religionism

[Port-au-Prince]

Some Christians got my name and address from somewhere, and have been coming to my house...and mailing me some magazine called "The Good News." How did these people find me? Why is God badgering me to be a part of his/her/its group, I don't wanna!

Still. I can't be mean to nice people...but I am afraid that these Christians are going to someday end up here at the same time as the Jehova's Witnesses or the Mormons. And they all always show up when I have my meditations going. There will be a holy war in my living room. Pamphlets and Bibles will fly through the air, Joseph Smithists vs. Chosen Ones vs. Middle America Half Assed Hippy Christians.

Religion is most confuzzling, which is why I avoid it and pay more mind to my own private spirituality, operating on the simple idea that all gods are essentially the same force; after all, we all dwell in the same universe, governed by the same essential natural and physical forces...we all know pain and joy, gain and loss, etc.

They gave me these scary booklets..."Is There Really a Devil?" "The Ten Commandments" "What Is Hell?" "Is This The End?" "Who Is God?"

Did you know that demons make us do bad things? Yeah. We don't choose to do bad, but by not letting God in to our hearts, we allow Lucifer to send his evil influence over us and make us hurt people, hurt ourselves, and hurt God. My, my. We operate not on free will. And here I was blaming myself for the bad decisions I've made and the people I've hurt!!

Did you know that God plays favorites? Yeah. His faves are going to Heaven. The rest of us are gonna either live in damnation, or live in Paradise. I see fire and brimstone, I must have taken a wrong left turn back when I was deciding whether or not to dance to my heathen music and kiss the one I love. Apparently some dude called Jesus operates a towing company, or a rescue service...when the dead awake those who see him for who he is will be bused on over to Paradise, where the lions don't eat the lambs. I guess this means Pete Townsend won't be viewing kiddie porn there?

It's wrong to worship anything but God, and it's wrong to poison your body...but it's okay to put all your faith in Joseph Smith, and to eat plenty of Jello. Ummmm. And it's wrong to use birth control, even though having ten kids can kill you. You'll die delivering new soldiers for God. God has a female counterpart, but he hides her at home and doesn't let anyone see her or know her, as he doesn't want people to harm her as they've harmed him. So God goes out and does what he pleases, then comes home and wonders why she's not in the mood; would you be in the mood if he'd held you back from everything all your life? So God tells his Mormon people they can have more than one wife, and to have many children...an excuse for extra sex.

Where do I go from here? :o

[Regan why regan...for want of my love.]

> Some Christians got my name and address from somewhere, and have been
> coming to my house...and mailing me some magazine called "The Good
> News." How did these people find me? Why is God badgering me to be a
> part of his/her/its group, I don't wanna!

> Still. I can't be mean to nice people...but I am afraid that these
> Christians are going to someday end up here at the same time as the
> Jehova's Witnesses or the Mormons. And they all always show up when I have
> my meditations going. There will be a holy war in my living room.
> Pamphlets and Bibles will fly through the air, Joseph Smithists vs. Chosen
> Ones vs. Middle America Half Assed Hippy Christians.

> Religion is most confuzzling, which is why I avoid it and pay more mind to
> my own private spirituality, operating on the simple idea that all gods
> are essentially the same force; after all, we all dwell in the same
> universe, governed by the same essential natural and physical forces...we
> all know pain and joy, gain and loss, etc.

> They gave me these scary booklets..."Is There Really a Devil?"
> "The Ten Commandments" "What Is Hell?" "Is This
> The End?" "Who Is God?"

> Did you know that demons make us do bad things? Yeah. We don't choose to
> do bad, but by not letting God in to our hearts, we allow Lucifer to send
> his evil influence over us and make us hurt people, hurt ourselves, and
> hurt God. My, my. We operate not on free will. And here I was blaming
> myself for the bad decisions I've made and the people I've hurt!!

> Did you know that God plays favorites? Yeah. His faves are going to
> Heaven. The rest of us are gonna either live in damnation, or live in
> Paradise. I see fire and brimstone, I must have taken a wrong left turn
> back when I was deciding whether or not to dance to my heathen music and
> kiss the one I love. Apparently some dude called Jesus operates a towing
> company, or a rescue service...when the dead awake those who see him for
> who he is will be bused on over to Paradise, where the lions don't eat the
> lambs. I guess this means Pete Townsend won't be viewing kiddie porn
> there?

