Beethoven Was Deaf: those were the days

[bennyhana22]

Had a very big Moz weekend with the iPod and felt compelled to write!

Let's get a few things straight:
1. I'm not here to bash the Man
2. I've been a huge fan for many, many years
3. I read all the stuff about setlists, performances, cancellations etc
4. I know he's 50+ now

BUT:

I know that M sees himself still as a proper recording artist, and quite rightly. So it's only correct that he should 'tour the new record' etc. I acknowledge that he is not the Morrissey of 1987 onwards, not least of all he is much older. But I listened to BWD for the first time in some time over the weekend and the hairs stood up on the back of my neck. I always have said that in the 5 albums allowed on my desert island, V&I would be the first one in te case...but I'm not so sure. On the basis that my live music experience would then be over, I wonder if having both Moz and the live sound would be better? BWD is MAGNIFICENT. But it left me lamenting the fact that never again do I feel I will see Morrissey, and more importantly his band, play like that again. And I have seen it, and I miss it. It's not just the setlist thing, it's the WAY they play. Alain and Boz on twin duelling guitars was unbelievable. There was bite and fervour, anger and excitemtn. They played FAST but not too fast. Songs came alive on stage, the energy was palpable. I'm afraid I rather see today's M and Band as a Morrissey tribute band. Proficiently getting through the numbers without bringing that passion, energy and intangible element to what it means to be swept along at a gig. The setlist thing IS an issue for me. New record? Fine, 'justified'. Stuff from YATQ, ROTT, understandable. But listen to BWD and you almost wonder how he can bear NOT to play stuff from BD, from YA etc. I know he DOES occasionally drop in an old tune or two (Disappointed in the last few years, Playboy etc) but he seems to have turned his back on the rockabilly glory that is Certain People I know, Glamorous Glue etc. I guess it might be a question of his 50 year old voice struggling to cope with some of that stuff - completely reasonable if the case. I don't actually like November...particularly. But I could listen to the BWD version all day, it is STUNNING. Power, power, power. And when they strike up WHIWOFBS as the closer...OMG. I'm one of those whingers who feel strongly that Smiths songs really have no place in his live armoury any more. That was a different band. I know it's unreasonable to expect him to be like he was so long ago, but I'm just sad that I'll never again get the excitement that I did at Aston Villa, at Battersea. Satan rejected my soul? I heard it once, it was incredible. I guess I should just count myself lucky. I know it's all down to taste. I guess what I'm trying to say is how frustrating it is that M doesn't seem to hear what I hear in some of his back catalogue, or he would want to play those magnificent songs as often as he could.

Discuss

love
Ben

[jamescagney]

I feel like we're constantly discussing this. Personally, his last three albums are my top three favorites of his, and V&I and BWD are near the bottom. I like his set lists for the past four tours or so and feel they're pretty evenly distributed between new and old songs.

[bennyhana22]

Thanks for replying JC.

Maybe we're just too differenct in age, you and I. Maybe it's all down to when you were a certain age in Morrissey History. I have no problem with the last three albums. Bits of them are pretty good and I continue to admire him for writing proper, new records, sticking to the principles of musical integrity that he's always championed and labasted a lack of in so many 'musicians' of the last 30 years or more.

But for me, to suggest that the last three were his best work I find 'astonishing', and I mean that with NO element of unkindness or pompousness. It's just that for me, lyrically he isn't a patch on where he was around V&I, BD, KU and Your Arsenal. Musically I think that the quality has reached a plateau of perfectly servicable, occasionally brilliant quality - examples of the latter being '...Paris' which has a real BD air about it and '...Far Off Places' which is rocky and dirty and great. But there are no more Trouble Loves Me's, no more Why Don't You Find Out...s, no more Certain People's. Many might say that was then, don't keep barking on about the past. And they're right. And again I say (arogantly) that unless you saw him at the height of powers that was Spencer, Alain and Boz rocking your bloody head off, then I'm afraid you've never, and will never, see him at his very, very best...

Ben
x

[VacancyForABackscrubber]

I'm with you Ben. I prefer Morrissey's music from the 'rockabilly' days.

[someofusisturningnasty]

He's older, he's changed, he's happier...

I for one wouldn't change his live shows for anything. They are still intense, emotional and unmistakeably Morrissey. Maybe I would have felt differently had I seen him in the early 90's (i was but a bairn then alas), maybe not. I thought he could never top the brilliance of Speedway but I was proved wrong with I'm Not Sorry, Pigsty, Camden, to name but a few.

it would be nice if he could come back to Liverpool though, the fanny

[ray_afraid]

Beethoven is one of my favorite Moz releases. Everything is great.

But saying he has been ignoring his old catalog recently seems quite untrue to me. Every tour is heavy on the newest material. That's nothing he's started in the 2000's. BWD is very heavy on the YA material (which is great for me, it's my favorite album) just as Live at Earls Court is heavy on YATQ, just as the Tour of the Tormentors was heavy on ROTT, ect ect and he still always plays songs from all over his discography. And saying he has "turned his back on his old rockabilly glory" is certainly false as he has played The Loop (the BEST and most genuinely 'rockabilly' song of his career) at almost every show for the past two years and was ending shows with You're Gonna Need Someone On Your Side not too long ago.

[dizzywhore_1804]

I agree with what you're saying except I never got to see the old band live. Maybe if I'd made this post I'd be accused of romanticising it so I'm glad you got in before me.

Having been to a few Morrissey gigs since the ROTT tour it does seem like he's struggling these days - perhaps not physically but the enthusiasm doesn't seem to be there. Seeing him at his 50th gig and Albert Hall this year I was struck by how lacklustre his performance seemed. He's still putting in effort, but behind the eyes I'm not so sure.

