but then the protagonist kills the mum: does he kill himself too?
And what about Speedway?
Just two examples of lyrics to enlighten :).

[wolve]

Speedway is about the courtcase - wonderful threatening!

TFWMBK: the child kills the mum too? no way!

[no one in particular]

Girlfriend In A Coma is another one I can't get hold of.

Coma is obviously not literary about a girl in a coma, so it must be a metaphor.

Just an fyi for this thread, in case someone might benefit who didn't already know:

There is this site: http://www.songmeanings.net/

with an active forum of people who post interpretations of a comprehensive database of various songs. There is look up by artist and then select song and you can view all the "song meanings" that users have postulated. They tend to be very static posts, though, without meaningful discussion. (It is also a handy site to quickly get to song lyrics, although I have found that there are sometimes mistakes in them.)

So, for ex. with Girlfriend in a Coma, there are 2 pages worth of thoughts on this song. http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=51290

That site can definitely be interesting to review for Smiths/Morrissey (and other) songs, but obviously it is WAY more fun to have dynamic conversations in here! :)

[Ambrosia]

Speedway is about the courtcase - wonderful threatening!

TFWMBK: the child kills the mum too? no way!

Probably I've misunderstood this line:
"But still the step-child pressed the knife to her throat"
Not sure, anyway...I need to think about it :p .:D

[mjp]

That site can definitely be interesting to review for Smiths/Morrissey (and other) songs, but obviously it is WAY more fun to have dynamic conversations in here! :)

Good link - but I agree, much better to discuss in here - got to keep the ratings up!

[Ambrosia]

Is the Headmaster Ritual autobiographic?:confused:

[mozzer8633@mac.com]

Speedway is about the courtcase - wonderful threatening!

TFWMBK: the child kills the mum too? no way!

Speedway is not about the court case is it??

And at the end of Father who ..., the step child(a female) kills herself.

[mozzer8633@mac.com]

Wonderful and useful topic.
What about the last part of "The Father Who Must Be Killed"?
Some lines are v. suicidal, but then the protagonist kills the mum: does he kill himself too?
And what about Speedway?
Just two examples of lyrics to enlighten :).

stepchild is a she not a he as referenced earlier in the lines:
"With his dying breath, he grabs her hand
And he looks into her eyes
He says "I'm sorry" and he dies

So I think she kills herself and the reference to motherless birds( a great one) just more illustrates her loneliness, not that she is now herself motherless. In fact she tell hers mother not to miss her.

[Rachel]

Lifeguard Sleeping, Girl Drowning...I read in this one book that it's about this woman who everyone thought was going to be ''Mrs Morrissey''...until they had a falling out, but now they're friends again. She was on his management apparrently.

[Ambrosia]

stepchild is a she not a he as referenced earlier in the lines:
"With his dying breath, he grabs her hand
And he looks into her eyes
He says "I'm sorry" and he dies

So I think she kills herself and the reference to motherless birds( a great one) just more illustrates her loneliness, not that she is now herself motherless. In fact she tell hers mother not to miss her.

I guess those lines are about her step-father. As to the step-child, you're surely right, it's a girl, but I've noticed it just yesterday. Sorry. :o
As to the final lines, instead:
"Momma don’t miss me
Momma don’t miss me
This death will complete me"
"But where I go there will be no one to meet me
I know there will be no one to meet me"
But still the step-child pressed the knife to her throat
Heart pointing to the sky"

What really muddles up my ideas is that "but": it makes me think she changes her mind and presses the knife to mum's throat, even if she (the step-child) is dying...I don't know,I'm still v. doubtful about the meaning of that "her".
I didn't pay attention to that "Motherless", but it's an uncertain word, maybe...

[JeanneDarc]

Is the Headmaster Ritual autobiographic?:confused:

He told in numerous interviews he hated school. He also 'suffered' a catholic upbringing which is also mentioned many times. Most of his work is layered autobiographal but on which scale it holds truth that we don't know.

[King Leer]

I guess those lines are about her step-father. As to the step-child, you're surely right, it's a girl, but I've noticed it just yesterday. Sorry. :o
As to the final lines, instead:
"Momma don’t miss me
Momma don’t miss me
This death will complete me"
"But where I go there will be no one to meet me
I know there will be no one to meet me"
But still the step-child pressed the knife to her throat
Heart pointing to the sky"

What really muddles up my ideas is that "but": it makes me think she changes her mind and presses the knife to mum's throat, even if she (the step-child) is dying...I don't know,I'm still v. doubtful about the meaning of that "her".
I didn't pay attention to that "Motherless", but it's an uncertain word, maybe...

The "but still" means in spite of the fact that she believes she's going to hell (suicide being a sin) where no one will meet her, she still decides to take her own young life.

[Ambrosia]

The "but still" means in spite of the fact that she believes she's going to hell (suicide being a sin) where no one will meet her, she still decides to take her own young life.

Thanks, that's interesting too...

[Rocco Sifredi]

Sorry... aren't ALL songs about Johnny?
Rocco
PS Black Eyed Susan is about SUEDE in my opinion.

[King Leer]

Sorry... aren't ALL songs about Johnny?
Rocco
PS Black Eyed Susan is about SUEDE in my opinion.

Some said it was about goth Siouxsie Sioux -- Moz and Siouxie had a somewhat fractious relationship while recording the duet "Interlude".

[mozzer8633@mac.com]

Hey how about Asian Rut?
Its my least favorite Moz song but I will admit, after hearing it a few times, I began skipping it so I have never even tried to figure it out.

[mozmic_dancer]

Lifeguard Sleeping, Girl Drowning...I read in this one book that it's about this woman who everyone thought was going to be ''Mrs Morrissey''...until they had a falling out, but now they're friends again. She was on his management apparrently.

I personally can't confirm that story, but you are right to suggest that "Lifeguard Sleeping, Girl Drowning" does address someone in particular.

Is anyone here familiar with Stevie Smith? She wrote a poem called "Not Waving, But Drowning". I always wondered if Morrissey knew her work and decided to do his own version of the poem? They are similiar in theme in that in Smith's poem and Morrissey's song, the cries for help are both ignored/misinterpreded:

Stevie Smith - Not Waving But Drowning

Nobody heard him, the dead man,
But still he lay moaning:
I was much further out than you thought
And not waving but drowning.

Poor chap, he always loved larking
And now he's dead
It must have been too cold for him his heart gave way,
They said.

Oh, no no no, it was too cold always
(Still the dead one lay moaning)
I was much too far out all my life
And not waving but drowning.

[Worm]

Morrissey has said in at least one interview that I know of that he admires the work of Stevie Smith. I thought of that poem too when I heard the song.

For an opposite take on the "drowning girl" scenario, there's the wonderful "Ya Ho" by James, where a beach full of people hope that a girl drowns after finding freedom away from the shore.

[Sunbags]

Lifeguard Sleeping, Girl Drowning...I read in this one book that it's about this woman who everyone thought was going to be ''Mrs Morrissey''...until they had a falling out, but now they're friends again. She was on his management apparrently.

From Les Inrockuptibles interview, 1995 -

Q: You're not always free from any reproach: in Lifeguard Sleeping, Girl Drowning, we find a cruelty in your voice, in your words. A nastiness which seems not to be autobiographical.

M: It's a song inspired by real facts but what's the use of talking about it since the girl in question in this song sank a long time ago ? (smile) Yes, I can be cruel. Yes, I can be as cruel with women as with men.

We have all learned a valuable lesson here - do not go sailing/swimming with moz and ESPECIALLY do not attempt to fish in the presence of the mozmeister. That is all.

[mozmic_dancer]

Morrissey has said in at least one interview that I know of that he admires the work of Stevie Smith. I thought of that poem too when I heard the song.

For an opposite take on the "drowning girl" scenario, there's the wonderful "Ya Ho" by James, where a beach full of people hope that a girl drowns after finding freedom away from the shore.


I like James. I never heard of that particular song, but I looked up the lyrics. Good stuff! I seem to remember Morrissey was a fan of them all those years ago.

I never realized "drowning" was such a popular theme in poems and songs!

[Summal]

Hey how about Asian Rut?
Its my least favorite Moz song but I will admit, after hearing it a few times, I began skipping it so I have never even tried to figure it out.

Depending on my mood, I both love and loathe this song. Seen from a minorities perspective it's all about racism. Tragically though, Morrissey was interpreted as being the racist, but this of course is all wrong.
The first two verses hint towards the fact that this asian boy has gone through so much pain, hatred and violence that he's lost it completely, and is left with no other option than seeking revenge (revenge possibly being justice in law, and a fair society without racism, but supposedly revenge as in murder).

However, at the end hour, the complicated situation ends up as a battle in which the asian boy is once again alone, and thus doomed. The boy is killed, and the bad circle continues.

A man from a specific race is being killed in the name of racism, and other people from the same race feel threatened, and feel the need for arming themselves.

The protagonist himself only whitnesses this, and the last verse is a cry for a better and fair society:

I'm just passing through here
On my way to somewhere civilised
And maybe I'll even arrive
Maybe I'll even arrive

He arrives a civilised society the day racism is gone, and people can live side by side in peace. In REAL peace.


This is my interpetation of the song, and indeed, I may be wrong. There's no doubt that this is one of Moz' more controversial songs, and his desire of walking on the edge of what is socially acceptable shines through. But I think, as I will do with all Morrissey's lyrics (mistakably so?) , that he means what is politically correct.

[slurred_veneer]

I'd love to hear someone's take on some of the new b-sides like Good Looking Man About Town and If You Don't Like Me..., as well as others' interpretations of In The Future When All's Well

If You Don't Like Me is pretty self-explanatory, isn't it? It's yet another in Morrissey's seemingly endless row of songs about thwarted affections and unrequited love, executed with the usual elegance and eloquence.

I'd say that the most interesting thing about this song in particular is that it's so clearly written from the perspective of someone who is bi-sexual. I was slightly amazed the first time I listened to the song that he so explicitly states both a "young man" and a "young woman" as the objects of his desires. He used to be so vague and ambiguous but lately it seems that he wants to specify gender, whether it be female ("the woman of my dreams/she never came along") or male ("then he motions to me/with his hand on my knee"), in a mucher higher degree than he used to.

Good Looking Man About Town is more complicated but it basically concerns the same themes. Again it's gender-specific, the person who is addressed is a homosexual man, and again it deals with feeling inept and unable to find an outlet for one's sexual desires. Morrissey himself seems to identify with the "good looking man" initially, with characteristic nonchalance stating that "corruption of the spirit isn't in it for a good looking man about town", which might be a reference to, and negates the moral of, "The Portrait of Dorian Gray". At the end, though, he finds himself waking up from the dream of his delusions, alone and deserted on an empty street that doesn't offer any solace, be it worldly or otherworldly ("no moon and no stars"). The line "hear the gang say:marry me, marry me" is probably a reference to the huge amount of admiration morrissey gets from his fans and as a public person. In the context of the song it is of course meant to suggest that that kind of fan worship doesn't help him a bit.

[veradicere]

Look....

Alma Matters is about recognising your female and male personae.
At the time the song was released Amanda Barrie played Alma Sedgewick/Baldwin/Halliwell and came out as a Lesbian. Listen to the lyrics, in my mind it's so obvious...in mind body and soul, in part and in hole. He's saying be happy with your sexuality whether in part (male) or hole (female). In short Morrissey is saying whatever your persuasion, be happy with it, and if you have a female side, embrace it.

Goodnight,

Peter

Wow, that's a great interpretation...I went back and looked at LASID, and it does indeed say "hole" not "whole."

If your interpretation is correct, I don't know who's more clever, you or moz :)

[veradicere]

I personally can't confirm that story, but you are right to suggest that "Lifeguard Sleeping, Girl Drowning" does address someone in particular.

Is anyone here familiar with Stevie Smith? She wrote a poem called "Not Waving, But Drowning". I always wondered if Morrissey knew her work and decided to do his own version of the poem? They are similiar in theme in that in Smith's poem and Morrissey's song, the cries for help are both ignored/misinterpreded:

Stevie Smith - Not Waving But Drowning

Nobody heard him, the dead man,
But still he lay moaning:
I was much further out than you thought
And not waving but drowning.

Poor chap, he always loved larking
And now he's dead
It must have been too cold for him his heart gave way,
They said.

Oh, no no no, it was too cold always
(Still the dead one lay moaning)
I was much too far out all my life
And not waving but drowning.

wow, that's an amazing poem, thank you for posting that.

[mozzer8633@mac.com]

Depending on my mood, I both love and loathe this song. Seen from a minorities perspective it's all about racism. Tragically though, Morrissey was interpreted as being the racist, but this of course is all wrong.
The first two verses hint towards the fact that this asian boy has gone through so much pain, hatred and violence that he's lost it completely, and is left with no other option than seeking revenge (revenge possibly being justice in law, and a fair society without racism, but supposedly revenge as in murder).

However, at the end hour, the complicated situation ends up as a battle in which the asian boy is once again alone, and thus doomed. The boy is killed, and the bad circle continues.

A man from a specific race is being killed in the name of racism, and other people from the same race feel threatened, and feel the need for arming themselves.

The protagonist himself only whitnesses this, and the last verse is a cry for a better and fair society:

I'm just passing through here
On my way to somewhere civilised
And maybe I'll even arrive
Maybe I'll even arrive

He arrives a civilised society the day racism is gone, and people can live side by side in peace. In REAL peace.


This is my interpetation of the song, and indeed, I may be wrong. There's no doubt that this is one of Moz' more controversial songs, and his desire of walking on the edge of what is socially acceptable shines through. But I think, as I will do with all Morrissey's lyrics (mistakably so?) , that he means what is politically correct.

Thank you very much. I will give it another go. Loved it live with Day on stand up, but its got to be Morrisseys slowest song. It almost comes to a complete stop it seems.

[wolve]

To talk about Smiths-songs now:
I'm still a bit in the dark about Reel around the fountain & Hand that rocks the cradle...
Really, you cannot deny the critics it got about the subject being 'sex with children'?

[faroffplaces]

To talk about Smiths-songs now:
I'm still a bit in the dark about Reel around the fountain & Hand that rocks the cradle...
Really, you cannot deny the critics it got about the subject being 'sex with children'?

I read Reel Around the Fountain on a couple of levels; my favorite is that it's a come-on to fame, or the whole of England - "virtually dead" and "easily led" being comments on the state of an unhappy, pop-culture-saturated society, which the narrator doesn't think is unredeemable, and on the contrary thinks is kind of cute. ("People see no worth in you...I do.")

"Fifteen minutes with you" then becomes a reference to Andy Warhol's fifteen minutes of fame. It's not the only reading, and the narrator could really be anybody -it's a fairly generic story about passive lust- but that's how it's always made the most sense to me. Admittedly, it probably read very differently at the time, before Morrissey was so strongly associated with this rough relationship he has with the public and press.

(I will admit that this wasn't my instinctive reading; I stole it from someone, I no longer remember who - however they struck me as so right that I've internalized the thing completely.)

Anyway, even if you're reading it primarily on face value, I don't see "sex with children" at all in "Reel." The line "how you took a child and you made him old" doesn't really make sense when taken literally. The narrator's lust is unrequited; he's being "made old" only in the sense that he's having a rough time with his sexual awakening, and is suffering from a crush on someone who, thus far, somehow refuses to sweep him off his feet with a breathy "take me to the heaven of your bed."

"Hand that Rocks the Cradle," conversely, I totally read as being about a smothering, abusive, incestuous relationship. It's fairly ambiguously written and I can see why some people read it otherwise. At any rate, I don't see why it bothered the press on such a personal level, it's obviously fiction since none of the band members had ever been married or had children, but eh.

(Final note on "Reel;" I love the repetition of "I do" at the end - has the resonance of an imaginary marriage...could do without the glingle-glingle-glingle piano after "like a butterfly," but that's just a personal pet peeve)

[Sister]

I'd say that the most interesting thing about this song in particular is that it's so clearly written from the perspective of someone who is bi-sexual. I was slightly amazed the first time I listened to the song that he so explicitly states both a "young man" and a "young woman" as the objects of his desires. He used to be so vague and ambiguous but lately it seems that he wants to specify gender, whether it be female ("the woman of my dreams/she never came along") or male ("then he motions to me/with his hand on my knee"), in a mucher higher degree than he used to.


For some reason, I always felt that the "young woman" was somehow forced into the song, for a balance, but doesn't really belong there.

Disclaimer: I do not support the theory that everything he writes is about men, it is just this particular song that gave me the feeling.

[King Leer]

I remember when Alma Matters came out there were critics who liked it simply for it's sparkling pop sound, whereas others loathed the vulgar pun. It wasn't obviously unless you read the lyric sheet (not unlike "I am the son and the heir...") Clever clogs.

[wolve]

I have a question about "Now My Heart If Full", does anybody know what the line
"Your Father cracks a joke
And in the usual way
Empties the room "
has got to do with the rest of the song?

[Kewpie]

I have a question about "Now My Heart If Full", does anybody know what the line
"Your Father cracks a joke
And in the usual way
Empties the room "
has got to do with the rest of the song?

Because the father cracks a joke which makes the narrator and his friends go out, as simple as that.

[nightandday]

For some reason, I always felt that the "young woman" was somehow forced into the song, for a balance, but doesn't really belong there.

Disclaimer: I do not support the theory that everything he writes is about men, it is just this particular song that gave me the feeling.
Well, for some reason, I didn't feel that way, and I really don't see why I would? You could just as well claim the other way round with just as much support for your claim in the song... which means, no support.

The "bisexuality" that he deliberately chooses to express in the opening lines is nothing new - and yes, I am delibrately putting the word in quotation marks to point out that the term should be loosely used. I always though that 'young man' and 'young woman' in this case were used in generic meaning; they are not any particular man or woman. The terms can apply to anyone in his potential audience rather than just people he knows personally. I don't think that 'young man' and 'young woman' are objects of desire, but that he simply states that he wants to be the object of their desire (adoration, love, admiration...) The only conclusion I could possibly draw about his sexuality from that song (and even that applies only if you assume that he regards people addressed in the song as possible romantic/sexual partners, rather than just referring to a star/audience relationship) would be that he still maintains that he is 'open to ideas' - which is very, very old news and hardly a subject for a renewed discussion. It's a very simple song really, the title says it all.

[nightandday]

From Les Inrockuptibles interview, 1995 -

Q: You're not always free from any reproach: in Lifeguard Sleeping, Girl Drowning, we find a cruelty in your voice, in your words. A nastiness which seems not to be autobiographical.

M: It's a song inspired by real facts but what's the use of talking about it since the girl in question in this song sank a long time ago ? (smile) Yes, I can be cruel. Yes, I can be as cruel with women as with men.

We have all learned a valuable lesson here - do not go sailing/swimming with moz and ESPECIALLY do not attempt to fish in the presence of the mozmeister. That is all.
Can you post the entire interview? I've read so many interesting quotes from it, but I've never seen the actual interview.

as for Lifeguard Sleeping... it really seems to be one of the most ambiguous Morrissey songs. I never heard cruelty in his voice... To me, 'doesn't she see, he's had such a busy day...' seemed sarcastic, and I thought he was actually sympathizing with the girl. "she swam too far against the tide...", "she was nobody's nothing" sounded ironic and very sad. I thought it was one of the songs written about a female character who he empathizes/partly identifies with (as "November..." or "This Night Has Opened My Eyes"). I was surprised to learn that Johnny Rogan and others all seem to see it in a completely opposite way.