> It's wrong to worship anything but God, and it's wrong to poison your
> body...but it's okay to put all your faith in Joseph Smith, and to eat
> plenty of Jello. Ummmm. And it's wrong to use birth control, even though
> having ten kids can kill you. You'll die delivering new soldiers for God.
> God has a female counterpart, but he hides her at home and doesn't let
> anyone see her or know her, as he doesn't want people to harm her as
> they've harmed him. So God goes out and does what he pleases, then comes
> home and wonders why she's not in the mood; would you be in the mood if
> he'd held you back from everything all your life? So God tells his Mormon
> people they can have more than one wife, and to have many children...an
> excuse for extra sex.

> Where do I go from here? :o

-Religon is a cutlural factor...spare us your speach

[Chloe le Fay]

> -Religon is a cutlural factor...spare us your speach

Spare us your horrible spelling. He's right...militant Christians and their like are some of the most annoying and ignorant people imaginable.

Note: My dad's family are Mormons, but most of them aren't very devout ones. My dad's pretty cool, actually. But since I was blessed at a Mormon church, I'm in the huge Mormon database thingy, and so the creepy door-to-door Mormons seem to drive their little bicycles to my house on a regular basis.

[Regan why regan...for want of my love.]

> Spare us your horrible spelling. He's right...militant Christians and
> their like are some of the most annoying and ignorant people imaginable.

> Note: My dad's family are Mormons, but most of them aren't very devout
> ones. My dad's pretty cool, actually. But since I was blessed at a Mormon
> church, I'm in the huge Mormon database thingy, and so the creepy
> door-to-door Mormons seem to drive their little bicycles to my house on a
> regular basis.
--------------------sighhhhhhhhhhh its true

[david.]

its true indeed...fuck Christians

[Pärlhyacint]

> its true indeed...fuck Christians

Calm down. Christians only go wrong with all that "God" stuff. I enjoy the Bible, it's brilliantly written. Some scriptures make sense, but then...all of those were written long, long ago...before anyone invented the-"God"-god. It's all a good story, anyhow...let them worship their fiction, I mean...do you go around saying "F**k Trekkies"? Or "F**k Harry Potter nuts"? Yeah, I do too. I guess your statement is well made, then.

Prince:

I know some cool people who are Christian. But they're Christian in the sense that they follow the moral teachings of Christ Jesus, not in that they believe in the rest of it. I've been so many different religions and variations of religions, and guess what...I've come to the conclusion that they're all f**ked in one way or another. The best I've found for myself personally is to just strive to be a good person. Any god figure who would punish you for that would be an asshole, and Hell or whatever would probably be cooler anyhow. No need to be a kiss-ass and play favorite to some being who punishes people for doing good things, especially if the punishment is for sin created by an evil force that the supposed All-knowing created in the first place! What kind of cruel, sick being would do that, and then punish you for being influenced by it!?

Be a good little being in a human sense (you know, the simple values..."make love, be a conscious animal"), not in a "please your master God" sense, and life is good. Religion causes war, among other things...but true spirituality and wise life decisions make life easier on everyone. Not to be all hippy, or anything.

Last time I said something like this, I was branded a Communist.

[Pärlhyacint]

> Spare us your horrible spelling. He's right...militant Christians and
> their like are some of the most annoying and ignorant people imaginable.

> Note: My dad's family are Mormons, but most of them aren't very devout
> ones. My dad's pretty cool, actually. But since I was blessed at a Mormon
> church, I'm in the huge Mormon database thingy, and so the creepy
> door-to-door Mormons seem to drive their little bicycles to my house on a
> regular basis.

Creepy door-to-door Mormons? There are some Mormon boys who come around my apartment all of the time, and I think they're adorable...in their little suits and ties...with their little bike helmets and backpacks...awww...

And whoa, they seem to be moving up in the world. Some sets of Mormon fellas around here ride around now...IN CARS!!!

Cute little Mormons...

[Mindy]

well said. i agree with every word you've said.

[Mindy]

i am an ex-mormon and believe you me, it is a creepy religion. i'm technically still a member because you can't formally leave the church without parental consent before the age of 18, and i've been struggling to stifle my hatred enough to write a letter that won't have them chasing me down with tar and feathers. however, i have not been in attendance for nigh upon six years. anyway, the mormon church does promote good family values (if somewhat narrowminded ones) and it does teach tolerance (in most cases) and it does produce some very good people (as well as some assholes), but it is also extremely hypocritical, farfetched (well most religions are), and outlandish. you couldn't pay me to go back, especially since i am convinced that it fucked me up pretty badly.

but yeah, mormon missionaries do tend to be pretty hot.

