Q Magazine - the REAL "Best of..."

[Uncleskinny]

Simon Goddard picks his Smiths top 10

Link leads to Spotify playlist...http://news.qthemusic.com/2012/03/the_real_best_of.html

List is as follows:


Death Of A Disco Dancer
Shakespeare's Sister
Half A Person
Jeane
Rubber Ring
You've Got Everything Now
Well I Wonder
The Queen Is Dead
Stretch Out And Wait
Last Night I Dreamt That Somebody Loved Me



P.

[Ryan.]

Maybe in the next world.

[Amy]

Death of a Disco Dancer at No.1? Death of a Disco Dancer? Is this a joke?

[Peterb]

I believe that Death of a Disco Dancer is also one of Morrisseys favourites.

[billy scissors]

Death of a Disco Dancer at No.1? Death of a Disco Dancer? Is this a joke?

Yes,Amy,Death of a Disco Fuckin Dancer.We know you don't like it but we don't care.Just let it go,man,let it go.Jesus,Mary and Joseph! :rolleyes:

[Anonymous]

Death of a Disco Dancer at No.1? Death of a Disco Dancer? Is this a joke?

I think its number 1 in the order of the playlist. I don't think the 10 are ranked in any specific order of preference.... but no How Soon Is Now though. WTF??

Also there are other Q playlists on Spotify feed including Radiohead, Bowie, Pulp and Blur. Some strange choices but each to there own.

[Gentler Words]

I do love me some Death Of A Disco Dancer, but that and Shakespeare's Sister being #1 and #2 do make this feel like a joke list. I imagine those two songs wouldn't make the top 10 of 90% of Smiths fans lists. I actually think Last Night I Dreamt That Somebody Loved Me would be the only one off that list in my favorite 10. It's always interesting to see what other fans like, though.

[Uncleskinny]

I do love me some Death Of A Disco Dancer, but that and Shakespeare's Sister being #1 and #2 do make this feel like a joke list. I imagine those two songs wouldn't make the top 10 of 90% of Smiths fans lists. I actually think Last Night I Dreamt That Somebody Loved Me would be the only one off that list in my favorite 10. It's always interesting to see what other fans like, though.

That's a tad harsh, no? It's only someone's personal list, I'm sure you could draw one up of your own.

P.

[Worm]

Death of a Disco Dancer at No.1? Death of a Disco Dancer? Is this a joke?

The list is pretty suspect, but I actually think "Death Of A Disco Dancer" is a track that has gotten massively better with age. Hard to place above so many other classics, true, but the song is brilliant. One of Johnny's career highlights, for sure.

[Anonymous]

All of the above 3 postings are , to a large degree correct! Yes, Amy is right because there is no Johnny Marr on guitar and this lends to a very different style of song than The Smiths had for 5 years or so. Yet, that's what Johnny wanted, something very new and isn't that what Strangeways was at the time? Styles had changed from 82-87 and Morrissey loved it for this reason. Not only the song, "Death of a Disco Dancer, itself, but the entire lp itself, is infact, a Morrissey favorite to this very day.
Yes, your right too Billy! Ease up on Amy and be kind to her. The girl writes because she loves Morrissey and thats good enough round here!

[Giselle]

The list is pretty suspect, but I actually think "Death Of A Disco Dancer" is a track that has gotten massively better with age. Hard to place above so many other classics, true, but the song is brilliant. One of Johnny's career highlights, for sure.
I don't know if it deserves number one, but it is a beautiful song, and that outro is pretty great!

[Amy]

Yes,Amy,Death of a Disco Fuckin Dancer.We know you don't like it but we don't care.Just let it go,man,let it go.Jesus,Mary and Joseph! :rolleyes:

:straightface: bit uncalled for, wasn't it?

[Worm]

I don't know if it deserves number one, but it is a beautiful song, and that outro is pretty great!

I agree. It shouldn't be #1.

In Simon's defense, people who have listened to The Smiths obsessively for a long time probably have skewed opinions. Morrissey's favorite track for a few years was "I Keep Mine Hidden", for starters. My top ten would probably be pretty silly, too; as I've mentioned before, one of my very favorite Smiths tracks of the last several years, easily in the Top Ten, is the "Rank" version of "The Draize Train". No way that should crack anyone's Top Ten. :)

[Qvist]

Yep. It fluctuates. For instance, Rusholme Ruffians took a good 20 years to advance from largely ignored to one of my favorite tracks. That being said, any top 10 of mine would contain largely the same songs as before - this charming man, there is a light, hand in glove, i know it's over, how soon is now, please please please etc.