As for this belief (both his and a few on here) that the past three albums have been his best ever work I'm utterly astonished, and while I respect the opinion I am also depressed by it - people have claimed his style is more in-your-face than it used to be, but I find he's just singing about exactly the same things without the lyrical skill he used to display (most evident in THPGU, OK By Myself and Sorry Doesn't Help on YoR). People are happy to slag off lesser artists on here despite them being infinitely more lyrical interesting, at least certainly less clumsy, than Morrissey has been recently.

As for the setlist I find it boring. I understand he's playing what he likes, but we're paying to see him - a bit less repetition wouldn't leave anyone disappointed.

[jamescagney]

Thanks for replying JC. Maybe we're just too differenct in age, you and I.

It's possible. But I'm 39 and got into the Smiths while they were still together. I do think seeing him live tends to make his songs more special to some. There are a handful of songs I wasn't that crazy about until Morrissey forced us to listen to them over and over at his shows. I feel like he picks one or two less popular songs that he likes for his tours, either for something to please him instead of the audience, or to try to get people to like them. Lucky Lisp, for example.

It's true he's been heavily featuring the Loop lately. Interestingly, I can't listen to the recorded version of the Loop at all, because when he does it live, it's SO much better, the old version pales. I need to go find a good quality live version of it.

[VacancyForABackscrubber]

At the end of the day I still love him no matter what so I disapprove of all this kind of harsh criticism.

Come on, it's Morrissey!

[hand in glove]

Thanks for replying JC.

Maybe we're just too differenct in age, you and I. Maybe it's all down to when you were a certain age in Morrissey History. I have no problem with the last three albums. Bits of them are pretty good and I continue to admire him for writing proper, new records, sticking to the principles of musical integrity that he's always championed and labasted a lack of in so many 'musicians' of the last 30 years or more.

But for me, to suggest that the last three were his best work I find 'astonishing', and I mean that with NO element of unkindness or pompousness. It's just that for me, lyrically he isn't a patch on where he was around V&I, BD, KU and Your Arsenal. Musically I think that the quality has reached a plateau of perfectly servicable, occasionally brilliant quality - examples of the latter being '...Paris' which has a real BD air about it and '...Far Off Places' which is rocky and dirty and great. But there are no more Trouble Loves Me's, no more Why Don't You Find Out...s, no more Certain People's. Many might say that was then, don't keep barking on about the past. And they're right. And again I say (arogantly) that unless you saw him at the height of powers that was Spencer, Alain and Boz rocking your bloody head off, then I'm afraid you've never, and will never, see him at his very, very best...

Ben
x

Well, I don't think it comes down to age, or a certain age in Morrissey history. I'm probably around the same age as you, but I agree with JC. BWD is GREAT, don't get me wrong, but I love his new stuff, and find it easy to grow along and embrace him musically. I miss the old days, too, though. Good times! :guitar:

[Bluebirds]

Aston Villa Leisure Centre? Feb 95? Saturday night. What a gig, and I was desperately ill.

As a mid-30s fan, I concur with your reasoning but then I have seen Morrissey since then do some fantastic gigs, RAH 2002, Blackpool 2004, London Palladium 2006, GMex 2006, Lille 2008, Salisbury 2009 spring to mind. (Whoever posted RAH 2009 being lacklustre I completely agree with you and I didn't think the 50th birthday gig was all that)

I think that in those days his touring was relatively sporadic and rare (and maybe thats an age thing) that the whole seeing Morrissey live was a spectacle.
Now I think he's turned into a bit of a vaudeville entertainer often feeling the need to say something onstage? (which he never really used to do back in the early 90s, you actually believed he was genuinely shy)

But in an ideal world that 90s band would still be his live band, you felt there was camaraderie there and a spirit where now, to me, its Morrissey and a backing band.
He should include Smiths songs but arguably not to the extent he does and the saddest thing for me is that I will no longer travel to see Morrissey for a myriad of reasons. That Albert Hall gig being one of them. Manchester or Marr I might (or Glasgow Barras as I was in Glasgow for New Year and everyone Iwas with said you should go to a gig of a band you really love in there)

as an aside I love The Fall and they hardly play any old stuff live. But yet the whole experience of seeing The Fall leaves me entranced. With Moz I'ma fraid to say its dissipating (to put it diplomatically)

[bennyhana22]

It's possible. But I'm 39 and got into the Smiths while they were still together. I do think seeing him live tends to make his songs more special to some. There are a handful of songs I wasn't that crazy about until Morrissey forced us to listen to them over and over at his shows. I feel like he picks one or two less popular songs that he likes for his tours, either for something to please him instead of the audience, or to try to get people to like them. Lucky Lisp, for example.

It's true he's been heavily featuring the Loop lately. Interestingly, I can't listen to the recorded version of the Loop at all, because when he does it live, it's SO much better, the old version pales. I need to go find a good quality live version of it.

Thanks for all the replies, guys - it was lovely to spark a little discussion after I was so 'taken' by Mosrrissey love over the weekend! For the record, I also listened to the whole of YATQ at the same time, so certainly would not be dismissive of later records.

JC that's amazing! I'm 40 and got into The Smiths AFTER they split, but then Morrissey's solo stuff very shortly after that. I think it's utterly fascinating that you and I are the same age, love The Smiths and yet have quite different likes and loves with M's cannon. I'm particulalry taken by you placing V&I so low (though not in anyway suggesting you are 'wrong') as my experience is that of all the albums, the one that perenially tops the lists of M albums for 'people of our age' is V&I. Certainly in the Music Press of our 3rd and 4th decades, V&I is almost universally seen as his masterpiece. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon, but I do see it as probably his best single long-player, though I am a terrible sucker for Southpaw G! *blushes, though not sure why*

Ben

[Jukebox Jury]

Been rattling my brains for ages and can't be bothered going to a website to check.....but..... what the hell is
'WHIWOFBS'
I know it will be obvious when someone tells me....until then..... it's bugging me:o

Jukebox Jury

[bennyhana22]

Aston Villa Leisure Centre? Feb 95? Saturday night. What a gig, and I was desperately ill.