[Notastitchtowear]

> Some Christians got my name and address from somewhere, and have been
> coming to my house...and mailing me some magazine called "The Good
> News." How did these people find me? Why is God badgering me to be a
> part of his/her/its group, I don't wanna!

> Still. I can't be mean to nice people...but I am afraid that these
> Christians are going to someday end up here at the same time as the
> Jehova's Witnesses or the Mormons. And they all always show up when I have
> my meditations going. There will be a holy war in my living room.
> Pamphlets and Bibles will fly through the air, Joseph Smithists vs. Chosen
> Ones vs. Middle America Half Assed Hippy Christians.

> Religion is most confuzzling, which is why I avoid it and pay more mind to
> my own private spirituality, operating on the simple idea that all gods
> are essentially the same force; after all, we all dwell in the same
> universe, governed by the same essential natural and physical forces...we
> all know pain and joy, gain and loss, etc.

> They gave me these scary booklets..."Is There Really a Devil?"
> "The Ten Commandments" "What Is Hell?" "Is This
> The End?" "Who Is God?"

> Did you know that demons make us do bad things? Yeah. We don't choose to
> do bad, but by not letting God in to our hearts, we allow Lucifer to send
> his evil influence over us and make us hurt people, hurt ourselves, and
> hurt God. My, my. We operate not on free will. And here I was blaming
> myself for the bad decisions I've made and the people I've hurt!!

> Did you know that God plays favorites? Yeah. His faves are going to
> Heaven. The rest of us are gonna either live in damnation, or live in
> Paradise. I see fire and brimstone, I must have taken a wrong left turn
> back when I was deciding whether or not to dance to my heathen music and
> kiss the one I love. Apparently some dude called Jesus operates a towing
> company, or a rescue service...when the dead awake those who see him for
> who he is will be bused on over to Paradise, where the lions don't eat the
> lambs. I guess this means Pete Townsend won't be viewing kiddie porn
> there?

> It's wrong to worship anything but God, and it's wrong to poison your
> body...but it's okay to put all your faith in Joseph Smith, and to eat
> plenty of Jello. Ummmm. And it's wrong to use birth control, even though
> having ten kids can kill you. You'll die delivering new soldiers for God.

'Each sperm is precious, each sperm is great, if a sperm is wasted God gets quite irrate'- Life of Brian

> God has a female counterpart, but he hides her at home and doesn't let
> anyone see her or know her, as he doesn't want people to harm her as
> they've harmed him. So God goes out and does what he pleases, then comes
> home and wonders why she's not in the mood; would you be in the mood if
> he'd held you back from everything all your life? So God tells his Mormon
> people they can have more than one wife, and to have many children...an
> excuse for extra sex.

> Where do I go from here? :o

[LoafingOaf - The Official Online Stud]

[LoafingOaf - Islam's Worst Nightmare]

> Calm down. Christians only go wrong with all that "God" stuff. I
> enjoy the Bible, it's brilliantly written.

I thought the Bible was that book that everyone likes to have around the house but no one actually opens it up to read. I actually thought about having a looksie at the Bible last week, but I took one look at it, came to my senses, and decided to read "Cuba Libra" by Elmore Leonard instead.

> I've been so many different religions and
> variations of religions, and guess what...I've come to the conclusion that
> they're all f**ked in one way or another.

Yeah, they are. Especially the Islamic savage barbarians from hell bullshit plaguing the earth these days. Fuck the Allah freakazoids!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Be a good little being in a human sense (you know, the simple
> values..."make love, be a conscious animal"), not in a
> "please your master God" sense, and life is good.

Ah, come on, we're in a hell on earth. There's nothing good about it.

But yeah, the Golden Rule seems about all you need to me. I just really wish there *was* a God or something, because everyone who is a complete fucker in life seems to have more fun than I'm having. Makes you feel like a dupe sometimes....

>Religion
> causes war, among other things...but true spirituality and wise life
> decisions make life easier on everyone. Not to be all hippy, or anything.

Agreed on religion. I never know what people are talking about when they mention "spirituality" though.

