why all the Roarke related contempt?

[vincent]

is he such a horrid person after all? who knows how he truly feels, i always thought he was very loyal to the smiths and morrissey and not to mention integral.

[Paula]

> is he such a horrid person after all? who knows how he truly¿ feels, i always thought he was very loyal to the smiths and¿ morrissey and not to mention integral.

I agree!!

[Lifeguard Sleeping]

> is he such a horrid person after all? who knows how he truly¿ feels, i always thought he was very loyal to the smiths and¿ morrissey and not to mention integral.

After all, he WAS Johnny's best mate, wasn't he? I, for one, feel sorry for all his misfortune - say what you will about the guy, he was a great bass player for an awesome group.

[squeaky fromme]

> I agree!!

Really, you agree? No kidding? That tells us a lot about your own insight. You're too clever.

If you want to quickly understand why people don't like Rourke JUST LOOK AT HIM.

[Mr. So&So]

I can't stop sweating about you!

[Suzanne]

> After all, he WAS Johnny's best mate, wasn't he? I, for one,¿ feel sorry for all his misfortune - say what you will about the¿ guy, he was a great bass player for an awesome group.

I think it's kind of sad that such a good bass player can't get decent enough work to keep out of bankruptcy. Why is that? True, there are those people out there that will be broke no matter how much money you give them, but it looks like he's sort of kicking around in the dirt compared to what he could be doing.


The Roscoe P. Coletrane experience (http://home1.gte.net/suzsch/index.htm)

[Paula]

> is he such a horrid person after all?

To elaborate on this point -

Of course he wasn't a horrid person but many Morrissey fans are fiercely loyal to him so anyone Morrissey isn't fond of is basically looked upon as the enemy by his fans. It's quite insane really.

Actually what I find from talking to other Smiths/Moz fans is this: The ones who think that Moz did most of his best work in The Smiths have sympathy for Andy and Mike. Those fans appreciated the whole group. The fans that prefer Morrissey solo and really were only into The Smiths strictly for Morrissey think Andy and Mike are basically leeches.

[AnCoats]

¿ I can't stop sweating about you!

I'm so very sickened

Oh, I am so sickened NOW

--AnCoats

[Paul]

> To elaborate on this point -¿ Of course he wasn't a horrid person but many Morrissey fans are¿ fiercely loyal to him so anyone Morrissey isn't fond of is¿ basically looked upon as the enemy by his fans. It's quite¿ insane really.¿ Actually what I find from talking to other Smiths/Moz fans is¿ this: The ones who think that Moz did most of his best work in¿ The Smiths have sympathy for Andy and Mike. Those fans¿ appreciated the whole group. The fans that prefer Morrissey solo¿ and really were only into The Smiths strictly for Morrissey¿ think Andy and Mike are basically leeches.

Exactly. Like Morrissey ever gave a crap about Rourke and Joyce when the Smiths were together. Jesus Christ! He was practically in love with Johnny Marr! Common scenario: fans always love the lead singer and guitarist, but the bassist and the drummer? Screw them! So what if Joyce and Rourke got mucho dinero off of Morrissey? I don't see Morrissey hanging out at some homeless shelter anytime soon. When it comes to myself, I see the Smiths as Moz, Marr, Rourke and Joyce, not Moz/Marr. It was called the Smiths folks, not Morrissey and Marr like Page and Plant. None of the Smiths' songs would've had a complete outing without Rourke's bass or Joyce's drumming. I love Morrissey, but if he asked me to jump off a cliff, I'd say to him, @#!!! YOU! Who do you think you are? Damn, that won't sound as dramatic since the board is going to censor it, but you get my point.

[Jamie]

So why is everyone so contemptuous of Mr. Roarke? Fantasy Island was a charming show in its day. Ricardo Montalban was stunning, wasn't he? I like Mr. Roarke just fine.

It's Andy Rourke I have problems with...

Cheers,

Jamie

[Iain]

Andy Rourke made 10% of everything the Smiths ever earned. He also got the writers credit for a couple of Morrissey tracks, both of which ahve appeared on assorted compliations. This translates into a rather large pile of money, more than you and i will ever see.
Now the reasons for the loss of such a large amount of money could be varied. However, at best, he's certainly shown he isnt very intelligent, in a financial sense at any rate.
Essentially, im not going to shed any tears for a financially irresponsible once rich man who has pissed his money away..

[Mll]

> So why is everyone so contemptuous of Mr. Roarke? Fantasy Island¿ was a charming show in its day. Ricardo Montalban was stunning,¿ wasn't he? I like Mr. Roarke just fine.¿ It's Andy Rourke I have problems with...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ...sorry I just found that so damn amusing.. Esp. with sneaking Tattoo in the subject heading.. I forgot about that show...hehehe

Cheers~!
MLL

[Paula]

> Andy Rourke made 10% of everything the Smiths ever earned. He¿ also got the writers credit for a couple of Morrissey tracks,¿ both of which ahve appeared on assorted compliations. This¿ translates into a rather large pile of money,

A rather large pile of money you say? I don't know how much Andy actually made in The Smiths and neither do you. In fact, Morrissey has said countless times in interviews how little money he himself made in The Smiths and he made 40% plus songwriting royalties so...
As for the songs Andy wrote the music to (Yes I am Blind and Girl Least Likely To)I highly doubt he made a bundle from them. In fact
I bet he didn't make squat.¿ i will ever see. Now the reasons for the loss of such a large >amount of money could be varied. However, at best, he's certainly >shown he isnt very intelligent, in a financial sense at any rate.

Yes I agree he obviously squandered his money foolishly. I also believe that if Andy didn't squander his money in The Smiths he would not be a rich man today. Did Mike Joyce squander all his money too?¿ Essentially, im not going to shed any tears for a financially¿ irresponsible once rich man who has pissed his money away..

Well I haven't shed any tears either Iain. Simply put it's not about how Andy spent his money and how foolish he was with it. It's about how he and Mike were treated unfairly in the first place which I believe they were. I mean 10%? Come on, that's a slap in the face!