As a mid-30s fan, I concur with your reasoning but then I have seen Morrissey since then do some fantastic gigs, RAH 2002, Blackpool 2004, London Palladium 2006, GMex 2006, Lille 2008, Salisbury 2009 spring to mind. (Whoever posted RAH 2009 being lacklustre I completely agree with you and I didn't think the 50th birthday gig was all that)

I think that in those days his touring was relatively sporadic and rare (and maybe thats an age thing) that the whole seeing Morrissey live was a spectacle.
Now I think he's turned into a bit of a vaudeville entertainer often feeling the need to say something onstage? (which he never really used to do back in the early 90s, you actually believed he was genuinely shy)

But in an ideal world that 90s band would still be his live band, you felt there was camaraderie there and a spirit where now, to me, its Morrissey and a backing band.
He should include Smiths songs but arguably not to the extent he does and the saddest thing for me is that I will no longer travel to see Morrissey for a myriad of reasons. That Albert Hall gig being one of them. Manchester or Marr I might (or Glasgow Barras as I was in Glasgow for New Year and everyone Iwas with said you should go to a gig of a band you really love in there)

as an aside I love The Fall and they hardly play any old stuff live. But yet the whole experience of seeing The Fall leaves me entranced. With Moz I'ma fraid to say its dissipating (to put it diplomatically)

Don't get me wrong BB, and I hope I prefaced this thread carefully enough for people to be clear that this was not intended to be 'negative' or have a pop at the great man. I have seen him Just pre-YATQ, on the YATQ tour, ROTT-tour and enjoyed them all. I've never had a bad night with Moz, if some rather short ones! But AV leisure centre, Feb 1995? Oh my blinkin' gawd! Still to this day the best gig of my life. My first Morrissey gig and just astonishing. Loud, raucous, angry, intense. I've never seen so many grown men openly scream their platonic love for another man! I saw crowd surfers go OTT 2 or three times! He played WDYFOFY and made me cry, he played NMHIF and filled mine. It was unbelievable. And that's what I mean. He's still great, his voice is excellent, but - as another poster astutely commented above - is it there behind the eyes. He can sing the words that I know and love and touch me still but I'm not sure he sings them like he means them so much anymore. And sorry, but I like guitars, loud squealing guitars. The guitars of YA, the guitars of SG, of parts of Maladjusted. Yes the two most maligned records are two of my favourites and I would take SG and Mal over YATQ, ROTT and YOR any day!

Ben

[bennyhana22]

Been rattling my brains for ages and can't be bothered going to a website to check.....but..... what the hell is
'WHIWOFBS'
I know it will be obvious when someone tells me....until then..... it's bugging me:o

Jukebox Jury

We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful

Listen to it as a set closer on Beethoven Was Deaf and ask yourself if you ever need to hear How Soon Is Now again, especially to end a Morrisseey show!

Ben

[Bluebirds]

Morrissey still has "it" though just not consistently. Some of the last 3 albums and b-sides are still unique to Morrissey and the highlights are amongst some of his strongest solo canon. Those highlights stick out like a sore thumb though.

Since the "comeback" its seemingly all about vocal melodies, rather than lyrical content (his singing on ROTT and YOR is pretty spectacular, maybe partially down to studio wizardry) but it must be difficult as a 50year old recording artiste of 25 years plus standing not to repeat the same themes and to discover new inspiration. This is why ROTT was, for me, up there with those halycon 90s days. However I rarely listen to it whilst with Vauxhall, Southpaw and Your Arsenal I do (Southpaw being an album I have grown to love)

I dunno. Does any of it matter? Not really.:tears:

[Jukebox Jury]

We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful

Listen to it as a set closer on Beethoven Was Deaf and ask yourself if you ever need to hear How Soon Is Now again, especially to end a Morrisseey show!

Ben

Thanks - I actually just did go to ''passions'' website as I want to go to bed with a clear mind:lbf: (but thanks anyway:thumb:)

Can't listen to the album as I don't have any live Morrissey albums.
I only have three live albums in my whole collection (one is 'Rank' and only been played three times)
The other two are Siouxsie & The Banshees 'Nocturn' (I was there for the first night at Royal Albert Hall in 1983) and a Toyah album:guitar:
Live albums and live B-sides just don't float my boat.

Jukebox Jury

[anon x]

it must be difficult as a 50year old recording artiste of 25 years plus standing not to repeat the same themes and to discover new inspiration.

Bowie,David Bryne,Eno,John Cale,Elvis Costello,Mark E Smith among others have all managed it.

Morrissey is stuck in the groove.

[bennyhana22]

[QUOTE=Bluebirds;1291024]Morrissey still has "it" though just not consistently. Some of the last 3 albums and b-sides are still unique to Morrissey and the highlights are amongst some of his strongest solo canon. Those highlights stick out like a sore thumb though.