[Pärlhyacint]

Islam is fundamentally a better religion, IMO, than Christianity. Have you ever read the Qur'an? Having studied world religions in college, I was exposed to it heavily...there's absolutely no need to say anything bad about Muslims. It's those extremists who'll blow you to bits. There's a large settlement of Islamic beings in my neighborhood, they're some of my favorite neighbors. Not a shifty eye amongst them.

Be cordial, be kind...don't spread the disease of hate.

[Pärlhyacint]

> i am an ex-mormon and believe you me, it is a creepy religion. i'm
> technically still a member because you can't formally leave the church
> without parental consent before the age of 18, and i've been struggling to
> stifle my hatred enough to write a letter that won't have them chasing me
> down with tar and feathers. however, i have not been in attendance for
> nigh upon six years. anyway, the mormon church does promote good family
> values (if somewhat narrowminded ones) and it does teach tolerance (in
> most cases) and it does produce some very good people (as well as some
> assholes), but it is also extremely hypocritical, farfetched (well most
> religions are), and outlandish. you couldn't pay me to go back, especially
> since i am convinced that it fucked me up pretty badly.

> but yeah, mormon missionaries do tend to be pretty hot.

I know that the religion is creepy; I had a friend who took me to a service and had these people in a class room trying to get me to consent to conversion. I just toyed with them, as I tend to in those cases. The guy who headed the class was someone who looked like Lucas Buck (i.e. Satan) from that series American Gothic. He was strange, and kept telling me I was on the right path to answering his questions even when I was answering completely wrong on purpose. Hah, I was the center of attention at the Mormon service we attended; they thought I was strange. My horrible fashion back then probably didn't help; I walked in wearing a bright red button down shirt with no bra, a black skirt, tall black platforms with a leopard print inset, purple hair, plenty of makeup. Everyone else was wearing blues and greys, mixed with a little white and black here and there...women dressed very conservatively. But I had Mormon boys all over me after the service, and back then I cared about that kind of thing; so ^_^

Then they all ran away eventually, as I made it painfully clear that I was not interested in being Mormon.

These Mormons that come by now are hardly into their religion like that...a couple of them are total stoners. I rather enjoy their company, just because they look so adorable in those little suits and so forth.

[Candy Darling]

Why do people use the word gay as an insult? What's with all the homophobia on display on this message board? I find the whole thing positively sick-making. Homophobia is dull and stupid and just doesn't make sense. I find it hard to believe that any Morrissey fan could be so narrow minded and I cannot understand how a person who hates homosexuals could be a fan of Morrissey. He has not come out as gay but he does not define himself as straight either...

Why do some of the people here have such an issue with other people's sex lives? Could one of these homophobic crashing bores please tell me what their problem is? I don't know why people have such a problem with it... it's just sex, it's part of life, please get over it.

[Mindy]

i want to make it clear first of all that i am not a homophobe and my life has been touched by a gay relative, several gay friends, and others who don't fit exclusively in the heterosexual category. however, "gay" is a colloquialism that just doesn't seem to be going away. i admit that it is sad, but i would venture to say that it has lost some of it's homosexual connotations -- at least in everyday speech. i occasionally use the word. it's a habit i picked up during late childhood, before i even really realized what it meant. i feel that it's the same way for a lot of people. when they say that something is gay, they do not mean to call that something homosexual. throughout history, "gay" has picked up many meanings. i mean, in the last hundred years or so, the meaning changed from "happy, jubilant, carefree" to a slang word for homosexuals. a lot of homosexuals don't even wish to be called gay anymore anyway. that being said, i try not to use the word when i can help it since i do realize that some people find it offensive -- or even worse, hurtful.

furthermore i think it's dumb to define people by their sexual orientation anyway -- and morrissey agrees. candy darling, you are definitely right on that issue. people are people and who they have sex with is immaterial (so long as their chosen partner is of the age of consent and gives it!). i am really sick of people being put into categories: gay, straight, black, white. who gives a fuck? it doesn't define who you are as a person in the slightest.

[Pärlhyacint]

> Why do some of the people here have such an issue with other people's sex
> lives? Could one of these homophobic crashing bores please tell me what
> their problem is? I don't know why people have such a problem with it...
> it's just sex, it's part of life, please get over it.

Bonobos practice homosexuality; the lesser females will have sex with the alpha female by rubbing genitalia fiercely in an attempt to impress her enough to be made one of her in-group. Why do people not bombard bonobo site message boards with hate messages about homosexuality?