[Anonymous]

:straightface: bit uncalled for, wasn't it?

"Would leap in front of a flying bullet for you", Amy.
Love & Hugs from a fellow obsessive!

[Anonymous]

Yes,Amy,Death of a Disco Fuckin Dancer.We know you don't like it but we don't care.Just let it go,man,let it go.Jesus,Mary and Joseph! :rolleyes:

Come on Billy, "It takes GUTS to be gentile and kind!" I ought to know!

[billy scissors]

:straightface: bit uncalled for, wasn't it?

Aye.Great song though.Best on Strangeways.

[billy scissors]

All of the above 3 postings are , to a large degree correct! Yes, Amy is right because there is no Johnny Marr on guitar and this lends to a very different style of song than The Smiths had for 5 years or so. Yet, that's what Johnny wanted, something very new and isn't that what Strangeways was at the time? Styles had changed from 82-87 and Morrissey loved it for this reason. Not only the song, "Death of a Disco Dancer, itself, but the entire lp itself, is infact, a Morrissey favorite to this very day.
Yes, your right too Billy! Ease up on Amy and be kind to her. The girl writes because she loves Morrissey and thats good enough round here!

No she doesn't,she HATES him.

[Worm]

Yep. It fluctuates. For instance, Rusholme Ruffians took a good 20 years to advance from largely ignored to one of my favorite tracks. That being said, any top 10 of mine would contain largely the same songs as before - this charming man, there is a light, hand in glove, i know it's over, how soon is now, please please please etc.

Exactly. What would your two lists be?

Based on an attempt at objectivity:

1. There Is A Light That Never Goes Out
2. Cemetry Gates
3. This Charming Man
4. I Know It's Over
5. How Soon Is Now?
6. Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before
7. Still Ill
8. Shoplifters Of The World Unite
9. Ask
10. Please, Please, Please Let Me Get What I Want

But my skewed list, from the last several years, would be more like this:

1. The Headmaster Ritual
2. Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others
3. A Rush And A Push And The Land Is Ours
4. How Soon Is Now? (Live, Kilburn, 1986)
5. Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now
6. Paint A Vulgar Picture
7. The Draize Train (Live)
8. I Want The One I Can't Have
9. Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before
10. Please, Please, Please Let Me Get What I Want (Live, Los Angeles, 1986)

[DAVIE]

But my skewed list, from the last several years, would be more like this:

1. The Headmaster Ritual
2. Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others
3. A Rush And A Push And The Land Is Ours
4. How Soon Is Now? (Live, Kilburn, 1986)
5. Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now
6. Paint A Vulgar Picture
7. The Draize Train (Live)
8. I Want The One I Can't Have
9. Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before
10. Please, Please, Please Let Me Get What I Want (Live, Los Angeles, 1986)

Worm...I like your choice :cool:

[Luke Action McClure]

Reading the entries for these songs in Goddard's Mozipedia suggests that the list is indeed in order, from best to tenth best. I don't have Spotify. Can someone who does please post or PM me the top ten Nirvana list?

[Amy]

No she doesn't,she HATES him.

Don't be silly, of course I love him. I'm also frequently frustrated by him, but does one cancel out the other?

[Anonymous]

No she doesn't,she HATES him.

O.K. Billy, your right to your opinion. But, Amy does love Morrissey, maybe in a different way? I dunno. Please remember, love and hate are related, yet opposites on the same coin? Or something like that!

[Anonymous]

Dear crystal geezer:
Well girl, we are all waiting for you to weigh in on this one! Please, your top picks would be appreciated!

[Qvist]

Exactly. What would your two lists be?

Based on an attempt at objectivity:

1. There Is A Light That Never Goes Out
2. Cemetry Gates
3. This Charming Man
4. I Know It's Over
5. How Soon Is Now?
6. Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before
7. Still Ill
8. Shoplifters Of The World Unite
9. Ask
10. Please, Please, Please Let Me Get What I Want

But my skewed list, from the last several years, would be more like this:

1. The Headmaster Ritual
2. Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others
3. A Rush And A Push And The Land Is Ours
4. How Soon Is Now? (Live, Kilburn, 1986)
5. Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now
6. Paint A Vulgar Picture
7. The Draize Train (Live)
8. I Want The One I Can't Have
9. Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before
10. Please, Please, Please Let Me Get What I Want (Live, Los Angeles, 1986)

Hm. Writing from ipad,so please excuse lacking capitalisation and so forth.