Since the "comeback" its seemingly all about vocal melodies, rather than lyrical content (his singing on ROTT and YOR is pretty spectacular, maybe partially down to studio wizardry) but it must be difficult as a 50year old recording artiste of 25 years plus standing not to repeat the same themes and to discover new inspiration. This is why ROTT was, for me, up there with those halycon 90s days. However I rarely listen to it whilst with Vauxhall, Southpaw and Your Arsenal I do (Southpaw being an album I have grown to love)

Couldn't agree more. I remarked to myself listening to Quarry on Saturday just how fantastic his voice had BECOME. And ROTT was a super return to 90's rocking out, but with a little too much of the brass and keyboard moments that has made his sound a little too 'soft' for THIS Morrissey fan. Remember how hard The Smiths rocked? I guess the fundemental issue for me is that I like my music LOUD (unless its the quiet bits I like!) and so sweet as the I'm not sorry's and Let me kiss you's are, and enjoy them like I do, they're not Morrissey snarling, tongue out, shirt open, fake cuts and bruises and in your face. Still love him though

Ben

[Bluebirds]

Don't get me wrong BB, and I hope I prefaced this thread carefully enough for people to be clear that this was not intended to be 'negative' or have a pop at the great man. I have seen him Just pre-YATQ, on the YATQ tour, ROTT-tour and enjoyed them all. I've never had a bad night with Moz, if some rather short ones! But AV leisure centre, Feb 1995? Oh my blinkin' gawd! Still to this day the best gig of my life. My first Morrissey gig and just astonishing. Loud, raucous, angry, intense. I've never seen so many grown men openly scream their platonic love for another man! I saw crowd surfers go OTT 2 or three times! He played WDYFOFY and made me cry, he played NMHIF and filled mine. It was unbelievable. And that's what I mean. He's still great, his voice is excellent, but - as another poster astutely commented above - is it there behind the eyes. He can sing the words that I know and love and touch me still but I'm not sure he sings them like he means them so much anymore. And sorry, but I like guitars, loud squealing guitars. The guitars of YA, the guitars of SG, of parts of Maladjusted. Yes the two most maligned records are two of my favourites and I would take SG and Mal over YATQ, ROTT and YOR any day!

Ben

Do you also think that in those pre-internet days not really having a diddly squit what was going to come next may have played some part in proceedings? And maybe seeing those Vauxhall songs live? And it was your first Moz gig? Lucky you!!!

That AV gig was fucking spectacular

[bennyhana22]

Thanks - I actually just did go to ''passions'' website as I want to go to bed with a clear mind:lbf: (but thanks anyway:thumb:)

Can't listen to the album as I don't have any live Morrissey albums.
I only have three live albums in my whole collection (one is 'Rank' and only been played three times)
The other two are Siouxsie & The Banshees 'Nocturn' (I was there for the first night at Royal Albert Hall in 1983) and a Toyah album:guitar:
Live albums and live B-sides just don't float my boat.

Jukebox Jury

OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here JJ and say that I GUARANTEE that BWD would absolutely thrill you. I'm also not a huhge fan of live albums in general, but there are a few exceptions and BWD is one of those. The sheer unrelenting energy that hammers through the setlist is incredible. The production is excellent, giving a great live feel and not smoothing two many edges, but still with great instrument separation so you can hear everything. There's plenty of authentic (sounding) crowd noise, singing etc to drft you off into a virtual crowd. Seriously, give it a listen - preferably through decent speakers or headphones. I am 99.87% certain you'll be blown away. It was the first place I ever heard National Front Disco - WOW!

Ben

[Bluebirds]

Bowie,David Bryne,Eno,John Cale,Elvis Costello,Mark E Smith among others have all managed it.

Morrissey is stuck in the groove.

I always remember a review about the time of ROTT where the reviewer said something along the lines of:

if only Morrissey had put his genius into recording and his talent into his persona as opposed to the other way around then.....

[Bluebirds]

The old fogies have taken over the asylum.:lbf::lbf:

[bennyhana22]

Do you also think that in those pre-internet days not really having a diddly squit what was going to come next may have played some part in proceedings? And maybe seeing those Vauxhall songs live? And it was your first Moz gig? Lucky you!!!

That AV gig was fucking spectacular

I've posted before (might have been on the main M-solo site, not the forum) about the 'net 'killing' the excitement of tours. I can't stop myself looking as soon as M and others start a tour to see the setlist...because I CAN. I remember those most precious of moments in the queue...'What're they gonna open with?'...'What do you think the encore will be?'...Now we KNOW the setlist, the order, the encore. :(

Sorry you were sick that night. AV was spectacular. Just remembering it now. Particularly NFD, a track I was hoping for (but didn't know was coming!) and loving Boxers and an incredible Speedway to close. As soon as Speedway finished this enormous bloke next to me just put both hands up to M and screamed 'Thank You!'. Then back on for Shoplifters in a vintage Villa shirt (same for each town every night, I believe) what a fucking tour that was! Got the Introducing Morrissey video on VHS, made up of two shows from that tour. Ahhhhhh....

Ben

[hand in glove]

I think that in those days his touring was relatively sporadic and rare (and maybe thats an age thing) that the whole seeing Morrissey live was a spectacle.

Now I think he's turned into a bit of a vaudeville entertainer often feeling the need to say something onstage? (which he never really used to do back in the early 90s, you actually believed he was genuinely shy)

But in an ideal world that 90s band would still be his live band, you felt there was camaraderie there and a spirit where now, to me, its Morrissey and a backing band.
He should include Smiths songs but arguably not to the extent he does

I agree with you (Except I'm happy he talks in between songs now - it makes the show more intimate). But, I would love to see that 90's band back and the spirit you speak of. I just see it as Morrissey and Boz now - which isn't a bad thing, of course! ;)

[bennyhana22]

Thanks for some lovely chat this evening folks

Must go to bed - up early

Toodle pip - might just listen to a wee bit of Moz before nodding off

Ben
x

[Bluebirds]

I've posted before (might have been on the main M-solo site, not the forum) about the 'net 'killing' the excitement of tours. I can't stop myself looking as soon as M and others start a tour to see the setlist...because I CAN. I remember those most precious of moments in the queue...'What're they gonna open with?'...'What do you think the encore will be?'...Now we KNOW the setlist, the order, the encore. :(

Sorry you were sick that night. AV was spectacular. Just remembering it now. Particularly NFD, a track I was hoping for (but didn't know was coming!) and loving Boxers and an incredible Speedway to close. As soon as Speedway finished this enormous bloke next to me just put both hands up to M and screamed 'Thank You!'. Then back on for Shoplifters in a vintage Villa shirt (same for each town every night, I believe) what a fucking tour that was! Got the Introducing Morrissey video on VHS, made up of two shows from that tour. Ahhhhhh....