Anyway. It is sickening. People need to get over their fear of it all. Love is love and sex is sex, it doesn't matter which gender combination it exists between. Both my best female friend and my best male friend are homosexual, and they're two of the best people I've ever known. They are each in beautiful relationships and do everything good people should do. So why should it matter that they are not attracted to members of the opposite sex? Who gives a f**k!!!!! There are worse problems in this world.

So bravo to Candy, for speaking out.

[LoafingOaf - Islam's Worst Nightmare]

> Why do people use the word gay as an insult? What's with all the
> homophobia on display on this message board? I find the whole thing
> positively sick-making. Homophobia is dull and stupid and just doesn't
> make sense. I find it hard to believe that any Morrissey fan could be so
> narrow minded and I cannot understand how a person who hates homosexuals
> could be a fan of Morrissey. He has not come out as gay but he does not
> define himself as straight either...

Homophobia?!? Me? hahaha. Dude, words have more than one meaning.
I'm sorry if you can't grasp that.

[LoafingOaf - Islam's Worst Nightmare]

> i want to make it clear first of all that i am not a homophobe and my life
> has been touched by a gay relative, several gay friends, and others who
> don't fit exclusively in the heterosexual category. however,
> "gay" is a colloquialism that just doesn't seem to be going
> away. i admit that it is sad, but i would venture to say that it has lost
> some of it's homosexual connotations -- at least in everyday speech. i
> occasionally use the word. it's a habit i picked up during late childhood,
> before i even really realized what it meant. i feel that it's the same way
> for a lot of people. when they say that something is gay, they do not mean
> to call that something homosexual. throughout history, "gay" has
> picked up many meanings. i mean, in the last hundred years or so, the
> meaning changed from "happy, jubilant, carefree" to a slang word
> for homosexuals.

Ah, thanks Mindy. I dunno, I use the word "gay" a lot. *shrug*

[Mindy]

[CrushingBore]

> I thought the Bible was that book that everyone likes to have around the
> house but no one actually opens it up to read. I actually thought about
> having a looksie at the Bible last week, but I took one look at it, came
> to my senses, and decided to read "Cuba Libra" by Elmore Leonard
> instead.

I agree with everything you've said here, with one MAJOR bloody exception, which I'll come to in a moment. Not long ago I decided that perhaps - just perhaps I was wrong about Christianity, and that The Bible might bear a second look if they just ditched the Old Testament. I opened it at a random Old Testament page, and was told that Moses taught any male who had his genitals damaged or disabled could never make it into the kingdom of God. Furthermore, if you're a member of a conquering army, you have the right to take any women you find "pleasing" from the conquered peoples and keep her as your concubine for as long as you see fit. This probably goes a long way towards explaining the modern day actions of the Israelis in Occupied Palestine.
But the New Testament is little better. The Sermon on the Mount is probably one of the most offensive rants ever delivered (that includes some of the things Henry Rollins has said in his time, and that IS saying something). I'd sooner follow the ideology of Elmore Leonard anyday.

> Yeah, they are. Especially the Islamic savage barbarians from hell
> bullshit plaguing the earth these days. Fuck the Allah
> freakazoids!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, believe it or not, THIS is the bit I take offense at. I think an earlier post of yours made a reference to Americans being the most tolerant people on earth, which is probably close to being true. These statements don't provide much evidence of that. Thing is, you're not criticising Islam here, you're criticising Muslims, who are in my experience mostly peaceful, cultured people - and that's pretty damn close to racism. Radical Islam is as offensive as radical Christianity, Judaism, or Buddhism (now there's a concept!) but radical Islamists represent the minority of an otherwise peaceful and intelligent religion.

[Notastitchtowear]

> Homophobia?!? Me? hahaha. Dude, words have more than one meaning.
> I'm sorry if you can't grasp that.

You might realize this, but others might not. Anyway, using 'Gay' as an insult is so....1982 and it's well.....GAY!

[Candy Darling]

Ok Loafing O, no problem...
but there are certain other people who post here who seem to have an obsession about making derogatory, immature comments about homosexuals (and those people put me off visiting this otherwise great site)...

[LoafingOaf - Islam's Worst Nightmare]

> Islam is fundamentally a better religion, IMO, than Christianity. Have you
> ever read the Qur'an? Having studied world religions in college, I was
> exposed to it heavily...there's absolutely no need to say anything bad
> about Muslims. It's those extremists who'll blow you to bits. There's a
> large settlement of Islamic beings in my neighborhood, they're some of my
> favorite neighbors. Not a shifty eye amongst them.