[boyleastlikelytoo(kakarot)]

how much do you think they should have gotten then?

25%?

[Iain]

> A rather large pile of money you say? I don't know how much Andy¿ actually made in The Smiths and neither do you.
Agreed i dont know exacly how much he made. But it shouldnt be forgotten that the Smiths were not some obscure band who sold handfulls of records. They were absolutely massive and sold huge quantities of records. So ill stand by my assertion that he has received a large amount of money from Smiths record sales.¿ As for the songs Andy wrote the music to (Yes I am Blind and¿ Girl Least Likely To)I highly doubt he made a bundle from them.¿ In fact¿ I bet he didn't make squat.

YOu should bear in mind that Yes I Am Blind was featured on Bona Drag, a record that sold hugely in Britain and America. To get a songwriting credit on that would certainly amount to more than "squat"¿ Yes I agree he obviously squandered his money foolishly. I also¿ believe that if Andy didn't squander his money in The Smiths he¿ would not be a rich man today. Did Mike Joyce squander all his¿ money too?

MIke Joyce may or may not have squandered money. He's certainly squandered any respect i had for him, but thats another issue.¿ Well I haven't shed any tears either Iain. Simply put it's not¿ about how Andy spent his money and how foolish he was with it.¿ It's about how he and Mike were treated unfairly in the first¿ place which I believe they were. I mean 10%? Come on, that's a¿ slap in the face!

All i will say on the above is that MIke Joyce did not change my life, Nor did Andy Rourke, or Johnny Marr. One person did and it was Morrissey. So to be honest I dont care much whether they received i 5 or 10 %. They were very fortunate individuals whose subsequnt careers have borne their good luck out.

[Mr. So&So]

> Agreed i dont know exacly how much he made. But it shouldnt be¿ forgotten that the Smiths were not some obscure band who sold¿ handfulls of records. They were absolutely massive and sold huge¿ quantities of records. So ill stand by my assertion that he has¿ received a large amount of money from Smiths record sales.

But like she said, the Mozzer claimed to make little on the Smiths, so if this is true, Andy and Mike were probably doing a bit worse.¿ YOu should bear in mind that Yes I Am Blind was featured on Bona¿ Drag, a record that sold hugely in Britain and America. To get a¿ songwriting credit on that would certainly amount to more than¿ "squat"

But do you honestly believe he was going to make a large amount of money off of two song writing credits?

Let's not get carried away.

I don't care how many copies it sold, I still don't believe it would have amounted to very much.¿ MIke Joyce may or may not have squandered money. He's certainly¿ squandered any respect i had for him, but thats another issue.

Oh, because he tried to secure a future for his wife and family?

That's the problem, Morrissey is responsible for nobody but himself.

At least Joyce attempted to communicate with people that were supposed to be his friends.

I think it's obvious that near the end of The Smiths time, Morrissey was beginning to believe that there was only one member of The Smiths.

Hell, even Johnny feels no hard feelings for the matter.

I think deep down he knew that Morrissey had the financial matters all planned out from the very beginning.

It's blatantly obvious that there was never the intention of "The Smiths" as a band financially.

At least in Morrissey's notebook.

Yet, Morrissey always claimed their importance and his devotion to them in interviews.

But when it involved money, it was "Joyce and Andy who?"

All of those interviews where he claimed to love the other mebers just as much, was utter bullshlit!

At least Joyce showed up for gigs on time and was reliable.

Most people would have gotten fired for the shlit that Morrissey pulled in the days of The Smiths.

It amazes me that people on this forum still believe that Morrissey is getting scrwed around by everyone.

Here is a man who had only bedroom ambitions until a man named John Marr, sought him out, and basically was his artistic nurse maid.

Remeber something, Morrissey had the luxury of resigning in his room at the end of the day, watch a few movies, read a few books, and come up with often plagiarized phrases to dress his songs with.

Oh, and sifting through his collection of photographs to use for album covers.

I think you would agree that the musicians have a rougher go at it in terms of the music making process.

Do you believe Morrissey honestly cared about learning how to produce an album?

No, because momma Marr was there to take care of it.

Do you truly think this man ever had it that bad?

Johnny was the work horse, and without him there would never have been The Smiths, period.

You know as well as I do that Morrissey could have never struck out on his own, and forged a career by himself.

He was already established when he chose to pursue his solo career.

Mike, and Andy desreve just as much credit.

It takes more than album covers, and witty interviews to keep a group running, which I'm sure you are aware of.

Mike Joyce had every right to pursue a court case against Morrissey, and the way Morrissey handled it was simply childish.

It may be cute to send out a childish fatwahs in an interview or whatever, but to write a God-awful song about it shows, to me, that Mozzer hasn't grown much as a person.

The saddest thing anyone could ever not do in their life is to grow and learn.

There is nothing productive about remainig in the same mode of thought for the rest of your life, and Morrissey has shown no evidence of significant change.

I think it displays a bit of childishness that people on this forum cannot see past their unhealthy devotion to Morrissey, and realize that a lot of who he is, is not necessarily admirable.

Whether Andy squanderd his money or not, he should have received his fair share.

Andy's biggest mistake was not pursuing a court case like Joyce.

It's funny, while Andy and Joyce were in the studio slaving away, Morrissey was probably out buying exotic leather shoes and James Dean memorabilia with their share.

I think your loss of respect should be more reasonable, and well directed.¿ All i will say on the above is that MIke Joyce did not change my¿ life, Nor did Andy Rourke, or Johnny Marr. One person did and it¿ was Morrissey. So to be honest I dont care much whether they¿ received i 5 or 10 %. They were very fortunate individuals whose¿ subsequnt careers have borne their good luck out.

No, Morrissey was a very fortunate individual, who slowly, over time began to believe his own bull@#!!!.

The others just got caught in the thick.

I have always felt that there would still be The Smiths if Morrissey knew how to communicate like a normal human being.