Ben

By the time the tour rolled down towards Cardiff and Bristol there were no vintage football shirts which probably says more about our respective cities football heritage!! (he was quite ill though) Managed to get up onstage at Cardiff only to be ushered away before the handshake (millimetres in it, like that imaginary carp I didn't catch...)

Think I may put that on now. Introducing Morrissey. Yet to play it on my plush new TV.

Great days.

[jamescagney]

JC that's amazing! I'm 40 and got into The Smiths AFTER they split, but then Morrissey's solo stuff very shortly after that. I think it's utterly fascinating that you and I are the same age, love The Smiths and yet have quite different likes and loves with M's cannon. I'm particulalry taken by you placing V&I so low (though not in anyway suggesting you are 'wrong') as my experience is that of all the albums, the one that perenially tops the lists of M albums for 'people of our age' is V&I. Certainly in the Music Press of our 3rd and 4th decades, V&I is almost universally seen as his masterpiece. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon, but I do see it as probably his best single long-player, though I am a terrible sucker for Southpaw G! *blushes, though not sure why*

Well, I do love Southpaw and Arsenal. They'd probably be #4 and #5. So I do like his rockabilly and other albums from that period. I believe I'm in the minority for finding the last two and Southpaw among his top 5. I myself just prefer some fast rockers to be mixed in, not all slow ballads. And I think the lyrics on the last three albums are really clever, personal and funny, though not everyone thinks so.

[Bluebirds]

I've posted before (might have been on the main M-solo site, not the forum) about the 'net 'killing' the excitement of tours. I can't stop myself looking as soon as M and others start a tour to see the setlist...because I CAN. I remember those most precious of moments in the queue...'What're they gonna open with?'...'What do you think the encore will be?'...Now we KNOW the setlist, the order, the encore. :(



Always try and catch one of the first gigs in a tour is my recommendation. I wonder how many people have the self-control to not have a slight peek at what the band/ singer will probably do that night... I know that I fucking can't!!!

[Pokey]

Whilst I certainly love when Moz gets a bit rockabilly (I think The Loop should forever be a staple in the setlist, absolutely brilliant), a whole show of it suffers a bit, he's not a rockabilly artist. I think Stephen Street said after he saw Moz in that era and remembers them playing sudehead, he said something like "That's not what it's supposed to sound like...".
It's definitely great to mix it up and experiment, case in point the Banjo on Sunday back in 2002 .. it's not MEANT to sound like that, but it's different and worked for awhile.
The songs written in the era of BWD definitely work with a rockabilly style because they were written with that in mind.
But honestly, I much prefer the latest version of The Loop to the one on BWD .. it sounds a little thin .. the current version has this nice full sound to it, much meatier and yet still rockabilly. I am more than happy with the current set of musicians he is with .. Matt Walker pounds the hell out of those drums with a lot of passion, Jesse might not be the sentimental favorite over Alain, but his guitar playing is good enough (maybe keep Alain for the song writing though). Solomon is a dab hand at the bass, Boz is Boz and maybe just get Mikey back ... would much prefer that over "the lads" (who wern't bad or anything). The problem now comes with the lack of change in the setlist and some of the sloppy writing for albums (lyrics and music). But as a live band, they sound just as fantastic, if not more so now than ever. so to me, BWD is great for a period piece, but I'd not want Moz to always have a sound like that.

[Qvist]

Thanks for replying JC.

Maybe we're just too differenct in age, you and I. Maybe it's all down to when you were a certain age in Morrissey History. I have no problem with the last three albums. Bits of them are pretty good and I continue to admire him for writing proper, new records, sticking to the principles of musical integrity that he's always championed and labasted a lack of in so many 'musicians' of the last 30 years or more.

But for me, to suggest that the last three were his best work I find 'astonishing', and I mean that with NO element of unkindness or pompousness. It's just that for me, lyrically he isn't a patch on where he was around V&I, BD, KU and Your Arsenal. Musically I think that the quality has reached a plateau of perfectly servicable, occasionally brilliant quality - examples of the latter being '...Paris' which has a real BD air about it and '...Far Off Places' which is rocky and dirty and great. But there are no more Trouble Loves Me's, no more Why Don't You Find Out...s, no more Certain People's. Many might say that was then, don't keep barking on about the past. And they're right. And again I say (arogantly) that unless you saw him at the height of powers that was Spencer, Alain and Boz rocking your bloody head off, then I'm afraid you've never, and will never, see him at his very, very best...