Wait, didn't you, in your message immediately preceding this one, say that all religions are "fucked up"? And you specifially stated that Chrisitans are "fucked up." And now you're saying "there's absolutely no need to say anything bad about Muslims"? Hmm.

> Be cordial, be kind...don't spread the disease of hate.

If we're talking about spreading the disease of hate, I think one has to address the fact that the Koran, Islamic law, all Muslim governments (as well as their state-run media), many if not most Muslim mosques, and many if not most Muslim schools take people from the day they're born and brainwash them with pure hatred. Hatred for women, hatred for gays, hatred for "infidels." And teach them that "peace" equals full submission of all people to Allah, and that the end of history will be when the entire world is Muslim.

I have no problem with an individual Muslim who isn't into Hitlerian racism, gender apartheid, opression of homosexuals, outlawing of "decadent" culture and pleasures, doesn't believe that democracy, science, and freedom are abohorant, or isn't sympathetic to terror-loving freaks who blow up pizza parlors full of teenagers. I have no problem with any Muslim who isn't what I call one of the Muslim freakazoids. But the Muslim freakazoids - or perhaps better put, the Muslim fascists - are great in number and not being met with much condemnation from the peace-loving, moderate Muslims who you claim are the majority.

In recent decades Islamic culture may have grown dangerously sick. I don't see why this is some horrible thing to speculate about. We've seen cultures become sick before. Nazi German culture in the 1930s was rather ill, no? So was Japanese culture in the same time period.

I happened to be one who fully supported the rescue of Muslims from Milosevic's genocide. I also happened to be one who fully supported the toppling of the Taliban, so that maybe a new government could be built in Afghanistan where ALL types of Muslims can be free to practice the Islam THEY want to, and where people of other faiths or no faith can practice their personal beliefs as well.

It could be that I'm fully aware of the efforts of these millions upon millions of moderate, peace-loving Muslims, who seek democracy, separation of church and state, the end of gender aprtheid, the right of homosexuals to live freely, and the right of "infidels" to put their children on a bus and not have them blown up. I know that such Muslims exist and in large numbers. What I don't know is what percentage of Islam they make up and how much they really care about their religion being currently dominated by fascists, and I don't think this is my fault. Opinion polls in some Muslim majority countries are rather frightening. For example, I read that 76% of Kuwaitis admire Usama bin Laden. But when I meet somebody I make it a point to meet them with a clean slate and judge them as an individual. Every person I meet, I tell myself, don't make any assumptions about this person. However, I do reserve the right to think critically about belief systems. I have no obligation to give automatic respect to a belief system. And most certainly not to a religion, as religions are a bunch of poppycock made up off the top of people's heads. No, no religion will ever get respect from me. Tolerance of those who practice them, yes, but not because they practice that religion. That respect would be because who of who they are as inviduals as a whole, separate and apart from what religion they happen to dig. And tolerance does not mean I have to like Islam any more than I'd have to like Nazism or communism. I'm quite sure the world would be better off with no religion, most especially with no Islam, but that's not for me to dictate, only to hope for.

The first time I remember thinking about Islam was when I heard that some kooks in Iran issued a death sentence on Salman Rushdie for writing a book. Since then I've seen ever-escalating atrocities, intolerance, and fascism rising in Islamic culture. The kind of thing people say they're afraid of in America if a Jerry Falwell ever because President. Well, Jerry Falwell isn't going to be president, but Islamic versions of him, and even far worse, have taken over the Islamic world.

Sadly, what I've NOT seen much of are Muslim-led demonstrations and marches condemning the murders of thousands and thousands of innocent people by extremist Muslims world-wide in the past couple decades. I know they have the ability to speak out, as they've spoken quite a bit about their concerns of real or (more often) imagined opressions of Muslims in the United States and other western countries since 9/11. They've even convinced YOU that we're supposedly torturing the terrorist soldiers we captured and placed in Guatanamo Bay before they could unleash unprecedented mass-murders, while at the same time we have to pull their teeth to get unambiguous condemnations of people who purposely target, say, a bus full of jewish kids. Is it too much to ask that they condemn terror-loving barbarian savages with equal vigor as they attack the alleged conditions at Guantanomo Bay? Or, say, the supposed unfairness of portraying a terrorist as a Muslim in a Hollywood film (as if that's so far-fetched!)? I never have trouble finding outraged Muslims in the media when a movie opens that happens to have a Muslim terrorist character. But when three doctors were murdered in Yemen recently, I didn't see much concern over their religion being hijacked by extremists.