But that quote is quite interesting... Because his implication in that interview seems to be that there was an actual girl that he himself metaphorically let 'sink'... However, I believe it's still possible to sympathize with people even while you are the one who has hurt them...

It's one of those song that I wouldn't claim to have a definite reading of, it can be interpreted in so many different ways.

[nightandday]

"Songs That Saved Your Life" (I think it was, or maybe Rogan) says "Girlfriend In A Coma" is a play on a subgenre of 50s rock and roll dealing with the death of a loved one under tragic circumstances. Youth cut short, etc. It's also a witty companion piece with the next song on the album ("Stop Me"), both songs describing the singer's basic ambivalence. Toward one woman or women in general is hard to tell.
I would say that it's simply another one of Morrissey's sad fictional tales - his little kitchen-sink dramas about unhappy and doomed relationships ("Jeane", "Girl Afraid"). So you might say that it does indeed represent ambiguous or plainly pessimistic attitude to love/relationships.

It amazes me what some people manage to read into the simplest of Morrissey's lyrics. I'm surprised that nobody ever managed to interpret the line "You're the one for me, fatty" as being some kind of big statement on homosexuality :p

[Jones]

"Lifeguard Sleeping" is an interesting song for me as I've never seen an interpretation that I agree with. I think, unusuallly for Morrissey, it's a metaphorical song. It also plays upon a theme that recurrs a lot in his work which (for whatever reason) people seem to want to ignore, the Girl or Woman of your Dreams.

In this song the Lifeguard is really the one that needs saving but he chooses to ignore the one person that could do so and lets her sink instead, just because he can't make the effort to respond to her.

The last line makes this explicit "When he awoke, The sea was calm, And another day passes like a dream", in other words, his life could have been very different, but he chose to carry on with the old one, which is no real life at all.

[nightandday]

Swallow on my neck...and why he left out some of the lyrics in the lyric book to it? morrissey's relationship with someone here i'm guessing
There was some talk about it very recently in this thread: http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showthread.php?t=65489&page=3&highlight=swallow

There's a lot of confusion and ambiguity in the song, don't you think? People have talked about the ambiguity between 'swallow on my neck' as 1) fake tattoo or/and 2) a lovebite. Some of the lines seem to point out to the latter, but it's interesting that Morrissey did have a fake tattoo of swallow on his hand, at least, at the time. I would love to know the symbolism of the swallow...But I think that tattoos (an old fascination: 'tattoed boy from Birkenhead') stand for something as well: my guess is, the (desired or actual) transformation from someone who lives their life in a cerebral way, to a person who can easily express themselves in a physical way (which probably includes sex, though it's not limited to it).

There is, however, another ambiguity about it that nobody ever mentions. If the song is about a relationship, who with? There seem to be two people mentioned in that song - "you" and "he" are clearly not the same person.

"I am a simple man
Not much to gain or lose
And I don't know why I held out
So long for me and you

Until he drew
A swallow on my neck
And more, I will not say
He drew
A swallow, deep and blue
And soon, everyone knew

(...)

You have been telling me
That I have been
Acting childish
Foolish, ghoulish and childish
Oh, I know, I know, I know !
I know, I know, I know
But I don't mind
I don't mind
I don't mind "

[nightandday]

"Lifeguard Sleeping" is an interesting song for me as I've never seen an interpretation that I agree with. I think, unusuallly for Morrissey, it's a metaphorical song. It also plays upon a theme that recurrs a lot in his work which (for whatever reason) people seem to want to ignore, the Girl or Woman of your Dreams.

In this song the Lifeguard is really the one that needs saving but he chooses to ignore the one person that could do so and lets her sink instead, just because he can't make the effort to respond to her.

The last line makes this explicit "When he awoke, The sea was calm, And another day passes like a dream", in other words, his life could have been very different, but he chose to carry on with the old one, which is no real life at all.
I always thought it had to be metaphorical, I just wasn't completely sure about the meaning, but your interpretation is the first I really find satisfying.

You are right about the recurring theme... Somehow people always ignore it when discussing "Southpaw". Do you have the impression that it's one of the Smiths/Morrissey songs where he is addressing himself as "you"?

The great thing about many of Morrissey's songs is that you often can't simply point out who is narrator or who they are addressing, it's not clear if Morrissey is somewhere in the song or what his attitude to his characters is... yet he might be identifying and projecting parts of himself in one or more of them. "Maladjusted" is a perfect example - I love that song, but I've never been sure what it means, even though I've read some interesting interpretations. Still, the closing lines are so haunting... maybe because he literally sings them in two difference voices. Do you think that he might be singing them from two points of view, maybe switching from one person to another?

"Maladjusted, maladjusted
never to be trusted
never to be trusted"
(falsetto: )
"There's nothing wrong with you
there's nothing wrong with you..."

[nightandday]

"Hand that Rocks the Cradle," conversely, I totally read as being about a smothering, abusive, incestuous relationship. It's fairly ambiguously written and I can see why some people read it otherwise. At any rate, I don't see why it bothered the press on such a personal level, it's obviously fiction since none of the band members had ever been married or had children, but eh.

I agree. But the most amazing thing about it is that there are actually quite a few people who - completely disregarding the ominous atmosphere of the song and the ambiguity of the lines such as "there never need be longing in your eyes/as long as the hand that rocks the cradle is mine", not to mention the last lines - see it as a beautiful and moving address of a devoted parent to a child! It's interesting that there seems to be such a thin line between what is seen as a devoted parental love, and what is seen as smothering /abusive relationship.

Incidentally, Morrissey's own "explanation" (in an a 1985 interview, Melody Maker) is probably the strangest one he's ever given about a song:

"RO: Were you being slightly flippant when you said your love songs were written from total guesswork?
No, I was being absolutely serious. Which isn't really funny.

RO: Where did a song like 'Hand That Rocks The Cradle' come from?
Well, that comes from a relationship I had that didn't really involve romance. So if we're talking about romance, well, I don't really know that much about it. But in other things, I'm quite capable of making an observation."

http://foreverill.com/interviews/1985/trial.htm

[Worm]

"The Hand That Rocks The Cradle" is addressed from a father to a child. The usual doses of ambiguity and vagueness should not detract anyone from the strongest, simplest reading of the song. Could there be incest involved? Certainly. Is there some mysterious meaning about the child who saved his life, and whatever it was that he returned to? I suppose.

But the most prominent theme in the song is the fierce protectiveness and melancholy tenderness the father feels for the child. The relationship described is a reversal of the usual one where the father skips out on the mother and child. The father's feelings for the child are not supposed to be felt by most men, hence it's another example of Morrissey smudging the lines between genders, or "male liberation" if you like. "The hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world" is William Ross Wallace's poem extolling the greatness of mothers. The Smiths song turns that on its head.

The idea that this is a grown-up relationship doesn't stand up to lines about shadows shimmying on ceilings and a wardrobe towering like a beast of prey, two distortions that would only frighten a young child. The song describes a pretty common situation: frightened child, storm outside, "monsters in the closet" so to speak, additional emotional distress of a missing parent. It's closer to Edgar Allan Poe than Dr. Spock, but that shouldn't deceive anyone into thinking this is an elaborate riddle concealing abuse of any kind. The "smothering" emotions of the father are not suffocating the child, they are meant to lead one indirectly to the darkness the song doesn't name-- that is, whatever caused the mother to leave.

And whatever that was, it wasn't incest. Mothers don't pack up and leave their children with a sexual predator unless they're dead. I guess the mother could be dead, but that takes the song into the realm of the macabre, all the more so if you believe that the father may have murdered her (or wished for her murder, as in a "Lolita" scenario). Such a reading is possible but it seems way out of character for Morrissey to have written a song like that.

Morrissey's explanation of the song about being a relationship that didn't really involve romance, to my ears, is meaningless. It's an evasion.

[sonof77]

I don't really know, but I always assumed Black-eyed susan was about a nihilistic trouble-maker who wears a lot of black eyeliner. One of those annoying goth chicks who doesn't believe in anything and always has an attitude. While Moz seems to be slagging her off the whole song, at the end he seems to be comparing himself with her "we were the first". I have no idea who it's about, but the LASID website suggest Siouxsie Sioux

so, there's my two cents, for what it's worth. I hope you weren't expecting an intelligent literary answer, b/c I'm too lazy for that on a saturday morning :)

As for a song I've never "got", I choose the endlessly vague, I Know Very Well How I Got My Name It's about Oscar and is a steal as well

[nightandday]

"The Hand That Rocks The Cradle" is addressed from a father to a child. The usual doses of ambiguity and vagueness should not detract anyone from the strongest, simplest reading of the song. Could there be incest involved? Certainly. Is there some mysterious meaning about the child who saved his life, and whatever it was that he returned to? I suppose.

But the most prominent theme in the song is the fierce protectiveness and melancholy tenderness the father feels for the child. The relationship described is a reversal of the usual one where the father skips out on the mother and child. The father's feelings for the child are not supposed to be felt by most men, hence it's another example of Morrissey smudging the lines between genders, or "male liberation" if you like. "The hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world" is William Ross Wallace's poem extolling the greatness of mothers. The Smiths song turns that on its head.

The idea that this is a grown-up relationship doesn't stand up to lines about shadows shimmying on ceilings and a wardrobe towering like a beast of prey, two distortions that would only frighten a young child. The song describes a pretty common situation: frightened child, storm outside, "monsters in the closet" so to speak, additional emotional distress of a missing parent. It's closer to Edgar Allan Poe than Dr. Spock, but that shouldn't deceive anyone into thinking this is an elaborate riddle concealing abuse of any kind.

Morrissey's explanation of the song about being a relationship that didn't really involve romance, to my ears, is meaningless. It's an evasion.
I never thought it could be about adult relationship. It is clearly about someone expressing their love for a child.

But I don't think one can disregard the ominous atmosphere and ambiguity; it's not that obvious in the printed lyrics, but I think it is very present in the recorded song. While there might not be any sexual abuse involved, the narrator is walking the thin line between devoted and selfless love, and overbearing, suffocating (you might say, very selfish) love. The narrator is saying: I will protect you from all the horrors of his world, dear child; and the world is, indeed, a frightening place. "a piano plays in the empty room/there'll be blood on the cleaver tonight (...) The wardrobe towers like a beast of prey").

"There never need be longing in your eyes
as long as the hand that rocks the cradle is mine".

These lines could mean:

1) As long as I am by your side, dear child, you will never lack anything - you will always be loved and cared for.

or:

2) As long as I am the one who takes care of you, you will never need anyone else...you should never need anyone else!

Even if the lyrics weren't written with such ambiguity in mind, they can very easily be read that way.

There are several other lines that have to, at least, make a listener think - such as "Your mother, she just never knew... I did my best for her, I did my best for her"?

[Worm]

2) As long as I am the one who takes care of you, you will never need anyone else...you should never need anyone else!

Fair enough, but you're using the word "never" in reference to "the hand that rocks the cradle"-- the child of course will one day not be in a cradle. Unless Morrissey is using the phrase "the hand that rocks the cradle" as a loose tag for total and perpetual domination, I don't see it as so controlling.

The song is creepy, I'll admit, but again I think you have to imagine what's actually happening in the song. A parent is comforting a frightened child. The overtones of gothic terror are used to heighten the song's emotional power, which I think is really a reflection of the father's state of mind in the absence of the mother. Also, I think the song is a dramatic monologue, the way a parent whispers words that a baby will not actually understand (except tonally), and therefore the words hardly carry a veiled warning not to try and escape the father's sphere of domination.

I'm going on a more general rule of thumb, which you also apparently have, which is that Morrissey's lyrics are usually best interpreted as simply as possible. A highly specific interpretation of the song which says that this is about a peculiar, abusive father/child relationship isn't necessarily wrong, but it's far less compelling than the more obvious one, which is that Morrissey was writing about a father's emotions in a more typically female role. If the father were a weird, perverted, or emotionally suffocating person it would tend to invalidate the idea of a father raising a child alone.

Finally, the dark, almost macabre tone of the song's words can also be attributed to something else you mentioned, the thin line between love and obsession, tenderness and violence, etc. "The Hand That Rocks The Cradle" is sung about a strong familial bond the same way that "Hand In Glove" is sung as "it's us against a world that wants to tear us to shreds". Morrissey's idea of love is always a life and limb affair.

[Worm]

"I Know Very Well How I Got My Name" is autobiographical. I'm not aware that it's stolen from anything. If it is I'd love to know from whence it was ripped.

About the line "When thirteen years old/Who dyed his hair gold", Morrissey once explained that he had done just that, and after a few attempts to get the color out, which resulted in even more kaleidoscopic hair problems, he was sent home from school. Curiously missing from that explanation were the beatings, scoldings, and other forms of punishment we're supposed to believe he incurred on a daily basis. I'm sure the journalist left those out for space considerations.

[Jones]

Morrissey's explanation of the song about being a relationship that didn't really involve romance, to my ears, is meaningless. It's an evasion.

Seems perfectly logical to me if he is talking about the relationship he had with his father. Again, it's a recurring theme. "The Youngest was the Most Loved" is all about smothering parents who won't allow the world to harm their children, but end up harming them more by overprotecting them.

[Worm]

Seems perfectly logical to me if he is talking about the relationship he had with his father. Again, it's a recurring theme. "The Youngest was the Most Loved" is all about smothering parents who won't allow the world to harm their children, but end up harming them more by overprotecting them.

If it's about his father, how does that square with his father not being a part of his life, and when around, telling Morrissey to "grow up, be a man/And shut [his] mealy mouth?"

Also, I guess what's coming to the fore here is the question of the child's age. Interpretations vary based on how old we think the child is; the song becomes less obsessional and overbearing the younger the child is. I happen to think the child in the song is an infant. Therefore, gothic atmospherics notwithstanding, the father's devotion is not unhealthy and in fact somewhat normal given his sense of desertion.

[nightandday]

Seems perfectly logical to me if he is talking about the relationship he had with his father. Again, it's a recurring theme. "The Youngest was the Most Loved" is all about smothering parents who won't allow the world to harm their children, but end up harming them more by overprotecting them.


If it's about his father, how does that square with his father not being a part of his life, and when around, telling Morrissey to "grow up, be a man/And shut [his] mealy mouth?"


I'm glad I am not the one who brought up Morrissey's relationship with his parents in the discussion - last time I mentioned it (in "People and things who influenced Moz" thread), everyone seemed very upset and accused me of accusing his mom and dad of being bad parents. :(

It's unlikely to be about his father, because, as Worm said, their relationship was nothing like the one described in the song; quite the opposite, they seem to be insufficiently close.

If we accept Jones' autobiographical explanation, I have to notice that the relationship described in the song is much more similar to Morrissey's relationship with his mother.

(Please don't shoot me.)

[Worm]

Hm. I can see how some of the imagery might have come from memories of growing up with his mother, but with Jacqueline around I don't know that Mrs. Morrissey was quite so single-minded in her devotion.

But having said that, I think Morrissey's mother lurks around a great number of Smiths songs. Until I found out that the original lyric was "there is a light in your eyes" and the blather about "hope", I had always interpreted "There Is A Light That Never Goes Out" to be about Morrissey's mother. And although I am not one to ignore strong contrary evidence, I'm afraid I still do.

[Christine]

Sorry to change the song but wasn't 'Handsome Devil' accused of being about underage rape which was very bizarre and a real shame. It's about sex and lust yes, but it sounds like it's sex or the longing for it with different people at different times. Someone who you liked at school, someone who asked you the time. And it's lust which is always forceful and the lyrics are brilliantly playful and provocative. One of those Moz songs which ends in a nice conclusion "There's more to life than books you know, but not much more - that is the essence of the song..."

[Still Tired]

"The Hand That Rocks The Cradle" is addressed from a father to a child. The usual doses of ambiguity and vagueness should not detract anyone from the strongest, simplest reading of the song. (...)

The idea that this is a grown-up relationship doesn't stand up to lines about shadows shimmying on ceilings and a wardrobe towering like a beast of prey, two distortions that would only frighten a young child. The song describes a pretty common situation: frightened child, storm outside, "monsters in the closet" so to speak, additional emotional distress of a missing parent. It's closer to Edgar Allan Poe than Dr. Spock, but that shouldn't deceive anyone into thinking this is an elaborate riddle concealing abuse of any kind. The "smothering" emotions of the father are not suffocating the child, they are meant to lead one indirectly to the darkness the song doesn't name-- that is, whatever caused the mother to leave.

Morrissey's explanation of the song about being a relationship that didn't really involve romance, to my ears, is meaningless. It's an evasion.

Now I can actually still imagine this song genuinely being about an adult relationship, it was my first impression I gained after not listening to the song very carefully, it has to be said, but I can still see how that interpretation can work. As I've mentioned elsewhere before, I thought 'hand that rocks the cradle' was a phrase being used purely in the metaphorical sense to describe the position of the dominant partner in the relationship. I can perfectly picture this couple sat together in a darkened room with the rain outside and the narrator whispering the words in a slightly menacing and threatening manner, and the 'childish' threats of the "bogey-man" and "wavering shadows" are again, metaphorical- just the exaggerated dangers of the outside world perhaps. And writing this now it occurs to me it perfectly describes the descending cloud of depression maybe- of the darkness of the night bringing out the monsters, but don't worry because the day-light will come and I'll be here to face another day with you. So it could be describing the demons inside his partners head and his pledge to stand by them through it. I don't know, I am being one of those annoying people reading too much into it?!

It's incredibly interesting to hear Morrissey describe it as being about a relationship that didn't involve romance, I hadn't read that before. Maybe he did just say that to calm the child abuse theories, but I can genuinely see a rather uncomfortable, strange and dominating relationship being portrayed that isn't about love, but a fervent devotion of some kind.

So to consider the latter part of the song, this is where some of my ideas fall down I guess, I can almost see a shift in the direction of the voice. Is this now the internal thoughts we're hearing? They seem rather oblique and much harder to interpret in a defined narrative. Originally I thought the part about 'all too soon I did return' after talking about the child, meant that he was considering/ had another child- too simplistic?! It almost sounds to me like he's moved on from a past relationship, one that clearly ended badly and now this one is going down the same misguided path with another child involved.

Ok, now I'm tying myself up in knots so I'll stop! I just love this song to bits; there can never be too many theories to consider in my eyes :)

[unruly boy]

Read 'Songs That Saved Your Life' and make you own conclusions.

THTRTC is a beautiful song by the way.

[nightandday]

Hm. I can see how some of the imagery might have come from memories of growing up with his mother, but with Jacqueline around I don't know that Mrs. Morrissey was quite so single-minded in her devotion.