Ben
x

I think your comment about age may have something to it, although I have no idea if it applies in JCs case. I was around when it began in 1983, and for my part, I find it equally astounding that anyone can regard the early part of his solo career as being "at his very, very best". To me, his "very very best" was without any comparison whatsoever the Smiths - and more specifically, the early Smiths (though granted, TQID comes close). Possibly because to me, Hatful of Hollow is the template that everything else is judged against, as his early solo stuff seems to be the template for you. Anyway, from that vantage point I don't experience his early solo work as superior to his last records. Except for ROTT. There's been something of a turn towards croonerism and also from rawness to polishedness (even in his noisiest songs), but I think that rather suits him actually. It didn't suit the Smiths (I find Strangeways deplorably overpolished, airy and short of dynamics), but it does suit Morrissey as a solo artist.

cheers

[joe frady]

This is the album review that appeared in the art journal 'Frieze'. I think it pretty much nails it.
Bracewell on Beethoven (http://www.frieze.com/issue/article/beethoven_was_deaf_morrissey_live/)
I agree it's a much underrated record. I rarely listen to live albums, like most folks, but I regard 'Beethoven' as, basically, 'Your Arsenal' on steroids. I listen to 'Beethoven' more often than 'Arsenal'. Until 'Arsenal' gets the remastering it needs and deserves, 'Beethoven' just sounds better. On my iPod at least, 'Your Arsenal' just sounds too thin and weedy. It should be Loud. Plus the version of 'Suedehead' is aces. I'm pretty sure Mr.Street saw a live version on the 'Kill Uncle' jaunt. By the time the 'Arsenal' tour was at it's peak 'Suedehead' was amazing. Perhaps it wasn't meant to sound like that, but perhaps it sounded better.
I also think the album is a slightly inaccurate record of the Moz band at that time. The album is clearly (or rather, 'Clearmountain-ly') a very produced live LP. I have no problem with this. But it is a wee bit risky to listen to this and, with the rose tinted hearing aid, think back to them good old rotten days of Yore Arsenal, etc. ;)
In my opinion the live set-up since Quarry has been excellent, give or take. Probably reaching it's peak at the high point of the 'Ringleader' tour (say, final Sunday Night at the London Palladium). I don't especially hold with the romanticisation of 'th'Lads'-era. I recall some pretty wobbly shows on the 'Uncle' and 'Arsenal' tours. A few nights where the rampant adulation got us through.

[Scarlet Ibis]

Thanks for all the replies, guys - it was lovely to spark a little discussion after I was so 'taken' by Mosrrissey love over the weekend! For the record, I also listened to the whole of YATQ at the same time, so certainly would not be dismissive of later records.

JC that's amazing! I'm 40 and got into The Smiths AFTER they split, but then Morrissey's solo stuff very shortly after that. I think it's utterly fascinating that you and I are the same age, love The Smiths and yet have quite different likes and loves with M's cannon. I'm particulalry taken by you placing V&I so low (though not in anyway suggesting you are 'wrong') as my experience is that of all the albums, the one that perenially tops the lists of M albums for 'people of our age' is V&I. Certainly in the Music Press of our 3rd and 4th decades, V&I is almost universally seen as his masterpiece. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon, but I do see it as probably his best single long-player, though I am a terrible sucker for Southpaw G! *blushes, though not sure why*

Ben

I agree with all JC said. I'm 38 and got into The Smiths while they were still together as well. (I'm JC's wife. A shared love of Morrissey was one of the reasons we sparked with each other.)

V&I has always bored me a little bit. I mean, it's nice... It just lacks that little bit of magic that I love in Morrissey's music.

ROTT was IT for me. It's still my favorite Morrissey album. I know it's wrong of me, but I tend to look at those who dislike it through slitty judgmental eyes. I feel like they are willfully misunderstanding those songs. Quarry and YOR tie for 2nd place.

His older songs were fantastic, but his voice wasn't strong enough. Something happened after The Smiths. His voice became mild. For years! It's back up to Smiths-level powerful again and I'm loving it.

With my other favorite bands (who shall remain nameless), I tend to agree with you. Most artists don't keep progressing in a way that makes me happy. Sometimes they go off in a direction that doesn't speak to me at all. Sometimes they decide on a formula and keep cranking out the same song over and over. Morrissey is the only recording artist who has been around for a long time whose art has grown and changed in a way that pleases me. It baffles me when I come to Solo and see all the pining for the old days, the skinny abdomen, the hairless arm pits, the celibate pride. I like him now. I feel like he and I grew up together.

[Qvist]

His older songs were fantastic, but his voice wasn't strong enough. Something happened after The Smiths. His voice became mild. For years! It's back up to Smiths-level powerful again and I'm loving it.

I've often thought though that there's an abyss between his Smiths-era voice and the way he is singing now. Not that it necessarily contradicts your point about strength. But back then his singing was frankly frequently rather inept, technically speaking. He got by more on a sort of extraordinary don't-give-a-damn expressivity, to put it like that. He knew how to make a voice count. Today, he sounds technically masterful, almost polished. I think that allows him to be a powerful singer, but in a very different way. The kind of vocals he delivers on, say, The world is full of crashing bores, is pretty hard to imagine him doing in 1984. Perhaps he was somewhere in transit between the two during the early years of his solo career. Vauxhall seems to me to be the album where he found his present vocal form, though it has gotten even more pronounced with time.

cheers

[bennyhana22]

I think your comment about age may have something to it, although I have no idea if it applies in JCs case. I was around when it began in 1983, and for my part, I find it equally astounding that anyone can regard the early part of his solo career as being "at his very, very best". To me, his "very very best" was without any comparison whatsoever the Smiths - and more specifically, the early Smiths (though granted, TQID comes close). Possibly because to me, Hatful of Hollow is the template that everything else is judged against, as his early solo stuff seems to be the template for you. Anyway, from that vantage point I don't experience his early solo work as superior to his last records. Except for ROTT. There's been something of a turn towards croonerism and also from rawness to polishedness (even in his noisiest songs), but I think that rather suits him actually. It didn't suit the Smiths (I find Strangeways deplorably overpolished, airy and short of dynamics), but it does suit Morrissey as a solo artist.

cheers

I think you've possibly just identified (or at least illustrated) the most important determining factor in these tyoes of discussion about Moz - namely that people's preferences are largely (but not exclusively) influenced by their inherent favouring of the songwriting. For me, therefore, the 'very best' comes at the peak of powers of Alain and Boz (YA, V&I, SG) and whilst I love the Smiths, I have to acknowledge that I prefer the songwriting of B&A during that period to that of Mr Marr (assuming Moz is the constant in these changing eras). Those who like Quarry onwards best must, I guess 'prefer' the writing of his later collaborators. What do you think?