"objective" list ( or let's say stab at permanence)

1. This charming man
2. There is a light that never goes out
3. The boy with the thorn in his side
4. How soon is now?
5. Hand in glove
6. I know it's over
7. Please please please
8. Ask
9. Cemetry gates
10. William

Subjective list ( or, frequently played during last couple of years) no order

Miserable lie (peel version)
The hand that rocks the cradle (peel version)
These things take time (tsots verion)
Handsome devil
Rusholme ruffians
What's the world
London
Suffer little children
Back to the old house
This night has opened my eyes
Pretty girls make graves (troy tate version)

[Worm]

Please remember, love and hate are related, yet opposites on the same coin? Or something like that!

Behind hatred, murderous desire for love...something all mixed-up like that? :)

[Worm]

Subjective list ( or, frequently played during last couple of years) no order

Miserable lie (peel version)
The hand that rocks the cradle (peel version)
These things take time (tsots verion)
Handsome devil
Rusholme ruffians
What's the world
London
Suffer little children
Back to the old house
This night has opened my eyes
Pretty girls make graves (troy tate version)

A good list! I like "What's The World" a lot also, although once I got my hands on the James original I liked that even more. I'll have to go back and play the others. I notice your list is heavily slanted toward the early stuff. Of the 10, only 3 of your favorite tracks were recorded after 1984, and only one after 1985! Any particular reason?

[Qvist]

A good list! I like "What's The World" a lot also, although once I got my hands on the James original I liked that even more. I'll have to go back and play the others. I notice your list is heavily slanted toward the early stuff. Of the 10, only 3 of your favorite tracks were recorded after 1984, and only one after 1985! Any particular reason?

Yes, because that's when they made their best music. ;) and even more so, their most durable music. Lyrically stunning, musically complex and full to the brim of vitality, the edges are rougher but the substance greater. As far as i'm concerned, handsome devil and every day is like sunday are the polar points in morrissey's music, and i so vastly prefer the former. :)

Forgot one: that soundcheck version of asleep, with bass as well as piano.

[Worm]

Yes, because that's when they made their best music. ;) and even more so, their most durable music. Lyrically stunning, musically complex and full to the brim of vitality, the edges are rougher but the substance greater. As far as i'm concerned, handsome devil and every day is like sunday are the polar points in morrissey's music, and i so vastly prefer the former. :)

I disagree, but I certainly understand your point of view. I think there are plenty who agree with you. But may I ask you-- when you say "Everyday Is Like Sunday" is a polar opposite of "Handsome Devil", well when-- I mean, what-- exactly do you mean? Surely not quality. If vitality is the measure, are you saying "Everyday" is like a Sunday nap?

It's just such a striking opposition to make. I don't know if I've ever heard it before.


Forgot one: that soundcheck version of asleep, with bass as well as piano.

I love a soundcheck, instrumental-only version of "There Is A Light", but it didn't quite crack my "secondary" Top Ten.

[Anonymous]

Attn: Amy.

THIS IS SIMON GODDARD'S OWN PERSONAL FUCKING OPINION.

NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU THINK.

[Amy]

Attn: Amy.

THIS IS SIMON GODDARD'S OWN PERSONAL FUCKING OPINION.

NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU THINK.

Well, that got me told.

[Gentler Words]

That's a tad harsh, no? It's only someone's personal list, I'm sure you could draw one up of your own.

P.

The interwebs come off much harsher than my intentions.

I was merely trying to say that it's a unique list, very much unlike most Smiths fans'. I don't even think those are bad songs, and I even said that I love Death Of A Disco Dancer. I do think, though, (and previous polls would support this) that the large majority of top tens would look NOTHING remotely like that top 10 list. And the fact that the list started off with two often-ridiculed Smiths songs does, in my opinion, make it harder to take seriously. Again, though, I love a lot of those songs and find many of them underrated (especially Death Of A Disco Dancer & You've Got Everything Now). That doesn't mean the list is any less unique.