To say you don't care, simply because Joyce, Johnny, or Andy, didn't write the lyrics to "I Know It's Over," displays that you had no true intentions of debating this subject based on reality.

Let's put things in perspective.

Your are going on about a man who only wrote pop songs.

If you should feel greatful for anyone, you should feel grateful for "Bob the cave man," the guy who discovered the wheel.

He did more for your life, and this world than Morrissey ever has or will.

Morrissey is just an entertainer, who could care less how our lives function.

Yet, he sits back in luxury while we argue over his past, present and future.

It seems the more he shuns and insults us with ridiculous compilations and LPs, the more devoted we become.

We are carrying on like battered house-wives.

It's funny, in the end, Mike and Andy got screwed by a man who always claimed he didn't.

-So&So

[Iain]

> But like she said, the Mozzer claimed to make little on the¿ Smiths, so if this is true, Andy and Mike were probably doing a¿ bit worse.¿ But do you honestly believe he was going to make a large amount¿ of money off of two song writing credits?¿ Let's not get carried away.¿ I don't care how many copies it sold, I still don't believe it¿ would have amounted to very much.

i didnt say a large amount of money, i said it amounted to more than squat.¿ Oh, because he tried to secure a future for his wife and family?¿ That's the problem, Morrissey is responsible for nobody but¿ himself.

Arent we all only responsible for ourselves. Does Morrisseys lack of family ties make him a less valuable human being?¿ At least Joyce attempted to communicate with people that were¿ supposed to be his friends.

Didnt Morrissey hold out an olive branch by having them record on some of the early singles. pklus having them play at Wolverhampton?¿ I think it's obvious that near the end of The Smiths time,¿ Morrissey was beginning to believe that there was only one¿ member of The Smiths.

Why is this obvious? It's common knowledge that morrissey was devastated by the split. Although certainly Morrisseys out put post smiths would indicate that he had less reason to be devastated than any other of the band members¿ Hell, even Johnny feels no hard feelings for the matter.¿ I think deep down he knew that Morrissey had the financial¿ matters all planned out from the very beginning.¿ It's blatantly obvious that there was never the intention of¿ "The Smiths" as a band financially.¿ At least in Morrissey's notebook.

Well Johnny marr signed that contract. Johnny Marr also benefited, he also contested the court case. So its silly to attempt to absolve Marr of any blame.¿ Yet, Morrissey always claimed their importance and his devotion¿ to them in interviews.¿ But when it involved money, it was "Joyce and Andy¿ who?"¿ All of those interviews where he claimed to love the other¿ mebers just as much, was utter bullshlit!

Times change, people move on. Do you ahve the same friends you had 10 yrs ago?¿ At least Joyce showed up for gigs on time and was reliable.

Isnt Morrisseys elusiveness part of the appeal. if the Smiths wanted a "professional" they could ahve jsut got Phil Collins in or something. And beelvie me ive been on the receving end of numerous Morrissey cancelations so i am well aware of the hurt they can cause¿ Most people would have gotten fired for the shlit that Morrissey¿ pulled in the days of The Smiths.

Well Morrissey isnt most people. He was what made the Smiths unique - what gave them that indefinable something¿ It amazes me that people on this forum still believe that¿ Morrissey is getting scrwed around by everyone.¿ Here is a man who had only bedroom ambitions until a man named¿ John Marr, sought him out, and basically was his artistic nurse¿ maid.¿ Remeber something, Morrissey had the luxury of resigning in his¿ room at the end of the day, watch a few movies, read a few¿ books, and come up with often plagiarized phrases to dress his¿ songs with.

Im astonished anyone on this board cna denigrate Morrisseys involvement in the SMiths. He wrote and writes wonderul lyrics. He also, along with Johnny , handled most of the business side of the band, the marketing campaigsn, tour planning. To suggest Morrissey had an easy time of it is a nonsense¿ Oh, and sifting through his collection of photographs to use for¿ album covers.¿ I think you would agree that the musicians have a rougher go at¿ it in terms of the music making process.¿ Do you believe Morrissey honestly cared about learning how to¿ produce an album?

Well he certainly cared how it sounded. He may or may not ahve been as heavily involved in the production as Marr - neither you or i know¿ No, because momma Marr was there to take care of it.¿ Do you truly think this man ever had it that bad?

Well i would suggest losing a court case, a manager, a video director and a producer in the space of a few yrs doesnt make for a pleasant state of mind¿ Johnny was the work horse, and without him there would never¿ have been The Smiths, period.

And without Morrissey the smiths would jsut ahve been a good band- no more, no less¿ You know as well as I do that Morrissey could have never struck¿ out on his own, and forged a career by himself.

He may or may not have - im jsut thankful he got out of that bedroom¿ He was already established when he chose to pursue his solo¿ career.¿ Mike, and Andy desreve just as much credit.

Nonsense - they turned up, played bass and drums adequately and went home and watched Coronation Street or whatever¿ It takes more than album covers, and witty interviews to keep a¿ group running, which I'm sure you are aware of.

Yes it also takes explosive live shows, wonderful records, vocals that can make your heart stop - and Morrissey provided them in abundance¿ Mike Joyce had every right to pursue a court case against¿ Morrissey, and the way Morrissey handled it was simply childish.¿ It may be cute to send out a childish fatwahs in an interview or¿ whatever, but to write a God-awful song about it shows, to me,¿ that Mozzer hasn't grown much as a person.

Morrissey has every right to defend himself in whatever way he sees fit. ANd isnt the desire for revenge a strong motive in us all?¿ The saddest thing anyone could ever not do in their life is to¿ grow and learn.

Morrissey - " dont rake up my mistakes, i know exactly what theya re"¿ There is nothing productive about remainig in the same mode of¿ thought for the rest of your life, and Morrissey has shown no¿ evidence of significant change.

But any time Morrissey does something unexpected he is accused of hypocrisy - he cant win.¿ I think it displays a bit of childishness that people on this¿ forum cannot see past their unhealthy devotion to Morrissey, and¿ realize that a lot of who he is, is not necessarily admirable.