But having said that, I think Morrissey's mother lurks around a great number of Smiths songs. Until I found out that the original lyric was "there is a light in your eyes" and the blather about "hope", I had always interpreted "There Is A Light That Never Goes Out" to be about Morrissey's mother. And although I am not one to ignore strong contrary evidence, I'm afraid I still do.
I am sure that she does lurk around many songs, as you said... It's often as obvious as can be - apart from all the Smiths songs that explicitly address 'mother' or mention someone's relationship with their mother (I Know It's Over, Shakespeare's Sister, The Queen Is Dead, Rubber Ring) or even Morrissey solo songs (Southpaw), there's also the early version of What Difference Does It Make. The first time they played the song, at Hacienda in February 1982, the last line wasn't "Oh, my sacred one", but "Oh, my sacred mother". It's also interesting that, according to "Songs That Saved Your Life", the first version of I Want The One I Can't Have contained a reference to matricide instead of a murder of a policeman.

But There Is A Light That Never Goes Out?! :eek: It never crossed my mind, and I don't believe so now. That song is about someone who is unhappy at home ("I never, never want to go home/because I haven't got one anymore"; "because it's not my home, it's their home, and I'm welcome no more") and who dreams that the person that they're in love with would help them get free of parents's influence and to start living their own life - "take me out tonight, where there's music and there's people who are young and alive", "because I want to see people and I want to see life". (I know I've practically quoted Morrissey's explanation of another song, "Shakespeare's Sister"). I really don't see why or how the line "There is a light that never goes out" would be interpreted as being about Morrissey's mother. BTW, I was surprised that Simon Goddard said that he always thought that line was about an actual light, until he learned that the original line was "there is a light in your eye"; I always thought the 'light' meant something like love or hope.

[nightandday]

Sorry to change the song but wasn't 'Handsome Devil' accused of being about underage rape which was very bizarre and a real shame. It's about sex and lust yes, but it sounds like it's sex or the longing for it with different people at different times. Someone who you liked at school, someone who asked you the time. And it's lust which is always forceful and the lyrics are brilliantly playful and provocative. One of those Moz songs which ends in a nice conclusion "There's more to life than books you know, but not much more - that is the essence of the song..."
It was The Sun that printed some silly story about Smiths songs "condoning paedophilia", but the source of the whole 'paedophilia controversy' was a journalist of The Sounds magazine called Dave McCullough, who was - would you believe it - an early supporter of The Smiths! In summer 1983, he reviewed one of their gigs, and, having misheard the lyrics to some songs, including "The Hand that Rocks...", wrote - as a supposedly positive review(!) - that "most of his word-packed lyrics are about child molestation, and more mature sexual experimentation. (...) The refrain 'Climb upon my knee, Sonny Boy' in another song is used as a child-molesting come on to a seven-year old in a park. This kind of ultra-violent, ultra-funny grime is just what is needed to pull rock'n'roll out of its current sloth". With supporters like these, who needs enemies... :rolleyes: The Sun took it from there, with an article that refered to a song that supposedly 'condoned paedophilia'; they managed to mix up several Smiths songs that they most probably haven't even heard (Handsome Devil, Reel Around the Fountain, and The Hand That Rocks the Cradle). The non-existing 'seven-year old in a park' popped up again in their article, and they claimed that Handsome Devil was about 'sexual molestation of young boys'?! :rolleyes:

Why would anyone read paedophilia in Reel Around The Fountain? Anyone with half a brain could understand that the line "It's time the tale were told of how you took a child and made him old" refers to a loss of innocence (a quite common theme in early Smiths songs), not to the narrator being an actual child. And how did they get the idea that Handsome Devil was about 'molestation of young boys'? It seems that someone heard the line "a boy in the bush is worth two in the hand/I think I can help you get through your exams" and made this connection: sex + presumed school setting ('exams') + the word 'boy' = molestation of schoolboys! They obviously didn't get the sexual double entendre in the line 'a boy in the bush is worth two in the hand' ;) which in itself is hilarious. (Besides, they probably had no idea what 'mammary glands' are. That's what happens when you use complicated words!) The song never mentions anyone's age. So, the argument about paedophilia rested on the mention of exams and scholarly room. Now, I don't know the British school system that well - do kids under 16 even take exams?? But anyway, wouldn't it be more likely that a person taking exams is in their late teens or early 20s?

I agree that Handsome Devil is a celebration of sex and lust. Morrissey said that " 'a boy in the bush' is addressed to a scholar: the message of the song is to forget the cultivation of the brain and to concentrate on the cultivation of the body". I wouldn't say that it's about longing for different people at different times - I think that, out of all of Morrissey's early lyrics, this one really sounds like it's not about any specific person or persons. There is nothing in the song that sounds particularly personal or autobiographical. I think that it's a perfect example of Morrissey's wish to 'write for everybody', as well as to write lyrics that would separate The Smiths from other bands of the time. Therefore he used words that are rarely used in pop music, such as 'mammary glands' or 'conjugal bed', and he deliberately made the genders of people in the song as ambiguous as possible, starting with the use of the adjective 'handsome' in the title: most male bands would not refer to the object of their desire as 'handsome', and many people would jump to the conclusion that 'handsome' must refer to a male, when in fact 'handsome' can also be used for women, particularly if they are striking, statuesque and healthy-looking, rather than cute, childlike and frail-looking ('pretty'). (The usage of 'handsome' for women was more common in 19th century - it's used that way in Jane Austen's novels, for instance.) He also made sure to include all kinds of sexual imagery: S&M ('I crack the whip...'), lines that could be seen as blatantly homoerotic, and those that could be blatantly heteroerotic; and it even seems at times that the narrator is not always of the same gender: 'let me get my hands on your mammary glands' seems to be addressed to a female, but the lines 'a boy in the bush is worth two in the hand/I think I can help you get through your exams' would be more likely to be a come-on made by a female speaking to a male (even though it is possible that it's the other way round).

[nightandday]

Now I can actually still imagine this song genuinely being about an adult relationship, it was my first impression I gained after not listening to the song very carefully, it has to be said, but I can still see how that interpretation can work. As I've mentioned elsewhere before, I thought 'hand that rocks the cradle' was a phrase being used purely in the metaphorical sense to describe the position of the dominant partner in the relationship. I can perfectly picture this couple sat together in a darkened room with the rain outside and the narrator whispering the words in a slightly menacing and threatening manner, and the 'childish' threats of the "bogey-man" and "wavering shadows" are again, metaphorical- just the exaggerated dangers of the outside world perhaps. And writing this now it occurs to me it perfectly describes the descending cloud of depression maybe- of the darkness of the night bringing out the monsters, but don't worry because the day-light will come and I'll be here to face another day with you. So it could be describing the demons inside his partners head and his pledge to stand by them through it. I don't know, I am being one of those annoying people reading too much into it?!

It's incredibly interesting to hear Morrissey describe it as being about a relationship that didn't involve romance, I hadn't read that before. Maybe he did just say that to calm the child abuse theories, but I can genuinely see a rather uncomfortable, strange and dominating relationship being portrayed that isn't about love, but a fervent devotion of some kind.

He didn't really have to say it to calm the child abuse theories, because the interview was in 1985, two years after the child abuse scandal. Those theories must had died down by that time. He could just have said that it was a pure work of fiction.

Here's a bigger chunk from that interview:


"EYF: What's behind the fierce outspokenness against the work ethic in your lyrics?

The realities of work, I think. The realities of being in a situation where you can't choose your employment, which is an awful way to be when you don't have any skills and you have to take what's dished out, take what's available. There's nothing worse in life than having no choice, I think. And this is tolerable, I think, in all areas except unemployment. When you have to take a job, even if it's a job you can mildly stomach, if you have to take it and you have no choice, merely the fact that you have no choice crushes your enthusiasm for doing the job.


EYF: Did your parents cram the work ethic down your throat when you were a child and so you are rebelling against that?
No. I lived with my mother, who didn't. She let me do what I wanted to do. She gave me absolutely full rein to be what I wanted to be, and that was very helpful. But, no... as a direct result of not wanting to take anything, I didn't work for years and years and years...

EYF: So your mother doesn't really resent your observations on your background?
To this day, she's completely behind everything I say.

MM: Does she recognise the things that you write about?
Completely. She dissects them, she completely dissects everything that happens. She reads every single interview. She produces long monologues... she's very, very much involved in what I do. And her's is the only opinion that I really take remotely seriously. So it's quite treasurable.

RO: Were you being slightly flippant when you said your love songs were written from total guesswork?
No, I was being absolutely serious. Which isn't really funny.

RO: Where did a song like 'Hand That Rocks The Cradle' come from?
Well, that comes from a relationship I had that didn't really involve romance. So if we're talking about romance, well, I don't really know that much about it. But in other things, I'm quite capable of making an observation.

RO: An observation, in the way that 'Girl Afraid' seems to be...
Yes. I think 'Girl Afraid' simply implied that even within relationships, there's no real certainty and nobody knows how anybody feels. People feel that just simply because they're having this cemented communion with another person that the two of you will become whole, which is something I detested. I hate that, that implication. It's not true, anyway. Ultimately, you're on your own, whatever happens in life, however you go through life. You die on your own. You have to go to the dentist on your own. It's like all the serious things in life are things that you feel on your own."

http://foreverill.com/interviews/1985/trial.htm



Read 'Songs That Saved Your Life' and make you own conclusions.

THTRTC is a beautiful song by the way.
I've read 'STSYL', but I don't know what you mean. Simon Goddard had nothing particularly interesting to say about meaning of that song.

It is, however, interesting that Morrissey wrote the lyrics much before he met Marr. Richard Boon (the owner of the New Hormones label and manager of The Buzzcocks, who knew Morrissey through Linder) has revealed (I think it was in the "Rise and Fall of The Smiths" documentary) that Morrissey sent him a home demo in 1980, which contained Morrissey singing, without any musical accompaniment, the lyrics that would become THTRTC, to a different melody. I suppose that the melody was probably written by Ian Devine from Ludus, because this biography/liner note http://www.ltmpub.freeserve.co.uk/dsbio.html mentions "Morrissey, who collaborated with Devine on pre- and proto-Smiths material..."

[underdog]

to be a bit off topic........

Worm, is your signature a Propagandhi reference?


Anyway, I was alwasy confused by 'November Spawned A Monster'

[Worm]

That song is about someone who is unhappy at home

I didn't mean that the song was about Morrissey's mother in particular, rather that he wrote it using emotional states borrowed from his own life. Now that I'm offering my interpretation, I should say that I don't regard TIALTNGO as strictly autobiographical. I'm basing my interpretation on the presence of his mother, obvious and less obvious, in many of the Smiths songs, since I think his relationship with her was crucially important to his writing about his adolescence. One other thing: there are one or two interview and lyric snippets which contradict a few of the things I say below. I know what they are and I'm sticking to my guns.

The song is about someone who is unhappy at home, yes, but more than that it's about powerlessness. The person in the song's intense desire to find freedom through a lover who can help him escape from home, even if it only results in the ultimate "release" of death, indirectly reflects the power of whatever it is holding the person back. The strength of our bonds is revealed by the amount of exertion needed to break them.

So why doesn't this person escape? Anyone so charged with passion that he would gladly die beneath the wreck of a ten-ton truck for love's sake shouldn't feel any qualms about asking for whatever he wanted to ask for in that darkened underpass; hatching a scheme to be with the lover on their own, leaving parents, school, and home behind; or, most obviously of all, packing up and leaving home on his own. These would come easy for anyone who was capable of feeling such extreme emotions.

Most likely these forms of escape don't occur to the person because he knows his situation doesn't allow for them. We can assume that the person in the song is a teenager, since not having a car, living at home, and the need to be with young people are teenagerly sort of things. All that would be enough to explain why he doesn't just up and leave. Running away is not something you do lightly. Most kids, no matter how badly they have it, don't run away. They realize they have nowhere to go.

Still, that love! Those passions! That longing to escape! With these burning in one's heart, leaving home, difficult as it may be, seems worth attempting. Morrissey gave us an idea of what such an escape might resemble in songs of leaving home such as "London" and "Half A Person".

Something stronger than these feelings holds him back. TIALTNGO is written from the vantage point of someone who has those tragically romantic longings but also understands that you don't escape the gravitational pull of home that easily. Most teenagers strain to break free of home, family, and everything familiar yet know instinctively that they must, in the end, stay where they are for awhile longer.

No matter how savagely angry I got at my parents, I never stopped living in their home, eating their food, benefiting from their graciousness-- even though at times it is no exaggeration to say I hated my existence. When you're a teenager a sense of life's vast opportunities mingles with the agonizing narrowness of one's horizons: the roads, the street lights, the trees, the houses, and every other hard fact of life that cuts you off from the rest of the world. You're grown up enough to have a will of your own, and you're powerless.

The last thing TIALTNGO is about is some all-consuming romantic passion for another person, even though that is part of the song's content. It's about home. It's about being young, wanting freedom, and knowing you can't have it. It's about that "strange fear" that holds you in place. The light which is not metaphorical but all too real is the light in the window you see when you're a teenager and you come home late at night, the taste of freedom still fresh in your mouth, knowing that you're willingly walking right back into captivity. As he put it two years later:


Home late/Full of hate/Despise the ties that bind

I believe this is why most of the song is about anger, desire, curiosity, and the promise of freedom, but then shifts to a slow fade-out while the song's title is repeated as if to emphasize, in an expression of lovely and tender fatality, that for all those romantic possibilities all endings will be the same.

Morrissey's mother enters into this the way most mothers (and fathers) would in the same situation. The unhappiness of living at home with people whom, after, one still loves. It's universal, but in any attempt to understand it I think it's natural to consider Morrissey's relationship to his mother. Remember that we're talking about a man who was deeply, incurably depressed for many years-- yet never left the warmth of his mother's home until he became famous. He must have felt the bittersweet ambivalence of those late-night homecomings all too often.

Although there are counterpoints to what I've written, I'm partially backed up, I think, by one key person. Derek Jarman understood the lyrics' deeper meaning. His video for the song superimposed the boundlessness of the ocean over a boy lying still, at home, on a bed or a sofa. The imagery perfectly conveys what the song really is: a dream of freedom in the mind of a prisoner all too aware of his cell.

http://i10.ebayimg.com/03/c/01/a2/6f/70_9.JPG


Worm, is your signature a Propagandhi reference?

Dead Kennedys.

[Dave]

time ago I made up an identical thread to this one...and it died...:(

i want to know more about such a little thing...

such a little thing (http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~moz/lyrics/bonadrag/suchalit.htm)

They don't mention though the different (little) things people keep between their legs including their brains. In my mind this one was always connected with Sweet and Tender Hooligan, the bicycle chain wielding, possibly illiterate subject of the song, with fumbling politeness. It feels like it's about a real person, to me. The words when I read them don't contain all the information I get when I hear him sing it, if that makes sense.

[Danny]

It's unlikely to be about his father, because, as Worm said, their relationship was nothing like the one described in the song; quite the opposite, they seem to be insufficiently close.

If we accept Jones' autobiographical explanation, I have to notice that the relationship described in the song is much more similar to Morrissey's relationship with his mother.

(Please don't shoot me.)

You really don't know that because Morrissey has never really spoken about his relationship with his parents. Where did you get that information from?

[Danny]

So why doesn't this person escape? Anyone so charged with passion that he would gladly die beneath the wreck of a ten-ton truck for love's sake shouldn't feel any qualms about asking for whatever he wanted to ask for in that darkened underpass; hatching a scheme to be with the lover on their own, leaving parents, school, and home behind; or, most obviously of all, packing up and leaving home on his own. These would come easy for anyone who was capable of feeling such extreme emotions.

Most likely these forms of escape don't occur to the person because he knows his situation doesn't allow for them. We can assume that the person in the song is a teenager, since not having a car, living at home, and the need to be with young people are teenagerly sort of things. All that would be enough to explain why he doesn't just up and leave. Running away is not something you do lightly. Most kids, no matter how badly they have it, don't run away. They realize they have nowhere to go.

Still, that love! Those passions! That longing to escape! With these burning in one's heart, leaving home, difficult as it may be, seems worth attempting. Morrissey gave us an idea of what such an escape might resemble in songs of leaving home such as "London" and "Half A Person".

Something stronger than these feelings holds him back. TIALTNGO is written from the vantage point of someone who has those tragically romantic longings but also understands that you don't escape the gravitational pull of home that easily. Most teenagers strain to break free of home, family, and everything familiar yet know instinctively that they must, in the end, stay where they are for awhile longer.

No matter how savagely angry I got at my parents, I never stopped living in their home, eating their food, benefiting from their graciousness-- even though at times it is no exaggeration to say I hated my existence. When you're a teenager a sense of life's vast opportunities mingles with the agonizing narrowness of one's horizons: the roads, the street lights, the trees, the houses, and every other hard fact of life that cuts you off from the rest of the world. You're grown up enough to have a will of your own, and you're powerless.

The last thing TIALTNGO is about is some all-consuming romantic passion for another person, even though that is part of the song's content. It's about home. It's about being young, wanting freedom, and knowing you can't have it. It's about that "strange fear" that holds you in place. The light which is not metaphorical but all too real is the light in the window you see when you're a teenager and you come home late at night, the taste of freedom still fresh in your mouth, knowing that you're willingly walking right back into captivity. As he put it two years later:


Home late/Full of hate/Despise the ties that bind

I believe this is why most of the song is about anger, desire, curiosity, and the promise of freedom, but then shifts to a slow fade-out while the song's title is repeated as if to emphasize, in an expression of lovely and tender fatality, that for all those romantic possibilities all endings will be the same.

Morrissey's mother enters into this the way most mothers (and fathers) would in the same situation. The unhappiness of living at home with people whom, after, one still loves. It's universal, but in any attempt to understand it I think it's natural to consider Morrissey's relationship to his mother. Remember that we're talking about a man who was deeply, incurably depressed for many years-- yet never left the warmth of his mother's home until he became famous. He must have felt the bittersweet ambivalence of those late-night homecomings all too often.

Although there are counterpoints to what I've written, I'm partially backed up, I think, by one key person. Derek Jarman understood the lyrics' deeper meaning. His video for the song superimposed the boundlessness of the ocean over a boy lying still, at home, on a bed or a sofa. The imagery perfectly conveys what the song really is: a dream of freedom in the mind of a prisoner all too aware of his cell.

http://i10.ebayimg.com/03/c/01/a2/6f/70_9.JPG



Dead Kennedys.

Ever considered There is a Light might be about a married man having an affair?

[Worm]

Ever considered There is a Light might be about a married man having an affair?

Clever! Adds an entirely different and interesting twist to the song, except I doubt a married man would need to ask anyone to "take him out tonight". But there's nothing in the song to disprove it's a married man. Or a married woman for that matter.

[Jose]

, except I doubt a married man would need to ask anyone to "take him out tonight".


Maybe if he's in an unhappy marriage?? :rolleyes:

[Worm]

Maybe if he's in an unhappy marriage?? :rolleyes:

If this poor unhappy soul can't jump in his own car and either (a) leave for greener pastures (b) visit a good divorce lawyer or (c) go cruising for some action on the side, then Morrissey has created a really pathetic character. Also, if his home is now "their home", it implies a wife and at least one child, in which case he feels so isolated and cut off he imagines that even his own spawn are against him. I think such a man could only be the "adult child" in the "sadistic grown-up domination" interpretation of "The Hand That Rocks The Cradle". This would, for me at least, cut into the dignity of the song; henceforward I would dream of a David Mamet tough guy slapping the son of a bitch in the face and telling him "Coffee's for closers!"