[CrystalGeezer]

I read at first that this article was published in O Magazine and thought, "Wow. Oprah's branching out these days." :p

[Death Disco]

Simon Goddard picks his Smiths top 10

Link leads to Spotify playlist...http://news.qthemusic.com/2012/03/the_real_best_of.html

List is as follows:

Death Of A Disco Dancer
I'm quite fond of this, too. Although this is the best song with the words 'death' and 'disco' in the title: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWZepWteDM

Shakespeare's Sister
The live performance of this from Glastonbury by Morrissey is better than the original. I think.

Half A Person
Nice song, but top 10? Simon Goddard is another ungrateful idiot liar if he really thinks this is a top-ten Smiths song.

Jeane
No way, Javier. This song is awful.

Rubber Ring
Yes. And I know about rubber.

You've Got Everything Now
I like this song. "No I've never had a job because I've never wanted one" -- ring any bells for any of you "artistic" layabouts?

Well I Wonder
Yes. Correct, Mr Goddard. Well done. From one God-damn 'ard man to another.

The Queen Is Dead
Yes.

Stretch Out And Wait
No.

Last Night I Dreamt That Somebody Loved Me
Yes. Although again, I sometimes prefer to listen to the live one on Live At Earls Court. But who is Earl?

P.
Never heard of this one.

[Thesmithsmorrissey]

Stop riffing on Amy. She's awesome, has clout, and incredibly cute feet

okay, maybe I'm just making up the feet part, but getting hip with her doesn't make any of you simpering "Anonymous" twats relevant in any stretch.

Also, I never understand the mass appeal for Last Night I Dreamt. It has a great Mozzer vocal but little else to warrant its status as anything more than "good"

[Thesmithsmorrissey]

since when did news article posts start automatically becoming posts in the forums as well?

Half the fun of leaving comments under the news headers was that the moderators didn't much care about what was being said, unlike in the forums themselves

[Worm]

I read at first that this article was published in O Magazine and thought, "Wow. Oprah's branching out these days." :p

You know Oprah. Always expanding, she is.

[gonzax]

You've got everything now and no There is a light that never goes out????????
well, everybody's entitled to their own opinion, I guess.

[billy scissors]

Come on Billy, "It takes GUTS to be gentile and kind!" I ought to know!

Why don't Jews get herpes?

[Anonymous]

Most of you seem to be missing the point. The article was about choosing a band's best work AWAY from the obvious choices...therefore no "This Charming Man", no "How Soon is Now" etc.

Regardless of that "Shakespeares Sister" is my favourite Smiths single, i love "Death of a Disco Dancer" and "Half a Person" is in my all time top 5. If you don't like the, fine.

[Peterb]

Why don't Jews get herpes?
Oh oh, here comes some anti semitism.

[billy scissors]

Oh oh, here comes some anti semitism.

I thought you might jump in somehow.So come on Pete,why don't Jews get herpes?

[VivaLove]

I thought you might jump in somehow.So come on Pete,why don't Jews get herpes?

Lemme guess. Because not even herpes would... ?
But I still hope the punchline to come is not that plain.

[Death Disco]

Why don't Jews get herpes?

Same reason Africans don't get AI... oh, hang on, that doesn't work.
As you were.

[leedoggpimp]

1. there is a light that
2. i know it's over
3. bigmouth strikes again
4. this charming man
5. what difference does it make
6. girl afraid
7. the headmaster ritual
8. asleep
9. girlfriend in a coma
10. last night i dreamt

[Qvist]

[QUOTE=Worm;1986708067]I disagree, but I certainly understand your point of view. I think there are plenty who agree with you. But may I ask you-- when you say "Everyday Is Like Sunday" is a polar opposite of "Handsome Devil", well when-- I mean, what-- exactly do you mean? Surely not quality. If vitality is the measure, are you saying "Everyday" is like a Sunday nap?

It's just such a striking opposition to make. I don't know if I've ever heard it before.