Some parts of Morrissey may well be undesirable. But he means a lot to me - thats what matters.¿ Whether Andy squanderd his money or not, he should have received¿ his fair share.¿ Andy's biggest mistake was not pursuing a court case like Joyce.

He would very possibly be dead if he had got that money¿ It's funny, while Andy and Joyce were in the studio slaving¿ away, Morrissey was probably out buying exotic leather shoes and¿ James Dean memorabilia with their share.

Its always Morrissey you blame-. i dont see any comment about Johnny Marr buying expensive guitars and taking " how to pose like a rock star twat" lessons¿ I think your loss of respect should be more reasonable, and well¿ directed.¿ No, Morrissey was a very fortunate individual, who slowly, over¿ time began to believe his own bull @#!!! .

If you beelvie this, why do you even come to this board? Is Morrissey really so unworthy of respect?¿ The others just got caught in the thick.¿ I have always felt that there would still be The Smiths if¿ Morrissey knew how to communicate like a normal human being.

Im glad there isnt a Smiths. If they hadnt split we would have been denied " Now My HEart is Full", " The Teachers are Afraid of the Pupils", " Jack the Ripper" and various other wonderful songs¿ To say you don't care, simply because Joyce, Johnny, or Andy,¿ didn't write the lyrics to "I Know It's Over,"¿ displays that you had no true intentions of debating this¿ subject based on reality.¿ Let's put things in perspective.¿ Your are going on about a man who only wrote pop songs.¿ If you should feel greatful for anyone, you should feel grateful¿ for "Bob the cave man," the guy who discovered the¿ wheel.¿ He did more for your life, and this world than Morrissey ever¿ has or will.

Pop music is a powerful medium -a s are words - Morrissey is a master of both. My life would simply have not been as pleasurable without him.¿ Morrissey is just an entertainer, who could care less how our¿ lives function.

Yes and hes a very very good one.¿ Yet, he sits back in luxury while we argue over his past,¿ present and future.¿ It seems the more he shuns and insults us with ridiculous¿ compilations and LPs, the more devoted we become.

You dont like them? Dont buy them.¿ We are carrying on like battered house-wives.¿ It's funny, in the end, Mike and Andy got screwed by a man who¿ always claimed he didn't.

Oh and you had to bring sex into it didnt you. ANd again Marr escapes scot free

[boyleastlikelytoo(kakarot)]

hmmm...so and so actually made a honest argument this time...though i must say moz and marr in my book deserved the larger part of the royalties..though rourke and joyce should have gotten more then 10% but thats my humble opinion.......I ask you all how do you know any of this is true, what has been said from any of these people that were in the smiths? I am sure they are all bitter and I am sure that moz was partly at fault...but how many of you could say so for sure? not me! I haven't got a clue......listen to the smiths listen to moz love the music....

[Paula]

> YOu should bear in mind that Yes I Am Blind was featured on Bona¿ Drag, a record that sold hugely in Britain and America. To get a¿ songwriting credit on that would certainly amount to more than¿ "squat"

We will have to ask Andy how much money he made from them.¿ MIke Joyce may or may not have squandered money. He's certainly¿ squandered any respect i had for him, but thats another issue.

Well you just completely avoided my point - for obvious reasons.

So you have lost respect for Mike because.... Why because he went after what should have been his? If it was the reverse situation and Morrissey felt he was done wrong and was owed something you would feel quite differently, I am sure. You would be there at the courtroom holding up signs of support for him. And that is simply because all of your reasoning is based on emotion rather than logic. And just think I'm the woman in this conversation!! HAHAHA!¿ All i will say on the above is that MIke Joyce did not change my¿ life, Nor did Andy Rourke, or Johnny Marr. One person did and it¿ was Morrissey

First off Morrissey could not have brought his message to you without Marr. Second off we all know that Morrissey wrote brilliant lyrics which spoke to his fans but it is not necessary to diminish the efforts of Andy and Mike to put Morrissey at the top of the totem pole. It is not necessary to make it out like they were worthless leeches, that attitude makes me sick.

Aslo Iain, did you ever stop to think that maybe Morrissey was fortunate to be associated with Johnny Marr? It works both ways. They were lucky to find each other. They worked wonderfully together and each brought something special to the partnership. One could not have existed without the other.¿ So to be honest I dont care much whether they¿ received i 5 or 10 %. They were very fortunate individuals whose¿ subsequnt careers have borne their good luck out.

I also have a problem when I hear all those Smiths interviews where Morrissey spoke of their "group mentality" what the hell was he talking about? What he wanted the public to preceive was obviously a lie.

You have a dreadful attitude Iain. To say that you don't care if Andy and Mike received even 5% is incredibly ignorant and sounds a bit spiteful. I mean why pay them at all then. They were just lucky to be along for the ride to hear you talk. That is not the way a group works I'm sorry to say. Unfortunately for Morrissey, until he can play drums and bass, he is going to have to grudgingly dole out what is due to those that can.

[Paula]

> how much do you think they should have gotten then?¿ 25%?

I think they should have received the same as Morrissey and Marr for the tours and for their playing on the albums.

A group works best when everyones efforts are appreciated. I don't think Andy and Mike were appreciated and I find that sad. Sure Morrissey and Marr were the main force in The Smiths, Andy and Mike knew that, they're not stupid. They just wanted to be treated fairly. Is that too much to ask from your bandmates who are supposed to be your friends?

Take a group like REM for example. They all respect each other and what each member brings to the group. That's why their band works and has stayed together. I don't like the elitist attitude that exists within some bands. There is no need to slap yourself on the back at the expense of someone else.

PS - I'm sorry Kakarot those last two paragraphs were not directed at you, I'm just ranting again!! :)

[Paula]

You know the more I think about this whole Smiths thing and peoples attitudes it pisses me off! People who don't think Johnny was just as important as Morrissey in the Smiths are just fooling themselves. He was the driving force behind that group. He is the one who spent all those hours in the studio taking everything upon himself to make those records what they are. He has said in interviews how stressful the whole thing was for him and that it was his reason for leaving. People should have a lot more respect for his efforts.