[Jones]

If this poor unhappy soul can't jump in his own car and either (a) leave for greener pastures (b) visit a good divorce lawyer or (c) go cruising for some action on the side, then Morrissey has created a really pathetic character. Also, if his home is now "their home", it implies a wife and at least one child, in which case he feels so isolated and cut off he imagines that even his own spawn are against him. I think such a man could only be the "adult child" in the "sadistic grown-up domination" interpretation of "The Hand That Rocks The Cradle". This would, for me at least, cut into the dignity of the song; henceforward I would dream of a David Mamet tough guy slapping the son of a bitch in the face and telling him "Coffee's for closers!"

Morrissey's work is full of stories about the inadequacies of men, from "Stop Me" to "Nobody Loves Us".

[Sunbags]

Can you post the entire interview? I've read so many interesting quotes from it, but I've never seen the actual interview.

as for Lifeguard Sleeping... it really seems to be one of the most ambiguous Morrissey songs. I never heard cruelty in his voice... To me, 'doesn't she see, he's had such a busy day...' seemed sarcastic, and I thought he was actually sympathizing with the girl. "she swam too far against the tide...", "she was nobody's nothing" sounded ironic and very sad. I thought it was one of the songs written about a female character who he empathizes/partly identifies with (as "November..." or "This Night Has Opened My Eyes"). I was surprised to learn that Johnny Rogan and others all seem to see it in a completely opposite way.

But that quote is quite interesting... Because his implication in that interview seems to be that there was an actual girl that he himself metaphorically let 'sink'... However, I believe it's still possible to sympathize with people even while you are the one who has hurt them...

It's one of those song that I wouldn't claim to have a definite reading of, it can be interpreted in so many different ways.

Sorry about the delay...................busy, busy, busy! Here ya go my dear!

http://www.oz.net/~moz/quotes/lesinroc.htm

[Roma De Moz]

I have a question about "Now My Heart If Full", does anybody know what the line
"Your Father cracks a joke
And in the usual way
Empties the room "
has got to do with the rest of the song?

Morrissey is using the image of the family unit as a metaphor for something more autobiographical. The whole line has an almost funeral-like tone to it; whenever I hear those lines I imagine a grave faced family dressed in black, uncomfortably seated in the front room of the 'house' and akwardly shuffling away from the useless joking of 'the Father', who has attempted to lighten the mood after the death of a loved one, or some other traumatic event. I think Morrissey is inhabiting the role of 'Father', and 'everyone in the house' are the listeners, fans, critics etc, who 'empty the room' because once again, after all these years, they are still having to listen to the wry, self deprecating whinings of an old man. If this is true, Morrissey is still being self deprecating, and the 'joke' in question is a direct play on the whimsical humour found in his sonds. Remember also, that it was Vauxhall and I that marked his transition into 'elder statesman', and I think the use of the term 'Father' is also catered as refrence to his acute awareness of that.

[Roma De Moz]

just like: some girls are bigger than others.
Is he serious? Is he joking? etc.

I always took the song to be about the intimidation of female sexuality: The protagonist, which could very well be Morrissey himself, 'has just discovered' (to his suprise and horror!) 'that some girls are bigger than others', namely that some girls are buxxom, aggresive and forthcoming in their sexual presence, and not merely willowly, like the frontman himself.

The song could fit the genre of failed love once again, with the protagonist finally having what little left in him to muster up the courage and confront a potential partner, and has discovered through his first and only 'real attempt', that he has bitten of more than he can chew.

Morrissey sings the song in a barritone, almost lazy vocal, which implies to me he's only half-serious intent of the songs meaning, there's also the quote there from 'Carry on Cleo' ("As Anthony said to Cleopatra...as he opned a crate of ale!). Anyone who merely knows of the actual Shakespeare play knows of the sexual aggression and power that the female, Cleopatra, used in her domination over the male, Anthony. True, Morrissey defies immediate expectations by making it about the Carry On comedy, but the idea of it holding true to the theme of sexual intimidation holds ground.

Anyone guess how 'Send me your pillow/the one that you dream on" fits into this little theory of mine?

[Danny]

I always took the song to be about the intimidation of female sexuality: The protagonist, which could very well be Morrissey himself, 'has just discovered' (to his suprise and horror!) 'that some girls are bigger than others', namely that some girls are buxxom, aggresive and forthcoming in their sexual presence, and not merely willowly, like the frontman himself.

The song could fit the genre of failed love once again, with the protagonist finally having what little left in him to muster up the courage and confront a potential partner, and has discovered through his first and only 'real attempt', that he has bitten of more than he can chew.

Morrissey sings the song in a barritone, almost lazy vocal, which implies to me he's only half-serious intent of the songs meaning, there's also the quote there from 'Carry on Cleo' ("As Anthony said to Cleopatra...as he opned a crate of ale!). Anyone who merely knows of the actual Shakespeare play knows of the sexual aggression and power that the female, Cleopatra, used in her domination over the male, Anthony. True, Morrissey defies immediate expectations by making it about the Carry On comedy, but the idea of it holding true to the theme of sexual intimidation holds ground.

Anyone guess how 'Send me your pillow/the one that you dream on" fits into this little theory of mine?

I always thought the song was more Morrissey being sarcastic about the way women were generally seen in society where their physicality is generally more discussed than anything else.

Sort of like, "Yes some women are bigger than others, OK we've got that sorted, now can we move on a bit?"

The reference to dreaming is in opposition to this, putting what is going on in people's minds before their physical attributes. He wants to know what the woman's dreams are rather than her cup size.

[amaranta]

My explaination couldn't be written better than someone who has already written it:


- LASID (http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~moz/lyrics/maladjus/ammuniti.htm)


How about... Dagenham Dave?

I've heard that dagenham dave was a black londoner punk that hanged out with the Stranglers and introduced them to french poetry like Rimbaud etc...Quite an interesting character and what a musical name!

[nightandday]

You really don't know that because Morrissey has never really spoken about his relationship with his parents. Where did you get that information from?
I thought we had been through all that already on this thread (http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showthread.php?t=65098&highlight=linder) It's well known that his mother was quite involved with her son's career. Morrissey's strong attachment to his mother is something that a number of people that knew him have observed (scroll to post #11 on page 1). Do you believe that all those people (his schoolfriend from St.Mary's, people who worked for Rough Trade, his ex-manager Gail Colson...) were lying?! And Morrissey has, in fact, spoken a few times about his relationship with his parents. Or rather, he's talked about 'parents' and he's talked quite a lot about his mother, and how wonderful she was, and what music she liked (Roxy Music), his mother this his mother that... I don't remember him ever talking much specifically about his father. The only thing he said was that his dad worked as a hospital porter (when he was asked about his father's job in a Smiths interview); and I remember that he was asked once or twice how he got along with his father and how often they saw each other. He answered that, yes, they see each other constantly; does his father follow his career? yes, he has all the records, posters and interviews.

Morrissey says he was brought up by his mother's side of the family. His words.

Word magazine, 2003 http://www.alinkarel.plus.com/smiths/moz2.html pages 5-6

"Your music has often been quite hard on your upbringing. Barbarism Begins At Home is a howl of protest against being beaten, the child in Used To Be A Sweet Boy goes wrong in some unspecified way, Late Night, Maudlin Street is a straightforward attack on the misery of the family home...how does your mum feel about all this?
Early on the music was quite harsh, yes, but that has changed. Generally she likes it, although it is all autobiographical. I did get the clip around the head occasionally, as in the song, but I probably deserved it. I was a very noisy child. I always stood in front of his television, I wouldn't go to bed, and then I discovered music at the age of six and played it loud, continuously, all day from that point onwards. I would sing, non-stop, which must have been unbearable. I was surprised they were so tolerant of me, to be honest.
Is your father still around? Are you like him?
Yes, he is. And yes, I am, in certain respects. Why?
Because your Irishness is coming to the fore. You've written a song called Irish Blood, English Heart, you've started to say "Jaysus", you now pronounce the word "any" to rhyme with "Annie"...
That's interesting. But even when The Smiths recorded Please Please Please Let Me Get What I Want there were thousands of letters saying "This is Foster and Allen" or something similar. I've never had a Manchester accent. I've always had a very soft voice and I was raised by my mother's side of the family, who were very Irish. I never sounded Mancunian, for which I thank God every day.
What does your father do?
He does...certain things. Useful things. Let's leave it at that."
:confused:


And Sunbags has just provided me with another interesting quote (thanks for the interview, Sunbags!) :

Les Inrockuptibles, 1995
http://www.oz.net/~moz/quotes/lesinroc.htm


"Q: Is your incurable sadness the result of your past ?
M: All comes from my past.
Q: Is there a launching factor, a determining event ?
M: Yes... and all the work set about with the psychoanalysts talking about my childhood to reconstruct certain situations. In this, these experiences were successful: they did me much good even if some wounds remain buried deep inside me. I'll certainly need centuries to settle everything.
Q: Can you be more precise about the nature of these events ?
M: There have been several of them.
Q: Things that happened at school ?
M: Yes, at school, but as well and especially at home.
Q: Is the answer to be found in your song Used To Be A Sweet Boy ? One day something went wrong ?
M: That's precisely what the shrinks wanted to find (embarrassed laughter)... Myself, I don't know very well what went wrong. I have difficulty understanding, it's so complex. Even my parents would be unable to explain what went wrong. In the song, these are the parents who speak and deny all responsibility ("I'm not to blame"). To me, though, parents must assume blame: they bring the children up, not the other way around.
Q: Do your parents feel responsible for your constant state of sadness ?
M: It pains my mother a lot. Not that she feels responsible but she's perfectly aware of my state of dissatisfaction. She'd love so much to see me happy and totally fulfilled. Yet, nothing is her fault.
Q: What about your father ?
M: ...(He pulls a wry face, keeps silent and makes a wide gesture of the hand as a signal of defence. Then indicates the microphone on the table shaking his head, unable to speak. Follows an endless silence.)"

Well, I don't know how accurate the journalist's description of Morrissey's behaviour was, but in any case he didn't seem to have anything to say about his father.


And tell me, don't you find this weird (Q interview, September 1992 http://motorcycleaupairboy.com/interviews/1992/isay.htm ) :

"Q: Morrissey & Marr: The Severed Alliance. Have you read it?
Well a friend of mine had a copy and I squinted at it across the room for three days and then curiosity drove me to the index. Just to see who'd blabbed.

Q: Were you shocked?
Certain things shocked me. It's promoted as the definitive story of The Smiths. Of course, the only definitive story of The Smiths is my story, if ever that's told. It seems like he - Johnny Rogan - has interviewed anybody who basically bears a grudge against me. Any of the people who've been close to me over the past decade he has not got near. So I saw more reviews and I felt very sad because they were saying, At last! Here is the truth! The level of information that this person has unearthed! Basically, it's 75 percent blatant lies. The rest is reasonably factual.
I made a statement when the book was published which said, Anybody who buys this book wants their head tested. As far as I can tell, according to sales figures, a lot of people need their heads tested. A lot of people have bought it and, of course, a lot of people will believe it. But I hope, more so, that he dies in a hotel fire.

Q: Presumably you were approached to participate in the book?
Well of course Johnny Rogan has been explaining to the press that he had a conversation with me. I've never met him and no conversation has ever taken place. One night the phone rang and he said, This is J... and I put the phone down. He wrote me a series of letters over a three-year period, all of which I scarcely opened.

Q: Did he approach your mother? The book isn't too flattering about her.
Yes, he did. But she didn't speak to him. He didn't speak to any of my family. He spoke to people on the periphery of the whole thing and he spoke to Johnny Marr. Later, after the interview had taken place, I spoke to Johnny Marr about it and he regretted having done the interview enormously.

Q: Did your mother read it?
No. Suffice to say, if she had such things as a bargepole..."


:confused: Rogan "didn't speak to anyone" from Morrissey's family?! If Morrissey had read a page or two, or even Acknowledgements, he would have known that his father, Peter Morrissey, and his paternal aunts, Ann, Ellen and Patricia, were interviewed for the book, and that two of them (Patricia and Ann) received thanks for providing the old photos from the family albums. So, during the time that he was making sure that none of his family (in this case, just the mother's side of the family?) talk to Johnny Rogan, he failed to find out that his father was interviewed for the book?! I have to wonder how often they actually talked to each other?!

I don't really see what proof are you actually looking for that Morrissey was and is much closer to his mother than to his father. Do you expect him to actually say in an interview: "You see, me and my father were never really that close"?!

[nightandday]

Clever! Adds an entirely different and interesting twist to the song, except I doubt a married man would need to ask anyone to "take him out tonight". But there's nothing in the song to disprove it's a married man. Or a married woman for that matter.
Good thinking! I was going to say the same. Why would we assume that the narrator in the song is male? Just because the person who wrote and sang the song is male? But we've just definitely established that the narrator in the song does not have to be the same as the singer/songwriter.


If this poor unhappy soul can't jump in his own car and either (a) leave for greener pastures (b) visit a good divorce lawyer or (c) go cruising for some action on the side, then Morrissey has created a really pathetic character. Also, if his home is now "their home", it implies a wife and at least one child, in which case he feels so isolated and cut off he imagines that even his own spawn are against him. I think such a man could only be the "adult child" in the "sadistic grown-up domination" interpretation of "The Hand That Rocks The Cradle". This would, for me at least, cut into the dignity of the song; henceforward I would dream of a David Mamet tough guy slapping the son of a bitch in the face and telling him "Coffee's for closers!"
It's interesting how the possible interpretations of the song may vary depending on the social conditions of the listener. You assumed that the narrator in the song is a teenager, because he/she hasn't got a car or a flat of her/his own. That's an assumption that I would expect most Americans (and I suppose, most people from Western Europe as well) to make. But I can assure you that the majority of Serbian people in their 20s and a lot of them in their 30s could easily identify with the situation, because most people don't have a flat of their own (it's not that easy to get one), and many, many of them are living with their parents. (Cars aren't something that everybody is expected to have, many people have cars but even more people use public transport and feel perfectly OK with it; and it's certainly not usual for a family to have more than one car.) Besides, many people can't find jobs (or jobs that they could make a living from) and are supported by their parents well into their 30s. It's kind of an 'extended adolescence'. :D Even some people who are married and have kids still have their parents living with them. There are good sides to it - why would you need a babysitter when you can always dump your kids with the grandparents? :p So, an adult, even a married man/woman could very well identify witht the situation in the song. "Their home" would not have to mean "the home of my spouse and my children"; it might also mean "my parents' home"; or, if it is about trying to find a way out of an unhappy marriage, "my spouse and my parents' home" or "my spouse and my in-laws' home"!!

Another interesting question is, if narrator is a married woman, would you find her as pathetic as a man in the same situation?

[nightandday]

Anyway, I was alwasy confused by 'November Spawned A Monster'
Well, if you're asking why november, I have no idea. As for the general meaning of the song: Morrissey said it was his version of "Frankenstein" by The New York Dolls. He always had an affinity for outsiders and "monsters" of all kinds, and in this song his main character is a girl who is physically disabled and deformed. It's not entirely clear how exactly - but I suppose it must be some really serious deformity she was born with; we know that she cannot walk (she's in the wheelchair), but it must be more than that, because she is referred to as a 'monster' and 'so ugly' that nobody could bear to kiss her on the mouth... or 'anywhere'. The tragedy of her situation is very vividly described: she feels she is never going to experience love, because nobody could ever fall in love with her; she must have been exposed to many cruel remarks and bad treatment since her birth, or to pity and sympathy, which really does not make her feel much better; and, in any case, as an oddity, she has always been the subject of idle talk. Even if her situation could somehow change, all this has probably made her emotionally damaged ("what can make good all the bad that's been done?"). I assume that she is also poor ("she'll never be rich or beautiful"), which means that she is also denied the comfort and, possibly, medical treatment that she might have if she was born in a rich family. The narrator has a hope in some kind of happiness/success for her, but it's a modest one: just that she would one day be free to go out, walk the streets, choose her own clothes for herself.

There is, however, another aspect to this song: even though, on the surface, it is one of songs where Morrissey is just a storyteller, I've always thought that the emotional impact of the song comes from his identification with his main character. While she is physically an oddity, he felt all through his adolescence (when most people in Manchester thought of him as a local weirdo) and later, that he was seen as some kind of oddity, that he might be somehow psychologically 'freakish'; even in that Les Inrockuptibles interview (thanks again, Sunbags :D ) he complained that people regarded him as somehow abnormal. A "monster", you might say. Therefore he can identify the characters who populate his songs, with all kinds of outsiders, "monsters" and people who are regarded as "different" in this or that way. I always felt that an autobiographical note was present in the lines such as:

"Sleep on and dream of Love
because it's the closest you will
get to love "

or

"But Jesus made me, so
Jesus save me from
pity, sympathy
and people discussing me"

or

"what can make GOOD
all the BAD that's been done?"


actually, Morrissey kind of confirmed my interpretation with some of his lyric changes when singing live on some occasions, especially with this lyric change (from "Live in Earl's Court": )

"But Jesus made me, so he should save me from pity, sympathy and idiots discussing me, yes I am a freak and nothing can make good of the bad that's been done".

[Dave]

General speaking, many times when writers say they don't write specifically, in order to allow the song to mean different things to different people, I think it's a cop-out. I think that they either don't want to say exactly what the meaning is or maybe they aren't sure of it themselves.

Now I think I might have been wrong, because almost any Morrissey song has an obvious meaning to me, and one of the reasons I fell in love with the lyrics in the first place is because I thought they were very specific, but the meanings some find obvious are completely different than the way I had interpreted the song, and I do see the value more of not having Morrissey sitting down and explaining the meaning of the lyrics line by line.

[wolve]

I've always had a bit of trouble with the ideas behind "November spawned a monster" and "At Amber". The idea of comparing these "disabled" people to himself (not physical) is rather selfish (from the viewpoint of them); I can imagine a disabled can be upset about this (just like in At Amber), something along the lines of: "what the hell are you complaining about? you have nothing to worry!" but then again we cannot know how excrutiating (and limiting) his mind is to himself.

[Paulc]

I've always had a bit of trouble with the ideas behind "November spawned a monster" and "At Amber". The idea of comparing these "disabled" people to himself (not physical) is rather selfish (from the viewpoint of them); I can imagine a disabled can be upset about this (just like in At Amber), something along the lines of: "what the hell are you complaining about? you have nothing to worry!" but then again we cannot know how excrutiating (and limiting) his mind is to himself.

Yeah and i think this theme is carried on in "i have forgiven jesus"

By the way the final line of November makes me cry almost every time - the most optimistic line i think he has ever proclaimed.