Perhaps it was a bit hasty. I was referring mainly to those rough edges. Edils is instantly likeable, by nerly anyone, for reasons that are clear to you at the first listening. Even the lyrics are quaintly apocalyptic. Absolutely no rough edges. Hd on The other hand is abrasive. Cockily assertive like hand in glove, but musically even more aggressive. And the music is complex, with that jumpy bass and johnny's guitar paying covering the whole gamut within 2 and a alf minutes: driving, cajoling, filling out texture, lilting melody. Then of course there's the lyrics, which are perhaps the most insistently homoerotic in all of morrisseys catalogue, and takes some time and effort to warm to for those of us who are not wired in that direction. One could have chosen two diferent songs for the same point, but you see what I mean? Thing is, anyone would prefer edils on first listen, but 20 years down the road, i find hd is as fresh and impressive as ever, while edils has long since shot its bolt. It's a nice song, but i honestly feel no need to hear it even once more before i die, and wold never put it on a compilation disk.


I love a soundcheck, instrumental-only version of "There Is A Light", but it didn't quite crack my "secondary" Top Ten.

Never heard of such a one. That sounds interesting!

(again, sorry for the miserable ortography etc. Will try to fix when next posting from a proper computer)

[Anonymous]

Here's my personal favorites list:
1. Bigmouth Strikes Again (this is my favorite song of all time)
2. Girlfriend In A Coma
3. This Charming Man
4. The Queen Is Dead
5. Jeane
6. I Won't Share You
7. How Soon Is Now?
8. Rubber Ring
9. The Headmaster Ritual
10. Unloveable

[Worm]

Perhaps it was a bit hasty. I was referring mainly to those rough edges. Edils is instantly likeable, by nerly anyone, for reasons that are clear to you at the first listening. Even the lyrics are quaintly apocalyptic. Absolutely no rough edges. Hd on The other hand is abrasive. Cockily assertive like hand in glove, but musically even more aggressive. And the music is complex, with that jumpy bass and johnny's guitar paying covering the whole gamut within 2 and a alf minutes: driving, cajoling, filling out texture, lilting melody. Then of course there's the lyrics, which are perhaps the most insistently homoerotic in all of morrisseys catalogue, and takes some time and effort to warm to for those of us who are not wired in that direction. One could have chosen two diferent songs for the same point, but you see what I mean? Thing is, anyone would prefer edils on first listen, but 20 years down the road, i find hd is as fresh and impressive as ever, while edils has long since shot its bolt. It's a nice song, but i honestly feel no need to hear it even once more before i die, and wold never put it on a compilation disk.

I actually know what you mean here, because it's true that the early Smiths songs were better constructed as live pieces. They have a lot of muscle and energy behind them, which is why the early songs have usually had a lot more appeal to fans who prefer punk or hard rock (that's what I've found, anyway). The songs stand up really well when they're played "naked". Once they began producing the songs themselves, they became more complicated, almost orchestral pieces. Unlike you I think that was an improvement, mostly, but then again maybe I agree with you more than I think, because "Rank" is probably my most-played Smiths album.

It's interesting to imagine what a song like "Reel Around The Fountain" would have sounded like if they'd recorded it in 1986. Lush and orchestral, probably, whereas part of the reason the song is so haunting-- at least in the pared-down radio session version-- is that Johnny's guitar sounds so stark and exposed. Compare it to "I Know It's Over". On the record, the backing music (though brilliant) was softened up by the production, while the live version is much more like "Reel Around The Fountain", with Johnny's guitar soaring and slicing through the vocals without the Hated Salford Ensemble. I guess I prefer the later stuff because it sounds fantastic on vinyl and played live; the band of "Rank" is still very much the band rocking out on the "Handsome Devil" live track on their very first 45.

[johnnymunro]

6 out of 10 would be on my list so IMO he has good taste (for what it´s worth)

[Qvist]

I actually know what you mean here, because it's true that the early Smiths songs were better constructed as live pieces. They have a lot of muscle and energy behind them, which is why the early songs have usually had a lot more appeal to fans who prefer punk or hard rock (that's what I've found, anyway). The songs stand up really well when they're played "naked". Once they began producing the songs themselves, they became more complicated, almost orchestral pieces. Unlike you I think that was an improvement, mostly, but then again maybe I agree with you more than I think, because "Rank" is probably my most-played Smiths album.

It's interesting to imagine what a song like "Reel Around The Fountain" would have sounded like if they'd recorded it in 1986. Lush and orchestral, probably, whereas part of the reason the song is so haunting-- at least in the pared-down radio session version-- is that Johnny's guitar sounds so stark and exposed. Compare it to "I Know It's Over". On the record, the backing music (though brilliant) was softened up by the production, while the live version is much more like "Reel Around The Fountain", with Johnny's guitar soaring and slicing through the vocals without the Hated Salford Ensemble. I guess I prefer the later stuff because it sounds fantastic on vinyl and played live; the band of "Rank" is still very much the band rocking out on the "Handsome Devil" live track on their very first 45.