And to Iain: sure you relate to Morrissey's lyrics but it was Marr's melodies that brought those lyrics to life!!!!!!

[vincent]

> I think it's kind of sad that such a good bass player can't get¿ decent enough work to keep out of bankruptcy. Why is that? True,¿ there are those people out there that will be broke no matter¿ how much money you give them, but it looks like he's sort of¿ kicking around in the dirt compared to what he could be doing.

no reason to harbor any form of disdain for the man. the arts are rife with financial difficulties for all involved. "in the midst of life we are in debt etcetera".

[Suzanne]

> no reason to harbor any form of disdain for the man. the arts¿ are rife with financial difficulties for all involved. "in¿ the midst of life we are in debt etcetera".

I never did harbor any disdain for him, and I don't know where you get that idea from...unless you had deliberately misread something I previously wrote, then one wonders why are you devoting threads (along with the sci fi thing which actually turned out to be longer than the actual sci fi thread) picking on stuff I have to say.

I was actually pissed off at all the losers who were saying "it serves him right" because that is a bunch of crap. His financial situation didn't imposition them in any minute way, and it's so boring and predictable that people would do such a thing, and it's not that he did anything bad that he's getting that flack. It's only because he no longer has anything to do with Morrissey.

Anti-Morrissey
Pro-Morrissey

It's as simple as that. It's not because of the lawsuit, because even if the lawsuit went through, and Morrissey decided to still let him play in the band, everyone would think it was the greatest thing on the planet.

Yes, there are financial difficulties, but he's starting with an advantage. He's not an idiot off the street. Just the name of the band he used to be in should get him through the door even if he was a falling down drunk who couldn't play 3 notes. I mean...session work isn't bad money.


If you have real audio and :60 to spare (http://home1.gte.net/suzsch/subdirectory/suzy.htm)

[Iain]

> We will have to ask Andy how much money he made from them.¿ Well you just completely avoided my point - for obvious reasons.¿ So you have lost respect for Mike because.... Why because he¿ went after what should have been his? If it was the reverse¿ situation and Morrissey felt he was done wrong and was owed¿ something you would feel quite differently, I am sure. You would¿ be there at the courtroom holding up signs of support for him.¿ And that is simply because all of your reasoning is based on¿ emotion rather than logic. And just think I'm the woman in this¿ conversation!! HAHAHA!

I wont deny Morrissey sparks a strong emotional reaction in me. Im cedrtainly not ashamed of it. I feel that Morrissey was what gave the Smiths that certsain quality that made them unique. And yes i do think Morrissey and Marr were entitled to more than the other two. Does that really make me such a horriible person?¿ First off Morrissey could not have brought his message to you¿ without Marr. Second off we all know that Morrissey wrote¿ brilliant lyrics which spoke to his fans but it is not necessary¿ to diminish the efforts of Andy and Mike to put Morrissey at the¿ top of the totem pole. It is not necessary to make it out like¿ they were worthless leeches, that attitude makes me sick.

I at no stage said they were leeches.¿ Aslo Iain, did you ever stop to think that maybe Morrissey was¿ fortunate to be associated with Johnny Marr? It works both ways.¿ They were lucky to find each other. They worked wonderfully¿ together and each brought something special to the partnership.¿ One could not have existed without the other.

Also, i never dienied Johnny MArr was hugely important in Morrisseys career. Why whould I? its obviously true.¿ I also have a problem when I hear all those Smiths interviews¿ where Morrissey spoke of their "group mentality" what¿ the hell was he talking about? What he wanted the public to¿ preceive was obviously a lie.¿ You have a dreadful attitude Iain. To say that you don't care if¿ Andy and Mike received even 5% is incredibly ignorant and sounds¿ a bit spiteful. I mean why pay them at all then. They were just¿ lucky to be along for the ride to hear you talk. That is not the¿ way a group works I'm sorry to say. Unfortunately for Morrissey,¿ until he can play drums and bass, he is going to have to¿ grudgingly dole out what is due to those that can.

You've misread me - maybe my fault. What i mean is I dont waste much time thinking about thse matters really. And if Andy and Mike had received only 5 %, they would ahve been rather silly to accpet it.
And yes i do think they were lucky to be along for the ride. i don't reallys ee how that can be denied.

[Iain]

¿ And to Iain: sure you relate to Morrissey's lyrics but it was¿ Marr's melodies that brought those lyrics to life!!!!!!

Yes of course, and i adore those songs.But i beleive that those songs, in the hands of another singer , would have reamined only good songs. Morrissey made them something else. In the same way that " Now My HEart Is Full", in the hands of Morrissey, is a very very special song, but in the hands of, for example, Adam Ant, wouldnt scale the same heights.

[Paula]

> I wont deny Morrissey sparks a strong emotional reaction in me.¿ Im cedrtainly not ashamed of it. I feel that Morrissey was what¿ gave the Smiths that certsain quality that made them unique.

I agree with that of course. That wasn't the point though. Had that been all you said we wouldn't debating right now :)¿And yes i do think Morrissey and Marr were entitled to more than the¿ other two. Does that really make me such a horriible person?

I never said you were a horrible person. I said your attitude was dreadful.¿ I at no stage said they were leeches.

You implied it.¿ Also, i never dienied Johnny MArr was hugely important in¿ Morrisseys career. Why whould I? its obviously true.

In Morrissey's career? Do you mean hugely important in The Smiths? :) Hahaa!! You really revealed yourself now Iain!! heehee

Anyway, you didn't say that directly but by saying things in the way you did - and just did again :) you were elevating him to a level that implied nothing else mattered which you virtually said. I was simply stating that was harsh.¿ You've misread me - maybe my fault.

No I didn't misread you. You maybe didn't write exactly what you felt but I didn't misread what you wrote.¿What i mean is I dont waste much time thinking about thse matters >really. And if Andy and Mike had received only 5 %, they would ahve >been rather silly to accpet it.