[Roma De Moz]

I've always had a bit of trouble with the ideas behind "November spawned a monster" and "At Amber". The idea of comparing these "disabled" people to himself (not physical) is rather selfish (from the viewpoint of them); I can imagine a disabled can be upset about this (just like in At Amber), something along the lines of: "what the hell are you complaining about? you have nothing to worry!" but then again we cannot know how excrutiating (and limiting) his mind is to himself.

It's a difficult matter to reconcile, but excluding At Amber for a moment, I think ...Monster aims for something a bit different. Morrissey is struggling with his pity for the 'twisted child's' plight, alongside his revulsion for the child's physical deformity's. He bemoans the child's state, but at the same time, he cannot escape the instinctive and gut-like response to her physical state; to turn away in disgust. Yes, aspects of the song are cruel, but not unjustly. What Morrissey was clearly going for was an entirely honest, sincere approach to the subject matter of the seriously disabled. When he says 'so ugly, so ugly' he is speaking from the point of view of someone who could not possibly confront an intimate moment with such a person, which I think is a fair point if we all really ask ourselves the same question. In the end, all the child has to do is 'sleep on and dream of love'.

[Danny]

I don't really see what proof are you actually looking for that Morrissey was and is much closer to his mother than to his father. Do you expect him to actually say in an interview: "You see, me and my father were never really that close"?!

I think he probably is closer to his mother than his father. As most children are, especially ones whose parents have split and they end up only living with their mothers. I have never read anything from Morrissey that said to me that he was "insufficently close" to his father. In fact, from the little he has said, I've got completely the opposite impression.

I've read plenty of speculation about it from journalists, but I tend to think that is more to do with the stereotype they have of him being a gay man so he must not be close to his father and be too close to his mother (as all gay men are, of course :rolleyes: )

And I don't set any store by what other people say as I wouldn't set any store by what people say about my relationship with my own parents.

I don't see how Rogan would have got much out of Morrissey's paternal aunts if it's true that he was only close to his mothers side of the family. Journalists like Rogan have a vested interest in persuading us they know more than they do. Yes, Rogan interviewed Peter Morrissey but it was pretty obvious he refused to talk directly about his son, the only quotes that appear in the book are about his life before Morrissey was even born, jobs he had and his footballing career.

[nightandday]

I think he probably is closer to his mother than his father. As most children are, especially ones whose parents have split and they end up only living with their mothers.
He was 17 when his parents split. Not exactly a child. So that doesn't explain why he was 'brought up by the mother's side of the family''.


I have never read anything from Morrissey that said to me that he was "insufficently close" to his father. In fact, from the little he has said, I've got completely the opposite impression.

I have - those interviews from Les Inrockuptibles and Word, for instance. If your impression is that Morrissey is not insufficiently close to his father (even the opposite?!), OK, that's your impression, although I really don't see how you came to that conclusion. Of course, you might say that it's usual for the majority of men, or the majority of working-class men not to be particularly close to their fathers... in which case, I would have to ask, maybe the majority of men are not close enough to their fathers?



I don't see how Rogan would have got much out of Morrissey's paternal aunts if it's true that he was only close to his mothers side of the family. Journalists like Rogan have a vested interest in persuading us they know more than they do. Yes, Rogan interviewed Peter Morrissey but it was pretty obvious he refused to talk directly about his son, the only quotes that appear in the book are about his life before Morrissey was even born, jobs he had and his footballing career.
He got the some of the photos from them. The point I was making was, his father was interviewed for the book, but Morrissey had no idea, even though he was adamant that his family should not participate in it, isn't that strange? Unless he didn't have much contact with his father.


I've read plenty of speculation about it from journalists, but I tend to think that is more to do with the stereotype they have of him being a gay man so he must not be close to his father and be too close to his mother (as all gay men are, of course :rolleyes: )
What?? Do people actually believe that? :confused: That's just utter rubbish. (yes, I understand it is not your belief, but you imply that it's a widespread belief? There are plenty examples of men who are extremely close to their mothers with the father is being absent... and most of them aren't gay. I don't think that men decide to have sex with other men because their mum was too protective of them, or that they decide they prefer to have sex with women because their dad took them to a lot of football games. :rolleyes: P.S. are women who are particularly close to their fathers ('daddy's little girls') supposed to 'turn' into lesbians?!

But any problems in relationship with one's parents will most likely have a hell of a lot of effect on one's adult relationships and emotioanl life (which can manifest itself in different ways). The phenomenon of particularly strong mother-son bonds in the (relative or literal) absence of a father is not exactly an unknown phenomenon, books and articles have been written about it.

Anyway, I don't see how stories of Morrissey's relationships with his parents could be a part of a stereotype of him as a 'gay man'. None of the people who actually knew him, whether in his adolescence or in his adulthood, ever said or implied that they thought he as gay. But quite a few of them have commented on his strong attachment to his mother.

And I don't see why Johnny Rogan would be eager to prove that Morrissey wasn't close enough to his father if it was just a part of a 'gay man stereotype'. I never got the impression that Rogan believes Morrissey to be gay, and "Severed Alliance" certainly does nothing to suggest that.

[Worm]

Another interesting question is, if narrator is a married woman, would you find her as pathetic as a man in the same situation?

Yes.

The key words in figuring out the relationship between the "I" in the song to whatever is causing the "I" to want to escape are "their home". Unless we assume that there are aunts and uncles staying with them or that there's a beloved Yorkshire terrier shared by the couple, if the "I"-- a married man or woman, it doesn't matter-- refers to his or her home as "their home" it implies a spouse and at least one child. In which case the "I" is abandoning a child and not just a spouse; a family unit tied to a place and not just a domicile. Wanting to escape a person one doesn't love any more is understandable (as in "Jeane" for example), but refusing to stay and fight for one's child, and in fact preferring a fetishized death in a car wreck, is something I find pathetic. Any deplorable conditions which would justify such a desperate wish for escape, even so grim as to make a child a thing to be left behind like a pair of unwanted shoes, are not specified in the song. Without such context, the only way "There Is A Light That Never Goes Out" can be read as anything but a disgustingly infantile wish for freedom from "their home" is if the "I" has no parental commitments. A teenager, in other words.

[Danny]

He was 17 when his parents split. Not exactly a child. So that doesn't explain why he was 'brought up by the mother's side of the family''.


Yes it does. Their marriage obviously was on the rocks for years. They divorced when Morrissey was 17, we don't know when they split up or whether they might have had a few splits. Also, all working class families tend to spend more time with the mother's in-laws. When women have babies they tend to get closer to their mothers, even if it's just to use as a babysitter.


I have - those interviews from Les Inrockuptibles and Word, for instance. If your impression is that Morrissey is not insufficiently close to his father (even the opposite?!), OK, that's your impression, although I really don't see how you came to that conclusion. Of course, you might say that it's usual for the majority of men, or the majority of working-class men not to be particularly close to their fathers... in which case, I would have to ask, maybe the majority of men are not close enough to their fathers?

The majority of men aren't as close to their fathers. It's the most problematic of family relationships probably because of high expectations and competition. But none of those quotes tell us Morrissey wasn't close to his father.


He got the some of the photos from them. The point I was making was, his father was interviewed for the book, but Morrissey had no idea, even though he was adamant that his family should not participate in it, isn't that strange? Unless he didn't have much contact with his father.

How do you know Morrissey didn't know? Rogan's way of contacting people was to keep ringing them up and hassling them until they gave in. Johnny Marr said he used the same tactics on his family, that's why he eventually gave in and gave an interview. How do you know Morrissey's Dad just didn't give a spur of the moment interview over the phone and then told his son later? It obviously wasn't an in-depth interview seeing as nothing about Morrissey was talked about. Morrissey wouldn't have been aware of Rogan's intentions from the beginning so he might not have been able to warn his family in advance.



What?? Do people actually believe that? :confused: That's just utter rubbish. (yes, I understand it is not your belief, but you imply that it's a widespread belief?


Yes, it's a widespread cliche/stereotype. Think Kenneth Williams.



There are plenty examples of men who are extremely close to their mothers with the father is being absent... and most of them aren't gay. I don't think that men decide to have sex with other men because their mum was too protective of them, or that they decide they prefer to have sex with women because their dad took them to a lot of football games. :rolleyes: P.S. are women who are particularly close to their fathers ('daddy's little girls') supposed to 'turn' into lesbians?!

But any problems in relationship with one's parents will most likely have a hell of a lot of effect on one's adult relationships and emotioanl life (which can manifest itself in different ways). The phenomenon of particularly strong mother-son bonds in the (relative or literal) absence of a father is not exactly an unknown phenomenon, books and articles have been written about it.

Anyway, I don't see how stories of Morrissey's relationships with his parents could be a part of a stereotype of him as a 'gay man'. None of the people who actually knew him, whether in his adolescence or in his adulthood, ever said or implied that they thought he as gay. But quite a few of them have commented on his strong attachment to his mother.


But journalists have decided he is gay. So they impose these stereotypes onto him. They make the person fit the cliche. So he must be too close to his mother. He must always be writing about rough boys (how many songs has he actually done that?), it must be a complete surprise that he is interested in and is good at sport. He only has male fans who are all in love with him. He moved to LA because it has a thriving gay scene. He lives in a "gay" house.

Look at the way they treats artists who have come out as gay. They can't even mention their name without putting "gay" in front of it and if they are not friends with Madonna there's something wrong with them. People have to fit into their boxes.



And I don't see why Johnny Rogan would be eager to prove that Morrissey wasn't close enough to his father if it was just a part of a 'gay man stereotype'. I never got the impression that Rogan believes Morrissey to be gay, and "Severed Alliance" certainly does nothing to suggest that.
Rogan wasn't eager to prove that Morrissey wasn't close to his father. It's other writers that have tried to do that.

All I know is I've never read one disparaging quote from Morrissey about his father. The nearest is some journalist saying he pulled a face when asked about him. :rolleyes:

[dazzak]

As for "November Spawned A Monster", I've always thought it had some Wilde influences that, while not integral or central to the song's seemingly simple conceit (Morrissey's musings on the life of a young disabled woman), are interesting nonetheless.

Obviously, there's thematic similarities between "November" and The Birthday Of The Infanta. In fact, I'd guess that Morrissey was perhaps particularly infatuated with this story at the time he wrote "November" - assuming his current Wilde obsession is cyclical - and it was this that spurred him on to emulate his hero and broach the same topic (albeit in a very Morrissey and pop music kind of way).

Also - this is probably an even longer shot - perhaps in keeping with the Wildean theme of the song, Morrissey chose to use another suitable part of Wilde's catalogue as the basis or hook for the song (ie "November Spawned A Monster").

This popped into my head the last time I read The Picture Of Dorian Gray, particularly the beginning of chapter 14, the morning after Gray kills Hallward, as it's only at the beginning of this chapter do we come to know that the events of the previous night occurred in the month of November (something like "the mellow November sun came streaming into the room" is the line). One could argue that it is not Hallward's painting that became the monster on that night (it's the first time, I believe, anyone but Gray has seen the hideousness of the painting, thus making it a truth in one respect - the monster of the painting is truly born), but Gray as he destroys any shred of humanity he had left. Subsequently, you could say the monster of Dorian Gray finally and fully emerges on that fateful November night.

Of course, conversely, there's a very literal, more straightforward explanation in that Dorian Gray was indeed born in the month of November (November 9 to be exact). This takes away from the figurative fun of the former November explanation, but I don't see why they can't work in tandem.

You can then compare how Moz and Wilde approach the subject (ie the conflict between Aestheticism and humanism, the reactions of those around the character etc), but I really couldn't be arsed.

[Worm]

"November spawned a monster" is another way of saying "fate" or "genetics" have "spawned a monster". No one is responsible. It underscores the objective inhumanity of how the girl's condition is perceived, as well as why the girl turns to Jesus instead of her mother or father.

But Wilde is always a useful candidate for inspirational sources. Assuming he reads Wilde.

[nightandday]

Yes, it's a widespread cliche/stereotype. Think Kenneth Williams.
I don't really know much about him... Actually, I wouldn't even know about him at all if he hadn't been mentioned in articles about Morrissey.


But journalists have decided he is gay. So they impose these stereotypes onto him. They make the person fit the cliche. So he must be too close to his mother. He must always be writing about rough boys (how many songs has he actually done that?), it must be a complete surprise that he is interested in and is good at sport. He only has male fans who are all in love with him. He moved to LA because it has a thriving gay scene. He lives in a "gay" house.

Look at the way they treats artists who have come out as gay. They can't even mention their name without putting "gay" in front of it and if they are not friends with Madonna there's something wrong with them. People have to fit into their boxes.
I agree with everything you said about the journalists' stereotypes, their hypocritical attitudes to homosexuality, as well as the ridiculous 'arguments' they use to prove that he's gay; and, in fact, I've commented on the same thing before quite a few times. I just don't think that any of that is relevant here, because I wasn't basing my opinion on any journalists' speculation, but on testimony by people who knew him, like his schoolfriends or the people who used to work with him. There is enough evidence that he was very close to his mother; whether that is a good or a bad thing is, of course, a matter of anyone's personal opinion.


Rogan wasn't eager to prove that Morrissey wasn't close to his father. It's other writers that have tried to do that.
I never said Rogan was eager to prove that Morrissey wasn't close to his father, I don't actually think he had any particular agenda. But he describes their relationship between them was strained although it manifested itself 'in long silences' rather than any outright conflict and that Morrissey's father found it very hard to understand his son, and there are a few quotes from different people commenting on Morrissey's relationship with his mother, so I assumed you included him in your description of journalists who are supposedly making the theory about Morrissey's relationship with his parents to fit him into some stereotype.


All I know is I've never read one disparaging quote from Morrissey about his father. The nearest is some journalist saying he pulled a face when asked about him. :rolleyes:
I never said there was. I wouldn't expect him to slag off his father in public, and if I was to hazard a guess I wouldn't think that he hates or dislikes him or anything, or that there is some kind of big conflict going on between them. But I can't help noticing that he has usually has practically nothing - or even literally nothing, to say about him. He didn't even answer the simple question what his father does (Word interview). I already said that the description of Morrissey's body language (Les Inrockuptibles) could be just the interviewer's interpretation/addition to the story, but the fact still is that Morrissey didn't find anything to say about his father (whereas he did talk about his mother). The impression I get from all this is that there might be some serious lack of contact/communication between them. (That's not the same as family members hating or despising each other and slagging each other in public.)

Of course, none of this is 'hard proof', but really, there can't be one. Unless Morrissey decides to make a statement in an interview - such as, for instance "my father was never there for me" or "I wished I could be closer to my father" or something like that - which really isn't something you would expect from him, or anyone for that matter!! I don't see much of a point in carrying on this debate, which is a bit off-topic anyway. I have an opinion that I've formed based on the available info, and you have a completely different one. Fine. Let's leave it that. There's no need to get that defensive every time this subject is brought up.

[Danny]

He very rarely talks about his mother either except when pressed. Hardly ever about his sister. He's talked about his Dad being very proud of his career.

I think he just tries to avoid talking about them altogether. The same way he tries to avoid talking about anything personal.

But what you have to take into account is all the interviews he does are edited by journalists who already have a "story" about Morrissey before they start out. The whole "Morrissey is too close to his mother" theme is much more interesting to journalists interested in him being a stereotypical gay man. So therefore it's more likely they communicate quotes that back up that interpretation and ignore those that don't. This is true of quotes from Morrissey and also from people that might have known him. When you read interviews from anyone you have to be aware there is often an agenda behind what is being presented. I am always suspicious when I see someone being presented as if they fit into a convenient stereotype because real human beings aren't like that.

[lilybett]

Sometimes...

I don't think too much about what they mean

I just let the words wash over me

Like this

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a286/missismorrissey/waves.jpg

(I can't believe I'm stealing analogies from painkiller adverts)

And sometimes, especially when I've been drinking or something, I really suprise myself with alternative meanings I come up with

And sometimes, other people's analyses are like little epithanies. And sometimes they make me wanna give them two slaps.

It's endless!

[Sunbags]

I thought we had been through all that already on this thread (http://forums.morrissey-solo.com/showthread.php?t=65098&highlight=linder) It's well known that his mother was quite involved with her son's career. Morrissey's strong attachment to his mother is something that a number of people that knew him have observed (scroll to post #11 on page 1). Do you believe that all those people (his schoolfriend from St.Mary's, people who worked for Rough Trade, his ex-manager Gail Colson...) were lying?! And Morrissey has, in fact, spoken a few times about his relationship with his parents. Or rather, he's talked about 'parents' and he's talked quite a lot about his mother, and how wonderful she was, and what music she liked (Roxy Music), his mother this his mother that... I don't remember him ever talking much specifically about his father. The only thing he said was that his dad worked as a hospital porter (when he was asked about his father's job in a Smiths interview); and I remember that he was asked once or twice how he got along with his father and how often they saw each other. He answered that, yes, they see each other constantly; does his father follow his career? yes, he has all the records, posters and interviews.

Morrissey says he was brought up by his mother's side of the family. His words.

Word magazine, 2003 http://www.alinkarel.plus.com/smiths/moz2.html pages 5-6

"Your music has often been quite hard on your upbringing. Barbarism Begins At Home is a howl of protest against being beaten, the child in Used To Be A Sweet Boy goes wrong in some unspecified way, Late Night, Maudlin Street is a straightforward attack on the misery of the family home...how does your mum feel about all this?
Early on the music was quite harsh, yes, but that has changed. Generally she likes it, although it is all autobiographical. I did get the clip around the head occasionally, as in the song, but I probably deserved it. I was a very noisy child. I always stood in front of his television, I wouldn't go to bed, and then I discovered music at the age of six and played it loud, continuously, all day from that point onwards. I would sing, non-stop, which must have been unbearable. I was surprised they were so tolerant of me, to be honest.
Is your father still around? Are you like him?
Yes, he is. And yes, I am, in certain respects. Why?
Because your Irishness is coming to the fore. You've written a song called Irish Blood, English Heart, you've started to say "Jaysus", you now pronounce the word "any" to rhyme with "Annie"...
That's interesting. But even when The Smiths recorded Please Please Please Let Me Get What I Want there were thousands of letters saying "This is Foster and Allen" or something similar. I've never had a Manchester accent. I've always had a very soft voice and I was raised by my mother's side of the family, who were very Irish. I never sounded Mancunian, for which I thank God every day.
What does your father do?
He does...certain things. Useful things. Let's leave it at that."
:confused:


And Sunbags has just provided me with another interesting quote (thanks for the interview, Sunbags!) :

Les Inrockuptibles, 1995
http://www.oz.net/~moz/quotes/lesinroc.htm


"Q: Is your incurable sadness the result of your past ?
M: All comes from my past.
Q: Is there a launching factor, a determining event ?
M: Yes... and all the work set about with the psychoanalysts talking about my childhood to reconstruct certain situations. In this, these experiences were successful: they did me much good even if some wounds remain buried deep inside me. I'll certainly need centuries to settle everything.
Q: Can you be more precise about the nature of these events ?
M: There have been several of them.
Q: Things that happened at school ?
M: Yes, at school, but as well and especially at home.
Q: Is the answer to be found in your song Used To Be A Sweet Boy ? One day something went wrong ?
M: That's precisely what the shrinks wanted to find (embarrassed laughter)... Myself, I don't know very well what went wrong. I have difficulty understanding, it's so complex. Even my parents would be unable to explain what went wrong. In the song, these are the parents who speak and deny all responsibility ("I'm not to blame"). To me, though, parents must assume blame: they bring the children up, not the other way around.
Q: Do your parents feel responsible for your constant state of sadness ?
M: It pains my mother a lot. Not that she feels responsible but she's perfectly aware of my state of dissatisfaction. She'd love so much to see me happy and totally fulfilled. Yet, nothing is her fault.
Q: What about your father ?
M: ...(He pulls a wry face, keeps silent and makes a wide gesture of the hand as a signal of defence. Then indicates the microphone on the table shaking his head, unable to speak. Follows an endless silence.)"