Well, i hate to seem querulous in the face of understanding, but i don't really see it. To me, their early work seem generally more complex musically speaking than their later. The production values are lower and the instrumentation simpler, but the basic structure of the songs are more complex. Take a song lie back to the old house, the harmonic structure of that. There is nothing like that on strngeways, everything there is much more straightforward. No amount of using strings and horns and fluffy production values alter that. Or william. Or you've got everything now - the nearly jazz-like swirling drive of that. Or the strangeness that is the harmonies of that joke isn't funny anymore, a melodic construction that surprises you at every turn. All of that is missing in their late work. They moved in the direction of more simplicity, not less, as far as i can see.

Also, morrissey got more self-conscious and less powerful in some respects. Where, in the later or solo work, is the raw desperation of a line like "vivid and in your prime/you'll leave me behind!"? Oh, he's said it again in many forms but then it seemed as if he was repeating himself. At that point it didn't, even though he had said it before at that point too.

Alo, I don't generally like punk and hard rock. I am much more inclined towards the soft and beautiful. And still....:)

[Worm]

Well, i hate to seem querulous in the face of understanding, but i don't really see it. To me, their early work seem generally more complex musically speaking than their later.

I don't really have the musical vocabulary to debate with any accuracy whether or not "This Charming Man" is more or less complex than "Death Of A Disco Dancer". Certainly, from what I've read in the interviews given by Marr, after they began to produce their own songs the music started to become heavily layered, often with dozens of guitars playing at once (his explanation of "The Headmaster Ritual" is amazing), and of course they started to use synths. Maybe it's true that "Handsome Devil", in some counterintuitive way, is more complex despite sounding simpler on the surface. I dunno. I guess it's a matter of taste, and your taste is mistaken.

I'm kidding. :rolleyes:


Oh, he's said it again in many forms but then it seemed as if he was repeating himself. At that point it didn't, even though he had said it before at that point too.

Erm, aren't you being a tad bit unfair here? Of course the first records are going to sound fresher. I thought Morrissey and Marr did plenty to avoid sounding repetitive; in any case, "You will leave me behind" was echoed in "Miserable Lie" and a few other places, so he was repeating himself even then.

Also, while you can say that Morrissey became more self-conscious, it's also true that his lyrics acquired a lot more credibility and authenticity once he stopped stealing from Shelagh Delaney and "Saturday Night and Sunday Morning". I mean, maybe on a cruel day you can argue that he disappeared down the rabbit hole of "fame, money and lawsuits", as time went on, but at least it wasn't a vision of life borrowed from kitchen sink dramas he saw on TV. Don't get me wrong, I love that influence on the early Smiths. I'm just pointing out that Morrissey's 1983-1984 lyrics seem to have been his most artificial.

As a final point, maybe the desperation you cite in "These Things Take Time" is absent in his solo work, but then again the quiet, almost reverent joy in a song like "Dear God, Please Help Me" was utterly beyond the reach of the early Morrissey. He did evolve.

[Anonymous]

I've never cared for DEATH OF A DISCO DANCER, but I've always liked SHAKESPEAR'S SISTER.

On the other hand, my least favourite Go-Betweens album is 16 LOVERS LANE (no, I'm not so perverse as to say SEND ME A LULLABY is my most favourite - though it is #3), and that is evidently everyone else's favourite, so what do I know? ;)

Tim

[Worm]

I've never cared for DEATH OF A DISCO DANCER, but I've always liked SHAKESPEAR'S SISTER.

On the other hand, my least favourite Go-Betweens album is 16 LOVERS LANE (no, I'm not so perverse as to say SEND ME A LULLABY is my most favourite - though it is #3), and that is evidently everyone else's favourite, so what do I know? ;)

Tim

Don't be ridiculous. "Tallulah" is their masterpiece. :)

[Brigitte]

Yep. It fluctuates. For instance, Rusholme Ruffians took a good 20 years to advance from largely ignored to one of my favorite tracks. That being said, any top 10 of mine would contain largely the same songs as before - this charming man, there is a light, hand in glove, i know it's over, how soon is now, please please please etc.