I think it was more complicated than that though. I don't believe they accepted 10%. I feel they were misled.¿ And yes i do think they were lucky to be along for the ride. i¿ don't reallys ee how that can be denied.

Some things are better left unsaid. If you were a drummer or a bassist in a band I don't think you would appreciate being told you were just along for the ride. Again there is no reason to have to diminish their roles, that's all I am saying.

I think it's a shame that it had to end up in court. I think it's a bit sad that Morrissey and Marr didn't feel that Andy and Mike were entitled to an equal amount for their studio work and for the tours. I mean they are being treated like backing singers for gods sake!! And surely Morrissey and Marr can spare it now. I also believe that had it been up to Marr this wouldn't have happened. I think it was Morrissey's doing and unfortunately Johnny went along with it. Morrissey has millions now, it wasn't worth going to court over. It wasn't worth all this ugliness.

[nhon]

> That's the problem, Morrissey is responsible for nobody but¿ himself.¿ At least Joyce attempted to communicate with people that were¿ supposed to be his friends.¿ I think it's obvious that near the end of The Smiths time,¿ Morrissey was beginning to believe that there was only one¿ member of The Smiths.

morrissey always has a problem with himself and his relationships with people...(the shyness, the celibacy, depression) this is something that he doesn't choose to be but it's part of him and it's part of his life.. and all this is written and sang in the his songs that we all love so much.. people shouldn't pound on him for this..
we all have our problems..¿ It amazes me that people on this forum still believe that¿ Morrissey is getting scrwed around by everyone.

yes.. he is getting screwed by mike joyece.. let's not put the greed entirely on morrissey.... joyce and rourke did not think up the songs.. they were just the beat to the smiths.. they contributed very little creativity, so why should they deserve fair share? if i was drumming for the smiths.. i would be grateful that i'm drumming to songs that is thought up by morrissey and marr.. becuase they are the one who wrote the songs.. and if i were to the one who co-write the songs to make the smiths sound like the way they are.. then yes.. i do think i deserve credit and part of a fair share.. but no.. i only play the drums as told.. just like any other drummer who would play the drums.. and if it wasn't for morrissey and marr's creativity.. i wouldn't even be getting 10 or 25 percent .. period..
the smiths wasn't a happy family.. or do they have to be?¿ Here is a man who had only bedroom ambitions until a man named¿ John Marr, sought him out, and basically was his artistic nurse¿ maid.¿ Remeber something, Morrissey had the luxury of resigning in his¿ room at the end of the day, watch a few movies, read a few¿ books, and come up with often plagiarized phrases to dress his¿ songs with.

morrissey and marr were made to be together.. where is morrissey now without marr? and where is marr now????.. without morrissey? and ofcourse .. morrissey became became famouse with the marr's musical genius.. but let's not deny the fact that marr became famous with the help of morrissey as well.. listen the smiths.. listen to the smiths for a minute and imagine the absence of morrissey's voice.. johnny's background music wouldn't make any sense.. and the same for morrissey's singing alone.. it wouldn't make any sense either.. .. but put the two together.. you have a beautiful smiths song that weaves together so well.. let's not criticize morrissey for holding a simple job to just writing lyrics alone.. dont forget that he doesn't recite his words like a classroom oral report.. no, he sings them.. every word is a beautiful musical note.. in his creative way.. in his poetic way.. for example.. give the plain words of any of morrissey's lyrics to an artist and ask them how they would sing it.. i'm sure it wouldn't be even comparable to how morrissey would sing it.... good music isn't how much sweat you put into it.. how how hard you bang on the drums or strum the guitar.. it's the idea.. the passion .. the heart that makes good music.. sure.. johnny plays the guitar.. but he never ask HOW morrissey should sing his words..¿ Do you believe Morrissey honestly cared about learning how to¿ produce an album?¿ No, because momma Marr was there to take care of it.

Yes.. it's unfair on johnny.. maybe he deserves 40 percent..¿ Johnny was the work horse, and without him there would never¿ have been The Smiths, period.¿ You know as well as I do that Morrissey could have never struck¿ out on his own, and forged a career by himself.¿ He was already established when he chose to pursue his solo¿ career.

Morrissey did very well when he was on his own.. I was first introduced to Morrissey.. not The Smiths.. songs such as suede head.. everyday is like sunday.. international playboys ... his whole damn viva hate.. bona drag.. and kill uncle album made me love him more than the cure or depeche mode or any one on the radio.. can't deny that they are good songs... i had little regard for the smiths because their music was a more difficult to grow into.. and i'm sure there are moz fans who started the same way i did.. dont give allll the credit to marr.. the smiths was morrissey and marr.. never marr alone.. the smiths wouldn't even be the smiths without morrissey..¿ Mike, and Andy desreve just as much credit.¿ It takes more than album covers, and witty interviews to keep a¿ group running, which I'm sure you are aware of.¿ Mike Joyce had every right to pursue a court case against¿ Morrissey, and the way Morrissey handled it was simply childish.

morrissey's album covers and witty interviews inspired alot of fans.. that's more money for the smiths.. mike joyce has every right to pursue a court case against moz becuase he's just as greedy as moz...morrissey has always been childish.. it shows in his lyrics and alot of his fans can relate to them..¿ It may be cute to send out a childish fatwahs in an interview or¿ whatever, but to write a God-awful song about it shows, to me,¿ that Mozzer hasn't grown much as a person.¿ The saddest thing anyone could ever not do in their life is to¿ grow and learn.¿ There is nothing productive about remainig in the same mode of¿ thought for the rest of your life, and Morrissey has shown no¿ evidence of significant change.

that's his problem..that's his character..¿ I think it displays a bit of childishness that people on this¿ forum cannot see past their unhealthy devotion to Morrissey, and¿ realize that a lot of who he is, is not necessarily admirable.