Ben

[Qvist]

Ah, into the murky depths that is the whats and hows of preference. :)

I really don't know. I've observed, for my own part, a general tendency for the first record I really get into by a given artist to assume the subsequent function of a template. That is, it tends to more or less consciously define my expectations or what I'm looking for in subsequent offerings. That again tends to block appreciation of new elements in later work, who get overshadowed by the relative absence of the things you loved in the first record and keep listening out for. It took me many years to develop any great affection for Morrissey's solo work for this reason - it was always disappointing because I was listeninig for the Smiths and rarely found it, and even when I did it was a pale copy. Vauxhall broke that because it made me realise what I had been doing and how pointless it was, and that I needed to approach the music from a different angle. But there is still no way anything different he might do today will equal the early Smiths to me, as nothing else ever will either.

Now, that's not invariably the case. For instance, it took me half a year to get into Pulp's This is Hardcore, because it just didn't make sense to me against the background of Different Class. In the end though, I found it superior to its predecessor.

I suspect all of this however is very individual. To some people, personal history will mean a lot - the circumstances under which an album was listened to, the way it connected with their lives at that time. Style seems to matter to many people - some plainly don't much like ballads, others plainly don't much like the noisy songs. There's enough breadth of style in Morrissey's production to make that a possible dividing point - you could well sort his production broadly into "rock songs", "pop songs" and "crooner numbers", with not too many songs that resist such classification. Personally I find this matters little (to me there's a shorter distance between "You're gonna need someone on your side" and "Interlude" than between the former and any non-Morrissey glam number, or the latter and any non-Morrissey french chanson), but people will differ in this. It comes down to what you're looking for, and what you are generally disposed to like. Which, judging from the range of opinion about almost any album or song, is obviously very different things from person to person.

What would be interesting is to select a few songs from the ongoing poll with the lowest possible number of people giving, say, a lower rating than seven. And some songs with the lowest possible number of people giving a high rating. And see if each group have any obvious commonalities. Perhaps that would indicate something about whatever common minimum denominators exist between fans when it comes to liking or disliking songs.

To answer your direct question, the interpretation that preference is guided by the songwriters doesn't hold good for me at least. My rating would be Vauxhall, Quarry, Viva Hate, Arsenal, Refusal, Bona Drag, Maladjusted, Southpaw, ROTT, Uncle. A pretty even spread between periods, songwriters and styles, if my knowledge in that regard holds good? Plus, at least from Vauxhall to Southpaw, the difference in affection isn't really that great - much less than for most other acts I like.

cheers

[Bluebirds]

He started something didn't he?

1) I know that The Smiths and Morrissey are one and the same in some people's eyes but to me they are two separate entities in terms how I regard their music. Never having seen The Smiths they, to me, are probably akin to how McCartney/Lennon fans who weren't there regard The Beatles

2) I think his live band now are better musicians than th'Lads but (and maybe this is nostalgia as well) there was the mirage of a gang impression, and I could reagrd them as a group. Another reason for this I have realised may be because they were all English and I obviously suffer from rampant xenophobia when it comes to anything American:D But not as badly as some people moaning about Cadburys being taken over by Kraft!
No seriously I do think that you can identify easier with "some of our own." Unfortunately.

3) Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just mine is right!:lbf: Equally opinions are like arseholes/assholes. Everybody has one!

[jamescagney]

For me, therefore, the 'very best' comes at the peak of powers of Alain and Boz (YA, V&I, SG). Those who like Quarry onwards best must, I guess 'prefer' the writing of his later collaborators. What do you think?

I'm not sure that's it, because Alain (and Boz) were the major songwriters throughout all of these periods. Refusal is 75% Alain and Boz, Swords even more so.

The rhythm section has changed, it's true. But then we all know the rhythm section is only 10% of the contribution, not 25%, right? ;)

[Chief Brody.]

I recall listening to Beethoven Was Deaf on its its release and thought it was fantastic ( still do ) especially We Hate It as the closing number,thought it was a real stormer to finish on,this was right up until the point I discovered that it was actually the song that opened the show that night!:lbf:

[DAVIE]

Morrissey does do a lot of his songs on a slower tempo,which sometimes actually slaughters his songs, especially "Smiths" songs. "Sister I'm A Poet" is a fast upbeat song but the last time he played the song, it was slower than walking pace.
One question I want to know: Does Mike Joyce get royalities from Morrissey singing Smiths songs? Because I know he used to have certain royalities on Smiths albums.

[Gregor Samsa]

Morrissey does do a lot of his songs on a slower tempo,which sometimes actually slaughters his songs, especially "Smiths" songs. "Sister I'm A Poet" is a fast upbeat song but the last time he played the song, it was slower than walking pace.
One question I want to know: Does Mike Joyce get royalities from Morrissey singing Smiths songs? Because I know he used to have certain royalities on Smiths albums.

That Joyce-character can't possibly get royalties for Mozzer playing Smiths songs. How would that be? He never wrote anything.

[jamescagney]

Morrissey does do a lot of his songs on a slower tempo,which sometimes actually slaughters his songs, especially "Smiths" songs. "Sister I'm A Poet" is a fast upbeat song but the last time he played the song, it was slower than walking pace.
One question I want to know: Does Mike Joyce get royalities from Morrissey singing Smiths songs? Because I know he used to have certain royalities on Smiths albums.