Exactly the same favourites as mine!

[Gentler Words]

My top 10 contains 25 songs. :) Too many good ones. And I love them all!

1. Last Night I Dreamt That Somebody Loved Me
2. There Is A Light That Never Goes Out
3. Please Please Please Let Me Get What I Want
4. Asleep
5. Ask
6. Rusholme Ruffians
7. What Difference Does It Make
8. William, It Was Really Nothing
9. Girlfriend In A Coma
10. Still Ill
11. Cemetry Gates
12. This Charming Man
13. I Won't Share You
14. Unhappy Birthday
15. Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now
16. Bigmouth Strikes Again
17. I Started Something I Couldn't Finish
18. Panic
19. I Want The One I Can't Have
20. The Queen Is Dead
21. Handsome Devil
22. A Rush And A Push And The Land Is Ours
23. The Boy With The Thorn In His Side
24. I Know It's Over
25. Death Of A Disco Dancer

[Anonymous]

Death of a Disco Dancer at No.1? Death of a Disco Dancer? Is this a joke?

Well, it's someones personal choice, so they can pick what the fuck they like you dickweed.

[Qvist]

I don't really have the musical vocabulary to debate with any accuracy whether or not "This Charming Man" is more or less complex than "Death Of A Disco Dancer". Certainly, from what I've read in the interviews given by Marr, after they began to produce their own songs the music started to become heavily layered, often with dozens of guitars playing at once (his explanation of "The Headmaster Ritual" is amazing), and of course they started to use synths. Maybe it's true that "Handsome Devil", in some counterintuitive way, is more complex despite sounding simpler on the surface. I dunno. I guess it's a matter of taste, and your taste is mistaken.

I'm kidding. :rolleyes:

:) Hehe. I don't really have the vocabulary either. For that matter, I don't know if you actually can measure complexity in music in any objective way. It's just how it seems to me. Handsome Devil does not sound simpler on the surface, to me (although it is not a great example of complexity). But I'm looking at complexity in the melodies and, so to speak, the basic structure of the songs. Adding layers of guitars and synths is to me something different, that goes more to the density of the sound. I don't understand how anyone can experience Death of a Disco Dancer as a complex piece of music - it's just the same four chords over and over and over again? There's different kinds of jingle-jangle added underway, but that's just production stuffing. It is what I experience as a very simple and straightforward piece of music - not just by the relative standards of the Smiths, but by any standard. To me, and I realise this must be fairly subjective, say the acoustic version of Back to the Old house is a much, much, much more complex piece of music, with its intricate guitar and surprising chords and ambivalence of moods.

Not that I would equate complexity with merit, necessarily. Indeed, some of my favorite music long, droning, repetetive jobs. But I think the compexity of nearly all of their early work is a big factor in keeping it interesting. Also it seems obvious to me, so much so that I have never thought to question it prior to this discussion, that their development was in the direction of simpler and more accessible music, where production values increasingly replaced the internal dynamism that drove the earlier songs. A song like You've got everything now, you can listen to it focussing primarily on the bass, or on the guitar, or on the vocals - and it's like three different songs, all of them great. I don't find that on Strangeways.


Erm, aren't you being a tad bit unfair here? Of course the first records are going to sound fresher. I thought Morrissey and Marr did plenty to avoid sounding repetitive; in any case, "You will leave me behind" was echoed in "Miserable Lie" and a few other places, so he was repeating himself even then.

Yes, that's what I attempted to say - he was already repeating himself, but it still sounded fresh. But maybe a bit unfair yes, you have an obvious point.


Also, while you can say that Morrissey became more self-conscious, it's also true that his lyrics acquired a lot more credibility and authenticity once he stopped stealing from Shelagh Delaney and "Saturday Night and Sunday Morning". I mean, maybe on a cruel day you can argue that he disappeared down the rabbit hole of "fame, money and lawsuits", as time went on, but at least it wasn't a vision of life borrowed from kitchen sink dramas he saw on TV. Don't get me wrong, I love that influence on the early Smiths. I'm just pointing out that Morrissey's 1983-1984 lyrics seem to have been his most artificial.

As a final point, maybe the desperation you cite in "These Things Take Time" is absent in his solo work, but then again the quiet, almost reverent joy in a song like "Dear God, Please Help Me" was utterly beyond the reach of the early Morrissey. He did evolve.