what you're talking about has nothing to do with his music but with his personal problems.. who morrissey is is his business.. how he live his lifestyle is his business.. how the smiths deal with eachotehr is their business.. morrissey is not obligated to display a healthy lifestyle to you or me or to his fans.. his job is to make music at his own liking.. there's is nothing unhealthy about being devoted to him.. his music means terribly alot to me than anything i've listen.. and i'm sure it's the same for most of his fans... this man should be admired.. becuase he's given us his music.. dont judge him for his personal life... save that for the daily soap operas..¿ Let's put things in perspective.¿ Your are going on about a man who only wrote pop songs.¿ If you should feel greatful for anyone, you should feel grateful¿ for "Bob the cave man," the guy who discovered the¿ wheel.¿ He did more for your life, and this world than Morrissey ever¿ has or will.

i dont think morrissey fans are so absorbed into morrissey that they are completely blinded by everything else... there's no wrong to being devoted to anyone or anything..¿ Morrissey is just an entertainer, who could care less how our¿ lives function.

i dont think he suppose to anyways..¿ Yet, he sits back in luxury while we argue over his past,¿ present and future.

it's something worth arguing about or discussed, becuase it's just simply........... interesting..¿ It seems the more he shuns and insults us with ridiculous¿ compilations and LPs, the more devoted we become.

i remember he once said.. that he will continue to make music even if nobody listens to him.. the guys' business is to make music.. and he never shove his music down our throat.. we choose to listen to him or not.. why is it an insult to you that he failed to please you? gawd.. i would hate stand in front a crowd with that kind of attitude and expectations..

It's funny, in the end, Mike and Andy got screwed by a man who¿ always claimed he didn't.¿ -So&So

[Iain]

Hmm we seem to be going back over old ground so i won't let things disintegrate into a 300 word rant re- writing what i previously wrote but on a relatively minor point¿ In Morrissey's career? Do you mean hugely important in The¿ Smiths? :) Hahaa!! You really revealed yourself now Iain!!¿ heehee

Yes I meant what i said. I am a Morrissey fan, not a Smiths fan. The lives of the other 3 don't concern me much. I fell in love with the Smiths all those years ago because of Morrissey, as I've said more times than i wish to recollect. Its all Morrissey to me, whether his song writing partner is Johnny Marr, Boz Boorer or any one of the numerous others.

[vincent]

> I never did harbor any disdain for him, and I don't know where¿ you get that idea from...unless you had deliberately misread¿ something I previously wrote, then one wonders why are you¿ devoting threads (along with the sci fi thing which actually¿ turned out to be longer than the actual sci fi thread) picking¿ on stuff I have to say.¿ I was actually pissed off at all the losers who were saying¿ "it serves him right" because that is a bunch of crap.¿ His financial situation didn't imposition them in any minute¿ way, and it's so boring and predictable that people would do¿ such a thing, and it's not that he did anything bad that he's¿ getting that flack. It's only because he no longer has anything¿ to do with Morrissey.¿ Anti-Morrissey¿ Pro-Morrissey¿ It's as simple as that. It's not because of the lawsuit, because¿ even if the lawsuit went through, and Morrissey decided to still¿ let him play in the band, everyone would think it was the¿ greatest thing on the planet.¿ Yes, there are financial difficulties, but he's starting with an¿ advantage. He's not an idiot off the street. Just the name of¿ the band he used to be in should get him through the door even¿ if he was a falling down drunk who couldn't play 3 notes. I¿ mean...session work isn't bad money.

the sci-fi thing was a harmless stab suzanne for i would never deliberately anger you, actually, it was very informative. i just end up rooting for the underdog in certain situations and i did, erroneously mind you, think you were joining the lynch mob that is out to get our dear andy. arguing is a wonderful pastime though..... here at m.solo WE ARE ALL on the same side.

[Suzanne]

> the sci-fi thing was a harmless stab suzanne for i would never¿ deliberately anger you, actually, it was very informative.

heh heh heh....I can say that the concept of someone not trying to anger me is funny.

"watch out! She has that high powered laser beam and THE JUICER..."¿i¿ just end up rooting for the underdog in certain situations and i¿ did, erroneously mind you, think you were joining the lynch mob¿ that is out to get our dear andy.

It's a church of one.¿arguing is a wonderful pastime¿ though.....

Yes it is. Too bad my boss doesn't see it that way.¿here at m.solo WE ARE ALL on the same side.

On the side of beelzebub....


Now currently playing sometime between 9-9:15 at an open mic near you (http://home1.gte.net/suzsch/subdirectory/suzy.htm)

[Lifeguard Butting In]

Here is my unsolicited contribution:¿ That's the problem, Morrissey is responsible for nobody but¿ himself.

And his mother, don't forget her! Anyway, how do YOU know? For all we know, he's putting all his aunties' kids through college.¿ I think deep down he knew that Morrissey had the financial¿ matters all planned out from the very beginning.¿ It's blatantly obvious that there was never the intention of¿ "The Smiths" as a band financially.¿ At least in Morrissey's notebook.

If you were to look in Johnny's notebook, you'd probably see the same thing.¿ At least Joyce showed up for gigs on time and was reliable.¿ Most people would have gotten fired for the shlit that Morrissey¿ pulled in the days of The Smiths.

Well, chalk it up to his massive popularity! I agree: MOST people WOULD have gotten fired, but it's obvious that Morrissey was special enough for people to have put up w/ the "shlit" that he pulled.¿ Here is a man who had only bedroom ambitions until a man named¿ John Marr, sought him out, and basically was his artistic nurse¿ maid.

I've said this again and again: the Smiths were about the genius of the collaboration of 2 people: Johnny Marr AND Morrissey. Who knows what would have happened to their musical careers if they'd never met? And Johnny was hardly his "artistic nursemaid." Where I come from, it's called "songwriting partner."¿ Remeber something, Morrissey had the luxury of resigning in his¿ room at the end of the day, watch a few movies, read a few¿ books, and come up with often plagiarized phrases to dress his¿ songs with.¿ Oh, and sifting through his collection of photographs to use for¿ album covers.