All I've seen are individual Muslims here and there, no organized effort to make sure mainstream Islam isn't confused with fascist Islam. And now we have a situation where extremist Muslims are threatening to murder MILLIONS of innocent people worldwide, from India to Australia to the USA to Africa to Indonesia. And still, the moderate Muslim world is strangely silent. Where was the Muslim protest of the Nigerian riot? I saw that news report and it boggled my mind that in 2002 people could actually murder innocent people over a beauty pageant! I read articles from Muslims who condemned the journalist who supposedly "provoked" this riot, when all she really did was excersize her free speech (repsecting free speech is not something the Koran teaches...). This is but one example, and at some point one has to have the guts to say: Maybe it's time Muslims - in between telling America how America must examine itself - should start examining the state of their culture and their belief system.

Now, I happen to think Christianity is pretty nutso too and has caused lots of horrors in this world. No one ever calls me or anyone else "intolerant" or "hateful" for saying this on this board. You see that in this thread. People are open to examining Christianity, but somehow Islam is something no one's allowed to say a bad word about. Well, you claim that in 2003 Islam is a "fundemantlly a better religion" than Christianity. Yet IMO, if there were weekly atrocities committed by a significant number of Christians worldwide over recent years and to the present, with the support of Christian governments, many Christian religious leaders, numerous Christian organizations (and even charities!), and bred by many Christian schools, that this would be met by marches, demonstrations, and protests to make clear that these wackjobs in no way represent mainstream Christianity. But then again, I guess I can't prove it, because thousands and thousands of innocent people are not currently being murdered, and millions more not currently being targeted for death, by a worldwide network of Christian terrorist cells.

Christianity has had dark periods just like Islam. The differnce, IMO, is that Christianity has managed to somewhat reform itself to fit in with the modern world, even though it's still and forever a dark aged belief system better left behind. Western civilization had a renassaince and so forth. Furthemore, it's a fortunate thing that the majority of people claiming to be Christian in western first world democracies tend to say they're Chrsitian just to fit in, and don't actually believe the rubbish at their core. Islam, OTOH, has yet to adapt to the modern world, and thus, with globalization, we're witnessing a clash between Islamic dark aged culture and modern civilization. I have full confidence that civilization will prevail over barbarian religious fanatics, but my concern is that too many people will die before Islam accepts its need to reform and reinvent itself. And this is only made worse by the fact that moderate Muslims are oddly far too silent, and many of them are possibly a tad sympathetic.

Anyway, I will never surrendor my right to free thought and free speech, and when someone tells me that Islam is not fair game for examination and criticism, that feels like thought-policing political correctness to me. Islam is not a race. I didn't realize that if you have a belief or philosphy that happens to also be a religion that it deserves automatic respect and deference. But then I didn't take religon courses in college, as I feel the entire religion departments of all universities are mostly a waste of time. The fact that millions and millions of people happen to be Muslim also doesn't impress me. But obviously when I speak of savage, terror-loving barbarians from Hell plaguing the earth at this time, I'm speaking of people who have joined the ranks of, or are sympathetic to, fascist organizations such as al Quaeda, and they have indeed plagued the earth for several decades now. That you thought I was speaking of every individual Muslim only further illuminates the crisis in that culture, and the need for sane, non-brainwashed Muslims to stand up and be counted.

[LoafingOaf - Islam's Worst Nightmare]

> It could be that I'm fully aware of the efforts of these millions upon
> millions of moderate, peace-loving Muslims, who seek democracy, separation
> of church and state, the end of gender aprtheid, the right of homosexuals
> to live freely, and the right of "infidels" to put their
> children on a bus and not have them blown up.

Should read: It could be that I'm NOT fully aware of the efforts of these millions upon millions of moderate, peace-loving Muslims.....

>The kind of thing people say they're
> afraid of in America if a Jerry Falwell ever because President. Well,
> Jerry Falwell isn't going to be president,

Should read: The kind of thing people say they're afraid of in America if a Jerry Falwell ever BECAME President....