Well, I guess that goes to show the relative banality of the merely personal. For my part, I don't think "Dear God" is a particularly good lyric. For one thing, it depends almost wholly for its effect on the listener taking an active interest in Morrissey as a person, which is already arguably a considerable artistic deficiency. I don't have a major gripe about his solo lyrics or anything, they are mostly great in their own way. But equally, I don't really see evolution in a positive sense. Perhaps they have become closer to the real person, but frankly, who cares? I'd rather have This night has opened my eyes from someone who has picked the entire subject matter out of his imagination or from a tv show than a strictly autobiographical Sorry does not help us, any day. I hope he has the sense to make his autobiography a witty and semi-fictious exercise in self-mythification rather than a dreary catalogue of gripes and hardships.

[Worm]

Also it seems obvious to me, so much so that I have never thought to question it prior to this discussion, that their development was in the direction of simpler and more accessible music, where production values increasingly replaced the internal dynamism that drove the earlier songs. A song like You've got everything now, you can listen to it focussing primarily on the bass, or on the guitar, or on the vocals - and it's like three different songs, all of them great. I don't find that on Strangeways.

Coincidentally, last night I watched an interview with Johnny Marr taped in 1987, in the middle of recording "Strangeways". He explains how he was moving the sound of The Smiths away from more commercial, melodic, simpler pop into more complex, "dissonant" (a word he repeated twice), challenging music. Clearly he felt "This Charming Man" was as easy as A-B-C and the stuff for "Strangeways" was much more sophisticated. So it seems Johnny and I disagree with you.

However, he struggled to define the difference, and I think it's for the reasons you've articulated. In some ways a song like "Handsome Devil" is more complex in the way it works than a track like "Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before". The same is true in most art forms. Simplicity is tough and often misleadingly easy-looking. In books, Hemingway is always cited as writing bone-simple prose, for example, but his style is actually a very difficult one to pull off. The problem here stems from ambiguous terminology, I think. At least we agree we don't have exactly the right terms. :rolleyes:


Yes, that's what I attempted to say - he was already repeating himself, but it still sounded fresh. But maybe a bit unfair yes, you have an obvious point.

I excel at making obvious points. :)


Well, I guess that goes to show the relative banality of the merely personal. For my part, I don't think "Dear God" is a particularly good lyric. For one thing, it depends almost wholly for its effect on the listener taking an active interest in Morrissey as a person, which is already arguably a considerable artistic deficiency. I don't have a major gripe about his solo lyrics or anything, they are mostly great in their own way. But equally, I don't really see evolution in a positive sense. Perhaps they have become closer to the real person, but frankly, who cares? I'd rather have This night has opened my eyes from someone who has picked the entire subject matter out of his imagination or from a tv show than a strictly autobiographical Sorry does not help us, any day. I hope he has the sense to make his autobiography a witty and semi-fictious exercise in self-mythification rather than a dreary catalogue of gripes and hardships.

Granted. I prefer "This Night" to "Dear God" as well. However, the one criterion Morrissey places above all others, in his love of music, is honesty. He always seems to ask, or imply the question, "Is this artist singing with naked, helpless, absolute honesty?" I think most of us apply that standard to music we like (even if we admit it's just the impression of honesty, or honesty in an indirect form-- e.g. a singer can put a kids' story like "Horton Hears A Who" to music and the honesty can come through in the emotions conveyed in the vocals). I certainly do with Morrissey. I don't really see one period of his work as more truthful than another. Borrowing heavily from Shelagh Delaney was true to the person he was in 1983, the man who had scraped through the last ten years of his life swimming in books. "Dear God" is true to the man he was a few years ago. It's difficult to say I prefer the non-autobiographical stuff because it's all autobiographical.

I used to think the way you did, but I've come to see all his work as occupying the same spectrum: always himself, always honest. Sure, I prefer a story about a baby dumped on a doorstep to yet another droning complaint about the perils of fame, but they both come across as honest expressions of deeply-felt emotion. That's what really counts.

[Andrewroon]

Goddard appears to be listing his personal favorites, and not an 'objective' list. He mentions numerous times throughout Mozzipedia, as well as in various interviews, that TQID is his pick for the 'best' Smiths song.

Also, Goddard has said on numerous occasions that he no longer listens to The Smiths, which I find interesting, but understand.