All these were elements of what endeared the Smiths to us. Your point?¿ I think you would agree that the musicians have a rougher go at¿ it in terms of the music making process.

Hmmm...assuming they know how to play their instruments, I'd say the level of creativity required is about the same, perhaps a BIT more towards the musician's side. But, unlike most groups, the Smiths were appreciated for the lyrics, just as much as the actual music.¿ Do you believe Morrissey honestly cared about learning how to¿ produce an album?¿ No, because momma Marr was there to take care of it.

And Andy and Mike did? He probably DIDN'T care so much back then. What has that got to do w/ anything? You've strayed so far from the original argument.¿ Do you truly think this man ever had it that bad?¿ Johnny was the work horse, and without him there would never¿ have been The Smiths, period.

That's not true.¿ You know as well as I do that Morrissey could have never struck¿ out on his own, and forged a career by himself.

Who's to say who else would have strolled up to his front walk?¿ Mike, and Andy desreve just as much credit.

Credit for what?? Writing the songs? Writing the lyrics? Choosing the artwork for the record sleeves? Producing the albums? All these things you've called Morrissey on, weren't even ATTEMPTED from the other guys. I agree that they were each talented in their own rights, and they each contributed to the Smiths, but their contributions do not equal Morrissey's, not by a long-shot.¿ Mike Joyce had every right to pursue a court case against¿ Morrissey, and the way Morrissey handled it was simply childish.

Well, I'll be damned! Something we BOTH agree on!¿ It may be cute to send out a childish fatwahs in an interview or¿ whatever, but to write a God-awful song about it shows, to me,¿ that Mozzer hasn't grown much as a person.

You're going to base his personal growth on one song? Nevermind all the others before it?¿ The saddest thing anyone could ever not do in their life is to¿ grow and learn.

Indeed!¿ There is nothing productive about remainig in the same mode of¿ thought for the rest of your life, and Morrissey has shown no¿ evidence of significant change.

Millions of Morrissey fans would beg to differ. What's so damned good about change, anyway?¿ I think it displays a bit of childishness that people on this¿ forum cannot see past their unhealthy devotion to Morrissey, and¿ realize that a lot of who he is, is not necessarily admirable.

Hey, that's what being a fan (short for fanatic) means. There are millions of things in this world that we must be rational about. I choose to show "unhealthy devotion" to Morrissey as an escape. Oh, and also, because I love him blindly!¿ It's funny, while Andy and Joyce were in the studio slaving¿ away, Morrissey was probably out buying exotic leather shoes and¿ James Dean memorabilia with their share.

Slaving away? The only person slaving away back then was Johnny. And such a puritanical thought: that slaving away is so righteous. Morrissey did his share - he deserved to buy those shoes!¿ No, Morrissey was a very fortunate individual, who slowly, over¿ time began to believe his own bull @#!!! .

And still proudly does, to this very day!¿ The others just got caught in the thick.

No, they just weren't smart enough to question.¿ Morrissey is just an entertainer, who could care less how our¿ lives function.

So, why bother liking ANY entertainment? We should all boycott the new Star Wars movie (uh-oh, another Sci-Fi reference!) and burn our Morrissey records because....it just doesn't matter, in the grand scheme of things.¿ Yet, he sits back in luxury while we argue over his past,¿ present and future.

Horray! You've grasped the meaning of "discussion board!"

[Suzanne]

¿ I've said this again and again: the Smiths were about the genius¿ of the collaboration of 2 people: Johnny Marr AND Morrissey. Who¿ knows what would have happened to their musical careers if¿ they'd never met? And Johnny was hardly his "artistic¿ nursemaid." Where I come from, it's called¿ "songwriting partner."

Yeah, marr had been in a few bands before that went nowhere. No matter how talented you are, you just can't walk into a building and say "here I am. Throw money at me!" Every damn time I go into a music shop, I hear some guy wailing on the guitar, and yet, he's probably doing covers at some dive on 6th street....not to be gender specific, but you really don't see too many women trying out guitars period, and with the way shop owners treat them like helpless morons, I don't blame them....anyway, there is something about the combination that didn't work in the past groups, or he would have been signed much earlier and never heard of the Smiths, so to sum up, to say that nobody would have gotten further than the Salford shopping centre (or whatever he called it) is really a crapshoot. Obviously, Moz had written decent lyrics before in his bands that never went anywhere. The record label people probably thought "oh, just another @#!!!ty glam band" and left it at that without hearing more.

Both Moz and Marr continue to luck out because of who they are. Neither one of them have to rely on whatever musicians they can dredge up, and we're more willing to sit down and listen to it as opposed to blowing it off like most new bands.¿ Hmmm...assuming they know how to play their instruments, I'd say¿ the level of creativity required is about the same, perhaps a¿ BIT more towards the musician's side. But, unlike most groups,¿ the Smiths were appreciated for the lyrics, just as much as the¿ actual music.

They were appreciated for lots of things. Like I said, the elements of the universe came together at that point.¿ Credit for what?? Writing the songs? Writing the lyrics?¿ Choosing the artwork for the record sleeves? Producing the¿ albums? All these things you've called Morrissey on, weren't¿ even ATTEMPTED from the other guys.

Yes, but people forget that those royalties were their own seperate category.

You don't even know what an insane amount of money you can get from music publishing. Even if the royalties were split equally from the beginning, Joyce and Rourke would still be relativlely broke because you don't make crap from selling albums...unless someone buys your back catalogue. I don't know what their record royalties were, but I know that music publishing is much higher in profit returns. You can make tons of albums, but if you have one hit song like, for example, that sickening song from Titanic, you could become very rich, which is odd considering how much more work goes into touring and making albums. So, don't let the work ethic fool you. There are hundreds of bands out there with good musicians and some sense of rhythm that are no worse than most things on the radio. The thing is, they don't have that one song people want to hear....over and over and over and over...until you scream.




My planet. Now, go home. (http://home1.gte.net/suzsch/subdirectory/suzy.htm)