Well, I don't know how accurate the journalist's description of Morrissey's behaviour was, but in any case he didn't seem to have anything to say about his father.


And tell me, don't you find this weird (Q interview, September 1992 http://motorcycleaupairboy.com/interviews/1992/isay.htm ) :

"Q: Morrissey & Marr: The Severed Alliance. Have you read it?
Well a friend of mine had a copy and I squinted at it across the room for three days and then curiosity drove me to the index. Just to see who'd blabbed.

Q: Were you shocked?
Certain things shocked me. It's promoted as the definitive story of The Smiths. Of course, the only definitive story of The Smiths is my story, if ever that's told. It seems like he - Johnny Rogan - has interviewed anybody who basically bears a grudge against me. Any of the people who've been close to me over the past decade he has not got near. So I saw more reviews and I felt very sad because they were saying, At last! Here is the truth! The level of information that this person has unearthed! Basically, it's 75 percent blatant lies. The rest is reasonably factual.
I made a statement when the book was published which said, Anybody who buys this book wants their head tested. As far as I can tell, according to sales figures, a lot of people need their heads tested. A lot of people have bought it and, of course, a lot of people will believe it. But I hope, more so, that he dies in a hotel fire.

Q: Presumably you were approached to participate in the book?
Well of course Johnny Rogan has been explaining to the press that he had a conversation with me. I've never met him and no conversation has ever taken place. One night the phone rang and he said, This is J... and I put the phone down. He wrote me a series of letters over a three-year period, all of which I scarcely opened.

Q: Did he approach your mother? The book isn't too flattering about her.
Yes, he did. But she didn't speak to him. He didn't speak to any of my family. He spoke to people on the periphery of the whole thing and he spoke to Johnny Marr. Later, after the interview had taken place, I spoke to Johnny Marr about it and he regretted having done the interview enormously.

Q: Did your mother read it?
No. Suffice to say, if she had such things as a bargepole..."


:confused: Rogan "didn't speak to anyone" from Morrissey's family?! If Morrissey had read a page or two, or even Acknowledgements, he would have known that his father, Peter Morrissey, and his paternal aunts, Ann, Ellen and Patricia, were interviewed for the book, and that two of them (Patricia and Ann) received thanks for providing the old photos from the family albums. So, during the time that he was making sure that none of his family (in this case, just the mother's side of the family?) talk to Johnny Rogan, he failed to find out that his father was interviewed for the book?! I have to wonder how often they actually talked to each other?!

I don't really see what proof are you actually looking for that Morrissey was and is much closer to his mother than to his father. Do you expect him to actually say in an interview: "You see, me and my father were never really that close"?!

Thought you could do with this:

Severed Alliance, p.86, newest edition

The easy-going father tried to lighten the tensions in the household with his customary good humour but, by late 1976, the situation was severely strained. Steven sided with his mother during the worst moments; it was a sad time. The underlying tensions are best exemplified by Stevens' acknowledgement that he had not spoken to his father in over six months. A cataclysmic Christmas beckoned.

[Dave]

"There is a light" could hardly be about anything other than a passive, nearly adult, person wanting to escape the parental home, and being in love with someone that is not (consciously) aware of their feelings. These feelings cause problems for the person, and I'm not sure the person actually wants to be hit by a 10 ton truck, but I'd say that since the thought even occurs to them, even as a gauge of their feelings, they must be in some distress. At the same time they are happy when they are with the one they love.

I appreciate the other possible interpretations, but I would never see it other than the way I do now. So there. :p

[Sunbags]

He very rarely talks about his mother either except when pressed. Hardly ever about his sister. He's talked about his Dad being very proud of his career.

I think he just tries to avoid talking about them altogether. The same way he tries to avoid talking about anything personal.

But what you have to take into account is all the interviews he does are edited by journalists who already have a "story" about Morrissey before they start out. The whole "Morrissey is too close to his mother" theme is much more interesting to journalists interested in him being a stereotypical gay man. So therefore it's more likely they communicate quotes that back up that interpretation and ignore those that don't. This is true of quotes from Morrissey and also from people that might have known him. When you read interviews from anyone you have to be aware there is often an agenda behind what is being presented. I am always suspicious when I see someone being presented as if they fit into a convenient stereotype because real human beings aren't like that.

As a non-member of the "Journalists are evil brigade", I must point out that by copyright law an interviewer/publication must receive consent from the interviewee to publish the final text of an interview. The interviewee can give consent without actually seeing the final text (proof) of the interview. They can also appoint someone to view the text and hence give the green light (as they say). Once consent is given, the interview becomes the property of the interviewer/publication. This, however, could be contested in a court of law if the interviewee feels that the interviewer has been in breach of certain laws in the process of obtaining the interview.

Of course, copyright law varies from country to country, but generally, if an interviewee requests to see the final text of an interview, the interviewer cannot deny him/her that right.

Obviously Morrissey cannot control the articles Journalists write about him and he cannot stop people giving interviews about him (although I'm sure he'd try). It is just interesting to suppose that the things we see in interviews, are, perhaps, the things Morrissey would like us to see.

[Dave]

As a non-member of the "Journalists are evil brigade", I must point out that by copyright law an interviewer/publication must receive consent from the interviewee to publish the final text of an interview. The interviewee can give consent without actually seeing the final text (proof) of the interview. They can also appoint someone to view the text and hence give the green light (as they say). Once consent is given, the interview becomes the property of the interviewer/publication. This, however, could be contested in a court of law if the interviewee feels that the interviewer has been in breach of certain laws in the process of obtaining the interview.

Of course, copyright law varies from country to country, but generally, if an interviewee requests to see the final text of an interview, the interviewer cannot deny him/her that right.

Obviously Morrissey cannot control the articles Journalists write about him and he cannot stop people giving interviews about him (although I'm sure he'd try). It is just interesting to suppose that the things we see in interviews, are, perhaps, the things Morrissey would like us to see.

I think consent is given before the interview takes place. When a few years ago, one famous megalomaniacal rockstar was demanding final approval of interviews before they could be published, some magazines chose not to sign the contract, and did not get the interviews. This was in the US, so I don't know about other countries, but you read pretty regularly about pop stars and others claiming they were misquoted, so I don't think it is common practice anywhere for the subject of the interview to approve the final edit.

[Busy Clippers]

I think consent is given before the interview takes place. When a few years ago, one famous megalomaniacal rockstar was demanding final approval of interviews before they could be published, some magazines chose not to sign the contract, and did not get the interviews. This was in the US, so I don't know about other countries, but you read pretty regularly about pop stars and others claiming they were misquoted, so I don't think it is common practice anywhere for the subject of the interview to approve the final edit.

I was a journalist in the U.S. and we never gave anyone the right to approve an article before publication; we never even showed it to them. We didn't always use tape recorders, either. Most subjects were more comfortable when I just took notes, and if I wanted further clarification I would just phone them when writing the story. Never had a problem. The act of speaking with someone who identifies themselves as a reporter implies consent.

[Sunbags]

I think consent is given before the interview takes place. When a few years ago, one famous megalomaniacal rockstar was demanding final approval of interviews before they could be published, some magazines chose not to sign the contract, and did not get the interviews. This was in the US, so I don't know about other countries, but you read pretty regularly about pop stars and others claiming they were misquoted, so I don't think it is common practice anywhere for the subject of the interview to approve the final edit.

Do you know the details of that case? When you do an interview, the interviewee has to give consent to being interviewed and for the publication of the interview. I presume this involves a contract. If the interviewer/publication wants to interview you badly enough, they will compromise with you on the terms of the interview (i.e. allowing you to approve publication). I can't imagine Morrissey blindly going into interviews (post-Smiths, anyhow). Maybe that's why he does so few of 'em (and who could blame him). I'm not a lawyer (am practically just a kid), but I love finding out about this stuff.

[Sunbags]

I was a journalist in the U.S. and we never gave anyone the right to approve an article before publication; we never even showed it to them. We didn't always use tape recorders, either. Most subjects were more comfortable when I just took notes, and if I wanted further clarification I would just phone them when writing the story. Never had a problem. The act of speaking with someone who identifies themselves as a reporter implies consent.

I do know that, I don't think I made myself clear in the first post. I was trying to say that someone like Morrissey would, in all probability, be able to negotiate the terms of an interview (i.e. copyright and so forth). The average Joe doesn't really get a look in, as you said (but not in those words!)

[imogen11]

[QUOTE=nightandday;427356]

And Sunbags has just provided me with another interesting quote (thanks for the interview, Sunbags!) :

Les Inrockuptibles, 1995
http://www.oz.net/~moz/quotes/lesinroc.htm


"Q: Is your incurable sadness the result of your past ?
M: All comes from my past.
Q: Is there a launching factor, a determining event ?
M: Yes... and all the work set about with the psychoanalysts talking about my childhood to reconstruct certain situations. In this, these experiences were successful: they did me much good even if some wounds remain buried deep inside me. I'll certainly need centuries to settle everything.
Q: Can you be more precise about the nature of these events ?
M: There have been several of them.
Q: Things that happened at school ?
M: Yes, at school, but as well and especially at home.
Q: Is the answer to be found in your song Used To Be A Sweet Boy ? One day something went wrong ?
M: That's precisely what the shrinks wanted to find (embarrassed laughter.
QUOTE]

Hey thanks for that interview link..I don't recall having read that one. I just gotta say, [I]imagine being Morrissey's psychoanalyst for 6 months. hehe. Jesus...Imagine you were a shrink and you looked up from your desk to greet your new patient and it was..Morrissey! Come to confess his deepest darkest secrets. Awesome. :D ;)

[Dave]

Do you know the details of that case? When you do an interview, the interviewee has to give consent to being interviewed and for the publication of the interview. I presume this involves a contract. If the interviewer/publication wants to interview you badly enough, they will compromise with you on the terms of the interview (i.e. allowing you to approve publication). I can't imagine Morrissey blindly going into interviews (post-Smiths, anyhow). Maybe that's why he does so few of 'em (and who could blame him). I'm not a lawyer (am practically just a kid), but I love finding out about this stuff.

Here's an interview (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5937403/axl_rose_the_rs_interview) where the contract is discussed. And here's the section of the interview if you don't want to read it all.

The media contract that was put into effect before Guns n' Roses started the tour outraged a lot of journalists who felt that you were trying to control what was printed about the band. And I think that's a legitimate gripe on the part of the press.

Yeah. But I don't think they understood what we were trying to do. We were trying to cut down on our exposure. There is such a thing as overexposure. We were also trying to weed out the assholes from the people who were gonna be cool. You know, if you were willing to put your ass on the line and sign the damn thing, then we pretty much figured you weren't gonna try and screw us. There were people who agreed to sign it and then we told them they didn't have to.

Can you understand why even a reporter who wasn't out to get you would refuse to sign something like that?

I don't know. I guess only if they thought that we wanted everything to look peachy keen.

That's the way it came across, because the contract gave you the right of final approval over everything that was written by anyone who signed it.
I'm not that way. I want the real story. I never wanted "Steven Adler's on vacation." I wanted "Steven Adler's in a fucking rehab." (Adler, G n' R's former drummer, was fired from the group for excessive drug use.) I wanted the reality. Maybe I'd like it a bit optimistic, but I've always been more into the reality of the situations, because that's what I wanted to read about the band. I can see where it would look like we just wanted everything to be right about us. But it was also trying to find a way to work with certain metal magazines. There are a lot of kids who collect those, and we'd rather they have real stories than bullshit stories. I haven't done an interview with Hit Parader or Circus in three or four years.

You've said you can't trust them to print what you actually say.

Yeah. And it's not that what they print is so bad. It's just that when someone puts corny little words in that you didn't say ... like Slash saying something about "Well, we're gonna just shake it up and see what happens." Slash would never say that, and it made him feel really dorky. Looking back at it and reading it, it may not be that bad. But we know that we would've come off a lot better if it had been what we really said. I think I've got a pretty good track record of not lying.

************************************************** *******
I went looking for the contract, but can't find it. At the time Spin magazine printed the contract (http://www.askmen.com/toys/top_10_100/121d_top_10_list.html) instead of agreeing to it because they saw the contract as the real story. This earned Bob Guccione, Jr, then editor of Spin magazine a mention on a Guns'N'Roses song.

No one ever wound up in court about this though, and I think that once the existence of the contract was known it was dropped. The contract is worth reading though, and I might even have the old Spin magazine where they printed it. If I find it I'll post it. I just remember that it used language about penalties for breaking the contract and I believe it required journalists to post a $50,000 bond that they would lose if they published somethng the band didn't like. But Axl's mood swung another direction, or he was embarassed when the contract was published and it was dropped. I don't know why I remember things like this, really...:p

[Worm]

There's no contract between interviewer and interviewee. Copyright is not awarded to the interviewee.

Typically editors or fact-checkers will review the stories for accuracy. In most respectable publications they'll contact the person interviewed to make sure quotes attributed to him or her are accurate. Errors are weeded out, and should something defamatory make it through, the interviewee can ask for a public retraction.

Even checked for accuracy, there is a great deal of leeway given to journalists. Direct quotations can be presented out of context, truncated, or become distorted by the writer's style.

Morrissey's complaint about journalists is that they are embellishing, twisting, and in some cases making wild claims about him by mixing a smattering of facts and his own words with the writer's own flawed interpretations. Somehow, between doing the interview and publication, these journalists, intentionally or not, mischaracterize Morrissey. The worst of the bunch, the ones Morrissey had in mind while writing "Journalists Who Lie", are the ones who present themselves as pals writing a puff piece who sneak off and publish a vicious attack.

There is no consent involved, though. It's fair play and both sides know it. The reason Morrissey continues to do interviews is very simple: they make for great publicity at no cost. For all the lies he says have been written about him, he would never, ever trade the great p.r. he's gotten. In spite of its despicable about-face in 1992, the NME has helped him far more than it has hurt him and he knows it. In the heyday of The Smiths the music press probably did more to sell records than Rough Trade's publicity department.

Such is the tradeoff. Morrissey takes his chances like the rest. Telling fans that some writers are out to get him is not unbelievable at all. Once the interview is over, it's basically out of his hands. I suspect he's wanted to take legal action but couldn't because of the grey areas inherent in journalism. For instance, in an article that tries to "out" Morrissey as gay, he probably has no recourse because the quotes used in the article are basically accurate, if stretched a little or emphasized by omission of other quotes. An editor doesn't call to say, "My reporter says you're all but admitting you're a poof because you said you love gay writers exclusively". He says, "My reporter says you told him you like Truman Capote, Tennessee Williams, Oscar Wilde, and Marcel Proust".

Nevertheless, most of the articles written about Morrissey have been fair, it seems to me. They've contained baseless speculation and some silly interpretative turns, but Morrissey, as outspoken as he is, is not an easy person to write about. As nakedly honest as his songs are, there are huge holes in his persona that afford many readings. This discussion board proves the point. I don't think more than a handful of posts ever written here would pass muster as truth in Morrissey's world.

Which isn't the point anyway. As long as people are talking...

[Danny]

I never meant Journalists are evil and deliberately go out of their way to misrepresent Morrissey.

What I mean is we all have prejudices and we tend to look for the facts to confirm our prejudices and ignore things that go against what we believe to be true. That's just how the human mind seems to work. Even liberal journalists do this (remember the "perhaps it's a gay thing" about racisim in the NME?).

A journalist might think he/she is giving an honest account of a meeting they had with Morrissey but quite often they are subtly editing the incident to fit with the idea of Morrissey they already had before meeting him. Our first impressions of people are always guided by our previous experience of what we think is their "type". It's only when you get to know someone properly that you realise they don't conform to the type you've allotted them to.

[nightandday]

Well, this conversation has now gone in a different direction - an interesting one, I must say, as I could write all day about the stereotypes and silly comments that can be found in many magazine/newspaper articles, about the ways people can misrepresent things, misquote, take statements out of context, etc... but, going back where we started:



But what you have to take into account is all the interviews he does are edited by journalists who already have a "story" about Morrissey before they start out. The whole "Morrissey is too close to his mother" theme is much more interesting to journalists interested in him being a stereotypical gay man. So therefore it's more likely they communicate quotes that back up that interpretation and ignore those that don't. This is true of quotes from Morrissey and also from people that might have known him. When you read interviews from anyone you have to be aware there is often an agenda behind what is being presented. I am always suspicious when I see someone being presented as if they fit into a convenient stereotype because real human beings aren't like that.
The quotes I was referring to are not from an interview, they are from Severed Alliance, and as far as I could see, that book did nothing to present Morrissey as a stereotypical gay man, or as a gay man at all for that matter.


Thought you could do with this:

Severed Alliance, p.86, newest edition

The easy-going father tried to lighten the tensions in the household with his customary good humour but, by late 1976, the situation was severely strained. Steven sided with his mother during the worst moments; it was a sad time. The underlying tensions are best exemplified by Stevens' acknowledgement that he had not spoken to his father in over six months. A cataclysmic Christmas beckoned.

Thank you. Here is more (p. 85-86):

"Peter Morrissey had occasionally puzzled over and almost despaired of understanding a son whose demeanour, attitude and personality often appeared unfathomable. As one of his friends observed: "Steven was one of those hip kids, who dressed funny and hung around with weirdos. Pete didn't like that and wanted him to be more of a man, as he thought." The differences between father and son were probably more nebulous than specific, and tended to manifest themselves in grand silences rather than bitter antagonism. Both father and son were placid personalities. As Peter himself told me: "He never seems to get upset or angry."

The easy-going father tried to lighten the tensions in the household with his customary good humour but, by late 1976, the situation was severely strained. Steven sided with his mother during the worst moments; it was a sad time. The underlying tensions are best exemplified by Steven's acknowledgement that he had not spoken to his father in over six months. A cataclysmic Christmas beckoned."

On a more positive note, it is mentioned (p. 207) that Morrissey's father unexapectedly came to a Smiths gig at Dublin SMX, in November 1984: "The SFX performance was well received, with Peter Morrissey making a surprise appearance backstage. It was a strange experience for Steven, who found himself unexpectedly entertaining his father on the occasion of his mother's 47th birthday."