I doubt it, I think his royalties are just for Joyce's performances. He isn't listed as a songwriter. Singing cover songs at concerts is free, it's when you sell a cover version on an official DVD or CD that royalties get paid. It's all fairly moot, as there are only a few recent Morrissey recordings AFAIK that have any Smiths covers (M in Manchester, and MAYBE bonus material here and there.

[Raphael Lambach]

Those days was very important in Morrissey's career, but I don't think they were the best ones. They are one of the best days.. I admit he had found good players to work together In the recent years Morrissey's been doing a good work and I'm gonna say that 'til I'm blue in my face. I also admit I'd rather cut some years off from his career, but when someone say that everything that was done after BWD is awful I cannot agree. YoR, YATQ and even RoTT are good album show up to us a wonderful moment of Morrissey.

[singmetosleep]

Had a very big Moz weekend with the iPod and felt compelled to write!

Let's get a few things straight:
1. I'm not here to bash the Man
2. I've been a huge fan for many, many years
3. I read all the stuff about setlists, performances, cancellations etc
4. I know he's 50+ now

BUT:

I know that M sees himself still as a proper recording artist, and quite rightly. So it's only correct that he should 'tour the new record' etc. I acknowledge that he is not the Morrissey of 1987 onwards, not least of all he is much older. But I listened to BWD for the first time in some time over the weekend and the hairs stood up on the back of my neck. I always have said that in the 5 albums allowed on my desert island, V&I would be the first one in te case...but I'm not so sure. On the basis that my live music experience would then be over, I wonder if having both Moz and the live sound would be better? BWD is MAGNIFICENT. But it left me lamenting the fact that never again do I feel I will see Morrissey, and more importantly his band, play like that again. And I have seen it, and I miss it. It's not just the setlist thing, it's the WAY they play. Alain and Boz on twin duelling guitars was unbelievable. There was bite and fervour, anger and excitemtn. They played FAST but not too fast. Songs came alive on stage, the energy was palpable. I'm afraid I rather see today's M and Band as a Morrissey tribute band. Proficiently getting through the numbers without bringing that passion, energy and intangible element to what it means to be swept along at a gig. The setlist thing IS an issue for me. New record? Fine, 'justified'. Stuff from YATQ, ROTT, understandable. But listen to BWD and you almost wonder how he can bear NOT to play stuff from BD, from YA etc. I know he DOES occasionally drop in an old tune or two (Disappointed in the last few years, Playboy etc) but he seems to have turned his back on the rockabilly glory that is Certain People I know, Glamorous Glue etc. I guess it might be a question of his 50 year old voice struggling to cope with some of that stuff - completely reasonable if the case. I don't actually like November...particularly. But I could listen to the BWD version all day, it is STUNNING. Power, power, power. And when they strike up WHIWOFBS as the closer...OMG. I'm one of those whingers who feel strongly that Smiths songs really have no place in his live armoury any more. That was a different band. I know it's unreasonable to expect him to be like he was so long ago, but I'm just sad that I'll never again get the excitement that I did at Aston Villa, at Battersea. Satan rejected my soul? I heard it once, it was incredible. I guess I should just count myself lucky. I know it's all down to taste. I guess what I'm trying to say is how frustrating it is that M doesn't seem to hear what I hear in some of his back catalogue, or he would want to play those magnificent songs as often as he could.

Discuss

love
Ben


i personally think that, although i agree that beethoven is a great album, the best live stuff is the hollywood bowl cd. i think mikey made a massive difference and those songs stand out to me.

[singmetosleep]

oh, and matt walker is incredible. i honestly think he is the best drummer morrissey has worked with.

[Raphael Lambach]

BWD is a great album from great period, however almost everything that was released after this album is as wonderful as it. I turn the music up when BWD is playing.

[jamescagney]

oh, and matt walker is incredible. i honestly think he is the best drummer morrissey has worked with.

I love Matt's drumming style too. Plus, he has a long and impressive resume of many years of drumming for various well-known bands. He's fairly established and successful as a career drummer.

[Viva Tom]

oh, and matt walker is incredible. i honestly think he is the best drummer morrissey has worked with.

Agreed. As I'm sure most of your would disagree, I think Jesse is a better performer than Alain. But recording artist? maybe.

[Gregor Samsa]

Oh please stop. I am dying.
Alain is and will probably always be Mozzer's best guitarist since Johnny, both on stage and in the studio. Not to mention at "the writing desk".
Jesse is more or less talentless, on stage or off.
"The Walker Brothers" are the most foul rhythm-section he's ever worked with. Together with Jesse they form a trio of beauty-destroyers.

Okay, I'm being quite harsh here. But still. I speak the truth.

[Girl-with-the-Thorn]

I can't really comment on the live aspect of it, seeing as my only live Morrissey experience so far has been 5 minutes of song and youtube videos, so I'll skip over that part. :o I am also not really clued up about the actual musical side of things, so again I can't comment on which collaborators I think are better.

However, I do have an idea about why opinions of Morrissey's solo albums varies so widely among fans. Obviously there are many reasons, but this could contribute to it:

I think a lot of it has to do with how and when you've experienced Morrissey as an evolving artist. For example, I've only been aware of his music (both Smiths and solo, although the discoveries were a few months apart) since about a year ago. When I became a proper fan of his solo work, Years Of Refusal had just come out- therefore, it's become quite sentimentally important to me and I'm a very strong defendant of both YOR (which is actually my favourite right now) and the last few records. It just feels more... now to me, because it's the only way I've actually experienced Morrissey as a current artist.

Of course this far from the only reason for preferences- people like different lyrical and musical styles and the 'image' of Morrissey through the ages for various reasons, and that obviously makes a contribution. Still, I do think that sentimental value and the time they started listening to him are also quite significant in many people's choice of their 'favourite albums'.

Or am I just talking rubbish?