[LoafingOaf - Islam's Worst Nightmare]

> I agree with everything you've said here, with one MAJOR bloody exception,
> which I'll come to in a moment. Not long ago I decided that perhaps - just
> perhaps I was wrong about Christianity, and that The Bible might bear a
> second look if they just ditched the Old Testament. I opened it at a
> random Old Testament page, and was told that Moses taught any male who had
> his genitals damaged or disabled could never make it into the kingdom of
> God. Furthermore, if you're a member of a conquering army, you have the
> right to take any women you find "pleasing" from the conquered
> peoples and keep her as your concubine for as long as you see fit. This
> probably goes a long way towards explaining the modern day actions of the
> Israelis in Occupied Palestine.

> Yes, believe it or not, THIS is the bit I take offense at. I think an
> earlier post of yours made a reference to Americans being the most
> tolerant people on earth, which is probably close to being true. These
> statements don't provide much evidence of that. Thing is, you're not
> criticising Islam here, you're criticising Muslims, who are in my
> experience mostly peaceful, cultured people - and that's pretty damn close
> to racism.

Islam is not a race. And to be clearer, I'm speaking of Islamic fascists and terrorists and their sympathetizers, not all Muslims.

>Radical Islam is as offensive as radical Christianity, Judaism,
> or Buddhism (now there's a concept!) but radical Islamists represent the
> minority of an otherwise peaceful and intelligent religion.

How do you know they're the minority? And if they're the minority, they're a pretty damn substantial minority, no? And what is peaceful and intelligent about Islam?

I noticed you had no hestitation of using the Jewish religion to explain Israel's actions in what you call "Occupied Palestine."

So what explains Muslim actions on Jewish people? Their "peaceful and intelligent" religion?

[CrushingBore]

> Islam is not a race. And to be clearer, I'm speaking of Islamic fascists
> and terrorists and their sympathetizers, not all Muslims.

> How do you know they're the minority? And if they're the minority, they're
> a pretty damn substantial minority, no? And what is peaceful and
> intelligent about Islam?

I know they're in the minority because of the vast numbers of muslims on this planet, and if anything approaching a majority of them supported radical ideologies this entire planet would be in flames several times over. As a little byline, a CNN poll asking which nation was the greatest threat on earth to world peace delivered a 75% verdict in favour of The United States.

Devout muslims are what is peaceful and intelligent about Islam.

> I noticed you had no hestitation of using the Jewish religion to explain
> Israel's actions in what you call "Occupied Palestine."

Because many Jews use their own religious texts to justify the most offensive, ongoing and illegal occupation of lands which are not their own in modern times, and in my experience close to 100% of diaspora Jews are equally supportive (although substantially more gutless - what exactly does it mean to support so ardently a Jewish state and refuse to live there?). It's a rhetorical flourish, but Israel (you may have gathered) makes me utterly livid.

> So what explains Muslim actions on Jewish people? Their "peaceful and
> intelligent" religion?

Well, Palestinian and Lebanese actions against Jewish people can be explained by the fact that these people have been comprehensively shat all over by the actions of the Jewish state. Not too great a leap of logic.

[CrushingBore]

Now, THAT is a pretty sound analysis!
I've taken exception to some of your briefer and more inflammatory statements, which have struck me as more sweeping generalisations, but I agree with 90% of what you've said here.

The whole point of terrorism (Islamic terrorism in particular) is to try and polarise the world, to attempt to engender an "us versus them" attitude in both muslims and non-muslims and I think it's a crucial part of any "war on terrorism" NOT to subscribe to that viewpoint. I think this is the mistake the US has been provoked into making by the tragedy of September 11.

In terms of protest against terrorism in the muslim world, you may not be aware that after the Bali bombings (in which around 90 Australians were killed) there was a mass rally of muslim students outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta expressing sympathy for the victims. Pictures of this event on the television news had me almost in tears, I thought it was one of the most profound gestures of humanity I'd ever witnessed. If there are rotten-hearted muslims out there, it is more than their religion which has made them that way, because similar people who had grown up under the same religion are demonstrably capable of equal good-heartedness. That's why it takes an analysis of the depth you've offered here to come close to summarising the problems we face.

Good people will find the goodness in any religion, and evil people gravitate to the negative aspects. As the song says; "Muhammed is Jesus is Buddha is love" - the true basis of all religion, I would say, is peace, respect and harmony. Those who seek to pervert that message, I hope will find themselves facing the harshest punishments awaiting them in whatever their conception is of an afterlife.

You should not aspire to being Islam's nightmare so much as it's guiding light. That's what the world needs now.