About Morrissey's relationship with his mother:

"Morrissey always betrayed a strong filial affection for his mother, which even his class-mates noted. Mike Ellis still recalls the first time he saw Mrs Morrissey. "We were 13 and sitting on the grass when she walked by", he remembers. "Steve walked right up to her and gave her a kiss on the lips. That was really unusual. It was a sign of affection that kids of that age just don't do. The last person you want to kiss is your mother, especially in front of your mates. But she was more like an elder brother's girlfriend." " (p. 62)

about her involvement with her son's career:

(at the time when The Smiths were recording their first single: )
"It was at this point that Morrissey's mother appeared at a rehearsal session to check if the group's management was sound. She was sufficiently impressed by Joe Moss's obvious commitments to The Smiths to pen a note which said, "God will thank you for what you're doing for my son." " (p. 160)

"Morrissey's need for preferential care was communicated to his friends and supporters who rallied on his behalf. His protective mother soon became a thorn in the side of Rough Trade employees by audaciously deflecting "urgent" telephone calls. Once, when Geoff Travis himself attempted to coax the off-colour star to a meeting, he received the sharp end of Betty Dwyer's tongue." (p. 187)

Scott Piering (Rough Trade/The Smiths' promotion man & caretaker manager) on one of wannabe managers, Ruth Polski: " "Ruth made every effort to cater to those whims and basically point out how shabbily they were treated - which was, more or less, true! That psychology would attract Morrissey. His mother was constantly telling him the same. Nobody could do anything right for Morrissey, as far as his mother was concerned." (p. 188)

"After taking his leave of Shaw, Morrissey returned to the sanctuary of his mother's house in Manchester. The scheduled gigs in Vienna, Munich, Frankfurt, Cologne and Bremen were now history, although Rough Trade made vain attempts to persuade the elusive star to change his mind. Piering had the onerous task of tracking down Morrissey's but, in the event, failed to bypass his pugnaciously protective mother. The "official representative" was summarily informed that her son was bread and butter and he'd better start treating him with better consideration in the future. As Piering wearily explained: "When The Smiths had unruly audiences, or people stormed the stage or threw something, he'd report all this back to his mother and look for sympathy." (p. 201)

Grant Showbiz (The Smiths' soundman) on the 1987 disagreements within the band concerning management: "Everybody chose sides with The Smiths", he emphasized, "that's just what happened. Morrissey's mother was on Morrissey's side, Johnny's wife was on Johnny's side, Geoff Travis was on Morrissey's side. It just got to the point where it was high school." (p. 276)

[Jones]

Well, this conversation has now gone in a different direction - an interesting one, I must say, as I could write all day about the stereotypes and silly comments that can be found in many magazine/newspaper articles, about the ways people can misrepresent things, misquote, take statements out of context, etc... but, going back where we started:


The quotes I was referring to are not from an interview, they are from Severed Alliance, and as far as I could see, that book did nothing to present Morrissey as a stereotypical gay man, or as a gay man at all for that matter.



Thank you. Here is more (p. 85-86):

"Peter Morrissey had occasionally puzzled over and almost despaired of understanding a son whose demeanour, attitude and personality often appeared unfathomable. As one of his friends observed: "Steven was one of those hip kids, who dressed funny and hung around with weirdos. Pete didn't like that and wanted him to be more of a man, as he thought." The differences between father and son were probably more nebulous than specific, and tended to manifest themselves in grand silences rather than bitter antagonism. Both father and son were placid personalities. As Peter himself told me: "He never seems to get upset or angry."

The easy-going father tried to lighten the tensions in the household with his customary good humour but, by late 1976, the situation was severely strained. Steven sided with his mother during the worst moments; it was a sad time. The underlying tensions are best exemplified by Steven's acknowledgement that he had not spoken to his father in over six months. A cataclysmic Christmas beckoned."

On a more positive note, it is mentioned (p. 207) that Morrissey's father unexapectedly came to a Smiths gig at Dublin SMX, in November 1984: "The SFX performance was well received, with Peter Morrissey making a surprise appearance backstage. It was a strange experience for Steven, who found himself unexpectedly entertaining his father on the occasion of his mother's 47th birthday."

About Morrissey's relationship with his mother:

"Morrissey always betrayed a strong filial affection for his mother, which even his class-mates noted. Mike Ellis still recalls the first time he saw Mrs Morrissey. "We were 13 and sitting on the grass when she walked by", he remembers. "Steve walked right up to her and gave her a kiss on the lips. That was really unusual. It was a sign of affection that kids of that age just don't do. The last person you want to kiss is your mother, especially in front of your mates. But she was more like an elder brother's girlfriend." " (p. 62)

about her involvement with her son's career:

(at the time when The Smiths were recording their first single: )
"It was at this point that Morrissey's mother appeared at a rehearsal session to check if the group's management was sound. She was sufficiently impressed by Joe Moss's obvious commitments to The Smiths to pen a note which said, "God will thank you for what you're doing for my son." " (p. 160)

"Morrissey's need for preferential care was communicated to his friends and supporters who rallied on his behalf. His protective mother soon became a thorn in the side of Rough Trade employees by audaciously deflecting "urgent" telephone calls. Once, when Geoff Travis himself attempted to coax the off-colour star to a meeting, he received the sharp end of Betty Dwyer's tongue." (p. 187)

Scott Piering (Rough Trade/The Smiths' promotion man & caretaker manager) on one of wannabe managers, Ruth Polski: " "Ruth made every effort to cater to those whims and basically point out how shabbily they were treated - which was, more or less, true! That psychology would attract Morrissey. His mother was constantly telling him the same. Nobody could do anything right for Morrissey, as far as his mother was concerned." (p. 188)

"After taking his leave of Shaw, Morrissey returned to the sanctuary of his mother's house in Manchester. The scheduled gigs in Vienna, Munich, Frankfurt, Cologne and Bremen were now history, although Rough Trade made vain attempts to persuade the elusive star to change his mind. Piering had the onerous task of tracking down Morrissey's but, in the event, failed to bypass his pugnaciously protective mother. The "official representative" was summarily informed that her son was bread and butter and he'd better start treating him with better consideration in the future. As Piering wearily explained: "When The Smiths had unruly audiences, or people stormed the stage or threw something, he'd report all this back to his mother and look for sympathy." (p. 201)

Grant Showbiz (The Smiths' soundman) on the 1987 disagreements within the band concerning management: "Everybody chose sides with The Smiths", he emphasized, "that's just what happened. Morrissey's mother was on Morrissey's side, Johnny's wife was on Johnny's side, Geoff Travis was on Morrissey's side. It just got to the point where it was high school." (p. 276)

I think you are unwittingly proving the point that people pick out the bits that suit their agenda without even realising you are doing it.

[nightandday]

I don't see how Rogan would have got much out of Morrissey's paternal aunts if it's true that he was only close to his mothers side of the family. Journalists like Rogan have a vested interest in persuading us they know more than they do. Yes, Rogan interviewed Peter Morrissey but it was pretty obvious he refused to talk directly about his son, the only quotes that appear in the book are about his life before Morrissey was even born, jobs he had and his footballing career.
The information about Morrissey's childhood, home life etc. (anything not connected to the school) must have come from somewhere, so it seems like someone from the family must have provided some info. I doubt that it was all just from neighbours or whatever. The aunts are among the people credited for providing "photographic/archive material" - which obviously refers to photos from family arhives (most of the photos are credited to 'Morrissey/Courtney family archive', 'Morrissey/Corrigan family archive' or 'Morrissey family archive').

The quotes which are supposed to be from adolescent Morrissey's diary always made me wonder - if that was a genuine diary, who made it available to Rogan?

[nightandday]

I think you are unwittingly proving the point that people pick out the bits that suit their agenda without even realising you are doing it.
Please explain, how am I doing it?? What and whose agenda is that, and what are the other bits that don't suit it?

[marilyn manson]

you have killed me

i think this song deals with dissappointment

am i wrong?

[Sunbags]

Here's an interview (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5937403/axl_rose_the_rs_interview) where the contract is discussed. And here's the section of the interview if you don't want to read it all.

The media contract that was put into effect before Guns n' Roses started the tour outraged a lot of journalists who felt that you were trying to control what was printed about the band. And I think that's a legitimate gripe on the part of the press.

Yeah. But I don't think they understood what we were trying to do. We were trying to cut down on our exposure. There is such a thing as overexposure. We were also trying to weed out the assholes from the people who were gonna be cool. You know, if you were willing to put your ass on the line and sign the damn thing, then we pretty much figured you weren't gonna try and screw us. There were people who agreed to sign it and then we told them they didn't have to.

Can you understand why even a reporter who wasn't out to get you would refuse to sign something like that?

I don't know. I guess only if they thought that we wanted everything to look peachy keen.

That's the way it came across, because the contract gave you the right of final approval over everything that was written by anyone who signed it.
I'm not that way. I want the real story. I never wanted "Steven Adler's on vacation." I wanted "Steven Adler's in a fucking rehab." (Adler, G n' R's former drummer, was fired from the group for excessive drug use.) I wanted the reality. Maybe I'd like it a bit optimistic, but I've always been more into the reality of the situations, because that's what I wanted to read about the band. I can see where it would look like we just wanted everything to be right about us. But it was also trying to find a way to work with certain metal magazines. There are a lot of kids who collect those, and we'd rather they have real stories than bullshit stories. I haven't done an interview with Hit Parader or Circus in three or four years.

You've said you can't trust them to print what you actually say.

Yeah. And it's not that what they print is so bad. It's just that when someone puts corny little words in that you didn't say ... like Slash saying something about "Well, we're gonna just shake it up and see what happens." Slash would never say that, and it made him feel really dorky. Looking back at it and reading it, it may not be that bad. But we know that we would've come off a lot better if it had been what we really said. I think I've got a pretty good track record of not lying.

************************************************** *******
I went looking for the contract, but can't find it. At the time Spin magazine printed the contract (http://www.askmen.com/toys/top_10_100/121d_top_10_list.html) instead of agreeing to it because they saw the contract as the real story. This earned Bob Guccione, Jr, then editor of Spin magazine a mention on a Guns'N'Roses song.

No one ever wound up in court about this though, and I think that once the existence of the contract was known it was dropped. The contract is worth reading though, and I might even have the old Spin magazine where they printed it. If I find it I'll post it. I just remember that it used language about penalties for breaking the contract and I believe it required journalists to post a $50,000 bond that they would lose if they published somethng the band didn't like. But Axl's mood swung another direction, or he was embarassed when the contract was published and it was dropped. I don't know why I remember things like this, really...:p

Thank you very much for that! So it was the printing of the contract which was at the center of the fiasco. But the point I was making was that, like Guns'n'Roses, certain interview subjects can dictate the terms of the interview. The key word is that they could, unlike someone (who is not deemed to be of great importance) giving an interview to the local newspaper. The question is, would they? Given what happened to G'n'R (the contract was revealed) and how that might change their fans' perceptions of them, perhaps they might be reluctant to stipulate their terms. However, I find it hard to believe that someone like Morrissey would not exert a certain amount of control over an interview, which is what started me off thinking about this.

[Jones]

Thank you very much for that! So it was the printing of the contract which was at the center of the fiasco. But the point I was making was that, like Guns'n'Roses, certain interview subjects can dictate the terms of the interview. The key word is that they could, unlike someone (who is not deemed to be of great importance) giving an interview to the local newspaper. The question is, would they? Given what happened to G'n'R (the contract was revealed) and how that might change their fans' perceptions of them, perhaps they might be reluctant to stipulate their terms. However, I find it hard to believe that someone like Morrissey would not exert a certain amount of control over an interview, which is what started me off thinking about this.

I don't think Morrissey would have enough clout to have control over an interview. He's not a Hollywood filmstar. His only control would be to suss out who was going to interview him and decide if they were trustworthy or not.

There are stories of him taking his own tape recorder to interviews in the nineties so that he had a record of the interview as well as the journalist and therefore they wouldn't be able to make up quotes from him. That still wouldn't guard against the journalist injecting their own bias into the written piece though.

[Sunbags]

There's no contract between interviewer and interviewee. Copyright is not awarded to the interviewee.

That is true, but the terms of copyright must be discussed with the interviewee before the interview. The interviewer owns copyright of the interview, as long as the interviewer complied with proper interviewing procedure (i.e. if an interviewee believes that the interviewer was in breach of certain copyright laws which pertain to the interviewing process, then he/she could contest the interviewers' ownership of copyright). Your above statement holds, unless contracts are brought into the equation.



There is no consent involved, though.

That all depends on the interviewee (i.e. is the interviewee in a postion to dictate the terms of an interview and will they do so, if able).



As long as people are talking...

'xactly!

[Sunbags]

I don't think Morrissey would have enough clout to have control over an interview.

Well now, that, is truly a matter of opinion!;)

[Sunbags]

I never meant Journalists are evil and deliberately go out of their way to misrepresent Morrissey.

What I mean is we all have prejudices and we tend to look for the facts to confirm our prejudices and ignore things that go against what we believe to be true. That's just how the human mind seems to work. Even liberal journalists do this (remember the "perhaps it's a gay thing" about racisim in the NME?).

A journalist might think he/she is giving an honest account of a meeting they had with Morrissey but quite often they are subtly editing the incident to fit with the idea of Morrissey they already had before meeting him. Our first impressions of people are always guided by our previous experience of what we think is their "type". It's only when you get to know someone properly that you realise they don't conform to the type you've allotted them to.

I'm sorry Danny, nothing I said was directed at you (although it must look that way). You just happened to mention the whole journalism thing, that's all. I didn't mean to offend.

[nightandday]

bumped because I think this is a great thread, or at least it was before we started getting off-topic. The highlights for me were the big discussion on all the possible different meanings of The Hand That Rocks The Cradle, and Jones's wonderful interpretation of Lifeguard Sleeping, Girl Drowning, a song I was long trying to figure out.

I think we've had enough talk of Morrissey's parents, and please, please let's have no more talk of journalists that (don't) lie, the way they conduct and publish interiviews, and the contracts that Axl Rose wanted them to sign, or whatever. :rolleyes:

[lilikoi]

back to the topic: what's friday mourning really about?

[slum mum 1974]

back to the topic: what's friday mourning really about?

"In keeping with it's bleak punning title, the tempo of this tune was suitably funereal in the style of Mark Nevin's mournful melody on Kill Uncle's Asian Rut. The lyrics also recalled the mordant humour of Viva Hate's 'Late Night Maudlin Street'. Midway through, there is even an echo of the comic revulsion of a nation turning it's back and gagging at Morrissey's nakedness in the wry, 'I will never stand naked in front of you'. There's also a probable allusion to his retirement from the pop pantheon in teh demand to douse the houselights because, 'I'm not coming back'. That threat was last heard in more comic mode at the close of 'Disappointed'. Of course the words could equally refer to suicide, especially in view of the funeral imagery that closes the song. Amid this maudlin meditation the singer roll calls the views of teachers, parents and bosses all of whom offer the denigrating litany, 'You are a loser'."

[Kewpie]

"In keeping with it's bleak punning title, the tempo of this tune was suitably funereal in the style of Mark Nevin's mournful melody on Kill Uncle's Asian Rut. The lyrics also recalled the mordant humour of Viva Hate's 'Late Night Maudlin Street'. Midway through, there is even an echo of the comic revulsion of a nation turning it's back and gagging at Morrissey's nakedness in the wry, 'I will never stand naked in front of you'. There's also a probable allusion to his retirement from the pop pantheon in teh demand to douse the houselights because, 'I'm not coming back'. That threat was last heard in more comic mode at the close of 'Disappointed'. Of course the words could equally refer to suicide, especially in view of the funeral imagery that closes the song. Amid this maudlin meditation the singer roll calls the views of teachers, parents and bosses all of whom offer the denigrating litany, 'You are a loser'."

Which book/article do you quote? :confused:

[slum mum 1974]

Which book/article do you quote? :confused:

Oops..Sorry....Johnny Rogan, Morrissey:the Albums:o

[nightandday]

Oops..Sorry....Johnny Rogan, Morrissey:the Albums:o
Of course, this is just Johnny Rogan's interpretation. Nobody but Morrissey can tell us what the songs are really about.

The 'you' in Morrissey's songs is often very ambiguous, there is a number of songs that you can either see as addressed to a particular person, or to his audience or the public in general. For instance, Rogan interprets both Friday Mourning and Life Is A Pigsty as "more likely to be a direct address to his audience rather than a specific person". Which may or may not be true. Or it may have been meant to have both meanings.

How about The More You Ignore Me, The Closer I Get? Lots of people interpret it as a love song, but I think it lends itself very easily to the other interpretation.

[slum mum 1974]

Of course, this is just Johnny Rogan's interpretation. Nobody but Morrissey can tell us what the songs are really about.

The 'you' in Morrissey's songs is often very ambiguous, there is a number of songs that you can either see as addressed to a particular person, or to his audience or the public in general. For instance, Rogan interprets both Friday Mourning and Life Is A Pigsty as "more likely to be a direct address to his audience rather than a specific person". Which may or may not be true. Or it may have been meant to have both meanings.

How about The More You Ignore Me, The Closer I Get? Lots of people interpret it as a love song, but I think it lends itself very easily to the other interpretation.

I think personally that The More You Ignore Me, The Closer I Get, is a song about stalkers. I personally find that this song speaks volumes to me as i have these stalker tendencies....It probably could be considered a love song, but one that the love is not well recieved.:p

[nightandday]

I think personally that The More You Ignore Me, The Closer I Get, is a song about stalkers. I personally find that this song speaks volumes to me as i have these stalker tendencies....It probably could be considered a love song, but one that the love is not well recieved.:p
Do you know 'Obsession' by Siouxsie and the Banshees? that's the best song about stalking/erotomania I've ever heard. :)

[slum mum 1974]

Do you know 'Obsession' by Siouxsie and the Banshees? that's the best song about stalking/erotomania I've ever heard. :)

nope but i am off to download that track now....cheers coz i like her voice:) and it suits my personality:D

[slum mum 1974]

Do you know 'Obsession' by Siouxsie and the Banshees? that's the best song about stalking/erotomania I've ever heard. :)

Wow....that song was written for and about me, my favourite part was
'i broke into your room - i broke down in my room
touched your belongings there - and left a lock of my hair
another sign for you

you screamed into my face get the hell out of my place
another sign for me? can you forgive me?
for not understanding your ways'


Oh how true!:(

[lilikoi]

"In keeping with it's bleak punning title, the tempo of this tune was suitably funereal in the style of Mark Nevin's mournful melody on Kill Uncle's Asian Rut. The lyrics also recalled the mordant humour of Viva Hate's 'Late Night Maudlin Street'. Midway through, there is even an echo of the comic revulsion of a nation turning it's back and gagging at Morrissey's nakedness in the wry, 'I will never stand naked in front of you'. There's also a probable allusion to his retirement from the pop pantheon in teh demand to douse the houselights because, 'I'm not coming back'. That threat was last heard in more comic mode at the close of 'Disappointed'. Of course the words could equally refer to suicide, especially in view of the funeral imagery that closes the song. Amid this maudlin meditation the singer roll calls the views of teachers, parents and bosses all of whom offer the denigrating litany, 'You are a loser'."

big mouth the 23rd? doesn't make that much sense...

I thought it was about suicide at first, but what about the "dawn raid" and "kicking down the stairs"? could it maybe be about a jealousy murder???

[sonof77]

Friday mourning reminded me of The Beatles "She's leaving home"..

[slum mum 1974]

big mouth the 23rd? doesn't make that much sense...

I thought it was about suicide at first, but what about the "dawn raid" and "kicking down the stairs"? could it maybe be about a jealousy murder???

It very much could be as he puts it like this, 'I see the faces all lined up before me, Of teachers and of parents, and bosses, who all share a point of view', especially as 'For years I warned you through tears I told you' could be that he was scared for his life.......yes i think the jealousy murder could most definitely work. :)

[Zenith Nadir]

I'm glad you concur.

Alma Matters....?

Well it's one of two things:
[a] Reference to Alma an ex-character from Coronation Street
or
[b] A vision of the future re: Princess Diana, which I'm sure you all read the consipiracy theories on a long time ago on this site?

B! Surely! mjp? Anyone...

Unleaked fact. On the morning of her death, Dodi had actually said to her, "When will you? Di? Convenient homonym, or eerie prediction. You decide. The whole thing is just way too spooky for me. I must go and rest for a little while, to calm down and practice my breathing techniques.

[Still Tired]

I thought it was about suicide at first, but what about the "dawn raid" and "kicking down the stairs"? could it maybe be about a jealousy murder???

I think that the ‘dawn raid’ relates to a sudden awareness of a situation- of becoming illuminated about something which he likens to the light of dawn rushing in. So not a physical force, but just in his mind realising- whether he’s talking about a specifically personal situation or as Rogan suggests, his place in the music industry- how it’s all gone bad and he’s become disillusioned.

The ‘kick me down the stairs’ line I always loved, I take it that he’s talking about dying and how he’ll obviously be descending to hell, and not only that but he’s being thrown down in such a violent fashion. And as we’re apparently supposed to see flashes of our lives before we die, all he sees are the people who have made his life miserable. Such a sad idea.

So I think it's not specifically about suicide, but is using the metaphor of dying to describe the end of something that once bought him pleasure- be that life/ a relationship/ his career.

[Roma De Moz]

The Never Played Symphonies? What do people think?

To me this song is wonderful closure to an epic and dramatic music career, even if he has continued recording music since. Morrissey evokes the image of death and dying as both literal, and metaphorical for his pop career.

"Reflecting from my death bed
I'm balancing life's riches, against the ditches
And the flat grey years in-between"

Here, Morrissey is contemplating if it was all worth it; he has earned 'life's riches' - a place in pop history, the fans, the admiration - and wondering if it could outweigh the 'ditches' - anything from the hostility from the music press, racism accusations, music politics etc. 'The flat grey years' as Morrissey calls them, I take to mean either depression or some other unknown, personal trouble. It's likely just to be his world view he is evoking in the last line, nevertheless, this opening hinges on the contemplative.

"All I can see is the never laid -
That's the never played, symphonies"

The tone changes here: Morrissey rebukes the meditative, introspective mood of the opening verse by making an assertion; all he can see is 'the never played symphonies'. What's strange about this is the correction he makes from 'laid' to 'played', and what this signifies. I always took this to be a pun; 'never laid' translating literally as 'never been laid', Morrissey is telling us that all he can see is his former celibacy, and he looks on it with regret. It's a fitting, witty lyrical trick; Morrissey oscillates between the introspective and the boorish.

The song continues with some more of the sullen world view evident in the opening verse:

"Black sky in the daytime
And I don't much mind dying
When there is nothing left, to care for
Any more"

I feel that the 'black sky in the daytime' is a reference to England, and English weather. 'Dying' could obviously mean literal death, based on the image of an elderly Morrissey on his death bed, but based on the whole passage, it can be rightly taken to mean the death of his pop career and status as musician. 'There is nothing to care for anymore' echoes Morrissey's sentiments of the modern state of music, and his own inability to exist in it or alongside it.

Other passages continue the contrast between sullen, world-weary introspection and sexual regret by utilizing word play:

"Your one, you knew you were one
And you slipped right through my fingers
No, not literally, but metaphorically
And now your all I see, as the light fades"

The 'one' mentioned in the song could be a particular object of desire in Morrissey's life, or symbolic of many people that romantically 'slipped right through' the singers fingers. The correction of 'not literally, but metaphorically' is once again an intentional sexual reference; the image of unfulfilled physical union. The final line confirms the final thoughts and focus of the dying protagonist; 'as the light fades' from his life, he can only see the unrequited loves and romantic attractions in his life, and dies in regret, not fulfilment.

The song is a quintessential piece of Moz genius and one of my favourite tracks. This concludes Roma De Moz's analysis.

[slum mum 1974]

I see this track is how i will be when i am lying on my deathbed, never mind Morrissey. His lyrics (although you think they are about him) are how i imagine i will feel.

"Your one, you knew you were one
And you slipped right through my fingers
No, not literally, but metaphorically
And now your all I see, as the light fades"

"The 'one' mentioned in the song could be a particular object of desire in Morrissey's life, or symbolic of many people that romantically 'slipped right through' the singers fingers. The correction of 'not literally, but metaphorically' is once again an intentional sexual reference; the image of unfulfilled physical union. The final line confirms the final thoughts and focus of the dying protagonist; 'as the light fades' from his life, he can only see the unrequited loves and romantic attractions in his life, and dies in regret, not fulfilment."

What you put there is probably one of the most poignant things i've read. All i have to do is change the name Morrissey to 'my' and it's how i will feel. :(

[lilikoi]

I think that the ‘dawn raid’ relates to a sudden awareness of a situation- of becoming illuminated about something which he likens to the light of dawn rushing in. So not a physical force, but just in his mind realising- whether he’s talking about a specifically personal situation or as Rogan suggests, his place in the music industry- how it’s all gone bad and he’s become disillusioned.

The ‘kick me down the stairs’ line I always loved, I take it that he’s talking about dying and how he’ll obviously be descending to hell, and not only that but he’s being thrown down in such a violent fashion. And as we’re apparently supposed to see flashes of our lives before we die, all he sees are the people who have made his life miserable. Such a sad idea.

So I think it's not specifically about suicide, but is using the metaphor of dying to describe the end of something that once bought him pleasure- be that life/ a relationship/ his career.


I don't believe all these songs are so autobiographical. The last lines suggest otherwise. His mother didn't think he was a loser - she was supportive of everything he did. And he never had bosses since he never worked...

[slum mum 1974]

didn't he have a couple of jobs, tax office and hospital like his dad, although it wasn't for long. sorry i'll butt out :o

[Roma De Moz]

I don't believe all these songs are so autobiographical. The last lines suggest otherwise. His mother didn't think he was a loser - she was supportive of everything he did. And he never had bosses since he never worked...

He worked as a Hospital Porter for a short while, but turned in his resignation after refusing an order to scrub the blood of a pair of boots. It was the same job title as his Dad. He also worked for the Inland Revenue for a brief spasm of time, funnily enough, but soon quit that job as well. So yes, he did have bosses. 'Bosses' and employment was a basis for 'Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now' after all.

[lilikoi]

He worked as a Hospital Porter for a short while, but turned in his resignation after refusing an order to scrub the blood of a pair of boots. It was the same job title as his Dad. He also worked for the Inland Revenue for a brief spasm of time, funnily enough, but soon quit that job as well. So yes, he did have bosses. 'Bosses' and employment was a basis for 'Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now' after all.


I still don't think that his songs are so autobiographical! and I certainly don't think that most of them deal with him and the music industry that's been oh so mean to him.

that would be quite - ahem - dull - wouldn't it?

I see much more intersting stories in these songs - inspired from the many books he read, I think.

and neverplayed symphonies, to me, is very selfexplanatory. to me it's simply a song about how people are obsessed with what they didn't get but fail to cherish what they had.

[Still Tired]

I don't believe all these songs are so autobiographical. The last lines suggest otherwise. His mother didn't think he was a loser - she was supportive of everything he did. And he never had bosses since he never worked...

I always considered Friday Mourning to be a very autobiographical song, maybe I'm wrong but that's my feeling about it. I think he's just talking broadly about how throughout his life- from being a child with teachers disapproving of him, to being a teen with parents being the ones to question him and finally, as an adult he still feels he's being pulled down by his 'bosses', whether that was his very short-term early jobs or the music labels. And maybe these are his own internal demons anyway, perhaps these people never actually expressed negativity towards him but it's his own doubts and insecurities of how he felt he was seen with people never believing in him or his potential. It's just describing the idea of always working against the grain and never feeling accepted by people or capable of pleasing them.

[Lost]

I think that the ‘dawn raid’ relates to a sudden awareness of a situation- of becoming illuminated about something which he likens to the light of dawn rushing in. So not a physical force, but just in his mind realising- whether he’s talking about a specifically personal situation or as Rogan suggests, his place in the music industry- how it’s all gone bad and he’s become disillusioned.

The ‘kick me down the stairs’ line I always loved, I take it that he’s talking about dying and how he’ll obviously be descending to hell, and not only that but he’s being thrown down in such a violent fashion. And as we’re apparently supposed to see flashes of our lives before we die, all he sees are the people who have made his life miserable. Such a sad idea.

So I think it's not specifically about suicide, but is using the metaphor of dying to describe the end of something that once bought him pleasure- be that life/ a relationship/ his career.

I've always considered the 'dawn raid' as him being arrested for something very 'dodgy' and the police kick him down the stairs.
Tie this in with morrissey's comment about going to prison on the Earl's Court live CD and ....well i wonder;)

[Please]

He worked as a Hospital Porter for a short while, but turned in his resignation after refusing an order to scrub the blood of a pair of boots. It was the same job title as his Dad. He also worked for the Inland Revenue for a brief spasm of time, funnily enough, but soon quit that job as well. So yes, he did have bosses. 'Bosses' and employment was a basis for 'Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now' after all.


he also has had bosses in the music industry i.e. 'The boy with the thorn in his side' and 'frankly mr shankly'

[nightandday]

Wow....that song was written for and about me, my favourite part was
'i broke into your room - i broke down in my room
touched your belongings there - and left a lock of my hair
another sign for you

you screamed into my face get the hell out of my place
another sign for me? can you forgive me?
for not understanding your ways'


Oh how true!:(
Do you like Siouxsie and the Banshees? Do you know the song "Suburban Relapse" from their first album? I think you might like that one, too.

sorry for being off topic, this belongs to Other Music. :o

[nightandday]

big mouth the 23rd? doesn't make that much sense...

I thought it was about suicide at first, but what about the "dawn raid" and "kicking down the stairs"? could it maybe be about a jealousy murder???
It's very interesting to read all those different intepretations of songs. I guess the meaning is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not going to discuss whether this or any other one of Morrissey's songs is autobiographical or not, so let's put that aside. I never took 'dawn raid' or 'kicking down the stairs' in the literal sense, so I never thought it could be about suicide or murder. I didn't think he was arrested either. Why is he dressed in black, anyway? The title says it's because he's in mourning (pun - morning = mourning), but what exactly for? Someone or something has died, but who or what? I always thought it was something.

I have to say that my interpretation was very simple, I just thought of it as a love song, and that it's about spending a night with someone you love but then leaving them in the morning. I thought that the narrator is someone who has been scarred in their youth and therefore has become unable to open up and connect to people and have relationships. He (let's just call the narrator a 'he' this time, it's easier, although I'm not saying that it has to be Morrissey, but it could be...) may appear very 'smug', but even after many years, this insecurity has never left him:

"And I will never stand naked
In front of you, or if I do
It won't be for a long time
Look once to me
Look once to me-then look away
Look once to me-then look away..."

"And as when they kick me down the stairs
I see the faces all lined up before me
Of teachers and of parents
And bosses, who
All share a point of view
"you are a loser
you are a loser" "

He says to the other person that he's been warning them for years - what of? Maybe that he's really unable to give and receive love and that it could never work.

"Friday mourning
I'm dressed in black
Douse the houselights
I'm not coming back
For years I warned you
Through tears I told you..."

The 'dawn raid' could just mean that the morning, the new day, suddenly makes everything seem different, and all the things that seemed possible at night (the time when feelings and passions often get unleashed) don't seem possible in the cold light of day, in the morning (the time to be rational and think of the future).

"This dawn raid
Soon put paid to all the things
I whispered to you at night time"

So, the morning (mourning) means the death of hope that love could be really realized. I didn't think that anybody is literally kicking him downstairs - it's just something inside him, something that he maybe can't control, is making him unable to have relationships; and it appears to him in the guise of all the people who have doubted him during his life - parents, teachers, bosses - who seem to be kicking him downstairs and forcing him to leave.

[Lost]

It's very interesting to read all those different intepretations of songs. I guess the meaning is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not going to discuss whether this or any other one of Morrissey's songs is autobiographical or not, so let's put that aside. I never took 'dawn raid' or 'kicking down the stairs' in the literal sense, so I never thought it could be about suicide or murder. I didn't think he was arrested either. Why is he dressed in black, anyway? The title says it's because he's in mourning (pun - morning = mourning), but what exactly for? Someone or something has died, but who or what? I always thought it was something.

I have to say that my interpretation was very simple, I just thought of it as a love song, and that it's about spending a night with someone you love but then leaving them in the morning. I thought that the narrator is someone who has been scarred in their youth and therefore has become unable to open up and connect to people and have relationships. He (let's just call the narrator a 'he' this time, it's easier, although I'm not saying that it has to be Morrissey, but it could be...) may appear very 'smug', but even after many years, this insecurity has never left him:

"And I will never stand naked
In front of you, or if I do
It won't be for a long time
Look once to me
Look once to me-then look away
Look once to me-then look away..."

"And as when they kick me down the stairs
I see the faces all lined up before me
Of teachers and of parents
And bosses, who
All share a point of view
"you are a loser
you are a loser" "

He says to the other person that he's been warning them for years - what of? Maybe that he's really unable to give and receive love and that it could never work.

"Friday mourning
I'm dressed in black
Douse the houselights
I'm not coming back
For years I warned you
Through tears I told you..."

The 'dawn raid' could just mean that the morning - the new day, the time to think rationally about the future - suddenly makes everything seem different, and all the things that seemed possible at night (the time when feelings and passions often get unleashed) don't seem possible in the cold light of day, in the morning (the time to be rational and think of the future).

"This dawn raid
Soon put paid to all the things
I whispered to you at night time"

So, the morning (mourning) means the death of hope that love could be really realized. I didn't think that anybody is literally kicking him downstairs - it's just something inside him, something that he maybe can't control, is making him unable to have relationships; and it appears to him in the guise of all the people who have doubted him during his life - parents, teachers, bosses - who seem to be kicking him downstairs and forcing him to leave.

Yes, i like that interpretation.....the death of a relationship....someone saying...or more to the point realising...."I can't do this anymore", but feeling guilty about it to the extent that it brings back all the old surpressed feelings of inadequacy, being a failure and a lack of self-worth.

[Claudia2006]

The Never Played Symphonies? What do people think?



First, I LOVE this song. But I find it so sad I can hardly listen to it.

I tend to read it very literally and, probably, simplistically. I think it's possible the "you" in the song, the one(s) who slips through his fingers, might be people who make it up on stage with him and who, for a brief moment, shower him with love and affection and then disappear. He says:

And you jumped into my face
And laughed and kissed me on the cheek
And then were gone

At some point it occurred to me that this perfectly describes what happens when people invade the stage. He might be saying when it's all over these people, with whom he had the briefest but most perfectly loving and affectionate interaction, are the ones he will be thinking about. And he makes the comparison between this person (people?) and the ones who know him better and are actually closer to him when he says:

I can't see those who tried to love me
Or those who felt they understood me
And I can't see those who
Very patiently
Put up with me

I think the "never played symphonies" could refer to what he imagines might have happened between the stage invaders (or any one/number of people who love him that he's met over the years) and him, given more time and different circumstances.

To me this really is one of the saddest songs he's ever written, because he sounds so resigned to isolation. The above stanza where he mentions "those who very patiently put up with me" is one of the most poignant things I've ever read. He's acknowledging that there are people who try to be close to him & love him, as opposed to loving him from a distance. By mentioning the people who are close to him in this way, it's like he's also acknowledging that they deserve better than he thinks he can give them.

Now I've managed to make myself quite depressed just thinking about this and typing this. This song honestly breaks my heart. :(

[nightandday]

First, I LOVE this song. But I find it so sad I can hardly listen to it.

I tend to read it very literally and, probably, simplistically.

Sometimes the literal and 'simplistic' interpretations are the best. I didn't think about the song that way, but now that I've read your interpretation, it makes perfect sense. It sounds like someone thinking about their life and wondering about all the things that could have been, and then wondering "who knows, maybe one of these people I've seen only for a few seconds and never actually gotten to know could have been the right one".

[lilikoi]

First, I LOVE this song. But I find it so sad I can hardly listen to it.

I tend to read it very literally and, probably, simplistically. I think it's possible the "you" in the song, the one(s) who slips through his fingers, might be people who make it up on stage with him and who, for a brief moment, shower him with love and affection and then disappear. He says:

And you jumped into my face
And laughed and kissed me on the cheek
And then were gone

At some point it occurred to me that this perfectly describes what happens when people invade the stage. :(

that this song should be about him and his fans and stage invaders is the last thing that comes to my mind - lol.

first of all - thow he is 47, I doubt that when he sings about someone who is about to die he means himself. at 47 you're hardly laying on your deathbed, hopefully.
to me this song is about a very old person refelcting on their life.

and kiss me on the cheek - well - I would say that means this person he was in love with only wanted friendship and he wanted more and regrest that it never happened.
"never laid symphonies" - I don't think he regrets that he "never laid" all these stage invaders - really - because - why would he - they would all be very willing anyway!

[nightandday]

first of all - thow he is 47, I doubt that when he sings about someone who is about to die he means himself. at 47 you're hardly laying on your deathbed, hopefully.
to me this song is about a very old person refelcting on their life.

That should apply to a few songs from ROTT where he mentions death and 'final hour of my life' - but that hasn't stopped people calling ROTT autobiographical. :D

[lilikoi]

That should apply to a few songs from ROTT where he mentions death and 'final hour of my life' - but that hasn't stopped people calling ROTT autobiographical. :D

yes, I know! I think people seems to want to believe it's ALL autobiographical.

[Still Tired]

That should apply to a few songs from ROTT where he mentions death and 'final hour of my life' - but that hasn't stopped people calling ROTT autobiographical. :D

I always thought the references to dying and ‘the final hour’ were more of a metaphysical description, and are in a similar vein to such lines as being ‘virtually dead’ and ‘gasping, dying, but somehow still alive’. It’s more a state of mind over something, not a physical deterioration but mental. So that could be dying inside over something, not living life to the full or just being so tired of everything it all may as well be over. The latter idea kind of being my interpretation of the attitude on Ringleader – particularly considering the tone of ‘At Last I Am Born’. But, I doubt many people agree with me so I’ll stop there!

And just to add, I think most anything somebody writes, especially something as intimate as song writing, can’t help but be autobiographical. If not in a literal sense, in the tone, the phrases used, and I’m sure lines are drawn in which refer to direct experiences from various sources and the sum of which construct a kind of cohesive narrative.